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| kanzure | "Proof-of-concept: Deterministic SSH (ed25519) key generation from a master secret + key handle"" https://github.com/mithrandi/ssh-key-generator | 06:17 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | "If you use the same keypair to access someaccount@somehost and otheraccount@otherhost, someone who observes that both accounts have the same public key for login knows that the two accounts (most probably) belong to the same person. Sometimes this is undesireable for privacy reasons, but the only way to avoid it is to generate two different keypairs for use with the two different hosts. Generating a keypair is not hard, but managing ... | 06:18 |
| kanzure | ... large numbers of keypairs like this (eg. one per host) individually is difficult and tedious to do; this proof-of-concept shows that you can have the multiple keypairs without needing to store / manage / back up anything more than a single "master key". Meanwhile, someone looking at the public keys can not tell that the keys are related, so privacy is retained." | 06:18 |
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| op_mul | kanzure: did you read about the hidden services that got exposed because they listened with the same host fingerprint on ipv4? :) | 06:20 |
| kanzure | a little part of me just died a little | 06:20 |
| op_mul | I don't know the detail, or even where I read that, but still | 06:21 |
| kanzure | there are only so many remaining parts of me that are available to die, you know | 06:23 |
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| op_mul | "Student Uses the Blockchain to Develop Censorship-Resistant Messaging App" | 06:30 |
| op_mul | is that helping? | 06:30 |
| op_mul | it's a software kit that stuffs messages into bitcoin transactions! | 06:30 |
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| adam3us | op_mul: stupid idea | 06:36 |
| op_mul | of course it is. but the author is dutch. | 06:36 |
| jgarzik | I do worry that botnets will start using blockchain for C&C | 06:38 |
| kanzure | why is that worrying? | 06:38 |
| op_mul | jgarzik: seems like a horrible way to do it. you'd need to have a full node on every single zombie, or use a remote API which can be sinkholed. | 06:40 |
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| kanzure | i would be more worried about things like micropayment channels for DDOS etc | 06:40 |
| op_mul | a small 100,000 zombie botnet would probably kill the bitcoin network entirely if you tried to fire up a SPV client on all of them. | 06:40 |
| op_mul | take comfort in that it's probably impossible to do such a thing. or at least if somebody tried it would destroy bitcoin before any malicious use was made of it. | 06:42 |
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| jgarzik | You don't need to actually run clients at all | 06:45 |
| jgarzik | just query public sites | 06:45 |
| jgarzik | burden them | 06:45 |
| op_mul | yeah. they'd just be abused to sinkhole the zombies, same as every botnet ever | 06:46 |
| op_mul | it's not like blockchain.info and whatever other sites provide SPV proofs | 06:46 |
| op_mul | they can make fake outputs all day long | 06:46 |
| jgarzik | sure. it's always a game of whack-a-mole. bitcoin query sites are sufficiently spread out that you could easily have C&C compartmentalized, such that i.e. part of the botnet looks at blockchain.info, part looks at insight.io, other explorers. | 06:48 |
| jgarzik | enough web apis and explorers out there | 06:49 |
| sipa | what is C&C? | 06:49 |
| op_mul | they could all sinkhole and control the botnet though | 06:49 |
| op_mul | sipa: command and control. the heart of a botnet. | 06:49 |
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| sipa | lol | 06:49 |
| adam3us | sipa: command & control | 06:49 |
| sipa | really? | 06:49 |
| sipa | that sounds ridiculously inefficient | 06:50 |
| sipa | like, painfully slow and hard to implement | 06:50 |
| stonecoldpat | jgarzik: thats what our paper @ fc will be talking about | 06:50 |
| op_mul | most botnets use IRC as their C&C so. not bright people running them. | 06:50 |
| jgarzik | "most" ? :) Or just the lower tier dumb ones that are easily spotted? :) | 06:51 |
| stonecoldpat | you can stuff the commands inside the OP_RETURN and then just send it down the network, all the bots can simply be SPV clients... | 06:51 |
