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| bramc | Good morning everybody | 10:29 |
|---|---|---|
| bramc | A friend of mine asked if I know Jed. It's like, yeah, I know Jed, but he isn't responding to my mail. | 10:29 |
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| bramc | Now I'm reading how siphash works internally. The level of yak shaving here is truly astounding. | 10:52 |
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| nsh_ | i bet i could shave 100 yaks | 11:05 |
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| lechuga_ | no man can shave 100 yaks | 11:15 |
| sipa | bramc: how so? i never really heard about siphash | 11:16 |
| bramc | sipa, It's used in cuckoo, and I'm trying to integrate cuckoo and nonoutsourceability, and this requires creating a data dependence... | 11:18 |
| bramc | This discussion has mostly moved to ##altcoin-dev because it was getting far enough afield to get on peoples's nerves, and there are some of the same people in that channel too. | 11:20 |
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| bramc | I'm waffling on whether I think it's better to put timelocks in transactions or utxos. It seems cleaner for them to be in transactions, but it does less polluting of the block chain and hence has more anonymity if they're in transactions | 12:34 |
| bramc | because in many protocols the timelocks are the exceptional case and never get used. | 12:35 |
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| Eliel_ | having timelocks in utxos is more secure as with a timelocked transaction there tends to be some party who can cancel it. | 12:44 |
| Eliel_ | usually the sender | 12:45 |
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| bramc | Usually the whole point of a timelocked transaction is that you might want to cancel it | 12:47 |
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| Eliel_ | I think it's probably the best to support both. | 12:50 |
| Eliel_ | there are use cases where timelock in the utxo is preferable. | 12:51 |
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| pigeons | i guess an important consideration with the timelock stuff is unintended effects from reorgs | 13:00 |
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| gmaxwell | bramc: The use cases are only partially overlapping. Both have uses. There is a general mechenism that effectively unifies both, but to be honest. .. not really excited about designing your altcoin for you; esp after you've already expressed a desire to keep parts of it secret. | 13:19 |
| gmaxwell | But whatever, might as well since I've described it before. I call the general discussion delegation. Bitcoin's code seperator was supposted to accomplish delegation but it was bugged. The notion is that I should be able to construct a signature which provides a new scriptPubKey and a signature of it with the old scriptPubkey. Basically saying "I sign over that old scriptPubKey to whatever t | 13:22 |
| gmaxwell | his new one says. | 13:22 |
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| gmaxwell | By doing this you can leave timelocks out of the transaction, and then if a spending transaction wants a timelock, it delegates to a new scriptPubkey in the signature that has one, then satisifies that key too. | 13:22 |
| gmaxwell | Now, even with delegation there can be strong advantages to having all of the validation state in a transaction explicit in its serialization; because that allows the validity of a transaction to be a pure function... which is useful for layering, and simplifies things like mempools. | 13:23 |
| gmaxwell | (or making code that works with transactions externally to the blockchain) | 13:24 |
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| gmaxwell | Efficient delegation is one of the top level really-wants on my script 2.0 design list. (along with branch elision) | 13:25 |
| Taek | has there been a ton of discussion on a script 2.0? | 13:26 |
| hearn | gmaxwell: afaik OP_CODESEPARATOR was an artifact of the first implementation where scripts were concatenated | 13:26 |
| hearn | gmaxwell: not intended to support any particular feature | 13:26 |
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| hearn | it can be seen in the very first version of the code, i think | 13:27 |
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| lechuga_ | // In case concatenating two scripts ends up with two codeseparators, | 13:29 |
| lechuga_ | // or an extra one at the end, this prevents all those possible incompatibilities. | 13:29 |
| gmaxwell | hearn: what lechuga_ said. :) | 13:29 |
| gmaxwell | It really was intended to allow cascading scripts too, as far as I can tell. | 13:30 |
| gmaxwell | (obviously I'm aware of how it was used prior to the pub/sig seperation, too) | 13:30 |
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| petertodd | hearn: even now you can use OP_CODESEPARATOR to implement efficient payword schemes | 14:13 |
| petertodd | hearn: early on you could have used it to do some really useful after-the-fact signing delegation by wrapping a IF ENDIF around the CODESEPARATOR introduced into the middle of the scriptSig/scriptPubKey pair - shame we got rid of that without thinking the design through | 14:14 |
