| --- Day changed Fri Dec 05 2014 | ||
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:00 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:01 | |
| -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:01 | |
| -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:02 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:03 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:03 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 00:08 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 00:08 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:10 | |
| * nsh is tempted to have another go at an auto-citing tweet | 00:11 | |
| nsh | *self-citing, clearer | 00:11 |
|---|---|---|
| bramc | nsh, What's the algorithm twitter uses for picking tweet urls? | 00:13 |
| nsh | no idea, seems to be roughly increasing | 00:14 |
| nsh | presumably it's decentralized somehow, but not clear to me intuitively a simple way of doing that | 00:15 |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:17 | |
| op_null | bramc: incrementing. | 00:19 |
| nsh | can't be single counter. that would not scale | 00:20 |
| nsh | they could delegate blocks of integers to clusters and then maybe sweep up the unused ones later, or just leave them as so | 00:21 |
| nsh | between about 3s-apart tweets was 16152264705 difference | 00:21 |
| nsh | 16 billion | 00:22 |
| op_null | nsh: for a while at least they were incremental. maybe they are sharded so different nodes don't overlap? | 00:36 |
| op_null | nsh: when I first used twitter it was in the billions so that's where that comment came from. | 00:36 |
| * nsh nods | 00:36 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 00:40 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:40 | |
| bramc | the algorithm has likely changed over time | 00:42 |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:43 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@50-0-135-98.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 00:43 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:46 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-225-66.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 00:51 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-225-66.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:52 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 01:00 | |
| -!- zibbo [~zibbo@84.20.131.204] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:01 | |
| -!- Graftec [~Graftec@gateway/tor-sasl/graftec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:02 | |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:05 | |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:05 | |
| * andy-logbot is logging | 01:05 | |
| -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:06 | |
| -!- Graftec [~Graftec@gateway/tor-sasl/graftec] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:06 | |
| -!- koshii [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:17 | |
| -!- samson_ [~samson_@180.183.165.35] has quit [] | 01:19 | |
| -!- samson_ [~samson_@180.183.165.35] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:27 | |
| -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] | 01:35 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] | 01:36 | |
| -!- davejh69__ [~davejh69@host86-156-141-169.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 01:36 | |
| -!- davejh69___ [~davejh69@host86-156-141-169.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:36 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:39 | |
| -!- zibbo [~zibbo@84.20.131.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 01:39 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:39 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] | 01:39 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:39 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:40 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@67.pool85-53-142.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:45 | |
| wumpus | twitter used to use an (open sourced) approximately increasing 64-bit id generation system called snowflake (https://www.github.com/twitter/snowflake), but it appears that it has been retired | 01:49 |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:52 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:52 | |
| nsh | ah, i thought i recalled the algorithm being known at some point | 01:52 |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 01:54 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 01:57 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:05 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:06 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:07 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:11 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 02:28 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:29 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1124f4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:29 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:31 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:32 | |
| -!- ebfull [~ebfull@c-76-120-40-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:33 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 02:34 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1124f4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 02:34 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:5ca0:d10e:f0ae:aa3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:34 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:5ca0:d10e:f0ae:aa3] has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] | 02:38 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1125f4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:40 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 02:41 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1125f4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 02:43 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:53 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 02:57 | |
| -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc | 02:58 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 03:04 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@83.162.194.88] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:08 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:5ca0:d10e:f0ae:aa3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:10 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:12 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:25 | |
| -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc | 03:27 | |
| -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.59.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:39 | |
| -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.59.195] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 03:39 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:54 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 03:58 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:03 | |
| -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 04:53 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:54 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 04:59 | |
| -!- luny` is now known as luny | 05:18 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:21 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 05:21 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:21 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:23 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:24 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 05:28 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:33 | |
| -!- warptangent [~warptange@unaffiliated/warptangent] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 05:34 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.29.97.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:36 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.29.97.171] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:38 | |
| -!- warptangent [~warptange@unaffiliated/warptangent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:38 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.29.97.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:38 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:38 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.29.97.171] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:39 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.29.97.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:39 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 05:42 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:44 | |