| op_mul | (only know this because someone used an IRC network I was on to run their C&C from, nobody could work out what all the load was from until.. yeah) | 06:51 |
| jgarzik | I've definitely seen several strains that use more sophisticated P2P techniques | 06:51 |
| jgarzik | one botnet herder on reddit was quite sophisticated | 06:51 |
| adam3us | but thats even stupider than this chat app - c&c for botnet can just implement or copy a simple p2p protocol. | 06:51 |
| jgarzik | blockchain C&C free-rides on collective defense of everyone else wanting to keep bitcoin running | 06:52 |
| op_mul | I think all the block explorer sites they are using would just be happy to poison the network and be rid of it. | 06:53 |
| op_mul | if they tried connecting to the bitcoin p2p network, it would just collapse. | 06:53 |
| hearn | sipa: if you have an SPV client, maybe not | 06:54 |
| op_mul | hearn: an SPV client would cripple the network. | 06:54 |
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| sipa | hearn: sure, it's doable - but still massively harder than just implementing IRC | 06:54 |
| hearn | IRC servers tend to get whacked by law enforcement. the biggest/most professional botnets use their own p2p structure for that reason, and i imagine using bitcoin or less work than doing your own p2p network | 06:55 |
| sipa | hearn: still a huge difference between using the bitcoin p2p network as broadcast mechanism, and using actual transactions inside the blockchain | 06:55 |
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| kanzure | what was the blue/red malware page. hrm. | 06:56 |
| op_mul | hearn: pretty sure there's a botnet with a C&C on reddit.com too. check these posts. https://www.reddit.com/r/A858DE45F56D9BC9/ | 06:56 |
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| hearn | yeah | 06:58 |
| hearn | botnets are scourge | 06:58 |
| stonecoldpat | op_mul: it depends if you consider the bot doing anything malicious, they can just act as normal users (perhaps the stronger bots support the network and the weaker ones are SPV), which would in fact support the network | 06:58 |
| kanzure | "blue pill" maybe? | 06:58 |
| op_mul | stonecoldpat: if they were full nodes the people who's computers were being invaded would notice. if they were SPV they would overwhelm the bitcoin network. I don't think there's a balance to be had there | 06:59 |
| stonecoldpat | op_mul: depends on the users getting infacted, not everyone would notice bitcoin traffic in the background | 07:00 |
| stonecoldpat | infected** | 07:00 |
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| op_mul | most people would notice their CPU red hot, their disk full and their internet slow though. | 07:00 |
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| stonecoldpat | op_mul: I don't really think a lot of normal people would notice that, and who says that the bot cant be intelligent to throttle the download/upload speed to make sure a difference isnt noticed? (just do a speed test, and set a threshold of 30% under that) | 07:02 |
| stonecoldpat | though it would be interesting to know how many SPV clients the network could handle | 07:02 |
| op_mul | the answer is "not many" | 07:02 |
| sipa | stonecoldpat: you're mixing his comments | 07:02 |
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| hearn | one botnet shipped with a fully copy of tor | 07:02 |
| kanzure | there used to be an article on the interwebs describing a sort of malware that defended itself against other malware, as well as did optimal infection planning with its neighbor peers. | 07:02 |
| sipa | stonecoldpat: if you're talking about botnet units running a full node, i'm sure many people would notice | 07:03 |
| kanzure | for some reason i can't find this page anymore :( | 07:03 |
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| op_mul | there's only 6500 listening nodes on the network. that's not very many SPV peers. | 07:03 |
| stonecoldpat | sipa: I mean, if your running a full node, you can still limit the amount of work the computer is doing to make it less noticable. | 07:04 |
| stonecoldpat | although i would have imagined the botnet primarily being SPV users who connect/disconnect periodically | 07:05 |
| stonecoldpat | if your relying on commands being stored in a blockchain | 07:05 |
| * op_mul shrugs | 07:05 | |
| op_mul | I don't know how botnets are used or operate, but controlling them with the bitcoin blockchain sounds moronic | 07:05 |
