| --- Log opened Fri Oct 24 00:00:10 2014 | ||
| --- Day changed Fri Oct 24 2014 | ||
| -!- atgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- Grishnakh [~grishnakh@dsl-espbrasgw1-50dfb6-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- myeagleflies [~myeaglefl@unaffiliated/myeagleflies] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- JohnnyBitcoin [~Johnny@ool-4352401e.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- Starsoccer [~starsocce@unaffiliated/starsoccer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- altoz [~altoz@cpe-24-55-50-180.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- hollandais [~irenacob@li629-190.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- Anduck [~anduck@unaffiliated/anduck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- LarsLarsen [~lars@50.161.197.33] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- Dyaheon [~dya@83.25.196.88.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- pigeons [~pigeons@titan.sysevolve.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| -!- firepacket [~admin@firepacket.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| justanot1eruser | Taek: your thesis works if you add "we assume the miner doesn't care about network health, just block rewards at the echange rate at the moment" | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| justanot1eruser | and it still works if you remove the two assumptions you have listed | 00:00 |
| -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Starsoccer | 00:00 | |
| justanot1eruser | I agree that an exponential decay is bad | 00:01 |
| justanot1eruser | uniform between the 100 blocks seems like it would work the best | 00:01 |
| Taek | *I was talking about a different decay | 00:03 |
| Taek | I think that a pool spitting out 33% of its contents seems to be incetive-safe | 00:03 |
| justanot1eruser | what, so they get 67% of the reward? | 00:04 |
| Taek | Each fee is added to a pool, which is the same pool across all blocks. That pool pays out 33% of its contents as a miner fee each block. | 00:05 |
| Taek | So if block 1 has 1 coin of fees, reward #1 is .33. If block 2 has 1 coin, reward #2 is (1.66)(.33) = .549 | 00:08 |
| justanot1eruser | so you're saying they spit out a 67% fee | 00:09 |
| Taek | The fee pool gets 67% of the new fees, and gives miners 33% of the new fees plus some of the leftover fees from earlier blocks. | 00:11 |
| -!- jaekwon [~Adium@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@33.Red-79-158-209.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- erizo [~hellz@li59-64.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- sl01_ [~sl01@li431-44.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- dansmith_ [~dansmith@178-33-115-54.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- Fistful_of_coins [~o3u@162.243.79.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- weex_ [~weex@99-6-135-18.lightspeed.snmtca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- asoltys [~adam@li92-10.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- [Derek] [~me@unaffiliated/derek/x-8562683] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- Iriez [wario@distribution.xbins.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:16 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: Starsoccer | 00:16 | |
| -!- jedunnigan [~jedunniga@us1x.mullvad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:17 | |
| -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: sl01_, firepacket, [Derek], dansmith_, asoltys, pigeons, Fistful_of_coins, erizo, Iriez, altoz, (+16 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) | 00:29 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2604:5500:13:5fc:2878:8444:ef1e:e029] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 00:31 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:d13:7e45:eff8:3311] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:31 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: firepacket, dgenr8, Dyaheon, hollandais, altoz, JohnnyBitcoin, myeagleflies, atgreen, jaekwon, zwischenzug (+9 more) | 00:32 | |
| -!- lnovy [~lnovy@2002:4d57:f055::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 00:35 | |
| -!- zz_lnovy [~lnovy@2002:4d57:f055::1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:36 | |
| -!- zz_lnovy is now known as lnovy | 00:36 | |
| -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: hollandais, altoz, atgreen, JohnnyBitcoin, Dyaheon, firepacket, myeagleflies, dgenr8 | 00:36 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:37 | |
| -!- Grishnakh [~grishnakh@dsl-espbrasgw1-50dfb6-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:37 | |
| -!- Anduck [~anduck@unaffiliated/anduck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:37 | |
| -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:37 | |
| -!- LarsLarsen [~lars@50.161.197.33] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:37 | |
| -!- pigeons [~pigeons@titan.sysevolve.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:37 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: atgreen, myeagleflies, JohnnyBitcoin, altoz, hollandais, Dyaheon, dgenr8, firepacket | 00:40 | |
| -!- pen [~linker@113.161.87.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 00:40 | |
| -!- Starsoccer [~starsocce@unaffiliated/starsoccer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:50 | |
| -!- vfor [~Adium@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:53 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:53 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 00:54 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:55 | |
| -!- vfor [~Adium@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 00:58 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 00:58 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:15 | |
| -!- lmatteis [~lmatteis@calixto.redi.uniroma1.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:17 | |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 01:19 | |
| -!- OX3 [~OX3@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:30 | |
| Emcy | http://arxiv.org/abs/1410.6079 | 01:31 |
| Emcy | is suppose its likely you already know about this | 01:31 |
| nsh | looks like good work. problems were known in the abstract but not the specifics of reputation system poisoning etc. i think | 01:33 |
| Emcy | is there a solution | 01:34 |
| -!- OX3 [~OX3@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:34 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:34 | |
| nsh | well, it's murky i think. most of the time the problem is people having a wrong sense of what they are achieving and what they are paying for it by using tor | 01:35 |
| nsh | you could wrap bitcoin traffic in some crypto for integrity but that requires something to unwrap it on the other side, so you may as well be using a vpn | 01:36 |
| -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:37 | |
| nsh | making the reputation system robust against network-level adversaries feels like it wouldn't really be possible in the general case | 01:37 |
| nsh | but it makes a strong case for the benefits of increased anonymity. the attacks become less useful if you can't target them effectively | 01:39 |
| -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:42 | |
| -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 01:42 | |
| -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has quit [Client Quit] | 01:42 | |
| -!- lmatteis [~lmatteis@calixto.redi.uniroma1.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] | 01:43 | |
| -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:43 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 01:47 | |
| -!- lmatteis [~lmatteis@calixto.redi.uniroma1.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:48 | |
| wumpus | "see Appendix A for the list of these Bitcoin onion addresses). This results in (1) a very small probability for a client to choose a peer available as a hidden service" ... this chance will be larger in 0.10.x, because the client includes a list of onion fixed seeds | 01:48 |
| wumpus | also you can tell your client to only use onions w/ onlynet=tor | 01:49 |
| wumpus | that doesn't make it impossible that someone DoSes all the onion peers, of course, but avoids the exit-node specific attacks | 01:50 |
| nsh | there are onion seeds hardcoded into 0.10.x? | 01:51 |
| wumpus | yes | 01:52 |
| nsh | hmm | 01:52 |
| wumpus | in addition to the ipv4 seeds that already in there (the only thing missing is ipv6 seeds) | 01:52 |
| * nsh nods | 01:52 | |
| wumpus | but we should certainly encourage more people to run connectable onion peers, that will reduce the feasibility of dosing them all | 01:53 |
| -!- anton0001 [~anton000@121.54.44.94] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:53 | |
| -!- vfor [~Adium@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:54 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:54 | |
| -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@122.Red-88-1-121.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:55 | |
| nsh | right | 01:55 |
| wumpus | (not that I've seen such an attack actually happen yet, as with SSL mitm attacks this is a kind of attack that leaves a lot of evidence) | 01:56 |
| -!- anton000 [~anton000@unaffiliated/anton000] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 01:56 | |
| -!- anton0001 is now known as anton000 | 01:57 | |
| -!- anton000 [~anton000@121.54.44.94] has quit [Changing host] | 01:57 | |
| -!- anton000 [~anton000@unaffiliated/anton000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:57 | |
| wumpus | not only because of this attack, but for isolation attacks in general, we really need a way to detect the case and warn the user about it | 01:58 |
| -!- vfor [~Adium@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 01:58 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 01:59 | |
| nsh | how do you detect isolation? non-isolation can generally be simulated | 01:59 |
| wumpus | (this is not really something now, it has been discussed before a few times) | 01:59 |
| wumpus | nsh: yes, but you can make assumptions, given that your attacker doesn't have as much hashpower as the entire network | 02:01 |
| nsh | right | 02:02 |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@158pc208.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:06 | |
| -!- wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:14 | |
| -!- wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:16 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:d13:7e45:eff8:3311] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 02:17 | |
| -!- anton0001 [~anton000@121.54.44.94] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:17 | |
| -!- Guest14594 [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:19 | |
| -!- anton000 [~anton000@unaffiliated/anton000] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 02:20 | |
| -!- OX3 [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:20 | |
| -!- anton0001 [~anton000@121.54.44.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 02:21 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Quit: fanquake] | 02:27 | |
| -!- K1773R_ [~K1773R@unaffiliated/k1773r] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:43 | |
| -!- K1773R [~K1773R@unaffiliated/k1773r] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 02:45 | |
| -!- K1773R_ is now known as K1773R | 02:45 | |
| -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.73.205] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:46 | |
| -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.73.205] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 02:46 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@p54834A35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:52 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@p54834A35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] | 02:52 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:52 | |