| petertodd | hearn: e.g. "create a signature that delegates signing authority to another pubkey" | 14:15 |
| petertodd | probably all 100% accidental... but a nice accident | 14:15 |
| hearn | it's probably for the best. i can imagine such things being a surprise for implementations not expecting them. a script 2.0 effort that incorporates lots of neat features but still lets script 1.0 work would be nice to have, one day | 14:16 |
| petertodd | satoshi belived in 1 implementation, and by putting CODESEPARATOR into the scriptSig/scriptPubKey concatenation you had to opt-in to making that feature possible to use in any particular scriptPubKey | 14:17 |
| petertodd | w/o the mis-matched ENDIF you can't pull off that trick because you can't turn CODESEPARATOR off | 14:17 |
| petertodd | to be explicit: scriptPubKey: ENDIF <pubkey> CHECKSIG, then the normal case is scriptSig: <signature> 1 IF | 14:19 |
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| petertodd | they concatenate to <signature> 1 IF ENDIF <pubkey> CHECKSIG, CODESEPARATOR is evaluated, and the signature is evaluated on the script ENDIF <pubkey> CHECKSIG | 14:19 |
| petertodd | to delegate signing authority after the fact sign a signature on the script <pubkey2> 0 IF ENDIF <pubkey> CHECKSIG | 14:20 |
| petertodd | (remember that CODESEPARATORS are removed by SignatureHash()) | 14:21 |
| petertodd | oops, I mean: <pubkey2> CHECKSIGVERIFY 0 IF ENDIF <pubkey> CHECKSIG | 14:22 |
| petertodd | anyway, to finally spend it, create another signature with pubkey2 signing the script <pubkey2> CHECKSIGVERIFY 0 IF ENDIF <pubkey> CHECKSIG again, and finally spend it with the scriptSig: <pubkey-sig> <pubkey2-sig> CODESEPARATOR <pubkey2> 0 IF | 14:22 |
| petertodd | after concatenation the script: <pubkey-sig> <pubkey2-sig> CODESEPARATOR <pubkey2> 0 IF CODESEPARATOR ENDIF <pubkey> CHECKSIG is evaluated, the inner signature satisfies, and the outer signature is satisfied only if the scriptPubKey was essentially changed after the fact to also require the inner, second, pubkey2 to be satisfied | 14:24 |
| petertodd | a nice use-case would, forinstance, have been to have a signing robot be able to create signatures offline for a given txout with SIGHASH_SINGLE such that you had a spending limit enforced, and exactly who was then allowed to spend the funds - say a department of a company - could be picked after the fact without re-spending the txout | 14:26 |
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| petertodd | gmaxwell: re: script validation state, a good model would be to have the tx input to EvalScript() essentially be a CMerkleTx, and the prevout scriptPubKey be the prevout CTxOut (*maybe* the prevout tx itself... bit dubious there...) | 14:33 |
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| bramc | gmaxwell, Not entirely sure what you're describing, but giving utxos some degree of control over the utxos of their targets is very powerful, and makes a number of protocols much simpler. It may even be necessary for some protocols if you're stuck with utxos being referenced by transaction + signature | 15:03 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, You'll be happy to hear that I'm probably going to want to discuss the interesting part of my 'secret' idea with everybody. I'm pretty sure you're going to shit on it though. | 15:10 |
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| bramc | I'm busy working through a bunch of other stuff first though. Right now still trying to work through nonoutsourcable proofs of work | 15:11 |
| helo | a proctored exam with only pencil and paper might work | 15:12 |
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| bramc | As far as smart transaction support, mechanisms for supporting them are very interesting but I continue to be very skeptical than anything beyond some very basic functionality is useful/needed, especially given how much can be done with even simple primitives. | 15:13 |
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| petertodd | bramc: yeah, UTXO control is needed for the fidelity-bonded ledgers I was working on last year - AKA federated sidechains + fraud punishment/protection. | 16:40 |
| petertodd | bramc: basically the fraud punishment script evaluates proofs of fraud by the signers, allows a tx to be created returning some of the funds back to their rightful owners, leaving the rest controlled by the same rules. slightly more complex version would use the "rachetting" mechanism to discover what was the longest chain signed by the federated signers first - the utxo control in the latter case implements state, thus finding the longest chain | 16:42 |
| bramc | petertodd, fidelity-bonded ledgers are on my list of things to figure out, is there a good link for it? | 16:42 |
| petertodd | bramc: may be combined with more recent proof-of-publication theory to ensure the chain is simply the most recent published on the master blockchain | 16:42 |
