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gmaxwell | If anyone else is at IETF this wek and wants to get togeather please feel free to ping. | 02:16 |
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-!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 05:29 | |
-!- Topic set by andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] [Fri Aug 22 14:51:37 2014] | 05:29 | |
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-!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 185 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 183 normal] | 05:29 | |
-!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 05:29 | |
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instagibbs | justanotheruser: yeah it doesn't stop the attacker from simply cloning the last 10 blocks, taking all fees. The proposal appears to be a variant of "pay txn fees forward" with some smoothing to discourage sniping. | 06:09 |
instagibbs | stopping rewinding could be done by txns including a hash of the most recently seen block, committing it to that branch. Downside seems to be a re-org means all transactions after the re-org get "orphaned" | 06:11 |
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instagibbs | I kind of like that latter solution, as assuming dark hashpower is quite liquid, you'd at least only let that dark hashing power double spend their inputs instead of fee sniping | 06:18 |
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* nsh wonders if instgibbs has used another nickname | 06:29 | |
nsh | *instagibbs | 06:29 |
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OP_NULL | instagibbs: "dark hash power" seems like a rather ill defined concept. the way I’ve seen it described is that people have huge farms of obsolete equipment who don’t mine anymore due to it not being profitable, and can suddenly spin it up to attack when there’s an opportunity. | 08:12 |
OP_NULL | I take issue with that being particularly probable as it’s normally described. imagine I have my 1% farm sitting around, I see a block that’s got a high fee, I’ve now got to fire up 30 megawatt of hardware and cooling, which is just impossible on a short timeframe. | 08:13 |
OP_NULL | what seems more likely is that a large farm alters their behaviour from the network norm to being rational but immoral. i.e., they have no problem aggressively trying to double spend fees, ditching all free transactions and do little tricks like trying to orphan blocks that orphan theirs (I’m surprised big pools don’t do this now, actually, they should be). | 08:13 |
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kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Two-factor%20authentication%20for%20the%20Bitcoin%20protocol.pdf | 08:14 |
kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Realizing%20two-factor%20authentication%20for%20the%20Bitcoin%20protocol.pdf | 08:14 |
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OP_NULL | kanzure: somebody should tell the author that BIP32 exists, and that they don't need a RNG on the android device at all past the initial setup. | 08:18 |
Eliel | OP_NULL: a lot of miner hardware is also such that you can improve efficiency by lowering your hashrate. In such a case I'd expect it to be much smaller of a task to switch the farm to full blast with lower efficiency. | 08:24 |
OP_NULL | kanzure: that system is quite cute, but it has different properties than P2SH multisig. I'm not sure people care enough about transaction size to end up using it, most wallets haven't got around to using compressed keys and they've existed for 3 years. | 08:26 |
kanzure | huh, "First of all, it would be visible on the blockchain that multiple signatures were used" | 08:29 |
kanzure | for some reason that did not occur to include in my threat models | 08:29 |
kanzure | seems reasonable enough: it's totally irrelevant if everyone else knows whether or not multiple signatures have to be used to sign, so it's best not to offer that information voluntarily by default | 08:30 |
OP_NULL | what effect does exposing that actually have though? | 08:31 |
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kanzure | at the moment there are less multisig p2sh transactions than other types, so at the very least correlation | 08:33 |
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instagibbs | nsh: long-time lurker; I post infrequently. | 08:35 |
* nsh nods | 08:35 | |
instagibbs | OP_NULL: I think of dark hashing power as any machine which isn't being used actively. Presumably these days it means it's inefficient compared to alternatives, but not necessarily that way in the future | 08:36 |
instagibbs | assuming we approach some $/hash hardware that anyone can get at any amount(100% liquid I suppose), that doesn't mean everyone is going to turn it on at same time | 08:38 |
nsh | as long as we put everybody on the same electrical grid, we can inherit some pretty cool security properties about maximum hash power delta | 08:40 |
