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| wumpus | moxie, moxie, moxie, why you don't have a multiply instruction with 64-bit result, sec256k1 is horribly inefficient with all the calls to __muldi3 | 03:35 |
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| sipa | wumpus: ow, yweah, expected... | 03:45 |
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| wumpus | also gcc generates code with conditional jumps in it for e.g. secp256k1_fe_mul_inner, for some reason, even though it should have no control flow. But gcc generating bad code for an experimental arch would be excusable, the lack of that instruction is worse :/ | 03:49 |
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| nsh | wumpus, what code are you referring to? | 03:52 |
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| wumpus | field_20x13_impl.h ;-) | 03:53 |
| nsh | ty | 03:53 |
| wumpus | no just kidding, I'm referring to the code that moxie-moxiebox-gcc makes of secp256k1 | 03:53 |
| nsh | ah | 03:53 |
| nsh | can conditional jumps in ECC multiplication lead to side channel weaknesses? | 03:54 |
| nsh | (timing attacks) | 03:55 |
| wumpus | yes, hence all the work put into making operations constant time | 03:55 |
| * nsh nods | 03:55 | |
| nsh | presumably moxie processor is still up for revision | 03:56 |
| nsh | but dunno how you'd do that. split the result over two registers? | 03:56 |
| sipa | that's what happens on x86 | 03:57 |
| nsh | k | 03:57 |
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| wumpus | maybe Anthony would be open to the suggestion, on the other hand by now there are even hardware implementations, so the ship may have sailed. It is meant as a minimal architecture and multiply is expensive to implement. | 03:58 |
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| * nsh nods | 03:59 | |
| maaku | never heard of a processor that didn't offer a double-width result multiply | 04:00 |
| maaku | does it have a divmod? | 04:00 |
| wumpus | no, just separate div and mod IIRC | 04:00 |
| maaku | yuck | 04:01 |
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| wumpus | powerpc has no double-width result multiply either, but at least separate mullw and mulhwu instructions | 04:12 |
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| wumpus | mips does have double-width result for multiplication, its multiply result goes into special low/hi registers, loaded by mflo/mfhi | 04:23 |
| wumpus | sparc on the other hand didn't use to have a multiply instruction at all, but it specific lower-level instructions to implement multiply | 04:25 |
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| wumpus | the end result would be 64 bit, though | 04:28 |
| wumpus | so yes, moxie is the odd duck out here | 04:28 |
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| nsh | any recommended books on distributed systems? | 05:22 |
| nsh | (with strong theory, preferably) | 05:22 |
| * wumpus ponders a woxie architecture with secp256k1_ecdsa_verify instruction | 05:25 | |
| nsh | "woxie"++ | 05:30 |
| nsh | how are moxie instructions implemented/described? | 05:31 |
| nsh | in some formal gate logic model or something higher? | 05:31 |
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| nsh | or is this the closest to a formal definition? https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/gcc/+/toolchain-minor-verified/gcc/config/moxie/moxie.c | 05:38 |
| nsh | (nope) | 05:38 |
| sipa | wumpus: ha | 05:39 |
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| Eliel | nsh: just out of interest, have you ever looked at reduceron? | 05:44 |
| nsh | nope | 05:44 |
| * nsh checks out | 05:44 | |
| nsh | oh, haskell on FPGA | 05:45 |
| Eliel | basically, yes. Although, I suspect there are other languages it'd be a good fit for too. | 05:45 |
| * nsh nods | 05:46 | |
| nsh | you'd think google would have done a bit of work on von Neumann widening architectures for all their mapreduce stuff | 05:46 |
| sipa | wumpus: just ec mult instructions would probably be more flexible | 05:46 |
| wumpus | nsh: there are some FPGA implementations, https://github.com/atgreen/moxie-cores | 05:47 |
| nsh | ty | 05:47 |
| wumpus | nsh: I'm sure they have, all of the large SV companies are busy with Intel and custom silicon, but what they're doing is probably a secret | 05:47 |
| * nsh nods | 05:48 | |
| wumpus | sipa: that sounds like a good idea, a ec coprocessor | 05:48 |
| Eliel | ah, looks like the development is ongoing :) https://github.com/tommythorn/Reduceron | 05:49 |
| wumpus | whoa! Anthony replied, the lack of double-width multiplication result is an oversight and he's considering ways to add it to future a future revision | 05:50 |
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| nsh | oh, cool | 05:53 |
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| kanzure | https://github.com/Tribler/dispersy "The elastic database system. A database designed for P2P-like scenarios, where potentially millions of computers send database updates around." | 06:32 |
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| nsh | kanzure, any (noncode) description? | 06:36 |