| -!- coiner [~linker@113.161.87.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 05:49 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:5ca0:d10e:f0ae:aa3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 05:50 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 05:50 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 06:14 | |
| -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:15 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:17 | |
| -!- kefkius [~kefkius@unaffiliated/kefkius] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:17 | |
| -!- davejh69___ [~davejh69@host86-156-141-169.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 06:18 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@67.pool85-53-142.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 06:20 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [] | 06:20 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:24 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 06:29 | |
| -!- gues [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-wiuzxoesipzcwjqd] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 06:34 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:35 | |
| -!- gues_ [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bovqueffdaxhtpyb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:36 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@83.162.194.88] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 06:39 | |
| -!- Guest32566 [~askmike@83.162.194.88] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:42 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:49 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:06 | |
| -!- stonecoldpat [~Paddy@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 07:06 | |
| -!- stonecoldpat [~Paddy@janus-nat-128-240-225-121.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:09 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 07:10 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:13 | |
| kanzure | nsh: they could allocate increments of their counter to different nodes in their cluster. | 07:17 |
| kanzure | nsh: because it would be weird if it is impossible to slice up portions of a number faster than your users post bad content. | 07:17 |
| -!- Baz__ [~Baz@modemcable147.31-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:22 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Read error: No route to host] | 07:22 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:25 | |
| op_null | kanzure: they need some sort of ordering system without central authority.. | 07:25 |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:26 | |
| op_null | maybe a DHT? | 07:26 |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-76-120-75-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:26 | |
| kanzure | what's the ordering for? | 07:28 |
| kanzure | they only need local ordering per user i think | 07:28 |
| op_null | I think having a roughly increasing integer means they can order without needing to look up metadata.. but I don't know really. | 07:29 |
| kanzure | i don't think they ever really need to do an actual ordering of all messages | 07:29 |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 07:30 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:30 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:30 | |
| pigeons | you can't suggest DHT in this chennel! lol ;P | 07:31 |
| kanzure | why not? | 07:31 |
| op_null | pigeons: (that's the joke) | 07:31 |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 07:32 | |
| pigeons | kanzure: its a joke because people used to suggest they could improve any issue you could think of with bitcoin by using a DHT before they had actually thought it through | 07:32 |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:32 | |
| pigeons | it was very very common occurance to the point of cliche | 07:33 |
| kanzure | apparently i was not around for that | 07:33 |
| -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc | 07:34 | |
| sipa | we need a quotebot | 07:35 |
| kanzure | sipa, for a while i had a gradstudentbot in another channel | 07:35 |
| pigeons | i noticed gnu name system uses both sycrypt for PoW and a DHT for db storage | 07:35 |
| kanzure | most of his quotes were taken directly from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovEghdXC4tE | 07:36 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:36 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 07:36 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:36 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 07:36 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:38 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 07:38 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.29.97.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 07:41 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-76-120-75-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 07:43 | |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@129.237.222.1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:46 | |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: now adays instead of the DHT gibberish, instead people are flooding other communities and telling people to use blockchains where they may not make any sense. | 07:48 |
| stonecoldpat | i cant remember from the top of my head, but if someone sends you enough to cover a transaction fee, can you create a transaction with a single OP_RETURN output? (so the transaction fee is spent) | 07:49 |
| Luke-Jr | stonecoldpat: yes, but don't. | 07:49 |
| stonecoldpat | i know its considered spamming (not going to do it), but its more out of interest atm | 07:50 |
| op_null | gmaxwell: it's telephony with a block chain! | 07:50 |
| amiller | what happens when you put an op_true out there? does someone take it? | 07:51 |
| Luke-Jr | amiller: I do! | 07:51 |
| op_null | no. the script can just never be made true. | 07:51 |
| op_null | so we can drop it from the UXTO if we choose. | 07:51 |
| * Luke-Jr runs with a patch that tries to spend any output it sees with up to 100 OP_TRUEs | 07:51 | |
| amiller | Luke-Jr, ok that was my next question :p | 07:52 |
| stonecoldpat | Luke-Jr: although, doing the transaction fee thing, would be better than those proof of burn ideas (where you send bitcoins to an unspendable address) if you wanted to finish a chain | 07:53 |
| Luke-Jr | stonecoldpat: "finish a chain"? | 07:53 |
| stonecoldpat | well transactions are all chained, they will eventually come to an end at some point | 07:54 |
| Luke-Jr | … | 07:54 |
| stonecoldpat | when you do a proof of burn, you finish the chain of transactions as its no longer spendable | 07:54 |
| op_null | not really. when you spend an output it is destroyed. no chain of anything. | 07:54 |
| Luke-Jr | stonecoldpat: I see what you're saying, but this is not a useful concept. | 07:54 |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@129.237.222.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 07:54 | |
| stonecoldpat | op_null: what I mean is that there is a trace left on the blockchain, so you can hop transaction to transaction | 07:55 |
| stonecoldpat | luke-jr: i agree its not useful, just interesting atm from my perspective | 07:55 |
| stonecoldpat | or at least shouldnt be used to any large extent as it just bloats the blockchain | 07:56 |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 07:56 | |
| Luke-Jr | the most use I see of it would be if someone sold custom made chain-link blankets(?) that were designed with the actual transaction linkage in the real blockchain <.< | 07:56 |
| Luke-Jr | as a kind of … pointless toy | 07:56 |
| op_null | chain link stuff sucks. it pulls all of the hairs out of your skin if you touch it. | 07:57 |
| Luke-Jr | O.o | 07:57 |
| stonecoldpat | well, what im thinking is, if you want someone to certify a message for you, lets say some authority, you send them the transaction fee, plus the message to certify, and then they certify it | 07:57 |
| Luke-Jr | hm. I bet if someone was producing those, we'd suddenly have a surge of spammers trying to embed art in the product | 07:57 |
| op_null | Luke-Jr: the chains pinch hairs between them, so if you put on a chain link shirt without anything under it you're in for a really, really painful day. | 07:58 |
| Luke-Jr | stonecoldpat: or you just send them the message and they PGP sign it | 07:58 |
| amiller | Luke-Jr, that would be an amazing gift, the bitcoin transaction graph knitted out of silk fibers | 07:58 |
| Luke-Jr | stonecoldpat: no need for a blockchain | 07:58 |
| -!- torsthaldo [torsthaldo@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-fzgblccvrzqalvyf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:05 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:06 | |
| -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 08:08 | |