| stonecoldpat | op_mul: thats not a lot indeed, it would be good to know what the upper limit of the network is for connections | 07:06 |
| op_mul | 125 per peer. you work it out. | 07:07 |
| stonecoldpat | op_mul: assuming no ones changed that limit, then that would support 800k users... | 07:07 |
| stonecoldpat | which is enough for a decent size botnet | 07:08 |
| op_mul | that's assuming only botnets are connecting. | 07:08 |
| op_mul | and that each SPV peer makes one outgoing connection. which is not true. | 07:09 |
| stonecoldpat | thats all a bot would need, but fair point about the 8 connection default, so about 100k | 07:10 |
| sipa | which is enough for _one_ decent size botnet | 07:10 |
| op_mul | again assuming no other connections in the network. | 07:10 |
| op_mul | my nodes are about half full. if it's indicative of the rest of the network, half our listening capacity is used. | 07:11 |
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| stonecoldpat | the problem that I have been thinking about for a while is if a botnet did hi-jack bitcoin, what would the network actually be able to do? if they act as normal users (perhaps SPV clients accepting all transaction traffic) then you wouldnt be able to identify them, and if they did use bloom filters, then you potentially identify them, but how would you co-ordinate their removal? | 07:13 |
| sipa | well they would need actual BTC to send around, and pay fees | 07:14 |
| stonecoldpat | and assuming they do not rely on commands being stored in the blockchain, so just transactions are sent periodically across the network with the command, then miners cant do anything | 07:14 |
| op_mul | ha, right you'd only have one directional communication | 07:14 |
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| stonecoldpat | as a botmaster, you would just stick an upload website in the transaction and tell the bots to feed you there | 07:14 |
| stonecoldpat | so i created some bots that uploaded screenshots to a server | 07:15 |
| stonecoldpat | well when i say create, i ran some spv nodes on a few computers to try it out | 07:16 |
| op_mul | this all sounds very implausible | 07:18 |
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| stonecoldpat | apologizes for spamming channel... lol, i think it is a realstic threat though, especially as the network grows | 07:22 |
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| hearn | stonecoldpat: it's the anti-DoS problem | 07:24 |
| hearn | stonecoldpat: the answer is: it's really hard and Tor had exactly this problem. there isn't anything you can do technically if the bots simulate good users well enough. for bitcoin there's a lot of stuff we can do to try and separate real users from fake ones, but ultimately the only fix would be to get LE on the case and try to get the botnet nuked | 07:24 |
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| op_mul | hearn: as history has shown, even tor based botnets get kicked. dumbass criminals. | 07:32 |
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| hearn | botnets get taken down but the operators are caught much more rarely. so not that dumb, i think | 07:33 |
| stonecoldpat | hearn: I think thats something we need to start thinking about as a community, what is it we can actually do | 07:33 |
| stonecoldpat | op_mul: and whats more interesting, you now have a botnet inwhich you can get paid bitcoins to do some naughty things, so you dont even need to buy bitcoins to fund your botnet... | 07:34 |
| stonecoldpat | coinjoin transaction, you pay me, i authorise command | 07:34 |
| op_mul | I don't think it's interesting. | 07:35 |
| op_mul | bitcoin is stupidly unprivate. anybody using it to do illegal things on any sort of meaningful scale will be caught. | 07:35 |
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| hearn | stonecoldpat: about botnets freeloading on the p2p network? or botnets in general? | 07:39 |
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| stonecoldpat | hearn: freeloading on the bitcoin network, though i don't think it could be solved in general | 07:40 |
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| Eliel_ | ... I'd think there would be a general p2p network toolkit by now to make implementing a basic one simple. | 07:54 |
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| hearn | Eliel_: there is TomP2P for doing DHTs | 08:11 |
