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| nnnm | I'm looking at blockchain.info block explorer now. There seem to be weird block distribution in the recent hour. Is that usual? | 04:21 |
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| gmaxwell | (1) bc.i data is very frequently totally wrong and busted, (2) what do you think is weird? ... blocks gaps are exponential, they ofen look bursty. | 04:23 |
| nnnm | I was sure that with Bitcoin's hashrate it is practically impossible to have 40-min gap | 04:24 |
| gmaxwell | ;;tblb 2400 | 04:24 |
| gribble | The expected time between blocks taking 40 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 8 hours, 53 minutes, and 40 seconds | 04:24 |
| gmaxwell | nnnm: try more like 2.6 times per day on average. | 04:25 |
| nnnm | ok great thank you | 04:25 |
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| kanzure | "There is a subdirectory named ".protagonist/tags", and a subdirectory ".protagonist/tags/t" for every existing tag, t. Any file which is tagged with t is given a unique identifier and a hard link in the directory t." | 05:44 |
| kanzure | i dunno about this... | 05:44 |
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| oakpacific | ;;tblb 3600 | 06:45 |
| gribble | The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour and 0 seconds to generate is 2 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes, and 58 seconds | 06:45 |
| oakpacific | ;;tblb 36000 | 06:45 |
| gribble | An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information. | 06:45 |
| oakpacific | ;;tblb 7200 | 06:45 |
| gribble | The expected time between blocks taking 2 hours and 0 seconds to generate is 3 years, 18 weeks, 1 day, 13 hours, 35 minutes, and 3 seconds | 06:45 |
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| HM | hmm | 08:23 |
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| kanzure | .tw https://twitter.com/zooko/status/538392148127657984 | 14:51 |
| yoleaux | @petertoddbtc Challenge: key generation alg with entirely analog, homebuilt components: marbles, blocks, paper, rubber bands, etc. (@zooko, in reply to tw:538391798763118592) | 14:51 |
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| gmaxwell | kanzure: if we want to be all secret decoder ring about it, here is what we do. | 16:04 |
| kanzure | i don't know which it we're talking about, but i'm listening | 16:05 |
| zooko | me neither and me too! | 16:05 |
| gmaxwell | the tweet. | 16:05 |
| kanzure | oh that's way less interesting than what i was hoping we were talking about | 16:05 |
| kanzure | i am going to proceed with my prior assumptions then | 16:05 |
| nsh | there was a paper that suggested you can do ECC in 400 bytes of RAM but it's in Springerjail | 16:06 |
| gmaxwell | You generate your secret and a second random value. By hand you sum your secret and the random value. Now take your secret+random and your random value to seperate computers and compute x*G for each. then do the single point addition by hand to get your pubkey. :P | 16:06 |
| nsh | (bytes of RAM being roughly commensurate to 'moving parts' in some mechanical system) | 16:06 |
| zooko | gmaxwell: huh! | 16:07 |
| gmaxwell | the first addition is plain integer addition mod order, which is trivial. The point addition requires something like 8 field operations, so it's going to take you a while by hand. :P | 16:07 |
| gmaxwell | but its completely reasonable and I assume you could do it in under an hour. | 16:07 |
| * nsh would like to see some abacus pros doing ECC | 16:07 | |
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| kanzure | nsh: you mean springerkink | 16:08 |
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| * nsh nods | 16:08 | |
| kanzure | why isn't the tor onion routing stuff a separate library? i don't see why it has to be tor-only code. | 16:08 |
| nsh | .title http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/8747/how-to-build-an-electro-mechanical-public-key-cipher-machine | 16:09 |
| yoleaux | historic - How to build an electro-mechanical public key cipher machine? - Cryptography Stack Exchange | 16:09 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: it's not usefully abstractable. | 16:09 |
| kanzure | this stuff over here: https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor.git/blob_plain/HEAD:/src/or/circuitbuild.c | 16:09 |
| sipa | 8 field operations? how fast does a human do a 512-bit by 256-bit division...? | 16:10 |
| sipa | oh; field; if it's secp256k1 there's an easier way to do a modulus | 16:10 |
| gmaxwell | yea. | 16:10 |
| gmaxwell | well you can use repeated subtraction to do the reduction instead of division in any case. | 16:11 |
| nsh | " I wonder if you could implement ECC in hardware? Have a flexible line defined by the equation to serve as a cam surface, then place a straightedge at points P and Q to find the intersecting point. It could be a great illustrative tool, but I doubt it could be made accurate enough to provide the security required. – John Deters Jun 17 '13 at 16:50 " | 16:11 |
