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| shibe25 | I like potatos, and you to should love potatoes | 06:19 |
|---|---|---|
| shibe25 | Potatoes | 06:19 |
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| fluffypony | wut | 06:20 |
| sipa | s/to/too/ | 06:21 |
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| maaku | amiller: we have opportunistically talked to mining pool and cloud hashing operators, and asic manufacturers at conferences and such trying to get them to support getblocktemplate and other tech like smart property which lets their users control what their equipment is hashing | 10:29 |
| maaku | I can only assume that is what petertodd was referring to | 10:30 |
| amiller | sounds right | 10:31 |
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| ahmed_ | does anyone here know how to get 0x00000000FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF from CBigNum(~uint256(0) >> 32) ? | 13:08 |
| @gwillen | ahmed_: 'how to get' in what sense? I.e. what are you trying to do? | 13:09 |
| ahmed_ | gwillen: essentially just work out how the hex value is obtained from the CBignum value | 13:09 |
| ahmed_ | since ive seen a lot of altcoins with varying values for nProofOfWorkLimit so i want to make sure i have the correct diff1 | 13:09 |
| @gwillen | ahh, well, start with 256 bits of 0, then flip them all to 256 bits of 1, then shift right by 32 bits (shifting in 32 zeroes), so now you have 32 zeroes and 224 ones | 13:10 |
| ahmed_ | gwillen: do u have any code based examples? | 13:10 |
| @gwillen | if you are trying to make an altcoin, you're really asking in the wrong place | 13:11 |
| ahmed_ | gwillen: nope definitely not trying to work on an altcoin | 13:11 |
| @gwillen | what are you trying to do? :-) | 13:12 |
| ahmed_ | im working on some pool software which i'd like to work with as many altcoins (even some of the shittier altcoins ugh) | 13:12 |
| @gwillen | ahhhh | 13:12 |
| @gwillen | well, what you're asking about is pretty basic bit-math stuff | 13:12 |
| apoelstra | ahmed_: is that the mindiff value? | 13:13 |
| ahmed_ | apoelstra: from the wiki yep | 13:13 |
| apoelstra | ahmed_: it should have only 6 F's in it iirc, one sec.. | 13:13 |
| ahmed_ | i figured once i can work out how it works for BTC, then i can do it myself for all coins | 13:14 |
| apoelstra | no, see alts.pdf, once you have figured out bit manipulation you are not even close to being able to write crypto software | 13:14 |
| ahmed_ | apoelstra: im not writing crypto software at all though | 13:14 |
| apoelstra | just reading it? | 13:14 |
| ahmed_ | im writing pool software, which works. however im not confident in validating shares for altcoins | 13:15 |
| apoelstra | validating shares is cryptography | 13:15 |
| ahmed_ | apoelstra: yeah in a way. i just need to make sure that im getting the right values so i dont get hit by the same exploit LTC did a year bag | 13:15 |
| amiller | ahmed_, this is more of a #bitcoin-dev question | 13:15 |
| apoelstra | but np, it's not a huge deal because the consequences of screwup are well contained | 13:15 |
| ahmed_ | *back | 13:15 |
| tacotime | yeah #bitcoin-dev or #whicheveraltcoin-dev | 13:16 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: more like a "go ask the altcoin you're working on question" | 13:16 |
| gmaxwell | since the behavior in varrious altcoins is basically random. | 13:16 |
| tacotime | yeah | 13:16 |
| ahmed_ | gmaxwell: and how can that work when your working on a high number of alts including bitcoin? | 13:16 |
| gmaxwell | E.g. the stratum protocol stuf for ltc just uses a totally bogus handling of difficulty. | 13:17 |
| tacotime | monero's sharediff stuff is different but equally as cryptic as bitcoin's | 13:17 |
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| ahmed_ | if u want i can send u a PM to show u i have BTC on my pool frontend | 13:17 |
| apoelstra | ahmed_: have you read alts.pdf? we are all burned out providing consulting for free.. | 13:17 |
| tacotime | yeah :/ | 13:17 |
| apoelstra | ahmed_: i'm only biting because i also think that bit-twiddle is really weird | 13:17 |