| -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Starduster, go1111111, stonecoldpat, forrestv, OX3, Nightwolf | 02:53 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: OX3, Starduster, Nightwolf, stonecoldpat, forrestv, go1111111 | 02:53 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:55 | |
| -!- vfor [~Adium@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:55 | |
| -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: hollandais, altoz, atgreen, wumpus, JohnnyBitcoin, Dyaheon, firepacket, myeagleflies, dgenr8 | 02:55 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 02:55 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: wumpus, atgreen, myeagleflies, JohnnyBitcoin, altoz, hollandais, Dyaheon, dgenr8, firepacket | 02:56 | |
| -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: zibbo_, Eliel, wallet42, kgk, fluffypony, Hunger--, tromp, berndj, SomeoneWeird, napedia, (+1 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) | 02:58 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: wallet42, kgk, napedia, SomeoneWeird, berndj, tromp, Hunger--, zibbo_, Eliel, mr_burdell (+1 more) | 02:59 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 02:59 | |
| -!- vfor [~Adium@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 03:00 | |
| -!- nessence [~alexl@89.246.69.218] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:01 | |
| -!- spiftheninja [~miner@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] | 03:09 | |
| -!- torsthaldo [~torsthald@unaffiliated/torsthaldo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:13 | |
| -!- OX3__ [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:21 | |
| -!- wiretapped [~wiretappe@gateway/tor-sasl/wiretapped] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:21 | |
| -!- OX3 [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 03:24 | |
| -!- Iriez is now known as _Iriez | 03:24 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 03:25 | |
| -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:26 | |
| -!- tjopper [~Jop@dhcp-077-249-237-229.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:27 | |
| -!- Graftec [~Graftec@gateway/tor-sasl/graftec] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:28 | |
| -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@106-68-157-235.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:30 | |
| -!- OX3__ [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | 03:32 | |
| -!- OX3 [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:33 | |
| -!- vfor [~Adium@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:37 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:38 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:40 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:45 | |
| -!- Adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:46 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:53 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:55 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:58 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:00 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:02 | |
| -!- rdponticelli [~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/rdponticelli] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:07 | |
| -!- c0rw|sleep is now known as c0rw1n | 04:10 | |
| -!- rdponticelli [~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/rdponticelli] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:12 | |
| -!- rdponticelli [~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/rdponticelli] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:16 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:23 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:42 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:49 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 04:50 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:50 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:52 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 04:55 | |
| -!- nuke__ is now known as nuke1989 | 04:59 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:06 | |
| -!- _Iriez is now known as Iriez | 05:08 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:09 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:13 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:13 | |
| -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:14 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:14 | |
| -!- sickpig [~sickpig@85-18-94-64.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:18 | |
| -!- c0rw1n_ [~c0rw1n@167.84-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:19 | |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@167.84-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 05:19 | |
| -!- Greed [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has quit [Quit: Classic.] | 05:19 | |
| -!- Greed [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:21 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~Pavel@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 05:25 | |
| -!- c0rw1n_ is now known as c0rw1n | 05:26 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:27 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 05:27 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:27 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:29 | |
| -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 05:29 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f055237032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] | 05:30 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:31 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:37 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:39 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:40 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:41 | |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-221-39.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:42 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:42 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:44 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:45 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 05:45 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:45 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:47 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 05:48 | |
| -!- rfreeman_w [~rfreeman@gateway/tor-sasl/rfreemanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:48 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:48 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:50 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:51 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:52 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:53 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:55 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:57 | |
| -!- vfor [~Adium@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 05:57 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:59 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:59 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 06:01 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:02 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 06:02 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:02 | |
| -!- profreid [~profreid@130.233.15.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 06:04 | |
| -!- gandalf [4b4ae262@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.74.226.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 06:05 | |
| -!- crowex_ [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:05 | |
| -!- SDCDev is now known as shield___ | 06:08 | |
| -!- shield___ is now known as shield____ | 06:08 | |
| -!- shield____ is now known as shield_____ | 06:08 | |
| -!- shield_____ is now known as _shield | 06:08 | |
| -!- _shield is now known as Rynomster | 06:08 | |
| -!- crowex_ [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:12 | |
| -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae047235.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:14 | |
| -!- instagibbs [6c1c1eb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.28.30.185] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:18 | |
| instagibbs | kanzure: I *love* that short story. reading irc logs I thought the same thing before clicking your link | 06:18 |
| -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:21 | |
| -!- instagibbs [6c1c1eb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.28.30.185] has quit [Client Quit] | 06:21 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:24 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 06:24 | |
| -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 06:31 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:37 | |
| -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:39 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:40 | |
| -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 06:43 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:52 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@2601:e:8700:347:c4ab:1a82:dd0:ae60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:52 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Client Quit] | 06:56 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:58 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 07:02 | |
| -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: BigBitz, Apocalyptic | 07:04 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: BigBitz | 07:04 | |
| -!- Apocalyptic [~Apocalypt@unaffiliated/apocalyptic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:06 | |
| -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 07:07 | |
| -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:16 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:17 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:18 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-67-190-86-140.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:19 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:29 | |
| -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:29 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-67-190-86-140.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 07:45 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:47 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 07:47 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:47 | |
| -!- koshii [~0@node-wg8.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:49 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:51 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:52 | |
| -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@122.Red-88-1-121.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:52 | |
| -!- pen [~linker@42.118.241.21] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:58 | |
| -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:59 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:05 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 08:09 | |
| -!- OP_NULL [~OP_NULL@107.170.218.231] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:15 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 08:27 | |
| OP_NULL | wumpus: nsh: be very careful making assumptions about the utility of onion routed peers. with IPv4 there's an inherent cost in buying many IP addresses in different /32. there's not in making multiple onion addresses. are more "peers" valuable if they are sybils? | 08:27 |
| -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@122.Red-88-1-121.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:27 | |
| -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has quit [Quit: KingCoin] | 08:27 | |
