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| gmaxwell | rusty: there are some writeups on that stuff elsewhere on this too, it's a kind of notion that is in a kind of unfortunate valley where its merely engineering work and not interesting to the academics, but big enough engineering work that it doesn't have super short term impact on bitcoin. | 00:48 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: One difference between your suggestions and mine which I'd be interested in your thoughts. I hashed with each transaction an array of backrefs (ie. blocks ago, transaction number), to allow proving an unknown input. That seems simpler than trees of UTXOs + produced + consumed outputs. | 01:33 |
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| gmaxwell | rusty: then you cannot spend an unconfirmed transaction? The design of bitcoin strongly decouples the transactions themselves from the chain; the chain just provides ordering, the txn themselves exist freestanding and can be validated independantly of the chain. | 01:34 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: blocksago == 0, though my implementation didn't do that. | 01:35 |
| gmaxwell | I mean, say you author a transaction spend ago 0 but then the unconfirmed confirms, but the spend hasn't yet. | 01:35 |
| gmaxwell | or the chain reorgs harmlessly, have you now invalidated transactions and require signers to come back out of their valults to resign? | 01:36 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: no, backrefs are inserted by miners, not part of transactions. | 01:36 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: they're simply extra metadata. | 01:37 |
| gmaxwell | oh, if it's not part of transactions then it's probably isomorphic. | 01:37 |
| gmaxwell | upto perhaps some efficiency differences. Commited state is something we've long wanted more of because it's useful for many other things, not just incremental validation... so that probably colors my assumptions. | 01:38 |
| gmaxwell | hm. actually if its just backrefs how do you incrementally discover a double spend? | 01:38 |
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| gmaxwell | e.g. tx10 spends coin A. You can form a backref to tx1 creating it... but really in the middle tx5 already spent that coin. | 01:39 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: it doesn't detect ds by itself, no | 01:40 |
| gmaxwell | Oh well with state commitments you can detect the double spends without there existing any full nodes. | 01:41 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: since the network is divided into shards, and the txs are ordered (such that same shard txs are adjacent), you'll detect ds anyway. | 01:41 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: yes, in your scheme even miners don't need to be full nodes. That's pretty sweet. | 01:42 |
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| gmaxwell | Are you making an additional assumption there. E.g. that there exists some node X who isn't me, who will check all of Y or my probablity of detection of a doublespend in Y is zero. (not sure if thats materially worse that 'my probablity of detecting is at least $small, even if I am almost alone in being honest'; different in any case) | 01:44 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: sorry, was distracted. | 01:51 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: assumption is that every node has full knowledge of at least 2 shards, so probability should be low. | 01:52 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: Simplified txs only allow inputs and outputs to cross two shards, which helps. | 01:53 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: it's trivially easy to tell if you know all txs out of your shard (due to tx ordering in block), txs in are best-effort. | 01:54 |
| gmaxwell | okay, too tired to think about the implications of that, its a very different design. | 01:55 |
| gmaxwell | I'm not sure what it gains over a design with a common merkelized state. May be more obvious to me in the morning. | 01:56 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: yeah, I had to bend things pretty badly to make it work :(. That's why I'm coming around to your scheme. | 01:56 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: oh, and in practice the tx+amount hashtree will probably have to be in addition to the normal tx hashtree, assuming sidechains have to look bitcoin-like for tx proofs. | 01:57 |
| gmaxwell | well sidechains only should have to look bitcoin like enough for the recovery txn, the other parts could be fairly different. | 01:58 |
| gmaxwell | Here is a fun additional thought that I hadn't had back when that text was written. Imagine you are a thin client, and there are several full nodes claiming different things about the validity of a given block. Also imagine that the bitcoin blockchain and its commitments is unchanged as it is now. | 01:58 |
| gmaxwell | It's actually possible for our hapless litenode to figure figure out the truth if at least one of their peers is telling the truth with only O(log()) queries. | 01:59 |