| gmaxwell | ahmed_: besides, you cannot handle things that are different generally. You'll only have mixed success. | 13:17 |
| apoelstra | it's at https://github.com/apoelstra/rust-bitcoin/blob/master/src/blockdata/constants.rs#L40-L43 in a readable way, sorry everyone to be OT. i'll stop now | 13:17 |
| tacotime | apoelstra: no more andytoshi? | 13:17 |
| ahmed_ | gmaxwell: that is true, just trying to cover my ass wherever possible | 13:18 |
| apoelstra | tacotime: oh, oops :) i'll be andytoshi again when wpsoftware.net comes back online | 13:18 |
| apoelstra | tacotime: three power outages in as many days | 13:18 |
| ahmed_ | thanks apoelstra the link on bitcoin.ninja isnt working | 13:18 |
| gmaxwell | ahmed_: they're basically free to do anything, and some have randomly adjusted what they're doing without understanding so are unlikely to behave in any really sane way. | 13:18 |
| apoelstra | tacotime: crazy stormy in vancouver apparently... ...and my IRC screen session is there | 13:18 |
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| ahmed_ | gmaxwell: precisely my issue. theres some that arent too bad. (i tend to try and help those where possible) but some are flat out stupid | 13:19 |
| gmaxwell | (doubly so for straum, which ends up sending some normative data as @#$@ floating point numbers instead of integer targets or decodable "bits" values.) | 13:19 |
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| gmaxwell | (hurray for protocols developed in secret without peer review. :( ) | 13:20 |
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| ahmed_ | haha, +1 to there. gbt is easier to use too imo | 13:20 |
| tacotime | speaking of non-peer reviewed systems, figured out my entire ticketing/lottery system had a catastrophic bug. thank god for simnet at least, i guess. | 13:21 |
| gmaxwell | tacotime: :( | 13:22 |
| ahmed_ | tacotime: the best part is atleast figuring it out though | 13:22 |
| ahmed_ | theres some people *cough* who develop something and leave it there for everyone to use when its still shit | 13:22 |
| tacotime | gmaxwell: just gotta patch and hope that works -- thinking about it now it was really naive and it's obvious why it spends more tickets than it generates. it's easy to fix, but there's always going to be a problem where it's possible to run out of tickets and so block validation halts. the more tickets and ticket buckets issued, the less likely, but i need to talk to the math guys and actually work out some kind of probability for that happenin | 13:23 |
| tacotime | g i guess. | 13:23 |
| * ahmed_ wishes slush0 was here so he could complain | 13:23 | |
| * tacotime rubs head. | 13:24 | |
| tacotime | before testnet release though i'll feed it all to them in a general overview and audit too, to make sure nothing else is really wrong with it. | 13:24 |
| tacotime | better to lack confidence in regards to cryptocurrencies. | 13:24 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Private%20key%20recovery%20combination%20attacks:%20On%20extreme%20fragility%20of%20popular%20Bitcoin%20key%20management,%20wallet%20and%20cold%20storage%20solutions%20in%20presence%20of%20poor%20RNG%20events.pdf | 14:51 |
| kanzure | (i haven't read it yet, not an endorsement, etc.) | 14:51 |
| kanzure | although i am not particularly amused by the abstract's observation that cold storage does not need t be compromised to have already been compromised by a poorly implemented rng. that doesn't seem to be worth mentioning? | 14:52 |
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| gmaxwell | kanzure: I commented a bit on it at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=834318.0 | 14:56 |
| kanzure | hmm i strange your opinion about the strangeness of it. i'm going to move it into meh/ (for anyone who finds the link broken) | 14:57 |
| gmaxwell | s/strange/share/ | 14:58 |
| kanzure | there was also that paper posted on arxiv that had a similar style (pandering to various fears) | 14:58 |
| Luke-Jr | yet more "attacks" that assume poor random | 14:59 |
| kanzure | i'm not prepared to identify what that behavior is but it really seems like some sort of academic attempt at landgrabbing.. which is fine.. but why not just landgrab legitimately useful or novel stuff? | 14:59 |
