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| adam3us | so if we see $10k, $100k or $1m btcusd over the coming years one thing people wonder about is what does that imply for the mining hashrace - equipment expenditure & electrical usage. | 09:30 |
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| adam3us | so a what-if to react to that. if the hashrate increases by > 2x per 2week interval, then something else happens: the reward schedule is lengthened, by immediately reducing the next block payout by eg 1%. the reward just gets delayed towards the 2140 end. | 09:32 |
| adam3us | alternatively it could be that if the hashrate drops by > 2x per 2 week interval 1% block payout is added back. | 09:33 |
| adam3us | (parameters could be more sensibly tuned) | 09:33 |
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| belcher | cant we just wait until the block reward gets lower ? | 09:35 |
| belcher | if the problem is that a huge amount of electricity has be used | 09:35 |
| adam3us | point is maybe if btc price goes to $10k jan 2015 (for some reason - eg a government buying reserves, the chinese govt endorsing btc,, or a btc etf coming online), there will be a massive push into mining equipment purchase spurred by the $10k price, the manufacturers will ram up production, take more capital and electricity consumption will probably go up by a factor of 10ish also. | 09:37 |
| adam3us | then you have the what-if its $100k jan 2016 and $1m jan 2017. there is a scale at which it perhaps get unsustainable or the people that will be able to get and use the power maybe increasingly governments. there will no doubt be some side-effects | 09:39 |
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| adam3us | who nows maybe the params are chosen to make that tolerable. someone would have to do electricity projections for $1m btcusd. | 09:40 |
| belcher | something like that will just have to wait, it seems to me, governments will have to wait a decade or so before making btc their offical currency | 09:40 |
| belcher | a downside to changing the block reward schedule might be a reduction of confidence in things like the 21m btc limit, since 'oh look the devs can change it easily' | 09:41 |
| adam3us | unclear. things in bitcoin have a habit of surprising to the upside. (happen faster & more than people expect) | 09:41 |
| kanzure | adam3us: in particular you are worried about protocol-level modifications that would need to be made for surprisingly-early-even-faster-growth? or are worried about physical resource utilization to support network growth rates that high? | 09:41 |
| adam3us | betcher you could the 21btc cap could be unchanged, just the schedule longer. | 09:42 |
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| kanzure | i don't know if anyone has put serious thought into the implications of "surprising"-growth (whatever counts as surprising these days, since evidently $1M BTC thoughts aren't surprising) regarding protocol-level changes | 09:42 |
| adam3us | kanzure: not worried about protocol. just about resource utilization its a question people ask - and one response can be well restraint by miners, or community consensus to slow down the schedule. | 09:43 |
| kanzure | and by community consensus what do you mean | 09:43 |
| kanzure | if not protocol? | 09:43 |
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| adam3us | kanzure: yes i just mean i dont see protocol scaling problems. but a hashrate growth reactive payout adjustment would be a protocol change, and would need near unanimous approval. its just a far-future what-if :) | 09:44 |
| belcher | it could be corrected by market principles, for the price to stay at $1m/btc that would mean demand for btc needs to grow by $25m every 10 minutes, and if it doesnt the price will fall until demand growth = (block reward + fee)*price | 09:44 |
| kanzure | yes i see lots of benefits to considering what might even be called silly what-ifs. contigencies are important... | 09:45 |
| kanzure | re: increasingly only government-operated mining, that might still work out especially if they are multiple separate governments. i would be more worried about a single government head start against other governments. | 09:45 |
| adam3us | belcher: well soon enough that'll be $12.5m/block and then $6.25m/block. but when governments get into bitcoin to augment or replace gold, that could fairly easily happen i would think. | 09:46 |
| kanzure | strangely enough this seems to have lots in common with "what happens if a certain government creates agi first" lines of argumentation, so maybe you should go spelunking for ideas from those people | 09:46 |
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| adam3us | an argument for never changing is its a security subsidy and a more expensive btc imples a linear need for more security. | 09:48 |
| kanzure | central banks are problematic as adversaries since they can spend themselves into oblivion | 09:48 |