| nsh | right | 08:27 |
| wumpus | OP_NULL: sure, the only advantage there is that there is no exit node that can mitm and that the onion address authenticates the node, but it certainly doesn't avoid sybil attacks | 08:29 |
| -!- Starduster [~quest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 08:29 | |
| -!- Starduster [~quest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:30 | |
| jgarzik | In fact, making multiple onion addresses approaches a necessary defense mechanism | 08:33 |
| jgarzik | If you want to run a professional site, public .onions are easy and obvious targets. You have clear incentives to create a private address for your clients. | 08:33 |
| jgarzik | Yet, "a" private address is also poor, and might be leaked. Therefore, you want an onion for each user... | 08:33 |
| wumpus | indeed, they're like bitcoin addresses in that regard :) | 08:34 |
| jgarzik | :) | 08:34 |
| jgarzik | So much about Tor sucks, sigh. | 08:34 |
| jgarzik | and yet, it sucks less than freenet and alternatives | 08:34 |
| kanzure | clearly we should all switch to pipenet? | 08:35 |
| wumpus | I hear a lot about I2P, but have never tried it | 08:35 |
| OP_NULL | jgarzik: that’s a fairly undesirable property. it’s costless (outside of modifying the node) for somebody to run infinite onion addresses nodes and saturate the addr (and fixed seed node entries) with ones which are their own. easy partitioning. | 08:35 |
| jgarzik | Tor directory servers are another vulnerability point, and are central to any multi-.onion scheme | 08:36 |
| wumpus | it would be a really obvious and visible attack, though | 08:36 |
| OP_NULL | would it? can you tell me that all of the ones in use today aren't the same? | 08:37 |
| wumpus | yes, because I run a few myself and know a few others | 08:37 |
| * jgarzik needs to turn on Tor, on my cloudatcost bitcoin node | 08:38 | |
| OP_NULL | wumpus: you know what I was getting at. | 08:41 |
| jgarzik | wumpus is right. It Would Be Noticed. | 08:46 |
| helo | i'm satisfied knowing the .onion addresses of a few different ~trustworthy people | 08:46 |
| jgarzik | There's theory and then there's practice... in practice humans run nodes and care that the network works, and monitor tons of network health metrics. | 08:46 |
| helo | it would be obvious if someone was paying attention... what exactly would it look like, and are there any nodes looking out for it? | 08:47 |
| jgarzik | can't just look at a system in isolation, on paper | 08:47 |
| -!- gloriusA_ [~gloriusag@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:49 | |
| -!- vfor1 [~Adium@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:50 | |
| OP_NULL | jgarzik: even if people were that attentive, what would happen once noticed? | 08:52 |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229086033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 08:52 | |
| -!- sickpig [~sickpig@85-18-94-64.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] | 08:53 | |
| jgarzik | connectivity suffers, directory servers note bucket oddities, things stop working, Tor becomes less useful -> DoS | 08:53 |
| hearn | helo: if you're talking about the "ban all the exits except the evil ones" attack i expect alon and chris would notice | 08:54 |
| OP_NULL | hearn: we're talking about onion sybil peers, not exiting connections. | 08:54 |
| helo | i suppose it would look like a spam of "inputs already spent" and stale blocks | 08:55 |
| helo | from the sybil-attempting peers | 08:55 |
| -!- Greed [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 08:56 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~Pavel@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:57 | |
| -!- Greed [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:57 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 08:58 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:58 | |
| -!- wiretapped [~wiretappe@gateway/tor-sasl/wiretapped] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:00 | |
| -!- wiretapped [~wiretappe@gateway/tor-sasl/wiretapped] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:00 | |
| -!- mortale [~mortale@gateway/tor-sasl/mortale] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:00 | |
| -!- zoltron5 [~zoltron5@c-69-136-189-159.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 09:00 | |
| -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 09:01 | |
| -!- go1111111 [~go@162.244.138.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 09:01 | |
| -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 09:01 | |
| -!- Max_H3adr00m [~MaxHeadro@c-67-162-77-186.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 09:01 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 09:01 | |
| -!- mmozeiko [~mmozeiko@c-50-184-215-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 09:01 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:02 | |
| -!- Max_H3adr00m [~MaxHeadro@c-67-162-77-186.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:02 | |
| -!- mmozeiko [~mmozeiko@c-50-184-215-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:03 | |
| OP_NULL | helo: only if partitioning was attempted, and only if you were connected to at least one non-sybil peer. it’s easy for the attacker to tell if they've successfully partitioned a node because the peer would stop relaying new blocks and transactions that weren't visible on the isolated shard. | 09:03 |
| -!- zoltron5 [~zoltron5@c-69-136-189-159.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:03 | |
| -!- mortale [~mortale@gateway/tor-sasl/mortale] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:03 | |
| -!- go1111111 [~go@162.244.138.51] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:04 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@c-24-98-97-147.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:04 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@c-24-98-97-147.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] | 09:04 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:04 | |
| -!- ebfull [~ebfull@c-76-120-40-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 09:04 | |
| -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:05 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~Pavel@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 09:06 | |
| -!- OP_NULL [~OP_NULL@107.170.218.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 09:18 | |
| -!- vdo [~vdo@unaffiliated/vdo] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] | 09:19 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 09:20 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:25 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:27 | |
| -!- lmatteis [~lmatteis@calixto.redi.uniroma1.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 09:27 | |
| -!- lmatteis [~lmatteis@calixto.redi.uniroma1.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:28 | |
| -!- lmatteis [~lmatteis@calixto.redi.uniroma1.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 09:29 | |
| -!- lmatteis [~lmatteis@151.100.179.14] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:33 | |
| -!- lmatteis [~lmatteis@151.100.179.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 09:34 | |
| -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:35 | |
| -!- woah_ [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:37 | |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] howdy yall | 09:42 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] is andytoshi or gmaxwell on? | 09:42 |
| -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 09:44 | |
| sipa | maybe! | 09:45 |
| pigeons | what's MRL | 09:48 |
| rfreeman_w | surae, gmaxwell is here. what is MRL anyway | 09:48 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] Monero Research Lab | 09:48 |
| rfreeman_w | oh. I should had known that lol | 09:48 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] yep :D | 09:48 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] well, I'm thinking about zero-knowledge proofs | 09:48 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] and I was hoping someone who had already been thinking about them at least once upon a time could comment on their size/speed and feasibility in cryptocurrencies. | 09:49 |
| amiller | what kind of zero knowledge proofs | 09:49 |
| amiller | there are a ton of approaches depending on what kind of statements you want to proof | 09:49 |
| rfreeman_w | I guess zerocoin? | 09:50 |
| nsh | SNARKs are approaching practical usability. there's a library and you can make... things... i think | 09:51 |
| nsh | but a lot of work is needed still | 09:51 |
| nsh | -- | 09:52 |
| nsh | The ppzkSNARK supports proving/verifying membership in a specific NP-complete language: R1CS (rank-1 constraint systems). An instance of the language is specified by a set of equations over a prime field F, and each equation looks like: < A, (1,X) > * < B , (1,X) > = < C, (1,X) > where A,B,C are vectors over F, and X is a vector of variables. | 09:52 |
| nsh | -- https://github.com/scipr-lab/libsnark | 09:52 |
| nsh | so technically, you can make |o/ All The Things, but g'luck with that | 09:52 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] right, that's kinda where my head was at: they are neat and stuff, but impractical right now | 09:54 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] maybe that will change in a few years. | 09:55 |
| nsh | it'll change in a certain number of workhours :) | 09:55 |
| nsh | though faster hardware will help too | 09:56 |
| kanzure | http://mpclounge.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/publicly-auditable-secure-multiparty-computation/ | 10:01 |
| kanzure | http://mpclounge.wordpress.com/2014/09/08/faster-maliciously-secure-two-party-computation-using-the-gpu/ | 10:01 |
| nsh | hmmm | 10:03 |
| @gwillen | surae: I am not terribly wizardly, but my understanding is that the biggest practical problem with SNARKs is not encoding the problems into the snark language, but rather the insane slowdown in performing the execution-and-proof | 10:05 |
| @gwillen | insane being like, a billion to one or something | 10:05 |
| sipa | sounds accurate | 10:05 |
| sipa | + the efficient ones need a trusted setup, iirc? | 10:05 |
| sipa | (i am really just mirroring things i've heard from gmaxwell here) | 10:06 |
| @gwillen | oh, I didn't even realize that was a tradeoff | 10:06 |
| * gwillen nods | 10:06 | |
| adam3us | yes and the bleeding edge crypto assumptions that they need is a risk in the sense that if the crypto breaks you might lose your money | 10:06 |
| -!- andytoshi [3288ff06@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.136.255.6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:06 | |
| nsh | on the other hand, the view from the moon is breathtaking | 10:07 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/ | 10:08 |
| -!- MoALTz [~no@user-164-127-68-184.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:11 | |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] gwillin thanks, i had heard of a 98%+ improvement in efficiency for zerocash over the original zerocoin protocol, but it had a trusted setup | 10:16 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:16 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:17 | |
| nsh | dunno what's happening with zerocash | 10:18 |
| adam3us | zerocash is conservative crypto, so its main problems are: trusted setup (an RSA key where the private key must be deleted by someone); that the coins are large (20-40kB with reasonable security parameters); and that there is only one denomination | 10:18 |
| adam3us | sorry s/zerocash/zerocoin/ ^^ | 10:18 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] i was under the impression that zerocoin got their sizes down to 1kb and speeds down to 6ms, but again requiring a trusted setup | 10:19 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] what do you mean by conservative crypto, though? | 10:19 |
