| --- Log opened Tue Oct 28 00:00:32 2014 | ||
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| Luke-Jr | sipa: what should I call it? :/ | 01:00 |
|---|---|---|
| sipa | why do you want to rename it? it processes a block... | 01:00 |
| Luke-Jr | sipa: because the behaviour is not what it has been up until and including 0.9 | 01:01 |
| Luke-Jr | and it's changed in a way that makes subtle bugs introduced by that confusion likely | 01:01 |
| sipa | imho the previous behaviour was just buggy - it could return validation failure about other blocks | 01:01 |
| Luke-Jr | hm | 01:02 |
| Luke-Jr | actually, it would be nice of submitblock gave a conclusive reject if a parent block was found to be invalid.. | 01:02 |
| Luke-Jr | ancestor* | 01:02 |
| sipa | you're right that there is a behaviour change, as it now does not report _any_ failure anymore of particular types anymore | 01:02 |
| sipa | but as that couldn't be relied upon anyway, i consider it to have been a bug to return it there in the first place | 01:03 |
| Luke-Jr | was there any case that the invalid state would have been entirely unrelated to the pblock before? I'm not sure there was? | 01:04 |
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| Luke-Jr | it should only process other blocks, if the new one is triggering a reorg - therefore, those blocks being processed are all ancestors of the current one | 01:05 |
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| * andy-logbot is logging | 01:05 | |
| sipa | right | 01:06 |
| sipa | orphan processing had already a special case to not return status via cvalidationstate | 01:06 |
| sipa | (which was a problem on itself, because it meant no reject messages for those) | 01:07 |
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| Luke-Jr | sipa: so you disagree with renaming it at all now? I should just change it back and document it? | 01:08 |
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| * Luke-Jr thinks it'd be best to rename it just to be safe, but whatever | 01:08 | |
| sipa | it won't hurt to rename it, but i have no better suggestions | 01:09 |
| Luke-Jr | ProcessNewBlock? | 01:10 |
| Luke-Jr | safe to assume they are always new? :p | 01:10 |
| sipa | ok | 01:11 |
| Luke-Jr | sipa: btw, kryo_ finally did shut up | 01:14 |
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| gandalf | http://www.reddit.com//r/Bitcoin/comments/2kgonk/monetas_brings_colored_coins_to_btcd/ | 03:31 |
| gandalf | isn't open transactions still subject to require trust on whoever is hosting the server? | 03:31 |
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| Eliel | gandalf: if you only use one server, then yes. However, as I've understood it, you can use as many servers as you want and only one of them needs to be trustworthy | 04:10 |
| Eliel | also, I'm not sure if opentransactions does it but it's technically possible to build a system where the system as a whole could be trustworthy even if none of the servers could be trusted, as long as you can trust that not all of them are dishonest in the same way. | 04:12 |
| gandalf | yeah but if all members of the voting pool go offline how can i retrieve my money? | 04:13 |
| gandalf | what if all members of a voting pool are dishonest? | 04:13 |
| Eliel | well, in that case you better make sure you run one of the servers you're using :P | 04:15 |
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| gmaxwell | 17:39 < justanotheruser> Wouldn't sidechains have full node security given that you could have fraud proofs that prove A) A block is the incorrect size using a merkle sum tree, B) A transaction script doesn't evaluate to true, C) A transaction has a previous tx that wasn't in the utxo at the time (proof that it was already spent) | 17:41 |
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| gmaxwell | only if (1) the rules were all identical (yuck) and even then not really because the proof can be arbritarily large. | 17:42 |
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| justanotheruser | gmaxwell: Even if all rules aren't identical, couldn't you just have full node security between identical child-chains? It appears to me that in case A the proof size would be either the size of a tx plus a branch of the merkle tree OR the entire merkle trees size. For B it would just be the size of a tx script (assuming the script isn't dependent on other tx in the utxo or something). For C, it appears the proof would ... | 17:48 |
| justanotheruser | ... be the size of a branch of a merkle tree plus the size of a tx. | 17:48 |
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| justanotheruser | I do agree that it would be difficult for chains with different rulesets to be full node security, but I think it may be possible if you standardize how an opcode is defined (among a set of sidechains that allow this feature). | 18:15 |
| gmaxwell | justanotheruser: No, not quite full node. If its identical and if all the requirements are met for fraud proof being compact (your list is not sufficient), and if you're not considering the censorship of the proof.. then you get something which is in-between because of the censorship risk. | 18:16 |