| kanzure | even the employees of the central banks don't work like normal employees ("well once you devalue the currency you're paying me in, i wont operate your central bank anymore") because they are probably compensated, ah, differently | 09:49 |
| adam3us | well decentralisation in a government btc reserve world is probably a balance of govt sponsored mining power. | 09:49 |
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| kanzure | oh right, it will probably appear more like government subsidies of mining companies | 09:50 |
| adam3us | it can be that such entities would go -ve EV on mining for strategic control reasons. | 09:52 |
| kanzure | (related context: recently i have been working on some reorg-related threat modeling regarding central banks as adversaries for a client of mine) | 09:52 |
| adam3us | for that reason not changing is good also because it escalates the -EV until it breaks their banks resolve. | 09:52 |
| kanzure | so one of the things that bitcoiners sometimes get wrong is treating all governments as hostile from day one. they might become hostile, that's true. | 09:53 |
| kanzure | but providing a plan to them that works pretty well is also useful | 09:53 |
| kanzure | and eventually you *will* be called into their offices to discuss such things | 09:53 |
| kanzure | so having something prepared is important | 09:54 |
| adam3us | kanzure: that wouldnt even be hostile just mutually strategic and selfish. | 09:54 |
| kanzure | right, sorry. i didn't mean to imply precisely that behavior would be hostile. just the typical "stay away from BTC, governments are evil, they will just try to destroy everything". | 09:54 |
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| kanzure | bitcoin has a lot to offer the currently insolvent governments, so they should be correctly informed about their options and opportunities | 09:55 |
| adam3us | kanzure: governments are capable of articulating economic principles and aspirations that reflect peoples wishes and economic interests now and then. they are also quite bad often at sticking to their own rules in times of crisis. bitcoin is a commodity. gold wont jump out of the ground because a politician is under pressure, and thats a feature. same for bitcoin. | 09:56 |
| kanzure | sure | 09:57 |
| adam3us | kanzure: the commodity behaviour plus improved features over physical gold can be a feature to governments too. (they also buy gold) the fact that they cant individually unilaterally control it or gain an unfair advantage is actually to their advantage collectively. | 09:58 |
| adam3us | pity the swiss referendum on returning to 20% gold standard failed. | 09:58 |
| kanzure | yep. so for these reasons they may not be interested in unintentionally screwing up mining trends. | 09:58 |
| kanzure | or at least having good understanding of the current dynamics and when to jump into the game or something | 09:59 |
| adam3us | i was thinking maybe it'd be cheaper for them to go to 20% btc standard. if they moved carefully the announce of the intent would jump the price making it quite cheap. | 09:59 |
| kanzure | you lost me at cheap | 09:59 |
| adam3us | ie there is a first mover advantage for a government to buy btc reserves | 09:59 |
| kanzure | oh cheap now compared to then | 09:59 |
| kanzure | yeah i don't think they would be open to that line of argument | 09:59 |
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| kanzure | as true as it may be, it sounds an awful lot like "you should buy silver because it would make silver bugs happy" | 10:00 |
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| kanzure | it would be interesting to figure out the least disruptive onboarding process if governments were interested in dabbling | 10:03 |
| kanzure | including scenarios for mining or not mining | 10:03 |
| adam3us | well its just an observation. i mean if they wanted to play nice they could hold secret talks and buy btc on the quiet all of them before the price leapt on the news. but its unclear if they operate that way… there is some evidence of quiet gold hoarding, but also pre-announcements about intent of given govts to increase or decrease their reserves | 10:05 |
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| kanzure | adam3us: for a dose of humor... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=437926.0 | 10:07 |
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| sipa | so general inquiry: who here is going to (the bitcoin sessions at) fc'15? | 14:02 |
| sipa | wumpus, cfields-away, gavinandresen: ^ | 14:02 |
| tromp_ | i am | 14:04 |
| BlueMatt | jgarzik: | 14:04 |
| BlueMatt | amiller: | 14:04 |
| sipa | roconnor: | 14:04 |
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| sipa | tromp_: cool! | 14:04 |
| tromp_ | gotta present cuckoo cycle | 14:04 |
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| sipa | gmaxwell: | 14:04 |
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| sipa | petertodd: | 14:04 |
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| sipa | also, when did this channel grow from 5 people to 181? | 14:05 |