| nsh | no media activity or website updates since may, it seems from a glance at http://zerocash-project.org/talks_and_media | 10:20 |
| tacotime | nsh: it's an academic lab, they probably ran out of grants and moved on to something else i'd guess | 10:21 |
| * nsh smiles | 10:21 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 10:21 | |
| adam3us | surae: not that i heard. paper? | 10:26 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] the original zerocash paper... sec | 10:26 |
| adam3us | surea: what i mean is zerocoin relies on strong RSA assumption (benaloh RSA accumulators) and discrete log, and cut-and-choose ie those are all things that everyone is already relying on as being secure | 10:27 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] not that i heard. paper? <--- what hadn't you heard, then? | 10:28 |
| adam3us | snarks with weil pairing and other assumptions on top are new assumptions. maybe they'll get broken | 10:29 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:30 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:31 | |
| -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:33 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:35 | |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] ooooh | 10:35 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] i misunderstood you earlier I think. | 10:36 |
| adam3us | surae: yeah you said 6ms/1KB i dont think zerocoin got that low. but i mistyped zerocash/zerocoin at one point above | 10:36 |
| adam3us | surae: other than the trusted setup (RSA private key) I am quite confident in the security assumptions of the zerocoin protocol. i cant say the same for zerocash. maybe we wont be able to say the same for snarks for 10-20 years unless someone finds a way to do it with more conservative assumptions even if its slower. | 10:37 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] yeah, zerocoin never got that low, zerocash did http://zerocash-project.org/media/pdf/zerocash-extended-20140518.pdf | 10:38 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] i see what you are saying then | 10:39 |
| adam3us | surae: and thats disappointing because SNARKs have very useful properties for cryptocurrency. eg particularly if you can have the snark program be validation of a sidechain, that is an amazing implication: that you can provide a compact proof without the data just the hash of the data, that all of the inputs added up to outputs since dawn. | 10:39 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] thanks adam3us | 10:39 |
| @gwillen | adam3us: I have always had the feeling that we ought to be able to find SOME reasonable way to do trusted setup | 10:39 |
| adam3us | surae: even bitcoin main itself could potentially assure a SPV client and elevate its security to full node equivalent with tiny bandwidth requirements | 10:39 |
| @gwillen | if you do n-way multiparty computation with enough mutually-untrusting parties... you do only have to do it once, it's okay if it's very slow. | 10:40 |
| -!- iambernie [~bernie@82-169-230-87.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:40 | |
| -!- andytoshi [3288ff06@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.136.255.6] has quit [Changing host] | 10:40 | |
| -!- andytoshi [3288ff06@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:41 | |
| -!- andytoshi [3288ff06@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Changing host] | 10:41 | |
| -!- andytoshi [3288ff06@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.136.255.6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:41 | |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] i wonder if there's a way for enough mutually untrusting parties to come to a consensus about trusting a setup. that'd be nice. but, again, we're talking holy grails of cryptocurrencies | 10:41 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] i suppose you could have some initial chain of proof-of-work arguments. everyone across the network proposes a different setup, everyone starts hashing, eventually someone will win, and then from that point on you have a "trusted" setup that was agreed upon by the proof-of-work chain | 10:42 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] is that what you mean by "you only have to do it once?" | 10:43 |
| andytoshi | surae: the trusted setup party absolutely needs to be identifiable | 10:43 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] well that's that, then. :\ | 10:44 |
| -!- jedunnigan [~jedunniga@us2x.mullvad.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:44 | |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] allright, so, I'm leaving for a few days and I want to get some reading done about two topics: 1) sidechains and 2) the current state of NIZK usage in the cryptocurrency context. anyone have a crucial reading list? andytoshi? adam3us? | 10:47 |
| nsh | surae: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ | 10:48 |
| amiller | zerocoin doesn't need snarks, just RSA assumptoin | 10:48 |
| amiller | most of what's possible with SNARKs in zerocash you could also do with RSA accumulators and standard zero knowledge, the main disadvantage is the proofs are way larger. | 10:48 |
| amiller | (scrolling up this exactly duplicates what adam said but w/e :) | 10:48 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] nsh perfect, exactly what i was looking for | 10:49 |
| nsh | thank kanzure :) | 10:49 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] all praise to kanzure, then. :D I'll be back later, but I prefer lurking in this channel so I don't reveal my own ignorance too often | 10:50 |
| andytoshi | surae: the sidechains wp is http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf | 10:50 |
| andytoshi | surae: don't think there is anything else written up, i recall in the days before the release people would ask and we had no good links for them ... that is a superset of the mailing list posts that we used to reply with | 10:51 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] ha | 10:52 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] danke | 10:52 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:58 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:59 | |
| -!- null_radix [Elite7851@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-nnzwxgstyozjbncl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:01 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 11:04 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@158pc208.sshunet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 11:07 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:08 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 11:08 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:08 | |
| -!- AlphaBar [~textual@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:11 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:12 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:13 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:13 | |
| -!- AlphaBar [~textual@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 11:15 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 11:18 | |
| -!- AlphaBar [~textual@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:20 | |
| -!- AlphaBar [~textual@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 11:20 | |
| -!- AlphaBar [~textual@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:21 | |
| -!- AlphaBar is now known as AlphaBar123 | 11:21 | |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~textual@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 11:21 | |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:22 | |
| -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@d40a6497.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:25 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 11:25 | |
| -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 11:35 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:37 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@158pc208.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:44 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 11:46 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:49 | |
| -!- andytoshi [3288ff06@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.136.255.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 11:50 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 11:50 | |
| -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has quit [Quit: KingCoin] | 11:59 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:02 | |
| -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:07 | |
| -!- Aquent1 [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:16 | |
| amiller | this is my new eprint http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/857 Pseudonymous Secure Computation from Time-Lock Puzzles | 12:18 |
| amiller | it's a formal modeling sort of thing. it's not directly about bitcoin, but sort of taking a step back from bitcoin and looking at what's possible with bitcoinlike assumptions (about resources rather than identities) | 12:18 |
| amiller | we make some stronger assumptions than usual in bitcoin (but normal for crypto world) like that there are a fixed set of n parties and they have the same hashpower | 12:20 |
| amiller | one big difference from bitcoin is that we are mainly using sequential proofs of work, that aren't "progress-free" | 12:21 |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 12:22 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:23 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 12:23 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:23 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 12:23 | |
| amiller | the main result is a protocol that's like the "Dolev-Strong Byzantine Agreement" protocol but uses proof of work rather than assuming there's a preestablished pki | 12:23 |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:24 | |
| amiller | and it's a really general result in the sense that once you have this, you can basically bootstrap a pki by assigning everyone a pseudonym based on their proofs-of-work and you can then do pseudonymous versions of all the other sorts of things cryptographers know how to do assuming you start with a PKI, like secure multiparty computation on arbitrary circuits | 12:24 |
| amiller | my favorite part is probably the observation that all the definitions used in modern cryptography implicitly have some kind of "real name" assumption, and that has to be relaxed if you want to prove things in a resource-based rather than identity-based world. | 12:26 |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 12:30 | |
| -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 12:33 | |
| -!- woah_ [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 12:33 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.83.246.240] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] | 12:37 | |
| -!- d4de^^ [~d4de@197.160.62.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 12:38 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.83.246.240] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:39 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.83.246.240] has quit [Excess Flood] | 12:39 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.83.246.240] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:39 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.83.246.240] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] | 12:49 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.83.246.240] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:50 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.83.246.240] has quit [Excess Flood] | 12:50 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.83.246.240] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:51 | |