| petertodd | bramc: search for that term on the bitcoin-dev mailing list - had a whole write up on it | 16:43 |
| petertodd | bramc: main thing I didn't make clear enough back then was fraud can *also* be an absense of an action - e.g. satisfying a withdrawl request by a customer - I thought it was obvious at the time, but apparently not :/ | 16:43 |
| bramc | This post? http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/30531383/ | 16:44 |
| petertodd | bramc: that's why last year I was talking about proof-of-publication with regard to the fraud proofs themselves - there must be conensus about all the *known fraud* for the fidelity bond to work, particularly, the ability to sell fidelity bonds, which is in turn critical to ensuring they are valuable even when the owner wants to disconvintue the service | 16:44 |
| kanzure | http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg01786.html | 16:44 |
| petertodd | yeah | 16:44 |
| kanzure | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146307.0 | 16:45 |
| petertodd | yup, that too | 16:45 |
| petertodd | and lots of bitcoin-wizards discussion :/ unfortunately a bunch of it was done in private between me and gmaxwell too; probably should post those logs one of these days | 16:46 |
| bramc | kanzure, Already had that link on my todo list | 16:46 |
| petertodd | bramc: anyway, the key thing to understand with this fraud proof stuff, is the whole purpose is basically to trade off resources for a type of "trust but verify" "consensus" | 16:47 |
| bramc | petertodd, I'm still not sure what at a high level fidelity bonded transactions really do | 16:48 |
| petertodd | bramc: so there isn't global consensus about what actually happened, but there is global consensus that as far as anyone knows that entity hasn't been accued/proven of fraud yet | 16:48 |
| petertodd | bramc: do you think you know at a high level what a fidelity bond is? | 16:48 |
| petertodd | *accused/proven | 16:49 |
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| bramc | petertodd, I know what I read on wikipedia just now | 16:51 |
| petertodd | bramc: haha, that's not it :) fidelity bonding in this context is crypto-specific | 16:51 |
| bramc | In that case I have no idea | 16:52 |
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| petertodd | so in an abstract sense, I make a crypto identity, I make that identity expensive to obtain by sacrificing some value, I make a promise to adhere to some crypto-verifiable protocol, where fraud can be cheaply proven, and if anyone has evidence of fraud, they publish it via some public medium and everyone else stops trusting that crypto identity | 16:53 |
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| kanzure | and person with fraud evidence gets the bond value? | 16:54 |
| gmaxwell | it's even more powerful if publishing proof of fraud can get you paid a little bit, to incentivize actually disclosing it when you find it. | 16:54 |
| kanzure | but it's not required in the definition? | 16:54 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: they can't get all of it usually, without creating incentive problems. | 16:54 |
| petertodd | if the fidelity bond can be *sold* to another party, the actual holder can be anonymous as even if they chose to disconinue using the identity it still has value, so no incentive to commit fraud | 16:54 |
| gmaxwell | (e.g. where you commit fraud then race to report yourself) | 16:54 |
| gmaxwell | the idea of getting paid is just to overcome indifference to reporting it and pay for the cost of doing so. | 16:55 |
| gmaxwell | otherwise it's important that you can't just cash it out. | 16:55 |
| petertodd | the trick is if you are to sell them, then proofs of fraud often *must* be done on a proof-of-publication medium - like a block chain - or the buyer has no way of knowing if there is unchallenged fraud out there. (though I've since realised you can use proof-of-publication with the *actions* instead) | 16:56 |
| kanzure | what's the right heuristics for users that are aware that someone has a "reputational bond"? e.g. try not to transact in amounts greater than or equal to the amount recoverable in the event of a fraud proof? | 16:56 |
| petertodd | kanzure: with a bank it'd be "don't have more deposits than the bond is worth" | 16:56 |
| petertodd | kanzure: easy to prove with merkle-sum-trees, though there can be edge cases re: accepting a bunch of deposits at once that have to be handled carefully | 16:56 |
| petertodd | fwiw it was fun bringing up this stuff with some regulators at the recent barclays hackathon I was at - blew their minds that not only were banks often made obsolete when trust is *not* involved, but also when it *is* involved - goes against the existing regulatory assumptions on a whole lot of levels | 16:59 |
| kanzure | on a non wizardly note i have been trying to prioritize which awesome things to show regulators | 17:00 |
| petertodd | for instance, there is pressure on these systems to ensure that things like account ledgers are *not* cryptographically verifiable as that forces trust to remain involved, benefiting profiting third-parties like clearance houses, as well as regulators that would prefer identity to remain an integral part of these systems | 17:00 |