| justanotheruser | gmaxwell: how is a full node fraud proof more censorable than an SPV fraud proof? | 18:18 |
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| gmaxwell | SPV security implies an assumption about the hashrate, a minority of the hashrate cannot persistantly censor. | 18:20 |
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| justanotheruser | Oh, I thought you were talking about propogation censorship | 18:21 |
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| justanotheruser | I agree. Censorship means that there can only be spv security until full block proofs are a requirement assuming the same hashing power between chains. | 18:23 |
| justanotheruser | Or the same set of miners having the same hashing power I should say. If it is a different set of miners, two chains could have the same hashing power with one chain having a 51% miner. | 18:24 |
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| bitjedi | any coin devs want to take on a side alt-coin dev project (paid)? let me know. I have too many projects. | 18:25 |
| bitjedi | it's not a pegged-sidechain alt | 18:25 |
| bitjedi | because the economics for that are retarded | 18:26 |
| justanotheruser | bitjedi: #bitcoin-otc | 18:26 |
| bitjedi | ok | 18:26 |
| * bitjedi slithers back into the shadows | 18:26 | |
| amiller | here's a thing that's bothering me about the usual presentation of sidechains, this is inspired from a conversation with zooko | 18:28 |
| amiller | there's no difference generally between "inflating" a coin by printing more money to give to miners, and imposing a "tax" where a portion of everyone's money is taken to give to miners | 18:28 |
| amiller | even though there's no real difference, i think the former is perceived as more tolerable than the latter. | 18:29 |
| amiller | however, in sidechains, it's basically recommended to flip that around. | 18:29 |
| gmaxwell | I think both are non-starters and are uninteresting. | 18:29 |
| amiller | if miners on a sidechain are going to receive mining fees, then it either has to come from inflating the sidechain coin relative to its bitcoin peg, or it has to come from reducing sidechain user's holdings | 18:30 |
| maaku | amiller: there is a difference, but it's OT here | 18:31 |
| amiller | if both of those are non-starters (and based on the sidechains paper) i guess you're recommending having sidechain mining rewards only come from transaction fes | 18:32 |
| amiller | fees | 18:32 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: it comes from the same place Bitcoin miners fees come from long term; transaction fees. | 18:32 |
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| * BlueMatt likes namecoin as a sidechain - the fees people expect to pay for namespace/updates make for a less negative feeling when paying fees which go to miner security | 18:42 | |
| BlueMatt | ie people are already used to 10$/yr for a domain, not so much transaction fees (mostly they just dont see them, but still) | 18:42 |
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| Taek | demurrage/inflation makes sense to me for miner fees. The people with coins sitting in the sidechain/altcoin have a vested interest in it staying secure | 20:45 |
| Taek | it's more of a luxury if fees alone are sufficient | 20:45 |
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| justanotheruser | Taek: the funny thing is miners can implement demmurage as a softfork whenever they want | 20:47 |
| justanotheruser | Taek: also, at least two of the names on the sidechains paper would agree with you | 20:48 |
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| BlueMatt | justanotheruser: huh? no they cant! | 21:20 |
| BlueMatt | justanotheruser: only if the sidechain is set up to auto-demmurage on stolen coins | 21:20 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: they could freeze all outputs that don't honour their demurrage rules | 21:21 |
| Luke-Jr | so technically, miners could enforce demurrage on bitcoin today | 21:22 |
| BlueMatt | Luke-Jr: that would be a soft-fork to require miner fees, essentially | 21:22 |
| BlueMatt | not the same thing | 21:22 |
| Luke-Jr | pretty much the same thing IMO *shrug* | 21:22 |
| BlueMatt | to make it equivalent they'd need to keep 51% forever | 21:23 |
| BlueMatt | so not at all the same thing | 21:23 |
| justanotheruser | 00:22 < BlueMatt> to make it equivalent they'd need to keep 51% forever | 21:23 |
| justanotheruser | that is what a softfork requires after all | 21:23 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: that's true of any softfork | 21:23 |
| BlueMatt | softfork requires more than miners, remember... | 21:23 |
| BlueMatt | for a softfork to be a softfork people have to enforce it as well | 21:23 |
| BlueMatt | otherwise its just a 51% attack | 21:24 |
| justanotheruser | BlueMatt: if you define a 51% attack that way, yeah | 21:24 |
| Luke-Jr | it's soft because it only requires miners | 21:24 |
| BlueMatt | no, they are two very different concepts | 21:24 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: only miners have ever been considered in proposals for softforks | 21:24 |
| BlueMatt | HUH? | 21:24 |
| @gwillen | welllll, it doesn't practically speaking require the cooperation of nonminers | 21:24 |