| nsh | amiller! | 12:53 |
| nsh | sorry, i just got reflexively excited by the phrase "time-lock puzzles" because i'm sad | 12:53 |
| nsh | when you say "assign everyone a pseudonym based on their proofs-of-work" what does that mean. are proofs-of-work not fungible? are they somehow unique? | 12:55 |
| * nsh reads the paper | 12:58 | |
| justanotheruser | Taek: The more blocks the fee is distributed between, the more hash power you need to make a reorg profitable given how the number of transactions vary between the day. There are > 50% more blocks at the peak of the day than there are at the trough. | 12:59 |
| justanotheruser | oops s/blocks/mb | 12:59 |
| kanzure | amiller: interesting that cryptography has that assumption about names or identities. often they don't care who the adversary is, just that there is one.. right? | 13:00 |
| justanotheruser | I do like that this idea is a softfork though. | 13:01 |
| -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:08 | |
| -!- woah_ [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:08 | |
| nsh | .wik homonymous networks | 13:18 |
| yoleaux | "AIBO (Artificial Intelligence Robot, homonymous with aibō (相棒?), "pal" or "partner" in Japanese) is an iconic series of robotic pets designed and manufactured by Sony. Sony announced a prototype robot in mid-1998. The first consumer model was introduced on May 11, 1999. New models were released every year until 2005." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIBO | 13:18 |
| nsh | heh | 13:18 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:22 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:23 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:24 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 13:31 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:31 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@c-73-168-26-243.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:38 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@c-73-168-26-243.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] | 13:38 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:38 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 13:47 | |
| -!- Adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:48 | |
| -!- Adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:49 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 13:53 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:59 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@158pc208.sshunet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 14:01 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~Pavel@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:13 | |
| -!- gloriusA_ [~gloriusag@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:15 | |
| -!- vfor1 [~Adium@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 14:15 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:19 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:22 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 14:22 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:22 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:29 | |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@206.sub-70-197-1.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:30 | |
| -!- crowex [~crowex@host-78-147-106-214.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:30 | |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@206.sub-70-197-1.myvzw.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 14:31 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 14:33 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-67-190-86-140.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:33 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 14:34 | |
| -!- OX3 [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 14:34 | |
| -!- spiftheninja [~miner@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:40 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:43 | |
| -!- coke_face [~User@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:44 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-67-190-86-140.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 14:46 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:46 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 14:47 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 14:48 | |
| -!- vfor [~Adium@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:48 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:48 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 14:52 | |
| -!- vfor [~Adium@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 14:52 | |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 14:53 | |
| -!- erizo [~hellz@li59-64.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 14:53 | |
| -!- erizo [~hellz@li59-64.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:54 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2604:5500:13:5fc:4856:8973:e46:6b46] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:10 | |
| -!- jedunnigan [~jedunniga@us2x.mullvad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:10 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~Pavel@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 15:14 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 15:16 | |
| -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:16 | |
| -!- jedunnigan [~jedunniga@us1x.mullvad.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:21 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:23 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:598b:558a:1842:7b21] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:26 | |
| gmaxwell | someone might want to try for a better answer here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k7tsu/what_exactly_is_a_softfork/ | 15:27 |
| gmaxwell | I am pretty much reddited out at this point. | 15:27 |
| justanotheruser | "A soft fork can occur when the disagreement is just about what types of transactions are considered valid by a peer, and therefore may or may not be broadcast to its own peers." | 15:28 |
| justanotheruser | wat | 15:28 |
| gmaxwell | yes, thats why I repeated the url here. | 15:28 |
| gmaxwell | it's reddit, the people aren't (usually) stupid, just a lot of ignorance on more subtle technical things. | 15:28 |
| gmaxwell | go forth and educate. | 15:29 |
| justanotheruser | looks like someone responded | 15:37 |
| kanzure | gmaxwell: this looks okay to me http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k7tsu/what_exactly_is_a_softfork/clixmzu | 15:37 |
| kanzure | although i'm not sure about restricting soft forks to "valid becomes invalid" and hard forks to "invalid becomes valid or broken backwards compatibility" | 15:38 |
| justanotheruser | http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k7tsu/what_exactly_is_a_softfork/clixsf4 too | 15:39 |
| gmaxwell | Yes, thats correct enough. (the details they give wrt 0.8 aren't right but whatever) | 15:39 |
| gmaxwell | yea, thats right too, though perhaps fails to explain how this can usefully be used to add new functionality... makes it sound like it only takes things away (which is strictly true, but the statue of david was created by simply taking away marble; it's an unconventional way to look a things for most people) | 15:40 |
| moa | without cold there is no heat, without darkness there is no light | 15:41 |
| justanotheruser | gmaxwell: well softforks are only to take away blocks from the set of valid blocks :P | 15:42 |
| justanotheruser | I see what you're saying though | 15:42 |
| -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Nightwolf, forrestv, kyuupichan, stonecoldpat, spiftheninja, Greed | 15:43 | |
| gmaxwell | justanotheruser: yea, it's correct. It's just that people don't immediately see how you can add powerful new functionality, by taking a 'do anything' part of the protocal and taking away all the things except the feature you want. :) may be more obvious to think that way to people who played with CSG cad systes like pov ray in their misspent youth. | 15:43 |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: Greed | 15:43 | |
| -!- Nightwolf [~Nightwolf@v22010127607453799.yourvserver.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:44 | |
| -!- Nightwolf [~Nightwolf@v22010127607453799.yourvserver.net] has quit [Changing host] | 15:44 | |
| -!- Nightwolf [~Nightwolf@unaffiliated/nightwolf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:44 | |
| nsh | hmm | 15:44 |
| nsh | how is it like CAD systems? | 15:44 |
| nsh | the parallel is lost on me | 15:44 |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: stonecoldpat | 15:44 | |
| moa | pov ray yikes | 15:45 |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:46 | |
| -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae047235.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:46 | |
| -!- forrestv [~forrestv@unaffiliated/forrestv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:47 | |
| gmaxwell | nsh: in constructive solid geometry your primitives are solids and planes (e.g. spheres, cubes, cyliners, toruses, cones) and you creat things by doing boolean operations with the shapes. (this as opposed to triangle mesh cad systems, which are much less fun) | 15:49 |
| -!- Starduster [~quest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 15:49 | |
| nsh | oh, like the method marge is taught when she learns to paint | 15:50 |
| -!- spiftheninja [~miner@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:51 | |
| nsh | -- | 15:51 |
| nsh | Now, using the Lombardo method, you learn to see everyday objects | 15:51 |
| nsh | as a simple grrouping of geometrical shapes. Heah, we see how two | 15:51 |
| nsh | concentric circles, various trapezoids, ellipses, and yes! even a rrhombus! | 15:51 |
| nsh | can create an adorable little bunny-rabbit. It's just that easy! | 15:51 |
| nsh | -- Professor Lombardo's art lecture, ``Brush with Greatness'' | 15:51 |
| nsh | -- http://www.snpp.com/episodes/7F18.html | 15:51 |
| -!- irc88 [~irc88@204.28.117.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:52 | |
| gmaxwell | seems there is a WP page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_solid_geometry | 15:53 |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@88.sub-70-197-6.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:54 | |
| nsh | in amiller's paper: | 15:54 |
| nsh | -- | 15:54 |
| nsh | Hence, regardless of the distribution of computing resources among honest participants in the Bitcoin network, puzzle solutions arrive according to a Poisson process. Miller et al. [30] point out that this property is essential to the operation of Bitcoin, since it guarantees that independent participants do not duplicate much work; | 15:54 |
| nsh | in [29], it is argued that this process is integral to Bitcoin's incentive structure, since it ensures even weak participants have a proportional chance of finding the next puzzle solution and thereby earning a reward. | 15:54 |
| amiller | gmaxwell, i want to talk about your 2 party computation protocol and why it's 2^n when yao + cut&choose is only k*n or so | 15:54 |
| nsh | -- is this argued, or just progress-freeness? or are they equivalent? | 15:54 |
| nsh | can you have a progress-free process where successes are not poisson distributed? | 15:55 |
| amiller | nsh, it's not argued (not that well anyway) just stated | 15:55 |
| * nsh nods | 15:55 | |
| amiller | the definition of progress free implies poisson | 15:55 |
| nsh | right, thought as much | 15:55 |