| hearn | but DoS in a p2p system is hard. it's basically unsolved. tor is the closest. | 08:11 |
| sipa | tor is also pretty centralized :) | 08:12 |
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| gmaxwell | botnet people are just following a path of least resistance. You onlt need a control channel which is a fraction of a bit per second. It's impossible to surpress that. If you somehow get them off service X/Y/Z, they'll just become bots playing multiplayer video games and encoding their commands in patterns of plays. | 08:17 |
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| hearn | it is possible to win sometimes. botnet operators are like with any business, it's not infinitely profitable so they each have a pain threshold they won't go beyond | 08:20 |
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| gmaxwell | sure a particular botnet a particular guy, but there is always a next guy in line. | 08:20 |
| stonecoldpat | ill be presenting about this theme at the bitcoin workshop @ fc this year, so anyone who wants to talk about it while we are there let me know, it would be nice to meet some of you (please ill be a lone wolf on the beach, so company is appreciated!) | 08:27 |
| stonecoldpat | ps* not please... lol | 08:28 |
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| amiller | stonecoldpat, i'll be there! | 08:39 |
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| stonecoldpat | awesome :) | 08:53 |
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| lechuga_ | isnt utxo committment required in order to prove an output referenced in an spv proof hasn't already been re-animated and spent? | 10:42 |
| gmaxwell | No. The proof is showing the pegged sidechain has authorized a release of coins, ... it's not referring to any specific coins in bitcoin. (and if it were, it would just be 'obviously invalid' to the bitcoin side verification when the coins it referenced didn't exist) | 10:44 |
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| lechuga_ | going from sidechain -> bitcoin, i would include an spv proof that i created a specific locked output on the sidechain | 10:46 |
| lechuga_ | bitcoin can validate this proof and say 'ok i agree that you did that' | 10:47 |
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| lechuga_ | why isn't that replayable | 10:47 |
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| gmaxwell | You just mean presenting the exact same proof twice? | 10:49 |
| lechuga_ | right | 10:49 |
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| gmaxwell | just by exclusion, the sidechain (but not the locking transaction itself) authorizing which bitcoins to release. If they don't exist, they don't exist. | 10:51 |
| lechuga_ | so going from bitcoin->sidechain, why cant the proof be submitted twice? there were no pre-existing sidechain coins to unlock | 10:55 |
| lechuga_ | will the newly created sidechain coin reference that proof? | 10:57 |
| gmaxwell | By just tracking the coins created (E.g. a map of them), or by using the peg-asymetrically (e.g. where the sidechain fullnodes are bitcoin full nodes). (you seeing this andytoshi; I still contine to think the symmetric approach is actually more complex.) | 10:59 |
| lechuga_ | ok makes sense | 11:00 |
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| lechuga_ | i suspect once i see the impl im going 2 feel pretty dense | 11:01 |
| lechuga_ | :) | 11:01 |
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| gmaxwell | "Not only can Thelonious read, manage, and interact with multiple chains, the chains themselves have perhaps the most sophisticated genesis block currently deployed in a blockchain design." | 12:33 |
| sipa | we should put a fractal in some sidechain's genesis block, or at least code to generate one | 12:36 |
| sipa | many complex, wow | 12:36 |
| kanzure | maybe i should have 1 million chains, and each chain will link to the previous chain. | 12:39 |
| lechuga_ | yo dogg i heard you like DMMSes | 12:40 |
| gmaxwell | Thats not quite as gibberishy as it sounds, ... basically some {hard to tell what exactly it is} thing that is mostly talking about something that sounds like the 2112 "digital prospectus" kook proposal. | 12:40 |
| sipa | which boiled down to "let's encode the consensus rules in the chain", afaik? | 12:41 |
| kanzure | .g site:bitcointalk.org 2012 digital prospectus | 12:41 |
| yoleaux | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61575.0;wap2 | 12:41 |