| -!- torsthaldo [torsthaldo@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-fzgblccvrzqalvyf] has quit [Client Quit] | 08:09 | |
| -!- soundx_ [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:12 | |
| -!- torsthaldo [~torsthald@unaffiliated/torsthaldo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:14 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 08:14 | |
| -!- soundx_ [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 08:17 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:20 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:26 | |
| -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@g225185232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:28 | |
| -!- wallet42 is now known as Guest25033 | 08:28 | |
| -!- Guest25033 [~wallet42@g225119162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Killed (cameron.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] | 08:28 | |
| -!- wallet421 is now known as wallet42 | 08:28 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-46.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:29 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 08:30 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 08:30 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:31 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-46.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 08:34 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-46.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:35 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 08:36 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:9:4680:dd0:41b3:2720:518:cca2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 08:44 | |
| -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc | 08:45 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.181] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:54 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:00 | |
| -!- Guest32566 [~askmike@83.162.194.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:01 | |
| -!- koshii [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 09:08 | |
| -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc | 09:10 | |
| -!- coiner [~linker@1.54.181.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:11 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162.245.22.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:17 | |
| -!- HM2 [~HM@178.62.229.149] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:25 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:31 | |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@197.115.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:35 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 09:36 | |
| -!- torsthaldo [~torsthald@unaffiliated/torsthaldo] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 09:37 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 09:43 | |
| kanzure | "The uneasy relationship between mathematics and cryptography" http://www.ams.org/notices/200708/tx070800972p.pdf | 09:46 |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] | 09:52 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-46.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 09:54 | |
| HM2 | Neal Koblitz? | 09:55 |
| HM2 | as in the guy the Koblitz curves are named after? | 09:55 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:56 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:57 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 09:57 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:57 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] | 09:57 | |
| -!- devrando1 [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:01 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:03 | |
| -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 10:03 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:06 | |
| -!- koshii [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:15 | |
| gmaxwell | HM2: Koblitz invented ECC, not just Koblitz curves. | 10:18 |
| andytoshi | an interesting article kanzure, the talk of cryptographers submitting tons of barely-reviewed mostly-worthless papers is familiar | 10:22 |
| andytoshi | and very upsetting, coming from mathematics | 10:22 |
| HM2 | I thought that was Al Gore | 10:22 |
| HM2 | ;) | 10:23 |
| -!- paperbot [~paperbot@unaffiliated/kanzure/bot/paperbot] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:27 | |
| pigeons | is he working for ethereum yet? :P | 10:29 |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 10:31 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:37 | |
| HM2 | who, Al Gore? | 10:43 |
| phantomcircuit | ha | 10:44 |
| -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 10:44 | |
| -!- michagogo [uid14316@wikia/Michagogo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 10:46 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 10:53 | |
| -!- gues_ [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bovqueffdaxhtpyb] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 10:54 | |
| -!- Hunger- [hunger@proactivesec.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 10:54 | |
| -!- koshii [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 10:55 | |
| -!- gues__ [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ebvhonhoonbojdpu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:55 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:01 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 11:02 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:02 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:02 | |
| -!- Hunger- [hunger@proactivesec.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:02 | |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: presumably you've seen the anotherlook site? all the papers there are great. | 11:02 |
| -!- torsthaldo [torsthaldo@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-jdqkhsilpshciojh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:05 | |
| -!- HM2 [~HM@178.62.229.149] has quit [Quit: Segmentation fault] | 11:07 | |
| -!- HM2 [~HM@178.62.229.149] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:08 | |
| -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:10 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1125f4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:12 | |
| -!- torsthaldo [torsthaldo@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-jdqkhsilpshciojh] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 11:13 | |
| -!- gues__ [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ebvhonhoonbojdpu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 11:13 | |
| -!- Quanttek_ [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:4d54:74fd:e0e0:d8d9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:14 | |
| -!- devrando1 is now known as devrandom | 11:14 | |
| -!- gues_ [~gues@193.138.219.233] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:15 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1125f4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 11:17 | |
| -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 11:21 | |
| -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:21 | |
| kanzure | gmaxwell: nope i have not | 11:23 |
| ybit | http://anotherlook.ca/ | 11:23 |
| kanzure | oh, yes | 11:24 |
| kanzure | "blue one with annoying red flashing NEW text" | 11:24 |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:25 | |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 11:27 | |
| -!- Quanttek_ [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:4d54:74fd:e0e0:d8d9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 11:28 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:4d54:74fd:e0e0:d8d9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:28 | |
| -!- super3 [~Thunderbi@mobile-166-173-249-115.mycingular.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:30 | |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@197.115.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 11:30 | |
| -!- treehug8_ [~treehug88@34-253.as32345.tumblrhq.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:35 | |
| -!- koshii [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:42 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:45 | |
| -!- ybit [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Quit: leaving] | 11:48 | |
| -!- heath [~heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:48 | |
| -!- bramm [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:50 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:53 | |
| -!- bramm is now known as bramc | 11:56 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:58 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:58 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:59 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 12:04 | |