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| kanzure | no | 06:37 |
| kanzure | i am still reading code | 06:37 |
| nsh | some jibberjabber here: https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki | 06:38 |
| kanzure | they do not like docstrings | 06:38 |
| * nsh smiles | 06:38 | |
| kanzure | ah they have some docstrings. just not everywhere. hrm. | 06:39 |
| kanzure | "and reputation-management. All these features are implemented in a completely distributed manner, not relying on any centralized component..." hm.. wasn't reputation one of those things that doesn't work without centralization. | 06:40 |
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| kanzure | here are some papers they claim describes their reputation mechanism: | 06:41 |
| kanzure | http://www.asci.tudelft.nl/media/proceedings_asci_conference_2010/asci2010_submission_14.pdf | 06:41 |
| kanzure | http://www.pds.twi.tudelft.nl/~pouwelse/A_network_science_perspective_of_a_distributed_reputation_mechanism.pdf | 06:41 |
| kanzure | er.... "Finally, a non-random structure means that the network is vulnerable to targeted strategic attacks on highly connected nodes. If an attacker provides the highly connected nodes with a contaminated content, then the content is spread very fast in the network. This is a concern that should be taken into account in future designs." | 06:42 |
| moa | kanzure: distributed reputation is interesting proposition ... socially we already recognise such a concept, aka popularity, digitally it comes back to 'who' is voting | 06:44 |
| nsh | (a well-resourced attacker can always use partitioning to create heavy hub nodes, which makes this worse) | 06:44 |
| kanzure | popularity is actually a corruption of that | 06:44 |
| moa | well popularity can be corrupted by centralised manipulation, misinformation, etc too ... | 06:45 |
| moa | re-centralised | 06:45 |
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| moa | sometimes the majority can be dishonest, misinformed, have incentive structure perverted, etc | 06:48 |
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| * Eliel wonders if it'd work that when there are two or more transactions spending the same input(s), The transactions are mined in a special doublespend transaction that takes only the inputs that have been double spent and to spend that transaction, you need to be able to satisfy every txout script in all txouts that either transaction had. | 10:26 | |
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| Luke-Jr | Eliel: interesting | 10:28 |
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| Eliel | ah no, you can defeat that by deliberately making an infinitesimal input to doublespend. You'd need to include all inputs. | 10:32 |
| Eliel | and that sounds risky. | 10:32 |
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| Luke-Jr | ? | 10:40 |
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| Luke-Jr | Eliel: I don't see the risk | 10:42 |
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| Eliel | well, consider for example coinjoin transaction. | 10:43 |
| Eliel | one participant wants to DoS the coinjoin process and does a double spend the moment it's being done. | 10:44 |
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| Eliel | everyone suddenly needs to jump through hoops to get their coins and it won't work if the cause of the problem won't cooperate | 10:45 |
| Luke-Jr | ah, right :/ | 10:45 |
| dgenr8 | Eliel: but either of the original txes is still valid by itself | 10:46 |
| Eliel | umm, no, each of them has at least one of their inputs already spent. | 10:47 |
| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: no, Eliel was suggesting a rule that if you can prove TxA and TxB are double spends, you can claim all of their inputs in a new UTXO which can only be spent by a transaction producing all the outputs of TxA and TxB | 10:47 |
| Luke-Jr | so the original UTXOs would be destroyed, and the new UTXO would have a covenant | 10:48 |
| Luke-Jr | Eliel: this could also screw up incentives, since now you can combine UTXOs without a fee potentially XD | 10:49 |
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| dgenr8 | ...can only be spend by satisfying all the outputs of TxA and TxB. As Eliel said, all the inputs would need to be included. | 10:53 |
| dgenr8 | this new thing itself would be in a race against the original spends | 10:54 |
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| Eliel | dgenr8: in a way, yes. However, any node with either of the original spends would move to mining this when they see the other spend. So it would have quite the advantage. | 11:08 |
| Eliel | it'd drastically reduce the chance that a double spend succeeds. | 11:08 |
| Eliel | The only point would be to make it unprofitable to even attempt to double spend. | 11:10 |
| dgenr8 | if miners behaved that way, double-spends after a few seconds would not succeed today | 11:10 |
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| Luke-Jr | Eliel: it doesn't make it unprofitable, though | 11:12 |