| nsh | kanzure, i'll but you a pint if you replace every space with an underscore in on your server filesystem | 15:00 |
| nsh | *buy | 15:00 |
| nsh | there's only so many %20 you can see in one line before your eyes hurt | 15:00 |
| gmaxwell | The author has published a number of really crappy complaints about Bitcoin, rehashing known stuff and hyping uninteresting things. I actually thought he was some kook (his first papers were randomly modulating into allcaps and other strange tone which are common online markers of schizophrenia), but apparently he's credentialed. It's annyoing to wade through his output, eventually he'll probably find something interesting but I'll ... | 15:00 |
| gmaxwell | ... probably ignore it due to the history of uninteresting commentary. :( | 15:00 |
| * nsh knows this problem very well | 15:01 | |
| nsh | gmaxwell, did you seem my comments about malleability in your simply secure computation scheme? | 15:01 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: no, lemme look. | 15:02 |
| * nsh finds logref | 15:02 | |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: I have some sympathy there, ... it's really common to find something you think is novel in this space only to find some forum post in 2011 that covers it... or worse, only maybe covers it because the post wasn't expanded enough to be sure. | 15:02 |
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| kanzure | nsh: i'll accept some arguments against my file naming convention but you'll have to actually make some. on the other hand, i might just change it anyway because you've already asked.. | 15:03 |
| gmaxwell | I think there is some weird cultural thing where it's considered virtuous to be highly agressive and expansive in claims.... which is annoying, but tolerable when the claims are actually interesting. | 15:03 |
| nsh | .to andytoshi new log layout on https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/ is kinda neat (with infinite scroll) but linkable anchors to lines is pretty essential | 15:03 |
| yoleaux | nsh: I'll pass your message to andytoshi. | 15:03 |
| kanzure | gmaxwell: but isn't that finding-something pretty typical in academia? or what's going on here. | 15:03 |
| amiller | gmaxwell, that author also has a weird page about AES http://www.cryptosystem.net/aes/ | 15:04 |
| nsh | there's an interesting malleability case in your scheme gmaxwell | 15:04 |
| nsh | -- | 15:04 |
| nsh | I send the commitments to you. | 15:04 |
| nsh | I then compute the hash of all the commitments. | 15:04 |
| nsh | I use the resulting super-commitment to select a random permutation of the encrypted | 15:04 |
| nsh | gates. E.g. I use that hash to initialize a random shuffle on the gates. | 15:04 |
| kanzure | "highly aggressive and expansive in claims".... almost like in patents (argue everything and see what you get to keep) | 15:04 |
| nsh | -- if you design the circuit so that certain inputs are equivalent, you can grind the supercommitment | 15:04 |
| nsh | i don't know if that would be useful at all | 15:04 |
| nsh | i don't think it matters | 15:04 |
| nsh | but it differentiates between reversible and irreversible circuits which is interesting | 15:04 |
| nsh | (reposted from logs) | 15:04 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: well normally academic publishing has huge pressure against repetition, to the detriment of the knoweldge of mankind (since slightly improved rehashings and summaries can be some of the most valuable works); but even thats breaking down as more novel venues of publishing crop up (e.g. arxiv) and since most interesting work on Bitcoin has come from 'industry' (e.g. bct) historically. | 15:05 |
| nsh | (because only irreversible circuits allow you to lose information in the circuit about the inputs which would affect the commitment) | 15:05 |
| nsh | (lose so as to not affect the outputs) | 15:05 |
| nsh | thinking about it more, it might matter if the security parameter (how much of the circuit you reveal) is low | 15:06 |