| kanzure | whoops | 12:41 |
| sipa | 2112, not 2012 | 12:41 |
| lechuga_ | hmm thats kind of cool | 12:43 |
| lechuga_ | is it feasible? | 12:43 |
| gmaxwell | 2112 is a kind of kooky guy on bitcoin talk. Used to be pretty active, a lot of people have him on ignore. (not because he emits weird ideas but because he's often also pretty nasty to people) | 12:43 |
| lechuga_ | (more speaking about sipa's understanding vs what it actually attempts to describe) | 12:43 |
| gmaxwell | lechuga_: there is a cyclic dependency there. I mean, say I make a transaction saying "the rules now are all blocks must be signed by gmaxwell", and I mine it.. then I go off and produce my all gmaxwell signed chain. What should a node that witnesses this do? | 12:44 |
| gmaxwell | Or say I do this, but against a fork from block 100? | 12:44 |
| sipa | lechuga_: do you *really* want miners to determine (or at least have veto power) over rule changes? | 12:45 |
| lechuga_ | they do anyway dont they? | 12:45 |
| gmaxwell | No. | 12:45 |
| sipa | no | 12:45 |
| sipa | god, what are you doing here? | 12:45 |
| lechuga_ | they can choose not to upgrade | 12:45 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: learning | 12:46 |
| gmaxwell | lechuga_: they can, sure, but if they violate the rules the simply aren't mining anymore. | 12:46 |
| sipa | sorry, bad day; ignore me | 12:46 |
| lechuga_ | lol np, im sure i can be frustrating | 12:46 |
| gmaxwell | All the other nodes will just ignore their blocks as if they didn't exist. | 12:46 |
| sipa | lechuga_: what would happen if miners tried to increase their own subsidy? | 12:46 |
| sipa | like 70% of all miners agreed that 100 BTC per block subsidy would be great | 12:46 |
| sipa | so they all patch their software to do so | 12:46 |
| lechuga_ | ok thats really obvious fatal blow | 12:47 |
| sipa | what would happen? | 12:47 |
| sipa | lechuga_: want to try answering? | 12:48 |
| lechuga_ | i guess they could do that and it would negatively affect exchange rates and devalue every1s share | 12:49 |
| sipa | nope | 12:49 |
| sipa | exactly nothing would happen, except that we'd see 3 times slower blocks for a while | 12:49 |
| sipa | the whole network would ignore the blocks those miners produce | 12:50 |
| sipa | because every full nodes validates the rules; miners don't set them - they only try to satisfy them | 12:50 |
| tacotime | well; that's ignoring that the miners would operate their own nodes on an independent fork/network | 12:50 |
| sipa | i'm talking about bitcoin | 12:51 |
| lechuga_ | then they could arbitrarily attack the "real" network couldnt they? and incentivize people to join their alternate network | 12:51 |
| lechuga_ | since 70% of the hashing power moved to alternate chain | 12:51 |
| tacotime | well, yeah, but the bitcoin network is really whatever the major exchanges nodes are operating on. | 12:51 |
| tacotime | and major mining pools/miners. | 12:51 |
| sipa | lechuga_: why would anyone would those miners even care about that other network? | 12:51 |
| sipa | lechuga_: it's about economic power; if bitpay and coinbase and who knows who would decide that they'd also switch... sure | 12:52 |
| sipa | but miners are not actually influencing the economy | 12:52 |
| tacotime | we've never seen a coordinated fork using a majority hashrate of miners, so i'm not sure what would happen but i'd guess the outcome would just be 100% political. | 12:53 |
| sipa | lechuga_: and they *already* can arbitrarily attack the real network | 12:53 |
| sipa | the ability to do so is purely hash rate percentage | 12:53 |
| sipa | the difficulty is (almost) entirely irrelevant for it | 12:54 |
| tacotime | i think he means it increases the triviality of the attack if you let the forked network's hash rate fall; although they're already over 50%.. | 12:54 |
| sipa | the hash rate is not relevant (unless it drops very very dramatically, like 1-2 orders of magnitude) | 12:55 |
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| sipa | their (potential) share of the hash rate matters | 12:55 |
| lechuga_ | isnt the network fundamentally less secure if there is this lingering potential hashing power that exists but not being used to secure it | 12:56 |
| lechuga_ | and therefor less economically viable | 12:56 |
| sipa | it affects our ability to judge it | 12:57 |