| -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@smartcontracts.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 12:05 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:05 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 12:05 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:05 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 12:09 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 12:11 | |
| -!- wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 12:17 | |
| -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@smartcontracts.us] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:20 | |
| -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@smartcontracts.us] has quit [Excess Flood] | 12:24 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.181] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:24 | |
| -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@smartcontracts.us] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:27 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:31 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 12:32 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:32 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:35 | |
| -!- wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:35 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 12:36 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@2601:1:9600:928:b2:fc36:f9c3:2cf4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:44 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 12:46 | |
| bramc | Well let's see, last two days of work my goals were to understand atomic transfer and nonoutsourcable puzzles, what will it be today? | 12:47 |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 12:47 | |
| bramc | The upshot of things I've worked through so far: cuckoo is a good idea, maybe should use a weakened siphash. Atomic transfers are a good idea, depend on timelock and hash preimage signing. Nonoutsourcable puzzles are a good idea, probably should intermingle with cuckoo a bit. | 12:53 |
| andytoshi | cuckoo i think we discussed at great length, nonoutsourcable puzzles seem not to leave any variance reduction mechanism (except trusted hosted mining), so those are quite controversial claims.. | 12:55 |
| andytoshi | but might be worth looking at the wiki Contracts page, has some interesting examples of script iirc | 12:56 |
| -!- zooko [~user@2601:1:9600:928:b2:fc36:f9c3:2cf4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 12:56 | |
| andytoshi | or look at alternate implementations of the protocol and find consensus bugs (but pls do not publish them immediately! they are security bugs) | 12:56 |
| -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@smartcontracts.us] has quit [Quit: quit] | 12:57 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@2601:1:9600:928:b2:fc36:f9c3:2cf4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:57 | |
| -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@smartcontracts.us] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:57 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 12:59 | |
| bramc | Looking through alternative implementations for security bugs is not the sort of thing which improves one's outlook on life. | 12:59 |
| andytoshi | this is true, but consensus bugs in particular improve your intuition about consensus systems | 13:00 |
| andytoshi | or rather, your intuition about how hard they are :P | 13:00 |
| andytoshi | if you want a math/crypto problem to work on, you can always try proving that ECDSA is or isn't a strong signature.. | 13:01 |
| tromp_ | cuckoo is also at odds with variance reduction | 13:01 |
| bramc | Yes nonoutsourcable puzzles are bad for variance reduction, that's kind of the point | 13:02 |
| andytoshi | (well, it's definitely not because given a valid sig (r, s) it is true that (r, -s) is also a valid sig ... but are there any other ways to mar an ECDSA sig without breaking it?) | 13:02 |
| bramc | I really want to explore ways that partials could be rewarded at the protocol level, basically turning all miners into one gigantic mining pool | 13:02 |
| bramc | andytoshi, that question is well outside my mathematical forte and current interests. I did mail djb asking his thoughts about cuckoo and whether ed25519 might be malleable though. | 13:03 |
| kanzure | "all miners" is a tough concept | 13:03 |
| kanzure | so what you can get is proofs-of-work relayed around.... which will need some sort of consensus about which proofs-of-work are valid.. and uh... | 13:04 |
| tromp_ | did djb reply yet? | 13:04 |
| bramc | tromp_, Not yet I mailed him like 20 minutes ago | 13:04 |
| andytoshi | i think ed25519 is nonmalleable (or can be easily made to be) since eddsa is basically schnorr, and schnorr is nonmalleable | 13:04 |
| -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:05 | |
| andytoshi | this is one of those things that we've been meaning to check on for ages and never gotten around to.. | 13:05 |
| andytoshi | "ages" about six months | 13:05 |
| bramc | kanzure, Consensus of what partials are valid isn't the problem, it's a question of how you incentivize later miners to include rewards for them | 13:06 |
| bramc | I tried to start a discussion about that yesterday but nobody seemed interested | 13:06 |
| kanzure | because many of the previously proposed implementations have been pretty bad (like "oh just have complete history of every partial ever, and then verify based on that") | 13:07 |
| bramc | nonoutsourcability doesn't imply there aren't partials | 13:07 |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 13:07 | |
| bramc | What's wrong with including the partials in the block chain? There has to be a transaction to reward them anyway. | 13:07 |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:08 | |
| bramc | andytoshi, I think it's a good idea for the identity of a utxo to include the transaction which created it but not the signature, just, you know, in case malleability comes up later. | 13:09 |
| bramc | kanzure, It can be compared in a very apples to apples way to what the mining pools do now, which basically create the same number of transactions | 13:10 |
| -!- op_null [~op_null@128.199.56.23] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] | 13:11 | |
| andytoshi | bramc: yeah, that's how i would've done it | 13:12 |
| kanzure | those mining pools have that information because of a centralized ledger | 13:12 |
| andytoshi | (if i were inventing bitcoin, and was somehow doing so from the perspective of a -wizard in 2015) | 13:12 |
| bramc | andytoshi, Yeah I probably would have gotten hit by the same gotcha had I done it in the first place | 13:13 |
| bramc | kanzure, Not sure what you mean, they're still basically handing out one reward per partial, and those rewards have to be in the block chain | 13:13 |
| kanzure | i don't know which definition of partial you are using here | 13:14 |
| tromp_ | bramc: including partials in the blockchain is starting to look like lowering block interval time by an order of magnitude | 13:14 |
| kanzure | many pools do not pay per share until some participant has accumulated a balance sufficient enough to warrant a bitcoin transaction withdrawal | 13:14 |
| bramc | tromp_, In some ways yes, but it doesn't create lots of orphans like lowing block interval times would | 13:14 |
| bramc | And doesn't collide with cuckoo's minimum running time either. | 13:15 |
| andytoshi | hard to say whether a real cryptography would've, who was thinking of script as a signature scheme and was aware of concepts like "strong signature" and "unique signature" and how they would've been helpful | 13:15 |
| andytoshi | real cryptographer* | 13:15 |
| bramc | I'm not a real cryptographer :-) | 13:15 |
| andytoshi | nor am i :) | 13:16 |
| bramc | kanzure, A partial is an accepted proof of work which isn't quite strong enough to mint a new block. Basically all the mining pools reward partials. | 13:16 |
| andytoshi | but one day maybe | 13:16 |
| kanzure | what do you mean by accepted | 13:16 |
| bramc | I've been trying very hard to disavow being a real cryptographer for a while | 13:16 |
| bramc | kanzure, accepted == given a reward for | 13:17 |
| kanzure | have you looked at p2pool? | 13:17 |
| kanzure | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/P2Pool | 13:18 |
| bramc | Oh, hmm, p2pool is more interesting than I thought, I assumed it was just another mining pool | 13:18 |
| bramc | just another centralized mining pool | 13:19 |
