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| OP_NULL | "In Node the forging process is based on a Proof of Activity [..] PoA is a total different concept, and is not a fork of either PoW or PoS." | 09:31 |
|---|---|---|
| OP_NULL | "Each node’s active time will be recorded and calculated in seconds, since its last connection. This way a TimeHeight will be determined and used in the algorithm." | 09:31 |
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| * nsh expresses total dubious response | 09:35 | |
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| OP_NULL | I had a look at the client to see if that was easier to parse than their white paper, but it’s 13,000 lines of ridiculously obfuscated JavaScript. fairly obvious why. | 09:39 |
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| sipa | their whitepaper is 13000 lines of obfuscated javascript? :o | 09:41 |
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| OP_NULL | there's a whitepaper with no real detail and an obfsucated JS client. neither are very readable. | 09:42 |
| nsh | i'm 4/19 pages into the paper and it's tough going | 09:43 |
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| Baz___ | which whitepaper | 10:01 |
| nsh | http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/452.pdf | 10:03 |
| tacotime | i don't think that PoA paper has anything to do with Node | 10:04 |
| OP_NULL | nsh: we are talking about different things. | 10:04 |
| tacotime | the tl;dr of PoA (which is more or less a fork of PoS) is figure 2 of iddo's paper | 10:04 |
| tacotime | s/fork/form | 10:04 |
| tacotime | there's a second paper i think that details a pure PoS form of it | 10:05 |
| OP_NULL | nsh: I was ridiculing an altcoin with dubious security claims. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zDlGZn7sICIA8bUPhe6jPPzGOxA4YgTgi6J4XilFpgs/edit | 10:05 |
| tacotime | and ethereum was saying "we'll use PoA maybe along with PoW" | 10:05 |
| tacotime | but ethereum says a lot of things | 10:05 |
| OP_NULL | tacotime: what are they doing this week? | 10:07 |
| * tacotime shrugs | 10:07 | |
| tacotime | they've been quieter since they raised their money. | 10:07 |
| tacotime | vitalik still pushes daily commits though | 10:08 |
| tacotime | https://github.com/ethereum/pyethereum/commits/master | 10:08 |
| tacotime | and gav is still working on the c++ version https://github.com/ethereum/cpp-ethereum/commits/develop | 10:09 |
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| nsh | ah, my bad | 10:10 |
| OP_NULL | tacotime: writing their client in mulitple languages seems an odd choice. | 10:12 |
| tacotime | OP_NULL: I always thought so too, especially when there's so much to be done | 10:13 |
| tacotime | writing a c++ impl in this time and age seems weird in general | 10:13 |
| tacotime | it looks like there's some kind of uncle weighting function too for GHOST | 10:14 |
| tacotime | https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/blob/429dd2a100f3b9e2b612b59bcb48f79a805cd6f9/chain/chain_manager.go#L118-L127 | 10:14 |
| tacotime | but the go client otherwise doesn't use it? | 10:14 |
| tacotime | https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/blob/429dd2a100f3b9e2b612b59bcb48f79a805cd6f9/chain/block_manager.go#L283 | 10:16 |
| tacotime | there too. | 10:16 |
| tacotime | it looks like the difficulty of the uncle blocks is just added. | 10:16 |
| OP_NULL | must more than multiply the workload to have three clients in development | 10:17 |
| tacotime | well if you check the code you see there's a lot of consensus failure in the comments | 10:18 |
| jaromil | funny reading your evaluations guys. I don't feel alone so much. sometimes I fear to be too critical. but rly. ethereum? | 10:19 |
| tacotime | some of it is rather perplexing too, e.g. bool State::amIJustParanoid(BlockChain const& _bc) | 10:19 |
| jaromil | while i'm planning some development myself i get dragged to it by enthusiastic non-technical colleagues and... I'm embarassed. | 10:20 |
| tacotime | in terms of readability their Go code > Python code > C++ code. libethereum/State.cpp in C++ has a ton of GHOST related code, but i'm not totally sure what it's doing. i'm curious to see how the first real implementation of GHOST works out, though. | 10:21 |
| jaromil | yea. still hoping i'm wrong as it would be could to have many of the marketed things. but rly? | 10:22 |
| jaromil | s/could/cool/ | 10:22 |
| jaromil | lost in conditionals | 10:22 |
| jaromil | definitely freudian lapsus | 10:22 |
| OP_NULL | I'll be impressed if they mangage to get all of the behaviour the same between go/python/cpp | 10:23 |
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| Taek | justanotheruser: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=851119.0, it seems like you can actually increase decentralization by having mining fees that pays out slowly over time | 11:44 |