| nsh | but practical applications will be quite conservative | 15:06 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: I'm not following when you'd grind the super-commitment (e.g. what is the input that you're changing to change the super commitment)? | 15:07 |
| Luke-Jr | note: had this been a real attack, we'd be larting him for not disclosing it to be fixed prior to publishing | 15:08 |
| Luke-Jr | so it's probably say he's aware his attack isn't real, and isn't disclosing that in his paper.. | 15:09 |
| kanzure | "it's not published, it's an eprint" (kidding) | 15:09 |
| Luke-Jr | safe to say* | 15:09 |
| nsh | if you design a circuit so that some of the inputs are redundant, can't you affect the hash of all the commitments in a way that doesn't affect the operation of the circuit | 15:10 |
| nsh | so that which subset of the gates you reveal can be controlled | 15:10 |
| nsh | -- | 15:10 |
| nsh | I use the resulting super-commitment to select a random permutation of the encrypted | 15:10 |
| nsh | gates. E.g. I use that hash to initialize a random shuffle on the gates. | 15:10 |
| nsh | Then I reveal the gates and their encryption keys for the first half of the gates | 15:10 |
| nsh | in the shuffled list. | 15:10 |
| nsh | -- | 15:10 |
| nsh | ie, it's not a random shuffle if you can tweak the input | 15:11 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: yes, you can grind it, though grinding it alone does nothing harmful. Now imagine that you add a single corrupted gate to the bag-of-gates: what happens here is that either the 'random' puts it in the revealed half... in which case the gig is up. so you grind it (or get lucky) and it ends up in the used half, in which case it doesn't agree with any of it's duplicates... so again the gig is up. | 15:13 |
| nsh | ah, right | 15:14 |
| gmaxwell | So one bad gate is always detected. Now, you can put more bad gates in, but the probablity of them all ending up in the same duplication group is low, and the more bad gates you put in the greater the chance that one ends up in the set you reveal. | 15:14 |
| nsh | oh, i see | 15:14 |
| nsh | it's inherently fragile | 15:14 |
| nsh | the harder you try and cheat, the more (exponentially? quadratically?) lucky you need to be to get away with it | 15:15 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. if the duplication group is N, then you put N bad gates in, and grind to try to get them to all land at the same place in the circuit, which is infeasable for sufficient parameters. | 15:15 |
| nsh | is it possible in principle to design a (strong) hash function that's commutative over XOR? | 15:16 |
| nsh | seems this would be a powerful primitive | 15:17 |
| gmaxwell | It's possible in principle... using more cryptographic assumptions. | 15:18 |
| nsh | such as those used for accumulators? | 15:18 |
| nsh | it'd be nice to have a graphical(ly renderable) dependency structure for cryptographic assumptions and primitives | 15:20 |
| gmaxwell | I wasted a bunch of time on a version that used a ECDLP assumption and additive homorphism to achive it a commutative hash, only to later realize that (1) the ability to wrap the group let you cheat (because the group is prime order) and (2) I needed additional assumptions about subgroup testing if instead used in a group with non-prime order which I didn't know how to prove (and didn't even believe were true). Probably there is a ... | 15:21 |
| gmaxwell | ... way to do it that involves additional range proofs... but it was escaping a level of complexity that I considered acceptable as a toy/teaching cryptosystem at that point. | 15:21 |
| * nsh nods | 15:21 | |
| gmaxwell | I'm making a (maybe somewhat ill-advised) assumption that if there were a simple way to do this with O(N) scaling that someone would have published it already. | 15:22 |
| nsh | like feynmann said: "there's plenty of room at the bottom" | 15:24 |
| nsh | and it's productive to think about what exactly the quadratic inefficiency represents on some deep level | 15:24 |
| gmaxwell | yea, but also plenty of risk here... lets say I do actually find something that is O(N) and only needs hashing and some basic EC math and only modest constant factors. It would be attractive to actually use such a thing. But the work required to be confident of its security is huge. | 15:25 |