| kanzure | "P2Pool creates a new block chain in which the difficulty is adjusted so a new block is found every 30 seconds. The blocks that get into the P2Pool block chain (called the "share chain") are the same blocks that would get into the Bitcoin block chain, only they have a lower difficulty target. Whenever a peer announces a new share found (new block in the P2Pool block chain), it is received by the other peers, and the other peers verify ... | 13:19 |
| kanzure | ... that this block contains payouts for all the previous miners who found a share (and announced it) that made it into the P2Pool share chain. This continues until some peer finds a block that has a difficulty that meets the Bitcoin network's difficulty target. This peer announces this block to the Bitcoin network and miners who have submitted shares for this block are paid in the generation transaction, proportionally to how many ... | 13:19 |
| kanzure | ... shares they have found in the last while." | 13:19 |
| bramc | Yes I found the page before you posted the link | 13:20 |
| bramc | Maybe I'll make my task for today to be to absorb this | 13:20 |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:20 | |
| tromp_ | when i said "cuckoo is also at odds with variance reduction" i meant it doesn't leave room to reduce the share interval time in p2pool | 13:21 |
| bramc | tromp_, Maybe slightly older partials could be rewarded later | 13:21 |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@197.115.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:22 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:26 | |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@197.115.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 13:31 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:31 | |
| -!- stonecoldpat [~Paddy@janus-nat-128-240-225-121.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 13:33 | |
| bramc | tromp_, What do you think of my suggestion of intermingling the nonoutsourcable puzzle and cuckoo? | 13:34 |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 13:36 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:36 | |
| tromp_ | what is the nonoutsourcable puzzle you have in mind, bramc? | 13:38 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 13:41 | |
| bramc | tromp_, The one proposed in http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable.pdf | 13:41 |
| bramc | Basically my proposal is that the cuckoo edges be directly defined by the secret nonces, each nonce defining an equal fraction of the edges | 13:42 |
| bramc | It shouldn't make any difference for the difficulty of cuckoo, and increases the communications needed by an attacker dramatically | 13:43 |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:43 | |
| tromp_ | let me read andrew's paper and ponder that a bit:) | 13:44 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:44 | |
| -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 13:46 | |
| tromp_ | how much slower will edge endpoint generation be compared to a single siphash? | 13:46 |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 13:46 | |
| bramc | tromp_, Should be identical, assuming that you're already doing the work of making the nonoutsourcable puzzle | 13:49 |
| bramc | Maybe the few hundred more siphash setups might matter | 13:50 |
| bramc | But since each of them is used for a lot of edges that shouldn't be a big deal | 13:50 |
| tromp_ | are you using the weakly or strongly nonoutsourcable puzzles? | 13:51 |
| kanzure | what's the difference from http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable_full.pdf and http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable.pdf | 13:52 |
| bramc | tromp_, Not sure the difference, isn't there only one construction given? | 13:52 |
| tromp_ | i'd have to read it:) just skimmed the sectoin headers, and saw these two types | 13:53 |
| bramc | The idea is that the nonoutsourcable puzzle outputs a nonce which is then run through cuckoo, I'd like to make it so that there's more than just a nonce so that if an attacker is trying to farm out work on just the cuckoo step they have to use more bandwidth than just sending the nonces | 13:54 |
| -!- paveljanik [~Pavel@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 13:54 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:55 | |
| tromp_ | ic; you're using a nonce set other than just 0..2^{N-1}-1 | 13:56 |
| tromp_ | how does that affect verification (e.g. by light clients?) | 13:57 |
| tromp_ | is the proof still the nonces as used in cuckoo, or something that generates them? | 13:58 |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:59 | |
| -!- torsthaldo [torsthaldo@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-sfkiripynbvxjvlx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:59 | |
| bramc | tromp_, The proof is to reveal the 42 edges by revealing the nonces which generated them and giving an index for each, so the proof is made a bit longer | 14:00 |
| bramc | Although not really because it's already dwarfed by the nonoutsourcable proof anyway | 14:00 |
| bramc | Since there are only 42 reveals (or less) there's still plenty of room for the one signature giving a destination. | 14:01 |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:04 | |
| tromp_ | maybe we shld let variance reduction solve itself... by waiting a few decades till the reward is much smaller:) | 14:08 |
| bramc | I'm curious what's going to happen when the rewards fall in half next time. I might buy some coin a month in advance in case the price goes up. | 14:09 |
| bramc | So p2pool is a separate project not officially related to bitcoin proper? | 14:12 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2604:5500:13:5fc:5975:6620:813:ed6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:13 | |
| tromp_ | correct | 14:13 |
| bramc | Okay, I've now finished the top thing on my todo list: organize todo list | 14:15 |
| kanzure | "officially related" is difficult, i mean what's official? bitcoin.git? | 14:17 |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 14:17 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2604:5500:13:5fc:5975:6620:813:ed6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 14:17 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@173.247.202.131] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:20 | |
| bramc | kanzure, I mean, they don't directly collaborate on planning | 14:20 |
| amiller | bramc, one of them has full proofs the other doesn't in the appendix | 14:23 |
| amiller | kanzure, ^ | 14:24 |
| kanzure | oh, uh, others would know whether or not the p2pool people have collaborated with bitcoind development | 14:24 |
| kanzure | more than i currently don't | 14:24 |
| kanzure | +know | 14:24 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, now you can start writing todo lists for your todo list items | 14:26 |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 14:30 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:30 | |
| bramc | Things left on my to review: p2pool, coinswap, the hardfork wishlist, and gmaxwell's commentary on proofs | 14:30 |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:31 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 14:35 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@42.39.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 14:36 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:43 | |
| -!- toffoo [~tof@186.205.188.251] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:44 | |
| -!- Fistful_of_Coins [~o3u@unaffiliated/o3u] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] | 14:44 | |
| -!- Fistful_of_Coins [~o3u@162.243.79.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:44 | |
| bramc | Is it possible with current bitcoin opcodes to do a smart contract for storage? That is, you can unlock something by showing a reveal of paths to a specified hash root based on the previous generation's block id? | 14:45 |
| -!- toffoo [~tof@186.205.188.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 14:46 | |
| amiller | i tried once, i think i got stuck becuase OP_CAT is disabled | 14:47 |
| bramc | Which is the opcode which satoshi dice used to pull out the root? | 14:48 |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] | 14:49 | |
| -!- op_null [~op_null@128.199.56.23] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:50 | |
| op_null | bramc: they didn't at all. | 14:50 |
| amiller | bramc, are you thinking of the oakland lottery paper | 14:50 |
| amiller | they used OP_SIZE as a hack | 14:50 |
| amiller | i doubt that's what you're talking about anyway, but that's the only surprise workaround for something related i know of | 14:50 |
| bramc | Why is op_cat disabled? Did some num-nuts make a DOS by doubling up a string repeatedly? | 14:51 |
| op_null | bramc: they published a list of hashed nonces, did something with TXID + nonce, and then paid out if the transaction was a winner. the hashed nonce would be revealed the next day to prove it was "fair". | 14:51 |