| amiller | exponential distribution is *the* memoryless distribution | 15:55 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: the quadratic comes from having to commit to all the potential combination keys, but you only use a small portion of them. | 15:55 |
| amiller | exponential 2^n not just n^2? maybe i read that wrong | 15:56 |
| gmaxwell | If the commitment scheme was xor homomorpic it wouldn't need that, but getting an xor homomorphic version requires fancier crypto. | 15:56 |
| amiller | oh i did read that wrong | 15:56 |
| amiller | so, the standard yao + cut and choose doens't use any other primitives except hashes and symmetric encryption just like yors | 15:56 |
| gmaxwell | it's quadratic thats all. (plus constants, which may be kinda ugly for acceptable security) | 15:56 |
| amiller | why commit to all combination? | 15:56 |
| gmaxwell | Because it's non-interative and I use a fiat shamir. | 15:57 |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 15:59 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 16:00 | |
| amiller | yeah the cut-and-choose protocol can also be made noninteractive using fiat shamir http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-72540-4_4#page-1 | 16:00 |
| -!- OX3 [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:01 | |
| -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@c-67-169-153-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:01 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:01 | |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@88.sub-70-197-6.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 16:02 | |
| -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@c-67-169-153-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 16:02 | |
| gmaxwell | amiller: yes, I cite that paper at the bottom; it requires asymetric crypto for setting up oblivious transfer. | 16:03 |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:04 | |
| amiller | you cite a different paper using a homomorphic encryption scheme | 16:04 |
| gmaxwell | hmm! | 16:04 |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 16:04 | |
| gmaxwell | indeed it is a different paper, but it's not really homormorphic. | 16:05 |
| amiller | sorry homomorphic commitment scheme | 16:05 |
| gmaxwell | They instatiate oblivious transfer and use it to construct a xor homomorpic commitment. | 16:05 |
| nsh | is there a concise way to state how oblivious transfer enables secure computation/evaluation without additional primitives? | 16:06 |
| nsh | not at all intuitively obvious | 16:06 |
| gmaxwell | In any case, my goal was no asymetric crypto, I wanted no black boxes that joe-coder would regard as magic... just hashfunctions and statistics. | 16:07 |
| amiller | i see | 16:07 |
| amiller | nsh, oblivious transfer is "universal", with an oblivious transfer gadget alone you can implement basically the full suite of multiparty computation functinoalities | 16:07 |
| nsh | mm | 16:08 |
| nsh | oh, i think i see | 16:08 |
| -!- gloriusAgain [~gloriusag@g229087193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 16:08 | |
| gmaxwell | I've found when talking to people about ZKP getting them to accept that they're possible at all (forget succinct, or even remotely efficient) is sometimes challenging ... because random computing people just have no idea how you'd even try to build something like that. | 16:09 |
| nsh | it's just an extension of the kid's algorithm to fairly divide cake or whatever | 16:09 |
| kanzure | amiller: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/An%20efficient%20protocol%20for%20secure%20two-party%20computation%20in%20the%20presence%20of%20malicious%20adversaries.pdf | 16:09 |
| kanzure | (your springerkink link) | 16:09 |
| nsh | because you can't know which half the other kid will pick, your optimum is to split evenly | 16:09 |
| gmaxwell | or at least accept that ZKP for _general_ computation is possible. people accept narrow ZKP fine. | 16:09 |
| nsh | except now we're dealing with honest and dishonest evaluations | 16:09 |
| nsh | but it's still reliant on the inability to know which one will be chosen | 16:09 |
| amiller | okay, i'll see if anyone knows any other way of doing it with no OT, or if that's maybe optimal. it's pretty neat | 16:10 |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] | 16:11 | |
| gmaxwell | nsh: IIRC (been a while since I looked) in these things what you basically do is have one person give you encrypted logic gates, and the other person executes without knowing what they're executing (because the gates are encrypted). You use the oblivious transfer so that they can find out exactly one gate output value (and not the other), but you don't let the other party know what output value you were getting. | 16:11 |
| nsh | hmmm | 16:12 |
| gmaxwell | So at the end of the circuit you end up with the answer, but you don't know anything about how you got there (it was all encrypted) and the other guy doesn't know anything about what you executed, because he couldn't tell which gate output you were reading. | 16:12 |
| nsh | it's fascinating how this stuff converges on quantum information theory | 16:13 |
| gmaxwell | I basically took part of the structure from the paper I cited, dropped the OT and replaced it with more commitments, and made it into a NI-ZKP instead of multiparty computation. It's inefficient, but a reasonable teaching tool. (A number of people here seem to have read it and regarded NI-ZKP as less black magic after it) | 16:14 |
| nsh | which paper is this? | 16:14 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: talking about http://people.xiph.org/~greg/simple_verifyable_execution.txt | 16:15 |
| nsh | ah, ty | 16:15 |
| gmaxwell | (and the paper it cites) | 16:15 |
| gmaxwell | (which is a two-party active secure multiparty computation scheme) | 16:15 |
| gmaxwell | (which happens to sound at least superficially similar to what amiller linked to) | 16:16 |
| amiller | i guess all the 2pc protocols i know of use oblivious transfer which does require asymmetric crypto yeah and that's usually the bottleneck of them | 16:17 |
| amiller | well | 16:17 |
| amiller | i'm not sure of that nvm | 16:17 |
| gmaxwell | I looked couldn't find anything. Which surprised me, but then again, I think there may be publication pressure against something that is 'inefficient' since many 'efficient' schemes have been published. I'm sure someone (even the authors of the paper I cited) had thought about what I was suggesting there; it's 'obvious'. | 16:19 |
| gmaxwell | But I think it's pretty useful for educational purposes... esp if we want to start asking the public to trust these tools; more people need to have at least the vaguest understanding of them. | 16:21 |
| nsh | (in my imagination, at least) interactive animated games would be a good (perhaps the most accessible) way to convey such concepts | 16:22 |
| nsh | but i've not committed deeply enough to that imagination to try and make any yet | 16:22 |
| -!- GnarSith [~far@onegrandcircle.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:38 | |
| nsh | there's an interesting malleability case in your scheme gmaxwell | 16:41 |
| nsh | -- | 16:41 |
| nsh | I send the commitments to you. | 16:41 |
| nsh | I then compute the hash of all the commitments. | 16:41 |
| nsh | I use the resulting super-commitment to select a random permutation of the encrypted | 16:41 |
| nsh | gates. E.g. I use that hash to initialize a random shuffle on the gates. | 16:41 |
| nsh | -- if you design the circuit so that certain inputs are equivalent, you can grind the supercommitment | 16:41 |
| nsh | i don't know if that would be useful at all | 16:42 |
| -!- woah_ [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 16:43 | |
| -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 16:43 | |
| -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:44 | |
| nsh | i don't think it matters | 16:44 |
| nsh | but it differentiates between reversible and irreversible circuits which is interesting | 16:45 |
| -!- tjopper [~Jop@dhcp-077-249-237-229.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 16:48 | |
| nsh | -- | 16:50 |
| nsh | The N^2 blowup could be eliminated if the gate encryption keys were | 16:50 |
| nsh | committed with a strong hash function which was commutative for XOR, but | 16:50 |
| nsh | this appears to require fancy crypto or interaction[1]. With this you | 16:50 |
| nsh | don't need the N^2 adaption key commitments because you can just | 16:50 |
| nsh | compose the encryption key commitments. | 16:50 |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 16:50 | |
| nsh | -- i had that thought as i was reading (linearity / commutativeity of XOR in the hash would help with efficiency) | 16:50 |
| nsh | what's the fancy crypto alternative to ([1] https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/155.pdf ) ? | 16:51 |
| nsh | general moonmath NI-ZKP stuff? | 16:51 |
| -!- woah_ [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:54 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 17:12 | |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:15 | |
| -!- nessence [~alexl@89.246.69.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:24 | |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 17:24 | |
| -!- nessence [~alexl@89.246.69.218] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:24 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:28 | |
| -!- nessence [~alexl@89.246.69.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 17:28 | |
| -!- koshii [~0@node-wg8.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 17:30 | |
| -!- koshii [~0@node-wg8.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:31 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:32 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 17:36 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:41 | |
| -!- OX3 [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 17:43 | |
| -!- jps [~jps@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:43 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:598b:558a:1842:7b21] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 17:48 | |
| -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 18:09 | |
| -!- woah_ [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 18:09 | |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 18:21 | |
| kanzure | gmaxwell: what is your best guess as to why there's so many (20) seeders on https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6554331 and yet so few on the library genesis (libgen) torrent collection? | 18:26 |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:27 | |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:30 | |
| -!- devsaturn [~blah@105-237-18-22.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 18:38 | |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 18:39 | |
| -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@d40a6497.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 18:41 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:9ce6:6279:5508:f683] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:42 | |
| -!- jps [~jps@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Gone] | 18:43 | |
| kanzure | also: i think the problem in p2p file storage of "just ask a peer for the data that you need to fetch (and then apply a previously-stored salt if necessary?)" is similar to the lack of incentives in bitcoin to run a node storing the full blockchain (although in bitcoin there are certain incentives for storing the blockchain because of security/financial reasons) | 18:45 |
| * nsh muses | 18:47 | |
| kanzure | also, this is probably a bad idea, although i'm not sure how bad, but you could remove old transaction/block relaying in bitcoin, or make it costly, so that nodes have an incentive to keep a copy? | 18:50 |
| kanzure | s/old/sufficiently-old (recent blocks or transactions would have to be exempt) | 18:51 |