| nsh | any inefficiency where more efficiency is possible represents some previously nondiscerned symmetry or equivalent structure | 15:25 |
| * nsh nods | 15:25 | |
| gmaxwell | so it's almost not worth trying, when I have so many other things to do ... many of which don't carry the same risks or don't already have people working on them. | 15:26 |
| * nsh nods | 15:26 | |
| nsh | vita brevis | 15:26 |
| nsh | but it's productive nonetheless, regardless of whether it's optimally productive for you, personally :) | 15:26 |
| nsh | it'd be nice if we have some kind of efficient system for handover of such avenues of investigation where time does not permit | 15:26 |
| nsh | *we had | 15:27 |
| gmaxwell | yea, well thats perhaps true.. or perhaps not. Me publishing a half baked scheme might actually mean someone who wants to put the time working on showing it secure can't actually publish their results in academic fora. | 15:27 |
| nsh | hmm | 15:27 |
| nsh | hard to imagine how the existence of some thought could preclude academic treatment | 15:28 |
| nsh | it might lead research up some garden path, but that's a ubiquitous risk | 15:28 |
| kanzure | "Secure and efficient asynchronous broadcast protocols" (2001) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Secure%20and%20efficient%20asynchronous%20broadcast%20protocols.pdf | 15:28 |
| gmaxwell | (thats in fact part of why my scheme is just a text file that I've not published beyond sharing it with a few people around here; it needs a better section on the statistical implications and if I go publishing this where lots of people see it, I'm less able to ask other people to work on that part) | 15:28 |
| * nsh nods | 15:29 | |
| kanzure | "As our network is insecure and asynchronous, protocol execution is defined entirely via the adversary. The adversary is a polynomial-time interactive Turing machine that schedules and delivers all messages and corrupts some parties." | 15:32 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: doesn't work in the dynamic membership model; see 2.3.3 they assume a dealer that keys the participants. | 15:32 |
| kanzure | right, some pki stuff | 15:32 |
| gmaxwell | (I wish it were easier to extract model assumptions for papers; I'm getting pretty good at it now; but it still takes a fair amount of time on some papers) | 15:33 |
| kanzure | oh, they are also assuming that nodes are always online..? | 15:33 |
| gmaxwell | yea, so virtual every consensus anything paper assumes: There is static, identified, key holding, non-sybil (somehow) participants, who all are online if they are considered honest, and who can all reach each other (or if they can't there is some threshold partitioning allowed, but it's directly traded off with jammability). | 15:34 |
| nsh | this is why amiller (et al.) latest is exciting | 15:35 |
| gmaxwell | There is a paper called .. uh.. blue something I linked in here a long time ago for mostly efficient partially ordered broadcast that looked useful, lemme see if I can find it. | 15:35 |
| kanzure | i'll keep those default assumptions in mind | 15:35 |
| gmaxwell | http://matt.singlethink.net/projects/mpotr/oldblue-draft.pdf | 15:36 |
| amiller | i reviewed a paper a couple weeks ago | 15:40 |
| amiller | that presents a new method for some technique | 15:40 |
| amiller | for the security proof, it just reduces to an attacker on an earlier paper | 15:40 |
| amiller | that earlier paper, the security proof is based on a generic construction of a third earlier paper | 15:40 |
| amiller | they made a typo in importing the generic construction | 15:41 |
| gmaxwell | oops. | 15:42 |
| amiller | it took wayyy too much effort to find that proof error (i only looked because another reviewer basically said 'lul this is obviously broken heres a cheeky counter example') | 15:42 |