| op_null | bramc: you've got it. | 14:51 |
| op_null | bramc: nobody actually did it, but with the disabled opcodes you could blow up the stack and end up with scripts nobody in the network could verify due to their huge memory footprints. | 14:52 |
| bramc | amiller, What do you do OP_SIZE on? | 14:53 |
| amiller | lets say you wanted to do a two player rock-paper-scissors / lottery game | 14:55 |
| bramc | right | 14:55 |
| amiller | you can have each player pick a value 1 2 or 3 and commit to it by hashing it | 14:55 |
| amiller | if you hash it directly though its easy to brute force | 14:55 |
| amiller | you could do a 32 bit integer, since op_mod and the like operate on 32 bit integers but that's still sort-of easy to brute force or precompute | 14:56 |
| amiller | so until this oakland paper came out, we had all given up making lottery games like that work. | 14:56 |
| bramc | Got a link for the paper? | 14:57 |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:57 | |
| amiller | https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/784.pdf | 14:57 |
| amiller | best paper at Oakland 2014 | 14:57 |
| amiller | the amazing clever workaround they came up with is to pick a random string thats either 21, 22, or 23 bytes long | 14:58 |
| amiller | it's too big to do op_mod 3 on, but you can recover a small number by doing op_size and op_sub 20 | 14:58 |
| amiller | great, huh? | 14:59 |
| bramc | Well that's a cute hack for processing the reveal | 15:00 |
| bramc | But how are we supposed to make it so that once we've committed our money the other side can't DOS us and not let us have it if they lose out of spite? | 15:01 |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:01 | |
| bramc | it would be really handy if there was an OP_SUBSTRING | 15:02 |
| bramc | and a OP_BLOCKID | 15:02 |
| amiller | bramc, are you asking how you make sure that the other party doesn't just refuse to reveal anthing at all? | 15:03 |
| bramc | that second one being given a block number, and it would return the hash of that particular block | 15:03 |
| bramc | amiller, yes | 15:03 |
| amiller | bramc, the answer is the same as with the tiernolan protocol, you use these hashlock commit things | 15:03 |
| -!- waxwing__ [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-kgqdcrlsvqjxdrej] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:03 | |
| amiller | it's described well enough in the paper, there's also an earlier forum post by iddo that shows the same thing (except for not coming up with the op_size hack! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277048.0 ) | 15:04 |
| -!- wserd [5ef2e48c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.94.242.228.140] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:04 | |
| -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-itpbguhklbpiibtw] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 15:04 | |
| -!- waxwing__ is now known as waxwing | 15:05 | |
| bramc | Has anyone suggested adding an OP_BLOCKID which takes a block number and is timelocked until that block comes out? Doesn't seem like it hurts in any way, potentially useful for all kinds of stuff. | 15:05 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:06 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:06 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:06 | |
| amiller | bramc, sure, here's some OP_BLOCKHEIGHT / OP_DEPTH fuss http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/31183644/ | 15:06 |
| op_null | bramc: you really don't want scripts that could be valid, get orphaned, and then become invalid. | 15:07 |
| amiller | petertodd, is i think the only one who's trying to push something like that through | 15:07 |
| op_null | bramc: wait, I misread what you were asking. ignore me. | 15:07 |
| bramc | op_null, that's a bit inherent with gambling protocols, but also having a third party reveal of path to root | 15:08 |
| bramc | so while I understand the point there might be useful anyway | 15:08 |
| bramc | There's always the unavoidable form of invalidation that something could become a double spend on a reorg when it wasn't before | 15:09 |
| phantomcircuit | op_null, it probably would have been better to limit the stack space instead of remove the op codes though | 15:10 |
| phantomcircuit | or at least i think it would | 15:10 |
| phantomcircuit | maybe im missing something there | 15:11 |
| op_null | phantomcircuit: maybe, I don't know the rationale for it very well. I would have said to limit the space, but whatever, they're gone and they can't be enabled again. | 15:12 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, you can get an exponential blowup in the size of a string by repeatedly doubling it | 15:13 |
| bramc | BIP 65 is for OP_CHECKTIMELOCKVERIFY which has a stronger case than the other stuff by far, anybody know the current status of that? | 15:13 |
| op_null | I don't think anybody has any glaring issues with it at least | 15:16 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:17 | |
| -!- treehug8_ [~treehug88@34-253.as32345.tumblrhq.com] has quit [] | 15:18 | |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, so? you can easily calculate how much additional stack space you would be taking before using it | 15:18 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: I expect it to go in with BIP62 in the next couple months. (and take a bit of time to reach saturation) | 15:18 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, Oh I see you're talking about the total size of everything on the stack rather than the number of things on the stack. Yeah, capping that could work. | 15:19 |
| gmaxwell | (BIP62 also fixes the protocols with refunds, in another more limited way. So they're partially overlapping.) | 15:19 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, any idea why those op codes were disabled instead of implementing a maximum stack size? | 15:20 |
| phantomcircuit | or were those things which could be abused to make scripting turing complete? | 15:20 |
| Luke-Jr | phantomcircuit: AFAIK none of the opcodes removed were intended to be permanent | 15:21 |
| Luke-Jr | just a temporary thing to be reverted later on after testing | 15:22 |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 15:22 | |
| gmaxwell | Luke-Jr: they were not disabled in a way that facilitated that, alas. | 15:22 |
| Luke-Jr | gmaxwell: well, this was back when Satoshi did hardforks on his whim | 15:22 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: because its surprisingly hard to be sure you got it right. e.g. if you only did that you'd still have failed from the leftshift memory corruption. | 15:22 |
| Luke-Jr | (ok, maybe that's a bit exaggeratory) | 15:22 |
| gmaxwell | Luke-Jr: thats untrue. | 15:22 |
| gmaxwell | Changes made were all softforking. | 15:23 |
| bramc | so there are string cats which are in the block chain? | 15:23 |
| Luke-Jr | gmaxwell: in practice maybe, but I'm not sure if that was intentional | 15:23 |
| op_null | bramc: I don't think so, no. | 15:24 |
| gmaxwell | it very clearly was. E.g. how nlock overlays or how some of the changes triggered based on heights. It's hard to make things softforky. | 15:24 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: There are not. | 15:24 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: Your question was also a bit ambigious though I believe that the answer is the same: There could be scriptpubkeys with OP_CATs in them, but if so they could never be spent.. I don't think there are. And there cannot be any spend ones in the history at all, since they're invalid. Basically any "disabled" opcode is just not a feature of the system. | 15:27 |
| phantomcircuit | i guess the scripting engine could be expanded by using one of the OP_NOP codes as an OP_EX_OPS and then just parse stack values as a new type of script | 15:27 |
| gmaxwell | They were in there but they were disabled and ... consensus system... sooo. | 15:28 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: Sure, and _we've done that_, p2sh effectively replaced the script system. | 15:28 |
| -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 15:28 | |
| gmaxwell | (though it replaced it with a hash-nested copy of itself) | 15:28 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, yeah | 15:28 |
| gmaxwell | Same mechenism can be used. | 15:28 |
| Luke-Jr | gmaxwell: I don't recall any height-based things from back then.. | 15:28 |
| gmaxwell | Also OP_NOPs can be turned into OP_FOOVERIFY | 15:29 |
| gmaxwell | Luke-Jr: e.g. defintion of locktime changed that way. A lot of stuff wasn't really discussed... so you have to go read the old code. | 15:29 |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 15:29 | |