| phantomcircuit | i think you accidentally n | 02:00 |
| gmaxwell | if I'm truncated tell me where. | 02:01 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: well, AFAICT an honest node can disprove any spurious claim (eg. "that input never existed!", which is the hard one). | 02:02 |
| phantomcircuit | O(log()) | 02:02 |
| phantomcircuit | O(log(n)) | 02:02 |
| gmaxwell | The notion is that the peers keep merkelized transcripts of their validation progress along the chain (e.g. all the data they looked up and what its results were, etc). If no one is faulty, the hashes will agree (process is determinstic). If the hashes don't agree then you can do a log() operations search against a pair of peers to find the point where they diverge. Then check to see which of them follows the rules. | 02:02 |
| phantomcircuit | har har | 02:02 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: at the time I'd written that text I'd assumed it was impossible to efficiently prove, e.g. "the subsidy paid out in this block is correct". with the current blockchain structure... not without giving the peer all the transactions being spent (which can be a _lot_ of data) | 02:03 |
| gmaxwell | and thats so, in a non-interactive context, unless there are additional commitments as the proofs page talks about... but in the interactive context there don't even need to be blockchain data changes.. which is interesting at least. | 02:04 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: I see, but this still assumes a full peer exists. If the miner is the only one who knows the entire block, you still need your enhancements as no one can call her on it. I preferred the original "no full nodes" premise: more ambitious :) | 02:05 |
| gmaxwell | yea sure sure. Just an additional thought. The more complete vision is more interesting. | 02:06 |
| gmaxwell | But the technique used for the interactive thing could be used to provide all kinds of interesting summaries of blockchain data, that you might not want general nodes being responsible for maintaining, and thats kind of neat too. | 02:07 |
| gmaxwell | (just thought I'd mention it because it was the sort of thing I wish I'd realized earlier.) | 02:07 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Nov 26 06:33:09 2014 | ||
| --- Log opened Wed Nov 26 12:12:07 2014 | ||
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| bramm | The problem with finding things which require random access lookups is that there are lots of ways of leveraging sorting very effectively | 12:20 |
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| bramm | So you have to come up with a problem which somehow forces actual random accesses rather than repeated sorts | 12:21 |
| tromp_ | it's hard to imagine sorting being effective at finding cycles | 12:22 |
| bramm | If you're looking for a cycle of length N you can do it with N sorts | 12:22 |
| bramm | Which might require more memory but fewer random accesses | 12:23 |
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| bramm | Really using memory and doing random accesses are two different kinds of work | 12:25 |
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| --- Log opened Wed Nov 26 19:27:23 2014 | ||
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| tromp | the footnote explains that micro nonces generate edges and another nonce generates the key | 19:28 |
| zooko | tromp: yes, I know. | 19:28 |
| tromp | calling the latter the macro nonce | 19:28 |
| tromp | it's a suggested language for ppl discussing the paper | 19:29 |
| zooko | I'm saying, it is unnecessarily confusing to introduce the word "macro nonce" when it is used only one time, and that time is mostly just to point out that you shouldn't confuse it with the micro nonce. | 19:29 |
| zooko | Okay. | 19:29 |
| zooko | Also, what I really wanted was an explanation of how the macro nonce would be chosen. | 19:29 |
| tromp | i want to save ppl the trouble from talking in terms of "that other nonce that generates the hash key" | 19:30 |
| zooko | I suppose that's outside the scope of cuckoo per se, but I imagine it is something like sha256(previous-block-hash | macro-nonce). | 19:30 |
| tromp | it;s sha256(header) where header has many fields including those but also merkle root and timestamp for instance | 19:31 |
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| tromp | the macro nonce is chosen just as it is with bitcoin's pow | 19:41 |
| tromp | in whatever way suits the miner | 19:42 |
| tromp | that's simply outside of the pow's scope | 19:42 |
| op_null | primes give me a warm feeling. | 19:42 |
| op_null | go with primes. | 19:42 |
| tromp | i mention primes in my paper, just to give you thatr warm feeling | 19:43 |
| tromp | but found no use for them in my pow:( | 19:43 |
| op_null | oh you | 19:43 |
| tromp | op_null maybe you can do some gapcoin mining | 19:44 |
| tromp | to gain more warmth | 19:44 |