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| sipa | if every miner has 50% extra hashpower that they're not using, but could turn on in the case against (or in favor of) an attack, we don't know the actual % that each party has | 12:58 |
| sipa | but instantaneously, the only thing that matters is % actually used hashpower | 12:58 |
| gmaxwell | lechuga_: I've never found that argument especially compelling. The amount of hashing power isn't fixed, it can increase and decrease at any time. (e.g. people can produce more miners, they can throw them into the sun) If every bit of human economic capacity isn't being used as mining already, then there is always some more that could be diverted to mining. A more interesting to think about is | 13:00 |
| gmaxwell | the incentives for parties who mine. E.g. are they better off mining honestly or not mining at all, than they are attacking? | 13:00 |
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| lechuga_ | hmm it can't increase arbitrarily fast | 13:02 |
| lechuga_ | practically | 13:02 |
| sipa | neither is it 'practical' that a miner would decide to suggest to unilaterally change the consensus rules, and expect to be followed | 13:03 |
| gmaxwell | lechuga_: sure it can, 24 hour world fab capacity, if all running on creating bitcoin chips could replace the hashrate several times in a day, right now. ... there is some latency involved, sure. Though powered off miners also often have delays too. | 13:04 |
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| lechuga_ | what if the change were to make the subsidy 25.2 btc. all miners decided to follow that rule. maybe it would make sense to follow them since for right now they have the required power to secure their network? (dont know just thinking aloud) | 13:05 |
| lechuga_ | and it's at a smaller cost to every1 else | 13:05 |
| gwillen | lechuga_: the network would fork into "the miners who went along with the change" and "everyone else, who now sees those miners' blocks as invalid and won't accept them" | 13:06 |
| gwillen | if any miners stayed behind, things would continue but very slowly until the next retarget; if no miners stayed behind then things would stop until someone mined on the old chain again (which someone would, because free bitcoins) | 13:07 |
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| gmaxwell | lechuga_: that result would be that it would suddenly be a lot more attractive for me to turn on and start mining the honest network. Hurray! more blocks for MEEE. | 13:07 |
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| dgenr8 | sipa: because every full nodes validates the rules, AND the nodes are connected in a cohesive p2p network. let it never be suggested that the p2p network is disposable, not integral, etc. | 18:38 |
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| gmaxwell | dgenr8: "the p2p network" is complete disposable and already unnecessary (there are nodes connected in ways other than the p2p network) | 19:08 |
| gmaxwell | there are at least three other actively used alternative transports that I'm currently aware of, and we'll see more in the future. | 19:09 |
| gmaxwell | (relay network, bitcoin-over-freenet, and the DVB radio blockchain stuff) | 19:09 |
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| dgenr8 | the transport is not what's important, the way nodes find each other and relay inventory is | 19:17 |
| gmaxwell | No thats not important either. | 19:17 |
| phantomcircuit | dgenr8, censorship needs to be difficult, but that doesn't require a p2p network really | 19:17 |
| phantomcircuit | it's just a relatively easy thing to build with bitcoin | 19:18 |
| gmaxwell | It's important that you learn the blockchain. (that you're not partitioned from the honest users) but anything that accomplishes that is acceptable. | 19:18 |
| gmaxwell | E.g. having transport over facebook would be fine. | 19:18 |
| gmaxwell | (p2p of bitcoin's type is actually a very weak tool, easily attacked.. but fortunately the blockchain is strong enough that that weakness hardly matters. A friends network like cjdns links would be better, except the setup costs are unacceptable) | 19:19 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, i wonder if facebook would let me upload pictures with blockchain data stuffed into EXIF fields | 19:19 |
| mappum | phantomcircuit: or you can just steganographically put it in the image in a way that survives facebook's JPG compression | 19:20 |