| bramc | How many utxos really go to script hashes these days? | 15:29 |
| op_null | in total. 15770000 P2PKH, 145000 P2SH | 15:30 |
| op_null | that's spent and unspent. | 15:30 |
| bramc | huh, mostly satoshi dice probably | 15:31 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:31 | |
| op_null | and some pay to raw pubkey. | 15:31 |
| Luke-Jr | bramc: SD shouldn't have many unspent.. | 15:31 |
| op_null | and 12,000 op_return outputs. | 15:32 |
| bramc | Luke-Jr, Yeah the spent vastly outnumber the unspent | 15:32 |
| op_null | and 215,000 raw multisig | 15:32 |
| Luke-Jr | op_null: got stats on how many raw multisig are abused for data storage? | 15:32 |
| bramc | I have mixed feelings about scripts. They're fun and interesting and all, but I'm not sure how relevant they are. | 15:32 |
| -!- askmike_ [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:33 | |
| op_null | Luke-Jr: no, I'll have to write a parser to see how many have junk pubkeys in them. | 15:33 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 15:33 | |
| Luke-Jr | op_null: that would be useful information to support making them non-IsStandard | 15:33 |
| op_null | Luke-Jr: just looking through a filtered list almost all are abuse. in the last 40 only like 10 have decodable pubkeys. | 15:34 |
| Luke-Jr | 25% is annoyingly high in this case | 15:34 |
| Luke-Jr | I wonder what's using them | 15:34 |
| op_null | 1c434e5452505254590000000000000000000000010000000253734d8000000000 = "CNTRPRTY" | 15:34 |
| gmaxwell | op_null: spent and upspent is a little distorted... much better to look at the most recent blocks. since it's change a lot. | 15:35 |
| Luke-Jr | op_null: I mean the legit ones | 15:35 |
| bramc | by 'abuse', you mean people throwing crap into the block chain as a distributed storage system? | 15:35 |
| Luke-Jr | bramc: yes | 15:35 |
| op_null | yeah it's all counterparty. ballparking I would say 75% raw multisig are CNTRPRTY. | 15:35 |
| Luke-Jr | bramc: or really anything where the keys aren't keys | 15:35 |
| Luke-Jr | op_null: but what are the non-abusive ones? | 15:36 |
| bramc | How do those get accepted by miners? | 15:36 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, they look like a normal multisig transaction | 15:36 |
| Luke-Jr | bramc: spammers make it politically hard to get defaults changed, and most miners are neglegent at configuring their policies | 15:37 |
| phantomcircuit | they just have bad signatures | 15:37 |
| Luke-Jr | eg https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5231 | 15:37 |
| gmaxwell | In any case, 4.6% of all bitcoins are in p2sh outputs. | 15:37 |
| -!- askmike_ [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 15:38 | |
| -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 15:38 | |
| op_null | Luke-Jr: actually it's more like 90%+ are counterparty. there's one dude making lots of them spending outputs all from one address. couple of normal looking ones without anything interesting about them. | 15:39 |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 15:39 | |
| gmaxwell | bramc: so script allows things like threshold multisignature (which see ^ is used and important) sort of worth it for that alone. But then you also have the potential for things like the atomic swaps, but as you see, it's currently underutilized (somewhat for technical reasons). | 15:39 |
| bramc | Yes I'm sold on the utility of threshold multisignatures and hash preimages and locktimes | 15:40 |
| gmaxwell | There are also a lot of usecases lost to things that were disabled; so e.g. the original potential was much better. | 15:40 |
| op_null | Luke-Jr: here's a "normal" one, there's very few though. I'll scrape some proper stats at some point to find all the counterparty ones. d6bfbf12c247617e5d3f36f74d2d214fabff96a58f416472034db6879c6f6632 | 15:41 |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-85.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:41 | |
| bramc | Those things could all be supported with a much, much simpler scripting system | 15:42 |
| Luke-Jr | bramc: only if someone thought of them in advance | 15:42 |
| Luke-Jr | but now we need OP_X86VERIFY | 15:42 |
| bramc | I assume that was a joke | 15:43 |
| Luke-Jr | :P | 15:43 |
| op_null | Luke-Jr: OP_JAVASCRIPTVERIFY | 15:43 |
| op_null | get with the times. | 15:43 |
| Luke-Jr | op_null: that one's more horror than joke | 15:43 |
| bramc | Extensibility is a bit different. All of the things I just said are individual checks and the requirement for a signature could be that any of a given set of subsets of the individual checks is a valid signature | 15:44 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: only if you enumerate them in advance, which is a risky thing to try doing. | 15:44 |
| bramc | You could allow the addition of new individual types of verifications without having a forth-like thing in there | 15:44 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: We call that kind of criteria thresholding a monotone function. Classical signature criteria are montone functions. | 15:45 |
| bramc | Granted that could always be extended by adding a new check which has forth built in, but most of the 'obvious' stuff remains very simple. | 15:45 |
| gmaxwell | Yes you could, but there are things you cannot do... e.g. take this blocb verify it matches, check some criteria in it. | 15:45 |
| -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:45 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 15:45 | |
| gmaxwell | bramc: the redundancy there isn't necessarily great: more things to test and have consensus splits in. | 15:45 |
| -!- super3 [~Thunderbi@mobile-166-173-249-115.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 15:46 | |
| bramc | It's a tradeoff of where the complexity is. The existing system hasn't had a great record of allowing new functionality without also having new opcodes to at least help. | 15:47 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:48 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@2601:1:9600:928:b2:fc36:f9c3:2cf4] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 15:49 | |
| bramc | I still need to read through coinswap and figure what exactly that needs | 15:49 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 15:49 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:50 | |
| gmaxwell | same thing as atomic swaps, fortunately. Plus multisig. | 15:50 |
| op_null | Luke-Jr: it's worse than you think :( | 15:50 |
| Luke-Jr | op_null: "worse" means "more legitimate use" | 15:50 |
| op_null | Luke-Jr: I meant javascript crypto, | 15:51 |
| Luke-Jr | o | 15:51 |
| Luke-Jr | not sure it can get any worse than I think | 15:51 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: In any case; ... the basic principle here is that if you create a decenteralized money but to do _anything_ interesting you have to hand it over to a trusted entity you're really not able to realize the value. The more that can be done without that, the more Bitcoin's value can be actualized. In theory. In reality we're not quite living up to that, but to some extent just showing the possibility is enough for now. e.g. people ... | 15:54 |
| gmaxwell | ... arn't using it yet, but the value of having a decenteralized currency is more obvious when you realize other things can be done. | 15:55 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 15:55 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:59 | |
| -!- c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n | 16:05 | |
| -!- toffoo [~tof@unaffiliated/toffoo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:07 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:08 | |
| -!- super3 [~Thunderbi@166.173.249.115] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:08 | |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-85.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 16:08 | |
| -!- askmike_ [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:09 | |
| -!- askmike_ [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 16:11 | |
| -!- askmike_ [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:11 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 16:13 | |
| -!- askmike_ [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 16:16 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:21 | |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:22 | |
| -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:24 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 16:25 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:28 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:28 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:29 | |
| -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 16:30 | |