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| op_null | I don't think I've mentioned it before, but I *really* like the way you handle cuckoo cycle. it's not presented as magic to save the world, you're not hounding other people to use it or like it. I'm not sure if it's right or desirable, but I certainly don't mind discussing it with you. | 19:46 |
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| tromp | btw, they came up with this brilliant logo: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=822498.msg9493423#msg9493423 | 19:46 |
| op_null | what on earth is gapcoin | 19:47 |
| tromp | thx, op_null. appreciate that | 19:47 |
| tromp | it's the latest prime flavored PoW | 19:47 |
| tromp | pretty neat actually | 19:47 |
| op_null | does it have the problem primecoin does where it blows up the block header and is insane to verify? | 19:48 |
| tromp | i'm not familiar with it | 19:49 |
| op_null | I got sha256 PoW verification working on a $4 CPU from china, duno how I'd go with prime sieves | 19:49 |
| tromp | gapcoin uses diffrent verification from primecoin | 19:50 |
| tromp | they use miller rabin tests | 19:51 |
| tromp | which give arbitrarily high confidence of primality | 19:51 |
| op_null | I assume you have to walk the distance between the primes and check all of them for primeness though? | 19:51 |
| tromp | primecoin uses a pseudoprimality test which cld be wrong | 19:51 |
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| tromp | i don't know; the proof cld enumerate some numbers in between whose compositeness is not easily established | 19:52 |
| tromp | wld have to read up more on it | 19:53 |
| tromp | gapcoin.org says "Verifying a prime gap is easy, you only have to check every number between the start and the end to be composite" | 19:53 |
| tromp | so i guess they stick with the obvious | 19:54 |
| tromp | maybe avoid miller rabin for numbers with a small divisor | 19:54 |
| tromp | as expected, the section "But how are prime gaps useful?" is less than convincing:) | 19:55 |
| op_null | at least what they are saying can be parsed as english. lots of altcoins dont manage that. | 19:56 |
| op_null | my favourite one's feature was that the difficulty was locked to 1, and you had to "wait" between mining blocks for 24 hours. easiest coin to mine! | 19:57 |
| tromp | reminds me of those bitcointalk posts that ask: cld we design a coin that limits the hashpower? | 19:58 |
| op_null | or this one that explains how their BIP62 stuff works https://i.imgur.com/aXgRFQ8.png | 19:59 |
| op_null | well, someone did make an altcoin with a fixed difficulty at one point and no "waiting", I think it just exploded into a world of chain forks | 20:00 |
| tromp | was it called DDOScoin :-> | 20:00 |
| tromp | ? | 20:00 |
| op_null | no, but that has existed too. the idea was that if you solved a block the rest of the network launched a denial of service attack against you. | 20:01 |
| gmaxwell | op_null: liquidcoin | 20:01 |
| gmaxwell | yea, I think that one was mostly intended to shed hashrate from litecoin. | 20:02 |
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| op_null | a close contender is one that attempts to have "proof of activity", where nodes "stake" by being online. how do you prove that a node is online? you connect to them of course. so the whole network has every single node connecting to every other one, in order to watch their uptime and use it for consensus ;_; | 20:02 |
| tromp | almost makes you want to draw up a top-100 list of most ill-conceived ideas in crypto-currencies | 20:04 |
| op_null | gmaxwell: oh that's old. fixed difficulty 0.05, forked from tenebrix, CPU only mining with scrypt | 20:04 |
| op_null | tromp: if you want to be DDoS fodder, go right ahead. | 20:06 |
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| op_null | gmaxwell: oh, did you hear darkcoin's coinjoin clone was vulnerable? | 20:07 |
| gmaxwell | tromp: it was a fantstic idea, took like half of the ltc hashrate away for a month, and exploded into a zillion forks that could never converge onto a single blockchain. :P | 20:07 |
| gmaxwell | op_null: well that was a given, but by which particular mode did it fail this time? | 20:08 |
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| op_null | gmaxwell: something to do with the way they were doing fees meant the path through the coinjoin was obvious. I don't know how that works since the outputs are meant to be the same size, but I assume it's due to something with the masternodes taking out fees each time. | 20:09 |
| gmaxwell | oh, well in that case I'm just more surprised that someone noticed. | 20:09 |
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| op_null | "We ask that everyone stop using Darksend for the time being, until we’re able to push out a fix to an issue Aswan found. This issue comes from the way fees are paid in Darksend with the combination of the way the client tries to denominate the same amount each round. The result is the possibility to trace a transaction through Darksend. | 20:10 |
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| op_null | gmaxwell: you could also completely break their network by announcing a masternode in two places at once. | 20:11 |