| nsh | incentive to keep a copy isn't incentive to make it available to others | 18:51 |
| kanzure | certainly, but so what? | 18:51 |
| nsh | maximising availability is probably more important than motivating retention | 18:52 |
| kanzure | specifically you mean maximizing availability, for the purposes of new nodes getting caught up? | 18:53 |
| * nsh nods | 18:53 | |
| * nsh reads "How robust are gossip-based communication protocols?" - http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~lorenzo/papers/p14-alvisi.pdf | 18:56 | |
| kanzure | i also recommend http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~asdas/research/dsn02-swim.pdf | 18:56 |
| kanzure | or really this overview https://www.serfdom.io/docs/internals/gossip.html | 18:57 |
| -!- d4de [~d4de@unaffiliated/d4de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:03 | |
| Taek | It'd be interesting to have a culture where you pay for data | 19:06 |
| moa | i think there government agencies for that already? | 19:06 |
| Taek | Data that is ubiquitously available would be as cheap as bandwidth, because many parties would be able to pay for it | 19:06 |
| Taek | *able to provide it | 19:06 |
| nsh | every day i wake up in the reality where people pay for data. how do i wake up in the one you're from where they don't? | 19:06 |
| Taek | are you talking about paying for bandwidth, or are you talking about paying for the actual content? | 19:07 |
| -!- andytoshi [18e3de9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.227.222.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:08 | |
| -!- andytoshi [18e3de9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.227.222.157] has quit [Changing host] | 19:08 | |
| -!- andytoshi [18e3de9d@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:08 | |
| -!- andytoshi [18e3de9d@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Changing host] | 19:08 | |
| -!- andytoshi [18e3de9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.227.222.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:08 | |
| * nsh wasn't being serious | 19:08 | |
| Taek | o | 19:09 |
| Taek | on an unrelated note, the sidechains paper + ama gives me the feeling that the writers are pretty firmly opposed to new currencies | 19:12 |
| Taek | which is something I don't fully understand | 19:12 |
| kanzure | there are many reasons to oppose bad ideas | 19:12 |
| Taek | new currency != bad idea? | 19:13 |
| kanzure | bad implementations are also worthy of opposition. | 19:13 |
| Taek | I get that most of the altcoins out there are somewhere between ignorantly bad and outright malicious | 19:13 |
| Taek | but I imagine most sidechains will be in a similar boat | 19:15 |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 19:15 | |
| Taek | crazy amibitous ideas like BitsharesX that seem awful, or copycats of the first sidechains hoping to piggyback off of their success | 19:16 |
| kanzure | bitsharesx isn't awful because of its ambition | 19:16 |
| Taek | poorly phrased: they don't seem to know what they are doing | 19:17 |
| kanzure | well maybe its ambition, but that's hardly the first reason i would use. | 19:17 |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 19:18 | |
| andytoshi | Taek: have you read alts.pdf? also what would be the point of creating a new currency? | 19:18 |
| -!- jps [~jps@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:18 | |
| andytoshi | beyond market fragmentation etc | 19:18 |
| Taek | I've read alts.pdf, and I think there are a range of good reasons to make new currencies | 19:19 |
| Taek | if you tether an idea like decentralized storage to it's own currency, the value of the currency will rise and fall with the value of the service it enables | 19:20 |
| Taek | kind of like a stock | 19:20 |
| andytoshi | why not value the service directly ... using prices | 19:20 |
| andytoshi | like every other market asset in history? | 19:21 |
| * nsh smiles | 19:21 | |
| kanzure | unfortunately nobody has figured out decentralized storage, so currency is the least of the concerns there | 19:21 |
| nsh | that's a bit unfair | 19:22 |
| kanzure | go on? | 19:22 |
| -!- jps [~jps@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 19:22 | |
| nsh | e.g. tahoe-lafs has a lot of stuff figured out | 19:22 |
| -!- dansmith- [~dansmith@85.25.117.24] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:22 | |
| kanzure | oh right, sorry, i meant the one about.. erm.. reliability or proof of storage or resource or something. | 19:23 |
| nsh | and if you have content in google's cache, it's pretty decentralized, i'd bet | 19:23 |
| Taek | also andytoshi I don't believe that alts.pdf covers the currency part, mostly just the idea that altcoin creators are not generally competent when introducing new ideas | 19:23 |
| andytoshi | Taek: that's correct, alts.pdf does not cover the creation of currencies | 19:24 |
| andytoshi | tho the sidechains wp does discuss a lot of the problems with new currencies ... and i'm not sure you can cite an existing altcoin that needs to be a currency (except e.g. freicoin which is an economically very different asset from bitcoin) | 19:26 |
| andytoshi | if there was anyone with a plausible claim that these currencies had any point, we would've addressed it | 19:26 |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:26 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 19:27 | |
| -!- Guest14594 is now known as maaku | 19:27 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 19:28 | |
| kanzure | Taek: part of the security of a blockchain derives from the currency, except that hashing power from other chains can beat new chains up. | 19:28 |
| Taek | let's talk about monero then. Monero adds a clearly desirable feature that you can't get out of Bitcoin | 19:28 |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:28 | |
| Taek | How are you going to implement something like that without introducing a new currency? | 19:28 |
| andytoshi | right. and there is no need whatsoever for them to have a separate asset for that feature | 19:28 |
| andytoshi | with sidechaisn | 19:28 |
| Taek | hmmm | 19:30 |
| andytoshi | it doesn't make conceptual sense that there wolud be a separate currency to enable certain transaction types, it's just a limitation of the bitcoin tech/historical accident | 19:30 |
| jgarzik | andytoshi, partially | 19:31 |
| jgarzik | andytoshi, NMC should float separate from BTC | 19:31 |
| jgarzik | andytoshi, connecting free market signalling to decentralized database operations is useful | 19:32 |
| andytoshi | sure, that's what Taek was getting at with a "decentralized storage coin" i think | 19:32 |
| andytoshi | but nmc doesn't need to be a currency, the tokens could directly represent domains | 19:32 |
| jgarzik | In the context of new bitcoin features, though, I do agree | 19:32 |
| andytoshi | i think, if you are using the word "currency" to describe your asset it is probably unnecessary | 19:33 |
| jgarzik | andytoshi, possibly, yes, but I think there needs to be a token for each database operation type, to properly ensure the health of the DC db | 19:33 |
| jgarzik | not each record | 19:33 |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:34 | |
| andytoshi | yeah, ok | 19:34 |
| jgarzik | because it's really a flow of database operations + long term maintenance (storage) of db data you want to pay for. | 19:34 |
| Taek | (I'm really struggling with this, which is good, b/c it means you're probably changing my mind about a lot of things) From 10,000 feet, I very much don't like the idea of 'one currency to rule them all' | 19:34 |
| Taek | because as the economy grows, the currency is going to grow in value, and the people who benefit from that growth are the holders of the currency | 19:35 |
| Taek | regardless of who actually added the value to the economy | 19:35 |
| Taek | instead you want the value added to be going directly to the people who are adding the value | 19:35 |
| andytoshi | Taek: this is what a market does | 19:36 |
| jgarzik | "you want" -> projection | 19:36 |
| andytoshi | Taek: we've gotten through all of human history without making cryptographic derivatives for everything :) | 19:36 |
| Taek | this is true, but that doesn't mean that we've had a perfect monetary system | 19:36 |
| moa | or cryptographic money for that matter | 19:36 |
| Taek | example: satoshi (as far as we know) has done absolutely nothing for the benefit of Bitcoin since disappearing | 19:37 |
| Taek | and yet he's the one who benefits the most from the growth of the ecosystem | 19:37 |
| Taek | the market isn't going to fix that | 19:37 |
| Taek | *adjust that | 19:38 |
| jgarzik | Taek, Not everyone in bitcoin agrees this is problem. Without near-100% consensus that it is a problem, then there will not be an engineering change. | 19:39 |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:39 | |
| sl01_ | Taek: don't the people creating value by definition get rewarded for it? | 19:39 |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:39 | |
| jgarzik | changing economic theories midstream | 19:39 |
| jgarzik | unwise | 19:39 |
| jgarzik | Taek, freicoin has demurrage | 19:39 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:40 | |
| Taek | I'm not suggesting we adjust Bitcoin in any way, and I also think demurrage is a doomed-to-fail idea | 19:40 |
| Taek | who would store their money in a currency with demurrage? | 19:40 |
| Taek | I sure wouldn't | 19:40 |
| kanzure | Taek: what's wrong with someone having lots of money? | 19:40 |
| kanzure | ah, i prefer jgarzik's response over my own. nevermind. | 19:40 |
| -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@122.Red-88-1-121.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:42 | |
| Taek | It's not that he has lots of money that bothers me, it's that he got the money wihtout people trading it to him | 19:42 |
| kanzure | didn't they? | 19:42 |
| Taek | they didn't. He became wealthy by hoarding an asset that had almost no value and sitting on it while it grew in value explosively | 19:44 |
| jgarzik | Yawn. early risk, early reward. | 19:44 |
| jgarzik | Might as well hate the entire stock market. | 19:44 |
| Taek | well, the stock market does seem like a pretty messed up system | 19:45 |
| Taek | do you really think that Page & Brin added billions of dollars of value to Google? | 19:45 |
| Taek | or was it the hoardes of highly talented employees? | 19:46 |
| jgarzik | Anyway | 19:46 |
| kanzure | haha if this doesn't count as "a billion dollars of value" what the hell does | 19:46 |
| jgarzik | I want 2-way pegging without having to mod bitcoin | 19:46 |
| jgarzik | I'm interested in sidechains, from a decentralized-app-chain perspective | 19:46 |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@184.65.107.59] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:47 | |
| * andy-logbot is logging | 19:47 | |
| jgarzik | to do namecoin-like things, while avoiding a new floating token | 19:47 |
| jgarzik | simplified, | 19:48 |
| jgarzik | swap BTC for namecoinBTC, then buy namecoin{expire,renew,create} tokens with namecoinBTC | 19:48 |
| jgarzik | no floating NMC, but the db op tokens do float | 19:48 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 19:49 | |
| jgarzik | free market sets price of db op | 19:49 |
| kanzure | why is the op called db here? | 19:49 |
| jgarzik | namecoin is a database | 19:50 |
| jgarzik | a decentralized db, where you buy database operations (new DNS record, renew existing DNS record) | 19:50 |
| kanzure | okay okay, i'm just not used to seeing "db" refer to "database" when next to a transaction script op | 19:52 |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@184.65.107.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 19:52 | |
