| --- Log opened Wed Nov 19 00:00:30 2014 | ||
| --- Day changed Wed Nov 19 2014 | ||
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| MRL-Relay | [smooth] wom1 | 00:35 |
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| HM | Kinda sad when you're sat pondering the best capitalization of SECp256k1 | 04:08 |
| HM | I guess all lowercase is used in the document itself, so i'll go with that | 04:08 |
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| sipa | that's what i use as well | 04:14 |
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| HM | hmm | 04:32 |
| HM | blast | 04:40 |
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| fenn | hello skyraider | 07:34 |
| skyraider | hi | 07:35 |
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| andytoshi | tp | 07:52 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/The%20physics%20of%20information%20processing%20superobjects%20-%20Anders%20Sandberg%20-%201999.pdf | 10:34 |
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| Taek | gavinandresen: can you explain more about exponential subjective scoring? Isn't that dangerous to consensus, because newcomers will have a different scoring metric than existing nodes? | 10:51 |
| gavinandresen | Taek: can’t get into it right now, busy with other things… ping me in a few days | 10:53 |
| Taek | sure | 10:53 |
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| nsh | context is: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/10/03/slasher-ghost-developments-proof-stake/ ? | 12:05 |
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| OP_NULL | nsh: I can't find where it was talked about, but I don't think it's that. it was something to do with the way you evaluate your peers when they have a higher height than you. | 18:22 |
| nsh | k | 18:22 |
| OP_NULL | nsh: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2014-11-17/?msg=25672584&page=3 | 18:23 |
| nsh | ty | 18:23 |
| OP_NULL | I find those blog posts very tiring to read, especially the one referenced in that link | 18:28 |
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| OP_NULL | even just from one post to the next the core concepts chop and change, it's not clear what is whimsy and what is actually being presented as a plan. | 18:31 |
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| manaka | are there any papers that better introduce the concept of zero knowledge proofs? | 20:51 |
| manaka | also i am having some trouble understanding the counterparty protocol, are there papers on that? | 20:51 |
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| justanotheruser | manaka: does counterparty use zkps? | 20:54 |
| justanotheruser | oh, thats separate | 20:54 |
| manaka | lol i don't think so | 20:54 |
| manaka | yeah | 20:54 |
| manaka | that would be something | 20:54 |
| manaka | i do not know of any zkp implementation on bitcoin at the moment. | 20:54 |
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| justanotheruser | manaka: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/simple_verifyable_execution.txt | 20:58 |
| justanotheruser | I'm guessing you want that | 20:59 |
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| gmaxwell | manaka: a regular digital signature is a | 20:59 |
| justanotheruser | for counterparty, you probably want their whitepaper | 20:59 |
| gmaxwell | zero knowledge proof. | 20:59 |
| justanotheruser | I don't understand very well what counterparty accomplishes though | 20:59 |
| manaka | me neither | 21:00 |
| gmaxwell | manaka: it proves you know a secret without you learning anything about its secret. | 21:00 |
| manaka | i believe it provides a utility of buying lots of issued tokens with the counterparty token. | 21:00 |
| justanotheruser | counterparty, not zkp gmaxwell | 21:00 |
| manaka | but in p2p networks there will always be a possibility for information leakeage gmaxwell | 21:00 |
| manaka | else zkp only proves something exists, i just don't see how useful it can be | 21:01 |
| gmaxwell | justanotheruser: I was responding to the first question. The second is almost completely uninteresting. :) | 21:01 |
| justanotheruser | oh, how zkps are implemented in bitcoin... | 21:01 |
| manaka | yeah | 21:02 |
| manaka | use cases for it | 21:02 |
| gmaxwell | manaka: The whole idea of a _zero knowledge_ proof is that there is no leakage. (of course something could implement the protocol wrong or have other software bugs, or a sloppy user or...) | 21:02 |
| gmaxwell | The wikipedia article gives a reasonable overview of the high level concept. | 21:03 |
| manaka | thanks gmaxwell | 21:05 |
| manaka | in your opinion gmaxwell do you think a dht/blockchain hybrid could exist? | 21:05 |
| manaka | or mini blockchain on several subsets of a decentralized hash table? | 21:06 |
| manaka | i just don't think proofs inside a blockchain will ever match the speed of a dht | 21:06 |
| gmaxwell | hm? a blockchain can be seen as a kind of DHT, a D1HT (one hop hash table). This form has the best possible performance. | 21:07 |
| justanotheruser | lol | 21:08 |
| gmaxwell | But, importantly to us, it's also pretty much toe only form of 'dht' that has a real security story in an adversarial model _at all_. | 21:08 |
| gmaxwell | justanotheruser: you think I kid, google the term. :) people write research papers even on things as simple as that. | 21:08 |
| justanotheruser | gmaxwell: this is a bit of a speculative question, but do you think it likely that a zkp will be made that is less computationally intensive than a snark? | 21:10 |
| gmaxwell | (well, it's strictly true that its the only form with a security story, the DHT systems like freenet and CJDNS that have a "friends only" topology, have attack resistance too.. but their usability is poor) | 21:10 |