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| tromp_ | when you weren't looking | 14:05 |
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| BlueMatt | sipa: lots of people lurking to see whats being discussed, and lots of people figuring they'd come here to discuss $DUMB_IDEA instead of -dev | 14:06 |
| BlueMatt | and lots of smart people getting into bitcoin, of course | 14:06 |
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| amiller | i'll be at FC :) | 14:14 |
| amiller | also congrats tromp for getting in! | 14:14 |
| tromp_ | thanx, amiller. got 2 weak and 1 strong accept | 14:15 |
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| roconnor | sipa: what/when/where? | 14:21 |
| sipa | roconnor: http://fc15.ifca.ai/ | 14:21 |
| roconnor | won't be going | 14:22 |
| BlueMatt | tromp_: at the bitcoin workshop? | 14:22 |
| tromp_ | yes, BlueMatt | 14:22 |
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| lechuga_ | BlueMatt: re: contracthashtool, is it intentional that a random nonce is generated for each tweak vs. a single nonce for one full round of tweaking? | 14:35 |
| lechuga_ | (in the case where the nonce wasn't provided by the user) | 14:35 |
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| BlueMatt | lechuga_: hmm? it only uses one nonce no matter what, but it is incredibly deliberate that each key gets a different tweak (and very much required) | 14:37 |
| lechuga_ | o nm misread, it is 1 nonce | 14:38 |
| lechuga_ | i ported the tool to ruby and was considering building an mdf service | 14:39 |
| BlueMatt | I saw that :) | 14:39 |
| lechuga_ | curious for any feedback on: https://github.com/aalness/contracthashtool-ruby/issues/2 | 14:39 |
| BlueMatt | well, the port | 14:39 |
| lechuga_ | (no rush) | 14:39 |
| lechuga_ | you guys have obv thought about this a bit more than me | 14:40 |
| lechuga_ | im just anxious to start messing around | 14:40 |
| BlueMatt | 1. should be done locally | 14:40 |
| BlueMatt | 2. will probably be done locally as well, in the form of putting a tx on a chain | 14:40 |
| BlueMatt | 3. might be as well, but could also be an exposed api | 14:41 |
| lechuga_ | i assumed prior to 2. the user wouldve put the tx on the chain | 14:41 |
| lechuga_ | (didnt want to force the MDFs to scan) | 14:41 |
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| BlueMatt | really, functionaries will more likely just be transaction signers | 14:41 |
| BlueMatt | meh, they already have to be full nodes, so scanning the chain is cheap | 14:42 |
| gmaxwell | If the tweak is not different per key then these scripts are trivially distinguhable. Say one usage uses keys {A,B,C} and another uses {A',B',C'} if the tweak is a constant then A'-A+B = B'. Among other motivations... if the pubkey isn't part of the mac then it's not strong binding, e.g. I can generate a pubkey that appears to commit to two messages, and if the pubkey has to be in the hash then it ends up needing to be per key. | 14:42 |
| lechuga_ | gmaxwell: right i know the tweak needs to be unique per key, bad phrasing of initial question on my part | 14:42 |
| BlueMatt | gmaxwell: I thought that was obvious :p | 14:43 |
| gmaxwell | BlueMatt: Dunno, not that obvious. Timo's original contract hash writeup got the latter part wrong. | 14:43 |
| sipa | many things are obvious once you've heard about them :) | 14:43 |
| lechuga_ | :) | 14:44 |
| BlueMatt | sipa: sorry, yes, I meant it was obvious once you see it there | 14:44 |
| BlueMatt | ie seeing it in the code, its not hard to work back to why its needed, not neccessarily that its obviously needed | 14:44 |
| * nsh obviates with alacrity | 14:44 | |
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| gmaxwell | GAH. http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2ntpvh/bitcrypt_encryption_with_bitcoin_addresses/ | 15:23 |
| gmaxwell | (see also my respone there) | 15:24 |
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| gmaxwell | So. Uh. Heres a bit of fodder for things with potentially unexpected consequences. Following a comment in private conversation with op_null about unrelated stuff; I thought I should go look to see what DKIM puts under signature. DKIM is DomainKeys Identified Mail an IETF standard for email that authenticates a messages origin (e.g. from address) to prevent spam. | 17:15 |
| gmaxwell | So i turns out that many of the message headers (from/to/id/etc.) are almost always under the signature. The sender also has a timestamp under the signature. And the hash of some portion of the body; the usage I'm looking at puts the whole body under the signature. | 17:16 |
| gmaxwell | This means that if you send email using DKIM you're making your message cryptographically non-reputable. | 17:17 |
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| gmaxwell | Because DKIM just uses keys in DNS there isn't a strong PKI to verify the keys; so there are limits on how strong the evidence is. | 17:18 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: isn't that almost an inevitable consquence of any authenticated email scheme though? | 17:18 |