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| amiller | and the error amounts to like, an import mismatch | 15:42 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: did andytosh tell you? we found a bug in wolfram alpha while checking the pegged sidechains paper. (Bluematt plugged one of the equations into wolfram alpha; told me "that equation equals zero" and I was thinking "great we've proved a sum of positive powers of e can be zero, lets go collect or fields medal" ...) | 15:43 |
| amiller | lol | 15:43 |
| gmaxwell | haven't had a chance to see if mathmatica is similarly bugged yet. | 15:43 |
| gmaxwell | (basically it claims the reorg sum formula is EXACTLY equal to zero (not a num approx.). If you remove the 1- from the equation it correctly gives a 0.999(lots)(non9s) answer. | 15:44 |
| gmaxwell | ) | 15:44 |
| gmaxwell | s/or fields/our fields/ | 15:45 |
| nsh | what was the input to wolfram alpha? | 15:53 |
| gmaxwell | equation at line 576 (page 19) of sidechains.pdf | 15:54 |
| nsh | ah | 15:55 |
| nsh | 10^-196 is a lot like zero to be fair | 15:56 |
| nsh | in engineering terms | 15:56 |
| @gwillen | gmaxwell: it also has a date handling bug we found when writing a date-based mystery hunt puzzle | 15:56 |
| @gwillen | it computes date intervals wrong crossing some historic boundary | 15:56 |
| nsh | a calendar change? | 15:56 |
| @gwillen | in particular it computes them inconsistently depending on how you do it (it's not just that it disagrees with us about the calendar) | 15:56 |
| * nsh nods | 15:57 | |
| @gwillen | it was some date related to the julian-gregorian change, yes | 15:57 |
| @gwillen | I don't remember the exact details of why that particular date | 15:57 |
| @gwillen | I think it was a february 29 | 15:57 |
| nsh | i think some of-- right | 15:57 |
| nsh | some of the leap corrections don't work well with the change of calendar | 15:57 |
| @gwillen | if you landed on it in one direction it would claim you were on feb 29 but if you landed on it in the other direction it would claim you were on mar 1, I think | 15:58 |
| nsh | once a leap second correction over NTP fucked up everyone's debian boxes via a futex(2) deadlock | 15:58 |
| gmaxwell | sept 3rd 1752 perhaps? | 15:58 |
| @gwillen | hah. | 15:58 |
| nsh | a few years ago | 15:58 |
| nsh | that was fun | 15:58 |
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| @gwillen | gmaxwell: oh, have you run into this | 15:58 |
| @gwillen | I could believe that I'm wrong about it being a feb | 15:58 |
| nsh | .t http://serverfault.com/questions/403732/anyone-else-experiencing-high-rates-of-linux-server-crashes-during-a-leap-second | 15:58 |
| yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name. | 15:58 |
| nsh | .title | 15:58 |
| yoleaux | debian - Anyone else experiencing high rates of Linux server crashes during a leap second day? - Server Fault | 15:58 |
| gmaxwell | no, just written date handling code before. :) (also why I know leap year rule trivia) | 15:59 |
| nsh | software \o/ | 15:59 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: yea, we're doomed. | 15:59 |
| nsh | if you can exploit strings(1) | 15:59 |
| nsh | nothing is safe | 15:59 |
| nsh | may as well go full luddite | 15:59 |
| sipa | wut? | 15:59 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: strings is exploitable | 15:59 |
| nsh | .title http://lcamtuf.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/psa-dont-run-strings-on-untrusted-files.html | 15:59 |
| yoleaux | lcamtuf's blog: PSA: don't run 'strings' on untrusted files | 15:59 |
| sipa | how so? | 15:59 |
| nsh | because of a binwalk library | 15:59 |
| nsh | that does 'clever' | 15:59 |
| gmaxwell | (see also: my constant, unending, nagging about never using strings for anything. :P ) | 15:59 |
| sipa | hmm, can't remember any such nagging | 16:00 |
| gmaxwell | (strings the data structure, I mean, not the program) | 16:00 |
| nsh | " Interestingly, the problems with the utility aren't exactly new; Tavis spotted the first signs of trouble some nine years ago. " | 16:00 |
| nsh | ( https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91398 ) | 16:00 |
| gmaxwell | sure you do, every time someone wants to add a string to the bitcoin protocol I've whined about it. :) | 16:00 |
| nsh | oh, right | 16:00 |