| tacotime | i proposed that a long ass time around, i think 18 mo? | 11:44 |
| tacotime | and i think other people probably did before me. i never have good, new ideas, heh. | 11:45 |
| tacotime | though for me it was more a way to deal with fees incentivization and prevent hoarding. idk if it'd actually work that way. | 11:45 |
| Taek | I know the idea has been around for a while, but I don't think it was explored as much in depth | 11:46 |
| tacotime | but basically you mine blocks and don't know what reward you're going to get, and then in the future you get some reward over time spread out. | 11:46 |
| tacotime | from fees. | 11:46 |
| Taek | at least, the part about a mining pool increasing decentralization is something I don't remember reading. It's entirely possible that that's also been discussed before though | 11:47 |
| Taek | *mining fee pool | 11:47 |
| tacotime | i don't recall bringing it up. | 11:48 |
| tacotime | and i still don't understand microsoft's proposed solution to the red balloons problem, though it does have a lot of pretty math. :) | 11:49 |
| Taek | I was originally intending to propose a solutoin to the red balloons thing in this post | 11:50 |
| Taek | but I think it needs more polishing | 11:50 |
| Taek | the general idea is that you combine the mining fee pool with a transaction fee decay | 11:50 |
| Taek | so if you have a transaction that has a fee worth 20 coins if submitted at block X, but 5 coins at block X+1 and 5/4 coins at block X+2, then the miner's largest expected gain is when the transaction makes it into block X, regardless of whether the miner is the one who finds X or not | 11:52 |
| Taek | because the miner's expected return for mining block X+1 is 5 coins if the transaction appeared in block X, but only 2.5 coins if the transaction first appears in block X+1 | 11:53 |
| phantomcircuit | Taek, it's actually a very powerful effect which exists to a limited extent today | 11:55 |
| phantomcircuit | (the 100 block coinbase maturity rule) | 11:55 |
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| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: I don't see how maturity is relevant | 11:57 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, maturity effectively delays the block reward | 11:58 |
| phantomcircuit | giving an incentive to not break things | 11:58 |
| phantomcircuit | the longer the delay the higher the incentive to keep mining more blocks without doing weird things | 11:58 |
| gmaxwell | Taek: you can't force miners to pay fees forward because miners can just demand people submitting transactions to them do so out of band. (not via 'fees') | 12:01 |
| Taek | "pay fees forward" what do you mean by that? | 12:02 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, oh right | 12:02 |
| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: at most you would reorg to the point where you won your last block | 12:02 |
| phantomcircuit | hmm | 12:02 |
| justanotheruser | otherwise you would be performing this attack at the point you won your last block | 12:02 |
| phantomcircuit | it doesn't work for transaction fees i guess | 12:02 |
| phantomcircuit | but it does work well for the block reward | 12:02 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, actually how would you pay transaction fees to "whatever miner found block at height x" | 12:03 |
| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: pay to script redeemable by proof of inclusion on a sidechain maybe? | 12:09 |
| justanotheruser | paying on a sidechannel seems difficult in general to me since you would have to pay ~200% tx fees in order to give the miner his other 99% (assuming the reward is distributed between 100 blocks). | 12:11 |
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| tdlfbx | So I've had this idea floating in the back of my head for a while that dovetails nicely with the sidechains idea and/or atomic cross-chain transactions: | 12:53 |
| tdlfbx | A trade-secured blockchain. Rather than using PoW, use the amount of external resources traded into the blockchain as a measure of "spent resources" in deciding which fork is correct. | 12:54 |
| tdlfbx | Trades would have to commit to a single fork, and an attacker would have to spend more than the aggregate amount of trades to attack it. | 12:55 |
| tdlfbx | Anyone know of a similar idea? Anyone pursuing something along these lines? | 12:55 |
| justanotheruser | tdlfbx: what is the mechanism for ensuring the trades commit to a single fork? | 12:56 |
| tdlfbx | transactions could contain the merkle root of the fork you're trading into, for instance. | 12:57 |
| justanotheruser | so the blockchain is a merkle tree now? | 12:58 |