| BlueMatt | depends on what your goals are | 17:19 |
| BlueMatt | you might just sign from/to/date, that way you can only prove an email was sent, not its contents | 17:19 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: It's not.. I mean if your goal is just antispam, having a nonce, timestamp, and from domain under the signature is adequate. Which is what I'd stupidly asumed DKIM did. | 17:19 |
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| BlueMatt | and allow an intermediary server to modify it | 17:19 |
| gmaxwell | E.g. you say ig are good for 3 days, you remember the nonces, you don't allow nonce replay for three days.. etc. | 17:20 |
| gmaxwell | It's been much to our (-wizard-ish folks) annoyance that with SSL there is actually no way to get the server to sign data. So I don't mean to say that it's entirely a bad thing DKIM works this way; but it means that sending emails might have somewhat more consequences than people assume. | 17:21 |
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| BlueMatt | to be fair, in court, "look, heres a screenshot of gmail!" is pretty much as good as dkim | 17:22 |
| lechuga_ | lol | 17:22 |
| gmaxwell | Though only somewhat; because we take trivially forged documents as strong evidence way to easily... so the addition of a signature that actually makes it into strong evidence is unlikely to caue harm; even if it came as a shock. | 17:22 |
| gmaxwell | BlueMatt: yes ^ exactly. | 17:22 |
| gmaxwell | Not just in court, but also in public opinion. Though this may change over time; most legal scholars I've talked to agree that our standards for evidence are insane... but we have them because historically better evidence was impossible; and a court that has to constantly go "sorry, can't decide" is not socially useful. | 17:24 |
| BlueMatt | yea, was just gonna say that | 17:24 |
| gmaxwell | So the existance of the possiblity of stronger evidence will change the standards, given enough time... and then creating stronger evidence than we expected could be harmful to people. | 17:25 |
| BlueMatt | well, ultimately it will create the same level of evidence people consider unsigned email to be today...the only difference will be that people who run their own mailservers and fix this bug now get a free pass | 17:25 |
| BlueMatt | (or the court just says "nope, sorry, you cant get a free pass like that") | 17:26 |
| gmaxwell | in any case, "in before some POS system starts using gmail as a timestamper to prevent nothing at stake". :P | 17:26 |
| BlueMatt | naa, just use gmail dkim signatures/proof of number of gmail accounts as a measure for stake :) | 17:27 |
| gmaxwell | yea, you could do that too. | 17:27 |
| BlueMatt | to be fair, it would actually work pretty well until google decided to walk all over it | 17:27 |
| gmaxwell | Also, proof of spam. E.g. send a letter to president@whitehouse.gov that includes at least 5 offensive words to get your payment. | 17:27 |
| BlueMatt | security of google/of mass-gmail-registration is generally pretty good | 17:27 |
| BlueMatt | heh | 17:28 |
| gmaxwell | Actually, given strong enough script we can create trutless (well cept for google) contract to nag congress people with form letters. | 17:28 |
| BlueMatt | heh | 17:28 |
| gmaxwell | probably all kinds of crazy vote buying and other fun things we can do. | 17:28 |
| BlueMatt | proof of offer to bribe? | 17:29 |
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| gmaxwell | Oh, trustless escrows. E.g. you pay me bitcoin conditional on me presenting an amazon.com dkim email invoice that has your address in the shipto. | 17:29 |
| BlueMatt | heh, indeed | 17:29 |
| gmaxwell | BlueMatt: well lots of systems send side effects in email, ... invoices, thanks for participating in our survey. | 17:29 |
| BlueMatt | yea, absolutely | 17:30 |
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| gmaxwell | the pki part isn't a problem if you can just specify the key in advance in the contract (as I did in these examples) | 17:30 |
| BlueMatt | yupyup | 17:30 |
| nsh | apropos: | 17:31 |
| nsh | -- | 17:31 |
| nsh | <TheCthulhu> pfm: Perhaps the most worrying thing I've seen this week is the standard of data/evidence integrity that is used across the EU. In nearly every EU country when a forensics specialist presents evidence to the court, he or she must show proof that the evidence has not been tampered with in the form of some type of checksum. So that checksum must match when the device was seized to that which is presented to the court. The generally accepted st | 17:31 |
| nsh | andard is CRC. Given you can get a CRC collision in less than 5 minutes, you can already see some arising problems and I am amazed it has never been challenged | 17:31 |
| nsh | <pfm> seems like more technical experts are desperately needed in the legal system | 17:31 |