| dgenr8 | if bitcoin were just the blockchain, it would not survive the 70% miner rule change scenario discussed above | 19:21 |
| dgenr8 | this is going to end up with the realization everyone was saying the same thing, sorry | 19:23 |
| phantomcircuit | mappum, that might be hilarious | 19:24 |
| phantomcircuit | i bet i could do giant qr codes | 19:24 |
| phantomcircuit | lol im going to try that | 19:24 |
| mappum | phantomcircuit: My photo albums: Summer Vacation 2012, Hawaii Trip 2013, Bitcoin Blockchain | 19:25 |
| dgenr8 | gmaxwell you say some crazy things in your quest to discredit my every utterance ;) | 19:26 |
| phantomcircuit | are they crazy if they're true? | 19:26 |
| phantomcircuit | im thinking no | 19:26 |
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| gmaxwell | genr8: if it were "just" the blockchain it wouldn't be a working system at all, there must be some method to communicate somehow. | 19:55 |
| gmaxwell | dgenr8: We make two assumptions up front normally for bitcoin, that the majority of the hashpower is honest and that the honest participants | 19:55 |
| gmaxwell | are not partitioned. The current p2p network is not very partitioning resistant, but it doesn't really need to be because partitioning alone | 19:55 |
| gmaxwell | is mostly just a dos attack. | 19:55 |
| gmaxwell | dgenr8: Under the example you're posing there (majority of miners want more subsidy) the current p2p network would not be ideal because it is | 19:55 |
| gmaxwell | relatively cheap to partition. Other transport mechnisms may be better in a case where partitioning would be more valuable. | 19:55 |
| gmaxwell | Certantly in no case is the current p2p specifically essential to the system. | 19:55 |
| gmaxwell | dgenr8: As for "quest to discredit" insult, keep in mind that you're the one that decided to make a completely out of left field argument here; I didn't seek out anything. And your argument is just attempting to continue a position you've advanced before that I think is pretty easily demonstrated to be incorrect. | 19:57 |
| gmaxwell | (by the fact that people aready use the full bitcoin system without using the p2p network) | 19:57 |
| gmaxwell | (e.g. CJDNS and freenet non-opennet are example networks where partitioning a honest subgraph should be substantially more difficult; hub/spoke topologies are generally strongly partitioning resistant, though have other limitations) | 20:00 |
| gmaxwell | Fortunate Bitcoin doesn't have just one transport so it can benefits from the benefits of multiple without suffering the all the costs of any single one. | 20:01 |
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| op_mul | phantomcircuit: I have done that. though for facebook the compression makes it almost useless. try somewhere like imgur or flickr which support PNGs. you can even leverage the pretty good compression in a PNG to get some savings over the original binary. | 20:15 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: there's other methods, too. https://soundcloud.com/blockchain/00000000000000000f54a1fe88f6a4a2bf98952e60b57376eb15d80e9c753c04 | 20:16 |
| user7779_ | op_mul: can you explain what that is exactly | 20:21 |
| user7779_ | or how the block info is being rendered via sound? | 20:21 |
| op_mul | http://www.whence.com/minimodem/ | 20:22 |
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| user7779_ | awesome, thanks | 20:22 |
| op_mul | there's no reason you couldn't do bitcoin-over-shopping-center-PA if you felt so inclined. though you might drive people inside a little insane. | 20:23 |
| user7779_ | hahah, yes probably. | 20:24 |
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| rusty | maaku: do you have an implementation or more details on your maarkle tree structure for prev blocks? | 20:40 |
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| op_mul | rusty: nice portmanteau. | 20:43 |
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| rusty | op_mul: thanks | 20:45 |
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| maaku | merkle tree structure? sure see this (unfinished) draft bip: https://gist.github.com/maaku/2aed2cb628024800044d | 21:40 |
| maaku | regarding the block header back links, just what was posted here to -wizards and the mailing list | 21:40 |
| maaku | but I intend to use the same structure in that bip | 21:40 |
| maaku | the keys are just meaningless | 21:40 |
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