OP_NULL | instagibbs: if I am a "dark" miner who sees a chance of profit, I'm going to want to be getting mining as quickly as possible. your window is going to be quite small. | 08:40 |
instagibbs | OP_NULL: I'm assuming 100% liquidity of miner power, like magic. Clearly not even close to true today | 08:40 |
instagibbs | but let's say we get down to some reasonably small fabrication size | 08:41 |
instagibbs | gets commoditized | 08:41 |
instagibbs | it'll be a very different story | 08:41 |
instagibbs | this is more long-term though, not relevant today | 08:42 |
OP_NULL | commodity mining hardware is fairly scary as a thing, actually. if a lot of people have almost no stake in the network they are mining on, there's a very real chance they'll just sell their hashpower to whoever the highest bidder is. | 08:43 |
instagibbs | exactly | 08:43 |
instagibbs | im not sure what that does to consensus; people could fire up ASICs, rewrite some history, get fees/whatever. In the presence of interested mining pools, I guess the mining pool would blacklist such a fork | 08:44 |
instagibbs | seems like a MAD situation | 08:44 |
instagibbs | either people don't do it, or consensus will break for a while | 08:45 |
OP_NULL | kanzure: good point. 1.5% of all BTC are in P2SH, a lot more than I expected. | 08:45 |
kanzure | OP_NULL: http://p2sh.info/transactions-per-block | 08:45 |
instagibbs | cool chart | 08:46 |
OP_NULL | it's interesting that you can see weekends in that graphic. | 08:46 |
instagibbs | last point on long-term mining(been thinking about his for a while): The only slam-dunk scenario where dark hashing isn't too dangerous is people mining at a loss as a given. Mining as -EV game. | 08:49 |
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justanotheruser | kanzure: it would be nice if they labeled their colors | 09:05 |
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lechuga_ | this is topic tangential but curious if any1 has experience w/aes key wrap (rfc3394) | 16:52 |
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OP_NULL | going back to the topic of interesting scripts, 567a53d1ce19ce3d07711885168484439965501536d0d0294c5d46d46c10e53b takes the cake really. it's script manages to break at least 3 commonly used pieces of Bitcoin software that didn't read the wiki properly. | 18:35 |
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kanzure | BlueMatt: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoinninja/pull/10 | 19:18 |
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Luke-Jr | kanzure: our list of links now gets a link to a list of links? O.o | 19:45 |
OP_NULL | Luke-Jr: could be worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lists_of_lists | 19:46 |
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Luke-Jr | XD | 19:49 |
kanzure | Luke-Jr: could be worse https://github.com/jashmenn/bitcoin-reading-list/pull/9 | 19:51 |
Luke-Jr | :D | 19:53 |
kanzure | now it's more like a graph than a list | 19:54 |
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Luke-Jr | kefkius: unsolicited PMs are bad ettiquitte, and repeating it more than once is spam. don't do it again. | 20:39 |
kefkius | Err my bad | 20:41 |
kefkius | Noted. | 20:41 |
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kefkius | Luke-Jr: I read that you've written some interesting tx scripts. Do you know of a collection of these? | 20:44 |
kefkius | Just walked right into "the blockchain" as an answer.. | 20:45 |
OP_NULL | it's not like interesting things are hard to find. almost every single transaction is P2PKH, the ones that are left are usually interesting. | 20:45 |
kefkius | What I mean is: P2SH scripts | 20:46 |
OP_NULL | only 1679 transactions in the whole history of Bitcoin aren't P2SH/P2PKH/multisig/OP_RETURN/raw pubkey. | 20:47 |
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Luke-Jr | OP_NULL: are you counting testnets? | 20:48 |
OP_NULL | of P2SH, only 197 have interesting scripts. | 20:48 |
OP_NULL | Luke-Jr: for testnet3 there are 7063 interesting, 73 interesting redeemed P2SH of a total 2.7M transactions. | 20:50 |
OP_NULL | interesting is probably over stating it. they're mostly garbage, I haven't seen any yet that make any sense. | 20:52 |
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* kefkius discovers that he should parse the chain himself. Thanks all | 21:03 | |
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petertodd | OP_NULL: thanks, but I gotta say I and others have done much better than that tx... for starters there's the time "Satoshi" broke Electrum and bitcoin-ruby in a novel way with transaction 77822fd6663c665104119cb7635352756dfc50da76a92d417ec1a12c518fad69, that also simultaneously included a patch to fix the problem https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=271761.msg2920116#msg2920116 | 23:29 |
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