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| zooko | Ugh, I tire of reading the complaining and whining about other people's projects. | 20:20 |
| op_null | sorry. | 20:20 |
| zooko | Could someone set a flag when the topic in here veers onto constructive work? | 20:21 |
| zooko | It's just social grooming. | 20:21 |
| op_null | I take issue with people being sold disfunctional cryptosystems is all. | 20:21 |
| zooko | We can score a few points by bonding with our buddies about how dumb and/or malicious is someone who's not present. | 20:21 |
| zooko | Approximately the same functionality as the Facebook "like" button. | 20:22 |
| * zooko tries hard to reign in rant mode | 20:22 | |
| gmaxwell | zooko: I suppose you'd prefer to continue to divert actual productive conversation into closed membership private channels as you have in the past? | 20:22 |
| zooko | op_null: I'm sure you personally don't deserve my ire. It's more of the "social tone" in general. | 20:22 |
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| op_null | there's a difference between a social media site and cryptography that people's safety can depend on. I can't do anything to stop people doing shitty things with cryptography and selling it, ridiculing it to an audience that can understand it is about all I can do. | 20:23 |
| kanzure | gmaxwell: there's a difference between advocating for less smearing of other terrible projects, versus advocating for a closed membership channel | 20:23 |
| gmaxwell | zooko: there is a productive side of the conversation, understanding the failure modes is important and interesting (which was my question) though in this case it appears to have not added much to the collective understanding. (e.g. bc.i already made a very similar mistake with fee tracability) | 20:23 |
| kanzure | in general it would probably be a good idea to not foster an environment of warantless smearing. although i can totally support thoughtful and clever smearing based on bringing up actual implementation details or concepts etc. :) | 20:24 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: I was "pot kettle blacking" there. I'm not pleased with the continual diversion of people into closed channels because some people are uncomfortable with the additional costs of working in public. | 20:24 |
| kanzure | yep you and i share the same opinions there about private channels | 20:25 |
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| gmaxwell | (in particular, because it then leaves the less interesting stuff in public) | 20:25 |
| op_null | kanzure: in this case, it's fairly obvious that darkcoin built a flawed system where every "masternode" must have an open socket for people to connect to. the realities of a distributed system means there's a financial incentive for people to attack other nodes. which is obviously undesirable. | 20:26 |
| kanzure | gmaxwell: right, it's quite similar to the "being ignorant in private" problem | 20:26 |
| kanzure | op_null: you should not interpret any of my prior messages today as singling out darkcoin at all | 20:26 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] well, it's easier not to criticize other projects if they didn't have crazy instamines they've used to cash in on the public. but i guess maybe a better question is: can tx onion routing to obfuscate the sender reliably work? | 20:26 |
| op_null | kanzure: I didn't. | 20:26 |
| op_null | tacotime: who does that? darkcoin doesn't do that. | 20:28 |
| kanzure | zooko was specifically saying that he thinks it is unproductive to high-five each other about smearing people who aren't around | 20:28 |
| kanzure | that's all. this is not a complicated concept. | 20:28 |
| kanzure | bad ideas are bad enough on their own, anyway :) | 20:28 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] op_null: isn't that the intention of darksend? to have a bunch of funds sent to a master node, mix up their dests, then send them to another node, and so on? | 20:29 |
| zooko | op_null: I too strongly disapprove of incompetence and/or fraud harming people. ☺ | 20:29 |
| zooko | </rantmode> | 20:29 |
| zooko | Um... here's something maybe sort of relevantish, while also being constructive? | 20:29 |
| zooko | Hold on ... | 20:29 |
| zooko | Trying to get a web server that I can host it on. | 20:29 |
| op_null | kanzure: I know. I was explaining why it's technically interesting and not just making fun of people for the hell of it. | 20:29 |
| zooko | Oh well, maybe later. | 20:29 |
| gmaxwell | As far as not around, they've been invited here. But they were only interested in paying me so they could attach my name to their project, not in actual technical discussions. In any case, I also prefer "omg guess what these idiots did" at least be directed to figuring out how to avoid the same mistakes elsewhere. :) | 20:30 |
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| gmaxwell | (they'd also used my name all over their stuff intially and I had to threaten to go around bad mouthing them to get it removed.) | 20:30 |