| tdlfbx | uh. what? No, just a reference to the last block. | 12:59 |
| tdlfbx | Because trades are two-sided, the blockchain you're trading *out* of also would contain the hash from the chain you're trading into. So you couldn't trade into two forks (it would be a double spend). | 13:00 |
| justanotheruser | ok, so I just have to reference the last block to put my tx in a new fork | 13:00 |
| tdlfbx | Yes, you have to choose a fork by referencing the last block. | 13:00 |
| tdlfbx | A la the SPV proofs in sidechains. | 13:00 |
| justanotheruser | ok, and the main blockchain is the blockchain with the highest amount transferred sum? | 13:02 |
| tdlfbx | Yes. | 13:02 |
| tdlfbx | As valued in other currencies. | 13:02 |
| justanotheruser | tdlfbx: so it's vulnerable to NaS | 13:03 |
| tdlfbx | What's NaS? | 13:03 |
| justanotheruser | nothing at stake | 13:03 |
| justanotheruser | I can buy a bunch of old private keys that once could be used to spend tokens, but now cannot and rewrite history from the point these assets could spend tokens. | 13:04 |
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| tdlfbx | It's possible there's a NaS problem. One possible way around that is to make the trade irreversible. If you chose the wrong fork, you lose your coins. | 13:05 |
| justanotheruser | how do I know you chose the wrong fork? | 13:08 |
| justanotheruser | what is the "wrong" fork? | 13:08 |
| tdlfbx | The one that doesn't get confirmed after some time. | 13:08 |
| justanotheruser | ? | 13:08 |
| tdlfbx | I don't particularly like this idea. But it's a way to make there be something "at stake". | 13:08 |
| justanotheruser | tdlfbx: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf | 13:09 |
| tdlfbx | Well your trade is into a particular fork. Your coins won't exist on other forks. | 13:09 |
| tdlfbx | I've read it. | 13:10 |
| tdlfbx | The point is that bitcoin makes miners expend external resources. PoS fails because the resources are internal (among other reasons...). | 13:10 |
| tdlfbx | I'm just proposing to make that spent external resource be the external assets traded into the chain. | 13:11 |
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| andytoshi | tdlfbx: note that the blocks are supposed to commit to transactions ... so you have bidirectional commitments and there might be some fatal flaw in the details of that | 13:34 |
| andytoshi | tdlfbx: other things to consider are "why are people incentivized to share the same history?" can you rate-throttle the number of histories to give everyone a chance to catch up? what happens in case of reorgs? | 13:35 |
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| andytoshi | these aren't fatal problems, but i recommend you try to write this up in some detail to see if it's workable | 13:35 |
| tdlfbx | @andytoshi thanks, lots to think about. It's just an idea at this point. | 13:36 |
| tdlfbx | I've been disappointed that the atomic-cross-chain trading seems to be stalled. (which would be required for this) | 13:36 |
| tdlfbx | Despite the sidechains paper talking about it. | 13:36 |
| andytoshi | tdlfbx: fwiw we don't know that it's impossible to do cross-chain swaps without needing bip62 | 13:38 |
| andytoshi | sorry, triple-negative ... i mean "it is an interesting problem to try and do swaps in a malleability-proof way" | 13:38 |
| tdlfbx | There's a triple negative in that s... | 13:38 |
| andytoshi | :P | 13:38 |
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| andytoshi | the other problems of e.g. peer discovery and UI are things that are useful beyond cross-chain swaps, so those would also be great to investigate | 13:40 |
| andytoshi | right now i am slowly defrosting my rust code to start work on wizards-wallet again, plus i have two research projects to do (one wizardly, one for school), so i have no time :( | 13:41 |
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| tdlfbx | Yes there are 1000 reasons I want to do cross-chain swaps, and i'm disappointed that they don't seem to be forthcoming. | 13:42 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 18:54 | |
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| justanotheruser | "If every transaction includes an nLockTime that's the current/next block, its fees can't be claimed without fully catching up to the blockchain. This means that rewinding 10 blocks in order to get all their fees requires re-mining all 10 blocks." | 22:34 |
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| justanotheruser | I don't see how that's any different from the current situation. You can't include tx already in a block anyways. | 22:36 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Nov 08 00:00:44 2014 | ||
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