| nsh | -- OFTC#nottor [edited for vertical brevity] | 17:31 |
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| gmaxwell | oh seperately. I think I have a scheme for blockchain document timestamping that removes collision attacks, if anyone cares. E.g. you could do sqrt(|H()|) work and grind out two documents with the same hash, then commit the value, and then later pick which one(s) you reveal. An interactive protocol where you commit to the document, then the verifier gives you a challenge and you commit to challenge||document and both commitments ... | 17:36 |
| gmaxwell | ... must pass, removes that attack (I think!) and (if so), we can make that non-interactive by using the blockchain to provide the challenge. | 17:36 |
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| sl01 | gmaxwell: how much actual work would it take to create a document hash collision w sha256 ? | 17:47 |
| sl01 | 2**128 ? | 17:48 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: seems a little paranoid, but OK, you're suggesting you commit the document, then blockhash-where-document-committed || document in some later block? | 18:11 |
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| nsh | gmaxwell, neat | 18:28 |
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| gmaxwell | sl01: 2^128 assuming the function was perfect. But, for example: it's trivial to compute chosen prefix collisions for MD5, and yet producing a second preimage is infeasable; due to cryptographic weakneses. | 18:54 |
| gmaxwell | The MD structure used by sha256 is inherently weak against some attacks to produce collisions, though in the case of sha256 it appears to not (currently) be exploitable. | 18:55 |
| phantomcircuit | and likely wouldn't be an issue in bitcoin anyways | 18:57 |
| gmaxwell | so given that it already happened with MD5 and to a lesser extent for sha1 (no one has demonstrated it against sha1, but it should only have complexity ~2^62 or so) ... It's quite plausable that sha256 could someday be found to be pratically collision weak while still being second preimage strong. If it's worth fixing that, I dunno. For schnorr signatures an analogus protection can be done for basically free. In this case it's not ... | 18:57 |
| gmaxwell | ... free. | 18:57 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: yea, bitcoin under normal use mostly doesn't care about collisions (or rather, they result in DOS attacks, but generally not worse). But a timestamping scheme might be made very vulnerable by them. | 18:58 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, how would you use collisions for dos? | 18:59 |
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| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: e.g. make two txn with the same hash. one valid, one invalid. get the valid one mined, relay to people copies of the block with the invalid one. Oops they're all now rejecting that block. | 19:04 |
| phantomcircuit | ah right | 19:04 |
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| gmaxwell | or worse, make two valid transactions but with different scriptpubkeys in the txouts. Get one mined, relay variations of the block to random nodes. Later spend one and the network forks. | 19:05 |
| gmaxwell | these things are fixable with pure p2p protcol changes, I think. | 19:05 |
| gmaxwell | E.g. you identify blocks with an alternative second hash... and so you'd learn both of them. And you have some rule that the lower second hash value is the block you use when there are two valid blocks with the same id. | 19:06 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: s/identify blocks/identify txs/? | 19:07 |
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| gmaxwell | rusty: for the attacks I'm describing above its sufficient to solve it at a block level. (since a block includes the transactions) | 19:13 |
| midnightmagic | how would one determine if a p2sh was duplicated until an actual spend happens | 19:13 |
| gmaxwell | midnightmagic: you can't. Though I believe you can use the same protocol I described to harden p2sh against 2^80 collisions... most of the time you don't care what someone elses scriptPubKey is, .... but for protocols where you do (e.g. "I'll pay to this because I trust I am a signer) you have at best 2^80 security today. | 19:14 |
| gmaxwell | To harden you could have someone commit the script they're going to use, exactly. Then you give them a nonce, and the script they really use is NONCE OP_DROP <what they told you> and then there is no 2^80 attack. (or even without the overhead, e.g. if you're providing one of the pubkeys, you provide it in that order. | 19:16 |
| gmaxwell | mostly I don't worry about 2^80 attacks, esp ones against interactive protocols. | 19:16 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: ok, so I've hacked up a simulator for a fountain server, using an exponential series of blocks to xor. Seems promising; want to make sure results are real though. | 19:41 |
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