| sipa | heh, i had no idea it tried to decode binary format | 16:01 |
| nsh | wouldn't have assumed it either | 16:01 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: sorry, i thought you meant "never using the program 'strings' for anything" | 16:02 |
| sipa | i'm aware of your aversion of the data type | 16:02 |
| gmaxwell | yea, no, but there you go, strings does string handling and therefor is likely to be broken. :P | 16:02 |
| gmaxwell | This prejudice has pretty much never failed me. | 16:02 |
| * nsh smiles | 16:03 | |
| woah | gmaxwell what is the core attribute that makes strings insecure in your opinion? | 16:04 |
| nsh | they tend towards unsafe combinations of interpretation | 16:05 |
| nsh | or muddy thinking thereabouts | 16:05 |
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| gmaxwell | woah: well, mostly experience says they are regardless of the causes. But if I were to guess, it's a mixture of in-band signaling and a lack of clear size bounding. (e.g. generic string handling code probably ought to handle strings of unbounded size; thats unreasonable so things often have limits, the limits can be surprising to callers, even when disclosed they're not always counted consistently)... plus they don't provide crisp ... | 16:07 |
| gmaxwell | ... boundaries, inevitably you don't just implement strings but strings plus adhoc parsing. | 16:07 |
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| gmaxwell | And then you get bugs from parsing inconsistencies too. | 16:07 |
| woah | hmm very good points | 16:07 |
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| gmaxwell | plus things like code that isn't 8-bit-clean, or code that handles things as unicode. (that stuff interacts awesomely with random byte limits in string handling code, since truncation can create invalid codepoints.. or worse, cause a dumb reader to miss a null terminator) | 16:08 |
| woah | hmmm its just a messy undertaking huh | 16:08 |
| gmaxwell | Or code that has one idea of the length (e.g. because it created it) not agreeing with a strlen() (an example of an in-band signaling problem); so you get different code reading data from a string differently. | 16:09 |
| gmaxwell | don't get me wrong, its often necessary to use strings. ... but I try to avoid them anywhere it isn't necessary. | 16:09 |
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| gmaxwell | oh another problem with strings is that they get embedded in protocols that carry explicit lengths... and then the two methods of counting can disagree and cause doom. | 16:12 |
| gmaxwell | (in particular, I've found multiple authentication bypass vulnerabilties in commercial networking products due to this) | 16:13 |
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| woah | hmm so strings are just an easy place to mess up | 16:16 |
| woah | and it's unfortunate to introduce that to a system that doesn't need it | 16:16 |
| gmaxwell | well, everything is easy to mess up, strings seem simpler than they actually are. | 16:17 |
| nsh | right, it's the distance between perceived complexity and actual complexity that causes many issues | 16:19 |
| nsh | abstraction allows us to build things that we couldn't otherwise, but it blinds us to the complexities that you can't really shove under the carpet | 16:19 |
| nsh | or rug | 16:19 |
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| @gwillen | pascal strings are really not that bad (length-prefixed strings) | 16:37 |
| @gwillen | c-strings are where you get in trouble, I think | 16:37 |
| @gwillen | (of course, true pascal strings also have a maximum length, which has both pluses and minuses) | 16:37 |
| gmaxwell | yes, many of my complaints are c-strings specific... people also do pascal like strings with varable length length bytes which have their own sources of fun. | 16:37 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, failure to update length being the worst | 16:38 |
| * nsh wonders how Rust is coming along | 16:39 | |
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| lechuga_ | whoa@strings vuln | 16:42 |
| lechuga_ | good2know | 16:42 |