| op_null | tacotime: I don't know, that might be something new. it was pretty much just coinjoin with a bunch of semi untrusted peers as far as I've seen. their next hype seems to be that they "solved" instant transactions using the same masternodes. | 20:30 |
| op_null | tacotime: they have some interesting flaws going on with masternodes. you're meant to hold a large amount of money as "stake" to prevent sybil attacks. people got tired of that because it meant you had to keep your 1000 DRK output secure. so now it's a delegation system. so people rent out their "stake" key to third parties who run nodes and collect a portion of the profit. | 20:31 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] op_null: um, hm. that's a sort of a proof of stake, i guess, but it sounds dangerous to based privacy on rented accounts. | 20:33 |
| op_null | it's not really clear how all of this works with miners in the mix, as the masternodes now take quite a big portion of the block reward too. if you wanted your node to make the most money, your best bet is to DOS attack all of the other masternodes so you're the only viable choice. | 20:33 |
| gmaxwell | op_null: thats pretty interesting, is it purely sybil protection now? originally they were talking about it being a bond to prevent misbehavior. I hadn't followed it because being closed source made it pointless to try. | 20:33 |
| op_null | gmaxwell: I can't say for certain, but I don't think you can lose your output for misbehaviour. | 20:34 |
| gmaxwell | is the profit sharing in the delegation enforced by the protocol or is it trust me? | 20:35 |
| op_null | for a while it was up to the pool to set their percentage, but now I think it's enforced as a consensus rule. they had some trouble with the network fragmenting when they enabled that feature the first time and had to hard fork around it. | 20:36 |
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| op_null | seems to be 30% of the block reward at the moment, but is set to increase over time. | 20:38 |
| gmaxwell | thats interesting. what drove the removal of the trust there? did pools rip people off? | 20:38 |
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| op_null | I think it was that pools weren't paying MN enough, I'd have to find that part of their forum thread. | 20:40 |
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| gmaxwell | I would be very interested in know if they were hard forking to override a market decision like that. | 20:41 |
| op_null | "Basically if someone runs an old version of the wallet and finds a block he won't pay anything to a masternode. Enforcement means that such blocks will be rejected by the network." | 20:43 |
| gmaxwell | oh this is enforcing the tribute to the masternodes. not the profit sharing in the delegation | 20:44 |
| op_null | oh yes, sorry I totally misread you. | 20:46 |
| op_null | um, I'll find out where the remote masternode stuff came from. | 20:46 |
| op_null | still looking, but here's the masternode payment percentage table https://i.imgur.com/gglJY0q.png | 20:49 |
| gmaxwell | yea, I knew about enforcing their diversion of the subsidy... I believe you and I may have wtf chuckled about the non-enforced version previously "no, thanks really, I'd prefer to keep all the coins." | 20:49 |
| op_null | that is of course the rational response. | 20:50 |
| op_null | "supports the hot/cold setupfor masternode operators (allowing your money to not be risked atall)" | 20:52 |
| op_null | can't find much more information about it sadly. just loads and loads of guides. | 20:53 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] that's a lot of the miner subsidy going to their proof of stake system. | 20:53 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] i imagine that as you increase their share, you disincentivize mining while incentivizing hoarding, and eventually at some point things will become insecure. | 20:55 |
| op_null | hard to say where that point is though | 20:57 |
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| MRL-Relay | [othe] but thats all they want, increase holding so the price does not drop ;) the rest doesn´t matter. | 21:03 |
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| smooth | that seems like kind of a fallacy although i haven't completely thought it through, but if everyone is holding and receiving stake then you are just decreasing the price | 21:25 |
| smooth | but perhaps you are decreasing it more slowly giving the instaminers more time to get out | 21:26 |
| MRL-Relay | [othe] but they don´t "stake"; they steal from the miner rewards | 21:30 |
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| smooth | whatever you call it. if you give more coins to people who has coins all you do is make the price lower though slowly | 21:36 |
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| gmaxwell | This bitcoin core pull req would love some more mild cryptographic review: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5227 | 23:47 |
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