| nsh | that's zooko-worthy crazebition :) | 16:11 |
| zooko | Haha | 16:11 |
| kanzure | cc kragenjaviersitaker | 16:11 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: lol thats goofy, ECC over Fp^n is only conceptually related to ec over reals... in particular discrete log for ec on reals is not hard. | 16:12 |
| nsh | right | 16:12 |
| nsh | but perhaps you can shift the quantization? | 16:12 |
| nsh | not sure that makes any sense | 16:13 |
| sipa | nsh: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/21907/what-does-the-curve-used-in-bitcoin-secp256k1-look-like | 16:13 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: also you can get a pubkey in jacobian, and just have a computer reduce it to affine, as thats easy to check. | 16:13 |
| zooko | So, FWIW, I was imagining a hash function instead of "public key". :-) | 16:19 |
| sipa | nsh: heh, i wonder how much ram my implementation of secp256k1 uses at most (excluding the precomputed tables) | 16:20 |
| gmaxwell | ah people have done sha256 by hand. (sha256^2 in fact) | 16:20 |
| nsh | hmm | 16:20 |
| nsh | is there a limit to processing/ram tradeoff particular to a given algorithm/calculation? | 16:21 |
| nsh | ie, generally you can use less state at the expense of longer processing but only to a point | 16:21 |
| nsh | how does that point depend on the intrinsics of the calculation? | 16:21 |
| sipa | oh, for verification some factors are converted to wNAF form, which takes 4*129 bytes | 16:22 |
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| gmaxwell | nsh: there really is no limit for the s*G task, though obviously you run out of fast ram at some point. For the a*G + b*P multiexp, where only G is a constant base that you use over and over again and P you only use once, there is a small optimal amount of table to use. | 16:25 |
| nsh | hmm | 16:25 |
| gmaxwell | (the multiexp is what signature verification is doing; P is the pubkey) | 16:25 |
| * nsh nods | 16:26 | |
| gmaxwell | For the multiply with a generator case, it basically always gets faster with a bigger table if you're assuming memory bandwidth is infinite. | 16:26 |
| sipa | latency you mean | 16:26 |
| sipa | ah, for signing; never mind | 16:27 |
| gmaxwell | on i4770r which has a 128mb L4 cache. I get the best performance for multiply with a constant point using a 70mbyte-ish table. | 16:27 |
| nsh | if we're aiming for something like an abacus that can be used by a trained human with good manual dexterity at 'reasonable' speed | 16:27 |
| nsh | there will be some optimum degree of mechanical/state complexity | 16:28 |
| gmaxwell | well for e.g. generate a pubkey, if you're allowed a book you want the most precomputation possible. | 16:28 |
| * nsh nods | 16:29 | |
| gmaxwell | e.g. a book with 65536 entries lets you do the whole multiply yourself with only 16 point additions. | 16:29 |
| * nsh wonders about an ECC precomp slide-rule type device | 16:29 | |
| nsh | books are suboptimal for hand-based look-up, really | 16:29 |
| gmaxwell | they can have tabs. | 16:29 |
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| * nsh nods | 16:30 | |
| zooko | sorry -- I'm playing Thunderstone in real life with my brother Nathan and my 10yo son. :-) | 16:35 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: is there a canonical writeup on UTXO commitments somewhere? I can only find scattered references... | 16:40 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, i have done the first 3 and the last 3 stages of sha256 by hand | 16:59 |
| phantomcircuit | 0/10 would not recommend | 16:59 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: no, sprawling discussions, maaku's work is probably the most sophicated. | 17:00 |
| gmaxwell | I think maaku is not around today or I'd ping him for links. | 17:00 |
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| zooko | phantomcircuit: haha | 18:37 |
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| amiller | rusty, i have a paper and an ocaml library that makes authenticated data structure protocols for any data structure https://amiller.github.io/lambda-auth/ | 18:52 |
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| amiller | rusty, i have a forum post, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101734.0 etotheipi has one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.0 maaku has one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=204283.0 petertodd has an implementation too https://github.com/petertodd/python-merbinnertree | 18:57 |
| amiller | i think all of those are the best references... not *too* scattered | 18:58 |
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| rusty | amiller: thanks! Reading now... | 19:23 |
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