| jgarzik | IMO namecoin is a better model for Ethereum than Ethereum itself. | 19:53 |
| jgarzik | Free market pricing of each database operation inside each decentralized app | 19:54 |
| jgarzik | but no randomly floating "inflation token" | 19:54 |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@184.65.107.59] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:56 | |
| * andy-logbot is logging | 19:56 | |
| -!- Greed` [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:57 | |
| -!- Greed [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 20:00 | |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@184.65.107.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:01 | |
| zooko | Hm. | 20:01 |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:04 | |
| -!- spiftheninja [~miner@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] | 20:07 | |
| zooko | jgarzik: so BTC has a fixed exchange rate with namecoinBTC? | 20:07 |
| phantomcircuit | zooko, that depends on the sidechain rules | 20:07 |
| zooko | I'm trying to understand the point of that. | 20:07 |
| zooko | I'm also trying to understand how to do side-chain-like things without modifying Bitcoin protocol. | 20:08 |
| zooko | I'm familiar with TierNolan/amiller atomic swap. | 20:08 |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:09 | |
| phantomcircuit | zooko, federated peg, without that you need a new op code | 20:09 |
| -!- arowser1 [~arowser@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:09 | |
| phantomcircuit | which is a soft forking change | 20:09 |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:10 | |
| zooko | What is a "federated peg"? | 20:10 |
| -!- artilectinc [~andrzej.l@50-78-244-190-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:10 | |
| BlueMatt | ie jsut a big multisig where the multisig is responsible for holding the locked btc for the sidechain | 20:11 |
| zooko | Oh. | 20:11 |
| -!- artilectinc [~andrzej.l@50-78-244-190-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:11 | |
| BlueMatt | (with the goal of moving to a full-mining sidechain when possible, ofc) | 20:12 |
| zooko | What do you mean a "full-mining sidechain"? | 20:12 |
| BlueMatt | one without a multisig | 20:12 |
| BlueMatt | with the spv proofs | 20:12 |
| zooko | E.g. that Bitcoin protocol gets upgraded to honor unlock requests with sufficient PoW from the side-chain? | 20:13 |
| nsh | zooko: p.17 http://www.blockstream.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/sidechains.pdf | 20:15 |
| BlueMatt | zooko: yes, idea being that you can do a multisig-held sidechain until bitcoin is upgraded to do spv validation of other chains | 20:16 |
| -!- machinery [~textual@148.240.141.29] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:17 | |
| -!- spiftheninja [~miner@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:18 | |
| zooko | nsh, BlueMatt: I see. | 20:19 |
| Luke-Jr | would it be crazy to use SCTP (over UDP) for future mining protocols? | 20:20 |
| BlueMatt | Luke-Jr: why? | 20:21 |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@184.65.107.59] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:22 | |
| * andy-logbot is logging | 20:22 | |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: seems like a nice fit | 20:23 |
| Luke-Jr | actually, maybe not that nice | 20:24 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2604:5500:13:5fc:4856:8973:e46:6b46] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:27 | |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@184.65.107.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 20:28 | |
| lechuga_ | y not | 20:31 |
| lechuga_ | u could control your own congestion control algo | 20:31 |
| lechuga_ | tcp be damned | 20:31 |
| lechuga_ | which i guess may not be that nice :) | 20:31 |
| lechuga_ | but for 1MB i bet no1 would even notice | 20:32 |
| -!- ebfull [~ebfull@c-76-120-40-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:33 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 20:34 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:34 | |
| -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:34 | |
| Luke-Jr | well, it'd be nice if share submissions were never held back because a TCP packet got lost somewhere :p | 20:34 |
| BlueMatt | lechuga_: mining is very low bandwidth...you almost just want to do raw udp packets and duplicate everything you send | 20:34 |
| BlueMatt | Luke-Jr: yea, so just duplicate packets on the wire :) | 20:34 |
| lechuga_ | erasure code it and blast it | 20:35 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: the difficult is fragmentation ;) | 20:35 |
| Luke-Jr | difficulty* | 20:35 |
| Luke-Jr | consider also, we want to encrypt submissions and sign work updates | 20:35 |
| BlueMatt | Luke-Jr: huh? cant it all be like <1k? | 20:35 |
| lechuga_ | skype does nasty tricks like this | 20:35 |
| BlueMatt | you should essentially never see frag <1k | 20:35 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: you can't even guarantee 1k isn't dropped | 20:35 |
| Luke-Jr | IPv4 only guarantees like 530 bytes | 20:36 |
| lechuga_ | i think 1k is safe assumption for mtu | 20:36 |
| lechuga_ | in modern era | 20:36 |
| BlueMatt | Luke-Jr: you cant guarantee anything, but if you're link is dropping 1k...well...go fuck yourself | 20:36 |
| Luke-Jr | :P | 20:36 |
| BlueMatt | or...if your link is dropping 1k, then you're just gonna have a slower link | 20:36 |
| lechuga_ | at least ive tested that at scale with a udp protocol with application layer congestion control | 20:36 |
| lechuga_ | and it worked out pretty good | 20:36 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: also, I'd love to some day run miners over 6LoWPAN just cuz :p | 20:36 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: to get a "slower link", you need fragmentation | 20:37 |
| lechuga_ | u can also play reasonably fair wrt tcp | 20:37 |
| Luke-Jr | (6LoWPAN drops anything over like 100 bytes) | 20:37 |
| lechuga_ | and use packet queueing delay as a secondary signal to loss | 20:38 |
| lechuga_ | and predict when tcp will lose anyway | 20:38 |
| BlueMatt | Luke-Jr: if you're doing that...great...you do some naiive fragmentation crap that barely works and people using shitty links will be used to things barely working :p | 20:39 |
| BlueMatt | (or fallback to tcp) | 20:39 |
| Luke-Jr | heh | 20:39 |
| Luke-Jr | fallback to TCP sounds like a good idea | 20:39 |
| Luke-Jr | maybe just do this with TCP initially, but designed so it could handle a UDP-based protocol.. | 20:39 |
| BlueMatt | yea, do some kind of packet-based protocol where all packets are <1k and just send it over tcp by default | 20:39 |
| lechuga_ | nah go right for the grail | 20:40 |
| Luke-Jr | :P | 20:40 |
| Luke-Jr | good abstraction is useful anyway | 20:42 |
| moa | openvpn does something quite close to that | 20:42 |
| Luke-Jr | moa: reliable, unordered packets? | 20:44 |
| Luke-Jr | not sure a VPN would want reliable | 20:44 |
| Luke-Jr | anyhow, I should just focus on using TCP first I think <.< | 20:45 |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 20:46 | |
| lechuga_ | yeah developing a udp protocol which will be fair and opprtunistically beat tcp is a significant effort | 20:46 |
| moa | Luke-Jr: i think openvpn is actually tcp on top of udp ... but it 'can' do both | 20:47 |
| Luke-Jr | <.< | 20:47 |
| moa | bit hazy but works over really bad satellite uplinks | 20:47 |
| moa | maybe they changed it since 2010 | 20:48 |
| lechuga_ | whats satellite latency in ms | 20:48 |
| moa | can be long as 1-5s | 20:48 |
| lechuga_ | lol | 20:48 |
| moa | heh | 20:49 |
| lechuga_ | actually | 20:49 |
| lechuga_ | i know a guy who worked for jpl and they built their own tcp for this purpose | 20:49 |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 20:49 | |
| lechuga_ | i think they like contracted vern paxon or someone crazy like that | 20:49 |
| moa | Luke-Jr: fact that it is a vpn is not the point ... you set up a udp tun iface and layer tcp emulation on top | 20:50 |
| moa | set one up in either direction i.e. | 20:51 |
| moa | or some such trickery ... it's been a while | 20:52 |
| -!- rdponticelli [~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/rdponticelli] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 20:54 | |
| moa | stun i.e. | 20:58 |
| lechuga_ | yeah u use stun to find your external mapping | 20:59 |
| lechuga_ | then u need a coordinating backchannel to find each other to start the handshake | 20:59 |
| moa | at that point you;re diggin into IP and IPsec like .. ;P | 21:00 |
| lechuga_ | then u can send syns to each other at 25hz and penetrate restricted cone nat | 21:00 |
| -!- andytosh1 [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:02 | |
| phantomcircuit | udp hole punching is not a science | 21:03 |
| moa | a lot of p2p doesn't need full tcp so a reduced emulation over udp might make sense ... | 21:03 |
| moa | horses for course | 21:03 |
| moa | right | 21:03 |
| phantomcircuit | so you need udp w/ stun + tcp fallback | 21:03 |
| phantomcircuit | which is annoying | 21:03 |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-221-39.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 21:04 | |
| phantomcircuit | moa, a proper vpn is udp | 21:04 |
| phantomcircuit | otherwise you get tcp congestion control ^ 2 | 21:04 |
| phantomcircuit | ie instead of cutting the window in half it gets cut in to a quarter | 21:05 |
| lechuga_ | or cut to the current bw estimation | 21:05 |
| -!- machinery [~textual@148.240.141.29] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 21:06 | |
| moa | 9600 baud | 21:07 |
| moa | P2P/IP? | 21:13 |
| -!- nsh_ [~nsh@host217-43-192-162.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 21:13 | |
| -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 21:14 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:15 | |
| -!- andytoshi [18e3de9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.227.222.157] has quit [Quit: Page closed] | 21:15 | |
| -!- andytosh1 is now known as andytoshi | 21:16 | |
| -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Changing host] | 21:17 | |
| -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:17 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 21:17 | |
| -!- jedunnigan [~jedunniga@us1x.mullvad.net] has quit [] | 21:33 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000_ [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:33 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 21:36 | |
| -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 21:55 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 22:00 | |
| -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:01 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000_ is now known as DougieBot5000 | 22:03 | |
| -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@106-68-157-235.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 22:06 | |
| -!- AlphaBar123 [~AlphaBar@c-71-202-114-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:08 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust615.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:11 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust615.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] | 22:11 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:11 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:18 | |
| -!- ebfull [~ebfull@c-76-120-40-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: cya] | 22:44 | |
| -!- Starduster [~quest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:05 | |
| -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:31 | |
| -!- ebfull [~ebfull@c-76-120-40-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:33 | |
| --- Log closed Sat Oct 25 00:00:28 2014 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!