| -!- op_null [~op_null@128.199.56.23] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] | 16:31 | |
| -!- wserd [5ef2e48c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.94.242.228.140] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] | 16:40 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:41 | |
| -!- torsthaldo [torsthaldo@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-sfkiripynbvxjvlx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 16:48 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 16:49 | |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 16:49 | |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:51 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162.245.22.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 17:06 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@67.pool85-53-142.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:08 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:08 | |
| -!- jb55_ [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:11 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 17:12 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 17:14 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 17:15 | |
| -!- jb55_ [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 17:15 | |
| -!- super3 [~Thunderbi@166.173.249.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 17:15 | |
| -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a6277.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:22 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] | 17:23 | |
| -!- gues_ [~gues@193.138.219.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 17:33 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 17:40 | |
| -!- gues [~gues@cpe-66-68-54-206.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:46 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:9:4680:dd0:a8f5:a389:45bb:a383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:52 | |
| -!- Graftec [~Graftec@gateway/tor-sasl/graftec] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 17:52 | |
| -!- Graftec [~Graftec@gateway/tor-sasl/graftec] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:52 | |
| -!- warptangent [~warptange@unaffiliated/warptangent] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 17:53 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:53 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:58 | |
| -!- warptangent [~warptange@unaffiliated/warptangent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:58 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:08 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 18:13 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:15 | |
| -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz | 18:17 | |
| -!- c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n | 18:19 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:20 | |
| -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz | 18:24 | |
| -!- warptangent [~warptange@unaffiliated/warptangent] has quit [Quit: bah bah quit quit] | 18:30 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:31 | |
| -!- atgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:32 | |
| -!- warptangent [~warptange@unaffiliated/warptangent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:37 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:39 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 18:43 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:47 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:47 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] | 18:53 | |
| -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:55 | |
| -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 18:59 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:08 | |
| -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-175-70.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:10 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 19:13 | |
| -!- prepost [rs232@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-onvxinrmcnlroeyj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 19:30 | |
| -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a6277.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] | 19:31 | |
| -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a6277.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:42 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:42 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:4d54:74fd:e0e0:d8d9] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 19:44 | |
| -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a6277.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has quit [Client Quit] | 19:46 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 19:46 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:08 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 20:29 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:30 | |
| -!- OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt | 20:50 | |
| -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:55 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:05 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:08 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 21:13 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:9:4680:dd0:a8f5:a389:45bb:a383] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 21:24 | |
| -!- Greed` [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:38 | |
| -!- Greed [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 21:39 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@67.pool85-53-142.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 21:40 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@c-67-169-47-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:47 | |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@c-69-254-243-205.hsd1.ks.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:48 | |
| -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 21:49 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:08 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 22:13 | |
| -!- hguux_ [sid17919@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xgvxhwtihrnfvncv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 22:21 | |
| -!- hguux_ [sid17919@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ymxpheowbgrbygcd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:22 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:45cb:d012:d597:6862] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:46 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:49 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:45cb:d012:d597:6862] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 22:51 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:109f:4291:d38f:9018] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:55 | |
| -!- ubuntu_ [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:04 | |
| -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 23:06 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:08 | |
| -!- Guest84438 is now known as maaku | 23:08 | |
| maaku | anyone here interested in decentralized prediction markets, send me a PM | 23:09 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@82-170-96-217.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 23:13 | |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@c-69-254-243-205.hsd1.ks.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 23:17 | |
| -!- ubuntu_ [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 23:21 | |
| -!- ubuntu_ [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:24 | |
| -!- ubuntu_ [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 23:28 | |
| -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a6277.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:30 | |
| Taek | maaku are you talking augur or truthcoin? | 23:43 |
| -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 23:44 | |
| -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust570.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:44 | |
| -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust570.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] | 23:44 | |
| -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:44 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:51 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 23:52 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:52 | |
| -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a6277.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] | 23:52 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~Pavel@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:52 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!