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| @gwillen | gmaxwell: djb's way of representing length-coded strings is pretty reasonable and _reasonably_ hard to fuck up | 16:47 |
| @gwillen | it's something like "ASCII-encoded length, colon, string, comma", I believe | 16:47 |
| @gwillen | so on the one hand it does have a delimiter, but on the other hand it would be hard to get too confused while parsing that without _noticing_ that you were confused | 16:48 |
| phantomcircuit | gwillen, people screw it up even when it's something like big endian 64bit + string | 16:48 |
| * gwillen nods | 16:48 | |
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| @gwillen | that version seems hard to screw up | 16:48 |
| @gwillen | as long as you have a test for zero and a test for 1 | 16:48 |
| phantomcircuit | switch endianness | 16:48 |
| @gwillen | the test for 1 will catch that, though | 16:48 |
| @gwillen | (i.e. if you do that it won't fail _occasionally_, it will fail _catastrophically and always_) | 16:49 |
| phantomcircuit | gwillen, i've seen things where the check correctly swaps endianness | 16:49 |
| phantomcircuit | but the actual code doesn't | 16:49 |
| * gwillen nod | 16:49 | |
| phantomcircuit | iirc firefox had an issue related to this with X.509 certs | 16:49 |
| nsh | heh | 16:51 |
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| gmaxwell | ascii encoded length is pretty easy to screw up, it's also non-canonical ... e.g. 00001 vs 01 vs 1; which can cause some problems. | 17:12 |
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| @gwillen | gmaxwell: the noncanonicality is annoying, I hadn't noticed that before ... it's trivial to fix though (the first byte just can't be 0x30... assuming you making the zero-length encodeing ":," and not "0:,") | 17:21 |
| @gwillen | encoding* | 17:21 |
| gmaxwell | also, making sure you handle very large numbers and negative numbers is fun. | 17:22 |
| @gwillen | well | 17:22 |
| @gwillen | if you take a reasonable approach to parsing, and you bail if it exceeds you limits, then it shouldn't be too bad | 17:23 |
| @gwillen | but yeah, that's a lot of if's | 17:23 |
| gmaxwell | also, if you just go and atoi, you'll also have locale specific behavior creep in. | 17:23 |
| @gwillen | oh dear, does atoi/strtol support separators? | 17:23 |
| @gwillen | that's annoying | 17:23 |
| phantomcircuit | gwillen, read right to left | 17:23 |
| phantomcircuit | left to right reading value to tmp, right to left reading tmp | 17:24 |
| gmaxwell | gwillen: Yup. | 17:25 |
| @gwillen | :-( | 17:25 |
| @gwillen | okay, that's not great | 17:25 |
| gmaxwell | (you have no clue how much software is actually mildly busted because of this) | 17:25 |
| @gwillen | :-( | 17:25 |
| @gwillen | a lot of code that I've written has been wrong because of this :-( | 17:26 |
| @gwillen | fortunately it was almost surely all hobby code that didn't matter | 17:26 |
| @gwillen | and the wrongness was basically immaterial | 17:26 |
| * gmaxwell invokes the gmaxwell no strings maximum once more. | 17:26 | |
| gmaxwell | yea, in lots of software you don't have adversarial inputs and its mostly harmless. | 17:27 |
| * nsh smiles | 17:30 | |
| nsh | problem is people write things, then other people transplant them and attach them to the adversary spigots | 17:31 |
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| nsh | eg, bash and env variables and CGI | 17:32 |
| @gwillen | yeah. | 17:32 |
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| gmaxwell | but yea, lots of stuff broken, for example virtually all flac implementations are screwed up... the replaygain tags for automatic levels adjustment are coded in ascii, and read using the locale-heeding C functions; so you can get files from people in germany which screw up horribly on english hosts and vice versa. | 17:33 |
| gmaxwell | even more fun, locale settings are not thread specific, so you can't wrap the calls easily in a library to force C locale and not risk screwing up other things... so you end up needing your own implementation. | 17:34 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Oct 26 00:00:29 2014 | ||
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