| petertodd | kanzure: ^ regulators don't necessarily think this stuff is awesome at all | 17:00 |
| kanzure | heh | 17:01 |
| kanzure | (news incoming soon) | 17:01 |
| petertodd | kanzure: remember, from their point of view they ususally ant 100% visibility into everything that happens, and anything that discourages that or enables alternate ways of operating is bad | 17:01 |
| petertodd | kanzure: ???? | 17:01 |
| petertodd | s/ant/want/ | 17:01 |
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| petertodd | you can sometimes argue the opposite - crypto can ensure visibility through visibility proofs - but it can go either way | 17:02 |
| amiller | proof-of-publication, to the extent it's defined clearly at all, doesn't seem a sufficient explanation for a bunch of things | 17:03 |
| amiller | you can publish something and yet everyone can forget about it | 17:03 |
| petertodd | amiller: you seen my uniquebits proof-of-concept? | 17:03 |
| amiller | especially in some hypothetical alt coin where there are orders of magnitude more transactions because there isn't the pressure to fight spam etc. | 17:03 |
| petertodd | so in the case of a bank-to-bank relationship, basically it just ensures that the version of the other parties records that you see is the same one everyone else sees - proof-of-publication does *not* require the actual data to be published, hashes + sigs are sufficient | 17:04 |
| amiller | petertodd, yes but it seems so inefficient as to not be a solution, at least not in the cirucmstances i just described where there's either many more transactions or the cost of data included here is greater | 17:05 |
| petertodd | amiller: you realise the incredibly ugly thing about this for you guys is that systems like uniquebits are much more secure, and for the people who need them they can outbid practically anyone else for proof-of-publication "bandwidth" *and* the way you use this stuff is *strongly* uncensorable | 17:06 |
| amiller | if i were to define rigorously what i think you mean by "proof-of-publication", it would count if everyone alert and online at the time that a message is published 'sees' that message but immediately discards it afterward | 17:06 |
| petertodd | amiller: of course it would - using a blockchain is just a way of guaranteeing the message actualy gets to the people who might want to see it | 17:07 |
| petertodd | amiller: remember that a genuinely jam free network would replace the blockchain | 17:07 |
| amiller | so, add-ons to proof-of-publication might include, proof-of-archival, or proof-of-inclusion-in-an-efficiently-queryable-index | 17:07 |
| petertodd | yup | 17:07 |
| amiller | the latter is exactly what the UTXO set provides, and what ethereum contract storage provides for that matter | 17:07 |
| petertodd | indeed, which means any assumptions about UTXO set growth are bogus | 17:08 |
| petertodd | there are *very* strong incentives for people to use this stuff over much less secure alternatives like Factom's federated model, that requires trusted third parties | 17:09 |
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| petertodd | amiller: re cost of data, notice how my uniquebits app has the *exact same cost* to do proof-of-publication to secure a set of accounting records as it costs to do *any transaction at all* - which is no surprise given that bitcoin is a proof-of-publication system | 17:15 |
| petertodd | amiller: (well, what I actually implemented was a PGP signature, but obviously that's trivially replaced with a scriptPubKey) | 17:16 |
| petertodd | and my scheme that commits to the next published step makes it completely uncensorable | 17:16 |
| amiller | the point that i'm making for bramc's benefit especially, is that proof-of-publication isn't sufficient for everything | 17:17 |
| amiller | updating the UTXO index to make certain kinds of things efficiently queryable is important too | 17:17 |
| petertodd | well currently it's tough to extract proofs-of-non-publication from bitcoin, but any UTXO index will make that easy | 17:18 |
| petertodd | (where said proofs are meant to be SPV compatible of course - obviously the blockchain is such a proof) | 17:19 |
| amiller | not any UTXO index makes all proofs-of-non-publication easy | 17:19 |
| amiller | you can only do nonmembership proofs when the index is designed to support that | 17:19 |
| amiller | the general form is, you might want to prove that there's no message m that's been published of the form P(m) for some arbitrary predicate P | 17:20 |
| amiller | current utxo basically supports lookup by transaction id hash and that's it | 17:20 |
| petertodd | sure, you could make the UTXO commitment be an unsorted merkle tree, but or, say, one sorted by time, but then SPV wallets can't use it to determine if people have been hiding payments from them | 17:21 |
| petertodd | (again, this is because of the fundemental link between tx's and proof-of-publication...) | 17:22 |
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| amiller | i can't figure out if you're taking an opposing position to the point i'm making or not | 17:22 |