| Luke-Jr | Eliel: worst case you pay who you paid. which was always a probability | 11:12 |
| Eliel | Luke-Jr: well, the logical course of action for any merchant in this situation is to take the loss unless the double spender agrees to pay them a little extra for the trouble. | 11:15 |
| Luke-Jr | Eliel: ? | 11:15 |
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| Eliel | a merchant should be financially able to take a loss of a single order but someone who needs to double spend is most likely not too rich. | 11:16 |
| Eliel | end result -> double spends not profitable -> very few double spends. | 11:17 |
| Luke-Jr | Eliel: petertodd's scortched earth thing does that too | 11:17 |
| petertodd | Luke-Jr: lol, I was just about to say... | 11:17 |
| Eliel | I might have missed that one :) | 11:17 |
| petertodd | Luke-Jr: though credit goes to jdillon, not me | 11:17 |
| Luke-Jr | Eliel: use CPFP to take your own transaction and respend 100% of it as fees | 11:18 |
| Luke-Jr | Eliel: miners then prefer your version with the huge fee they can claim | 11:18 |
| petertodd | or this version without CPFP: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg05211.html | 11:18 |
| dgenr8 | even if the proof tx resulted in everything being burned, payment is only one side of the tx. double-spender's goal is to get something valuable in the real world | 11:18 |
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| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: double-spender's goal is to get something valuable in the real world *at no cost* | 11:19 |
| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: in this case, he has to pay the full price | 11:20 |
| Luke-Jr | no different than if he had made the purchase legitimately | 11:20 |
| dgenr8 | yeah, that's right | 11:20 |
| petertodd | Luke-Jr: and with the k-overpaying version, you can make them pay more than full price if they double-spend: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg05211.html | 11:20 |
| Eliel | well, in a sane court, the attempt to double spend should be regarded as intent to defraud. Having to do more attempts to get any benefit will reduce the total profit a single scammer can make before getting caught | 11:20 |
| dgenr8 | petertodd: your prediction about nlocktime use shaking out the bugs system-wide seems to have been accurate | 11:22 |
| petertodd | dgenr8: sigh, unfortunately... | 11:23 |
| Luke-Jr | I was surprised by that. I'm pretty sure I've purchased via Coinbase before | 11:23 |
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| Luke-Jr | (and I've been using petertodd's patch there for years) | 11:23 |
| petertodd | Luke-Jr: they seem to have re-broke; also if the tx is lucky enough to get mined you don't see the problem | 11:23 |
| Luke-Jr | buuuuut… I may have poked Coinbase staff to get it through | 11:23 |
| Luke-Jr | I forget | 11:23 |
| petertodd | ahh, well there you go | 11:24 |
| gmaxwell | Luke-Jr: the earlier version of the page was inoperable. | 11:24 |
| Luke-Jr | gmaxwell: ? | 11:24 |
| gmaxwell | Luke-Jr: there was an earlier version of the patch for a while that didn't set the seq number. | 11:24 |
| Luke-Jr | oh, lol | 11:24 |
| petertodd | seems coblee is of the opinion that reimplementing Bitcoin Core in production is a good idea too :( | 11:25 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: hahaha, oh I'd forgotten I'd fucked up that, stupid | 11:26 |
| op_mul | petertodd: do we have a bitcoin company that doesn't test in production? | 11:27 |
| petertodd | op_mul: heh, quoting coblee: "I wasn't at Coinbase when the decision was made to implement Bitcoin Ruby, so I can't comment on why we did that. This whole Bitcoin thing is an experimentation." | 11:28 |
| op_mul | petertodd: seems what they really wanted is a bitcoin node that is powered by burning VC money. | 11:29 |
| op_mul | not confirming fast enough! shovel in more hundreds! | 11:30 |
| petertodd | op_mul: ...and they weren't willing to use the tried and true method of a steam engine | 11:30 |
| gmaxwell | "N reasons why the spooks love Tribler" https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-dev/2014-December/007999.html fun examples of fractally broken cryptography outside of bitcoin. | 11:31 |
| petertodd | you know, when you consider the probabilities, it takes either good luck or effort to write crypto that broken | 11:32 |
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| petertodd | the obvious thing these days is to use one of the easy libraries with sane defaults... | 11:32 |
| op_mul | ECB mode ;-; | 11:33 |
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| petertodd | you literally can figure out that's a bad idea by skimming the wikipedia page... | 11:34 |
| petertodd | there's like, pretty picturs and everything :/ | 11:34 |
| op_mul | they've hit on all the big ones | 11:35 |
| op_mul | wrong AES mode, bad random, static IV | 11:35 |
| petertodd | nah, they did miss one: they didn't call it TxOut | 11:35 |
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| petertodd | (ok, so that joke'd be funnier if they were a bitcoin wallet...) | 11:36 |