| gmaxwell | justanotheruser: less expensive in what respect? | 21:10 |
| justanotheruser | gmaxwell: creation | 21:11 |
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| gmaxwell | Well the scipr lab folks latest paper is somewhat cheaper for the prover... and lays the groundwork perhaps for further optimizations. The slowness in libsnark (and later work) mostly comes from having perform costly cryptographic operations per element in a circuit describing the function from very primitive parts (e.g. basic boolean or arithemetic gates). | 21:13 |
| gmaxwell | Presumably ZKPs can be created in the same cryptographic framework that do more work per element, and thus could be faster to evaluate. | 21:14 |
| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: fast verification is more interesting IMO :p | 21:14 |
| gmaxwell | verification is already quite fast. | 21:14 |
| Luke-Jr | gmaxwell: fast enough we can softfork it into bitcoin in the next year? | 21:14 |
| justanotheruser | Luke-Jr: fast and small proofs seem to done | 21:15 |
| justanotheruser | *be done | 21:15 |
| gmaxwell | maybe? there are other barriers than performance though. e.g. the field is not settled on parameters. The latest work requires a different family of curves specially constructed for them which you'd otherwise not prefer (slower in software). | 21:15 |
| justanotheruser | Assuming they're secure. I am wondering about something an average computer could create. | 21:16 |
| gmaxwell | justanotheruser: an average computer can create proofs with the libsnark stuff. At least of small programs like running sha256 64 times. (they apparently have proofs of that taking 30 seconds to create). | 21:16 |
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| justanotheruser | gmaxwell: I'm speaking more in terms of a miner creating a proof of the utxo and block with his client easily (even average joe using p2pool) | 21:18 |
| gmaxwell | justanotheruser: who cares how long it takes, you can let such things lag multiple blocks behind. | 21:18 |
| gmaxwell | well 'proof of the utxo' effectively requires a recursive proof to make it tractable at all, which is the latest work I was talking about. | 21:19 |
| Taek | couldn't you also outsource the proof? Announce the winning block, and then have some specialized party create proof? | 21:20 |
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| gmaxwell | presumably justanotheruser wants to tie it to mining, but I don't really see a reason to do that. | 21:21 |
| justanotheruser | gmaxwell: I assume it would be tied to mining anyways since a proof should be faster to verify than a block which increases a miners earnings. | 21:23 |
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| gmaxwell | nah, blocks are stupidly fast to verify assuming you're connected to the network. | 21:27 |
| gmaxwell | Since you'll have already verified all the transactions already. | 21:27 |
| gmaxwell | and you still need the data since you'll need it to construct a block spending outputs from the prior block. | 21:27 |
| justanotheruser | hmm | 21:28 |
| gmaxwell | though sure maybe the logical extension I've suggested before. ... where you never even disclose the transactions, just the final utxo set state.... | 21:28 |
| justanotheruser | at the very least, you would have full node security with a thin client as soon as a block comes out | 21:29 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. miner proves "I started with the state of the prior block, applied an unspecified number of permitted transactions, and ended up with this final utxo set state. | 21:29 |
| gmaxwell | justanotheruser: then thin clients could pay people to publish proofs... but really, some number of seconds delay is hardly that interesting... after all 1conf transactions are not irreverable in any case, so your security there is limited by reorgs not the risk if invalid blocks (unless you're talking very high value txn, in which case paying someone to run a full node and create the proofs doesn't seem like a big burden to me) | 21:31 |
| justanotheruser | yeah, it doesn't seem that important for miners to create the proofs unless they want this very small relay time improvement | 21:32 |
| gmaxwell | well in the model where all the tx data are forever hidden it makes sense because utxo that are born and die within a block never need to be visible to history. | 21:33 |
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| Taek | they don't need to be visible to history unless the proof creation requires knowing the entire history, which I imagine would be true | 21:50 |
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| gmaxwell | Taek: no, they don't need to be visible to history unconditionally. | 21:53 |
| gmaxwell | As you already have the proof for that block. | 21:53 |
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| Taek | but, when you are trying to figure out the next block, and you have block boxes behind you, how can you be sure that you aren't spending something that was already spent in one of the black boxes? You can create a proof based off of prior proofs? | 21:56 |
| Taek | I guess it could be possible. | 21:56 |
| manaka | have you guys checked out the zero hop distributed hash table?http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6569861&queryText%3DDistributed+hash+table | 21:57 |
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| gmaxwell | Taek: because you know the final utxo state. | 22:01 |
| gmaxwell | If a utxo exists you can spend it, otherwise you can't. | 22:01 |
| Taek | oh right not so magical at all | 22:02 |
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