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| petertodd | well, I'm more making the point that any UTXO commitment that doesn't have that property isn't anywhere near as useful as one that does | 17:23 |
| petertodd | there's a reaosn why all UTXO commitment proposals to date have had that property, with the funny exception of my TXO commitment proposal, which has always been suggested in conjunction with a separate per-block index | 17:24 |
| petertodd | heck, I kinda remember bringing up this use-case as a reason *not* to do UTXO commitments with that type of query, and instead to stick to per-block indexes... IE, specifically to make proof-of-publication harder | 17:25 |
| amiller | i can't tell if you are intending 'proof of publication' to include all possible uses of a utxo-like index | 17:25 |
| amiller | or whether it refers to what you can do without any utxo index | 17:25 |
| petertodd | proof-of-publication is a general concept; how efficient the proofs are is a matter of how the implementation works; a merkleized binary prefix tree makes the proofs very efficient | 17:26 |
| amiller | i think you're being confusing here | 17:27 |
| petertodd | how is that confusing? | 17:27 |
| amiller | as i understand it proof-of-publication is supported by one kind of index arguably the kind that we already have | 17:27 |
| amiller | but i'm trying to point out that there are other legitimate things to want that aren't captured by "proof-of-publication" and you'd want additional indexes to support those | 17:28 |
| petertodd | ok, so, the key thing with proof-of-publication is in 99% of cases it needs to be accompanied by "proof-of-non-publication" to be useful | 17:28 |
| petertodd | right now, for bitcoin a proof-of-non-publication requires ~ all blocks in the time interval of interest (less if you get clever with sha256 midstates) | 17:28 |
| amiller | right sure | 17:29 |
| petertodd | a UTXO commitment does with a binary prefix tree keyed by scriptPubKey makes non-publication easy to prove; even keyed by txid it's still doable-albeit a pain in the ass | 17:30 |
| petertodd | similarly many types of per-block indexes provide similar guarantees, but at n log n space rather than log n | 17:30 |
| amiller | okay so a utxo commitment with binary prefix tree by scriptPubKey is still not general enough to account for all reasonable uses of utxo-like indexes | 17:30 |
| amiller | proof-of-non-publication as i understand it roughly says you can prove that a message M was *not* published | 17:31 |
| petertodd | I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying for the purpose of proof-of-publication it is general enough | 17:31 |
| amiller | that's different than saying that there is no published message M such that P(M), for example | 17:31 |
| amiller | ok | 17:31 |
| amiller | sure, for the purpose of proof-of-(non)-publication, a simple utxo index is sufficient... | 17:31 |
| petertodd | yeah, which is (part) of why I've argued *against* utxo indexes with unlimited size - precisely because they're useful for my proof-of-publication ideas! | 17:32 |
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| amiller | i started by saying "Proof-of-Publication" is inadequate for describing all the things you'd want to do with a UTXO-like index, and you responded with "a simple UTXO index is sufficient to implement proof-of-(non)publication" which is a nonsequitur | 17:33 |
| amiller | that's what i think is confusing! | 17:33 |
| petertodd | right, I see why that was confusing | 17:33 |
| petertodd | amiller: keep in mind I frequently am reseaching ideas that could be construed as economic exploits, so we better figure out how useful those exploits are, how censorship resistant they are, and design bitcoin accordingly | 17:34 |
| amiller | yeah | 17:34 |
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| petertodd | whereas I get the sense other people are viewing those ideas as exploits, and responding to that by telling people to stop doing them, without bothering to fully understand the scope of them - you don't understand that unless you spend a lot of time improving those "exploits" as much as possible | 17:35 |
| petertodd | e.g. there's a hell of a lot of misinformation going around about how easy to censor this stuff is - turns out it's incredibly difficult to censor | 17:35 |
| petertodd | often flat out impossible | 17:35 |
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| bramc | Okay, I just read the backlog. I'm not sure what 'fraud' is here. The main use case is 'this person didn't hand over my gold in meatspace' which seems like a very he said she said unprovable thing. | 17:58 |
| bramc | Also by proof of not publication does that mean 'proof that nobody levied an accusation against me'? | 18:00 |
| bramc | Unfortunately now I need to run, have a good night everybody. | 18:01 |
| petertodd | bramc: well, in the case of an off-chain bank, fraud may be "you didn't give me my money when I asked fo rit back" | 18:02 |
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