| @gwillen | the outcome will be the same whether they cooperate or not | 21:25 |
| BlueMatt | yes, and then its a 51% attack | 21:25 |
| @gwillen | so, maybe at some moral or theoretical level, fine | 21:25 |
| BlueMatt | the difference is without the cooperation of non-miners, people who are pissed can go buy hashpower | 21:25 |
| @gwillen | but that doesn't really matter in practice | 21:25 |
| @gwillen | hmm | 21:25 |
| BlueMatt | but in a softfork that doesnt help | 21:25 |
| @gwillen | yeah, that's true; if all the merchants switch to your softfork then the hashpower that doesn't switch doesn't matter | 21:26 |
| Luke-Jr | a softfork isn't a softfork if it doesn't maintain 51% of miners | 21:26 |
| BlueMatt | yes, then it actually is a softfork via economic majority :) | 21:26 |
| BlueMatt | Luke-Jr: yes it is! | 21:26 |
| Luke-Jr | no, the behaviour is essentially equivalent to a hardfork if it drops below 51% | 21:26 |
| BlueMatt | if you do a softfork and then 99% of miners decide they dont want it anymore, the rules still apply | 21:26 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: not to old nodes | 21:26 |
| BlueMatt | you just lose 99% of mininer power to any new nodes | 21:26 |
| justanotheruser | BlueMatt: all softforks require a mining majority anyways. The only difference is the majority of full nodes may not use the softfork (which has probably been true for previous softforks) | 21:26 |
| Luke-Jr | softfork isn't a hardfork because old nodes follow it | 21:26 |
| BlueMatt | yes, but this is why softforks require buy-in from lots of the community....otherwise its only a softfork to a few people | 21:27 |
| BlueMatt | justanotheruser: nope, actually... | 21:27 |
| Luke-Jr | if old nodes follow the more-work non-softforked chain, then the softfork is essentially a hardfork | 21:27 |
| BlueMatt | softforks do to be enforced for old clients, but new clients can fork at will (ofc it gets fuzze depending on your definition of softfork) | 21:27 |
| BlueMatt | Luke-Jr: depends on your definition | 21:28 |
| justanotheruser | BlueMatt: new clients can't fork at will. They require a miner majority to softfork | 21:28 |
| BlueMatt | softfork definition is usually that its a stricly smaller set of valid transactions | 21:28 |
| BlueMatt | justanotheruser: what??? | 21:28 |
| justanotheruser | BlueMatt: I should ask the same of you. | 21:28 |
| BlueMatt | justanotheruser: any set of users can fork at will based on some softfork rules | 21:28 |
| BlueMatt | justanotheruser: if they're not the economic majority it doesnt matter much | 21:29 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: a softfork without miner support is a hardfork because it makes what was previously "not the best chain" and makes it "the best chain" - same as making an invalid transaction valid | 21:29 |
| justanotheruser | BlueMatt: new clients that fork without miner support are hardforking | 21:29 |
| BlueMatt | but if bitpay+coinbase+all exchanges+all merchants decided they wanted fees to be paid to them in all transactions...they can go fork and do so | 21:29 |
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| BlueMatt | Luke-Jr: ok, yes, this is where it just matters on what your definition of soft vs hardfork is, frankly I dont know what the consensus is here | 21:29 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: to exclude that case, negates the meaningfulness of the distinction | 21:30 |
| Luke-Jr | the only purpose to having two separate terms "softfork" vs "hardfork" is because of the distinctive difference | 21:30 |
| BlueMatt | well it does still have one distinction: old clients can switch to the forked chain | 21:30 |
| Luke-Jr | can, but won't. | 21:30 |
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| Luke-Jr | no practical difference | 21:30 |
| BlueMatt | whether its smaller or not is important, but not all | 21:30 |
| BlueMatt | well, maybe the new fork gets more mining power slower? | 21:30 |
| BlueMatt | possible is actually important here in the longer run, depends on how long you dont have 51% mining power | 21:31 |
| Luke-Jr | maybe | 21:31 |
| * Luke-Jr debates trusting 0.9.x, or waiting out for 0.10.x | 21:32 | |
| justanotheruser | Luke-Jr: can you elaborate on why 0.10.x may be a hardfork? | 21:33 |
| BlueMatt | ->#bitcoin-dev, but I would be hesitant to trust 0.10...maybe till 0.10.X | 21:33 |
| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: huh? why would it be? | 21:33 |
| BlueMatt | too big a release | 21:33 |
| BlueMatt | justanotheruser: I believe it was not related to the previous conversation | 21:33 |
| justanotheruser | Luke-Jr: you were discussing that a bug may cause it to be with wumpus in -dev iirc | 21:33 |
| Luke-Jr | BlueMatt: yeah, but is it worth upgrading to 0.9.x for just a few months? :p | 21:33 |
| justanotheruser | Luke-Jr: http://hastebin.com/yedelezazo.xml | 21:42 |
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| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: oh, that. just pure risk | 21:51 |
| Luke-Jr | more code churn = more risk of hardforking accidentally | 21:52 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Oct 29 00:00:33 2014 | ||
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