| op_mul | I do like that they called it StrongRandom, very similar to SecureRandom that has plagued Bitcoin. | 11:37 |
| Eliel | petertodd: by the way, you can always require a certain minimum of total inputs if you want to accomplish the total k effect in what I proposed. It also doesn't suffer from the problem that the payee could decide to burn your coins even without a double spend. | 11:37 |
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| petertodd | Eliel: well, once you start assuming scripting language changes the sky's the limit... | 11:38 |
| Eliel | well, true, this is a hard fork change. | 11:40 |
| petertodd | Eliel: no, soft-fork change, it's just something you'd have to opt-into at the wallet level, IMO a much better idea than changing everything | 11:40 |
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| op_mul | might as well add in OP_CORN (this node dispenses hot melted butter) | 11:41 |
| petertodd | op_mul: with respect to the consensus provability of OP_CORN, we already have that, it's called OP_NOP1, 2, 3, ... | 11:41 |
| gmaxwell | Eliel: double spending is not always intent to defraud. For example, you might have just been a doofus with multiple copies of the same wallet. | 11:43 |
| op_mul | petertodd: maybe we need to find a way to have proof of lipid. I quite like the mental image of system admins rushing to stem the flood of butter pouring out of their server racks every time somebody uses it in a transaction. | 11:43 |
| Eliel | gmaxwell: yes, that defense works... as long as you don't repeat it. | 11:43 |
| dgenr8 | in these proof txes, outputs would appear to sum to greater than inputs, even aside from fees. if they are spendable that has a downstream impact | 11:43 |
| op_mul | petertodd: you can go further too, OP_TIMISM might be fun. | 11:45 |
| petertodd | op_mul: OP_TIMISM? | 11:45 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: perfect example: http://respends.thinlink.com/ <- most of the double spends have zero or trivial fee increases | 11:46 |
| op_mul | petertodd: you'll get it eventually. | 11:47 |
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| dgenr8 | op_mul: maybe he finds it opprobrious | 11:52 |
| op_mul | dgenr8: when really it's the OP_POSITE | 11:53 |
| petertodd | ...that took me way too long... | 11:57 |
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| btcdrak | stahp! with the opcode joke!! >.< | 11:58 |
| petertodd | OP_ACITY, OP_AL, OP_AQUE, OP_CODE, OP_EN, OP_ENNESS, OP_ERAND, OP_ERATE... | 11:59 |
| petertodd | ...OP_US | 11:59 |
| op_mul | petertodd: now you get it! | 12:00 |
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| btcdrak | definitely too much OP_IATES | 12:02 |
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| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8780313 | 12:27 |
| yoleaux | Tribler "decentralized BitTorrent" software's crypto is completely broken | Hacker News | 12:27 |
| kanzure | ah... this explains their weirdo handwaving about security in their "consensus" protocol. | 12:27 |
| petertodd | the great thing about the Tor consensus protocol is you can meet it at conferences in person | 12:28 |
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| kanzure | ""Take that book Applied Cryptography that's on your bookshelf and burn it. Do that as a commitment to really learning crypto. But absolutely don't read it. If you don't read it, you have nothing to unlearn, so you're much better off."" | 12:29 |
| kanzure | petertodd: i'm not familiar with what tor consensus is | 12:29 |
| petertodd | kanzure: it's a majority of ~10 or something trusted people basically | 12:29 |
| kanzure | what is there to agree about? | 12:29 |
| faraka | how does ripple consensus work? | 12:30 |
| kanzure | it doesn't | 12:30 |
| petertodd | kanzure: what are and are not valid Tor routers that you should use | 12:30 |
| kanzure | petertodd: thanks | 12:30 |
| faraka | coultn't ripple have implemented proof of stake as a way to mint tokens? | 12:30 |
| petertodd | kanzure: Tor is *not* a decentralized system, it's a highly centralized distributed system carefully designed to minimize legal and operational risks and ensure no one person can compromise you | 12:31 |
| kanzure | petertodd: i have been reading tor source code lately, wanting something like python-bitcoinlib for tor, or some other way to split out non-tor-specific things, etc. | 12:31 |
| kanzure | (just in the interest of curiosity, primarily) | 12:31 |
| petertodd | kanzure: yeah, IIRC there is a python Tor library | 12:32 |
| petertodd | isis: ^ | 12:32 |
| kanzure | the tor developers mentioned a disinterest in every having anything approximating a shared library or any library with an api | 12:32 |
| petertodd | yeah, I dunno the politics behind that (or even if that's true) | 12:32 |
| kanzure | hmm i don't have the link, so let's assume it's not true for the moment | 12:32 |
| petertodd | there is a java library among other things | 12:32 |
| kanzure | ah maybe https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/1967#comment:2 but i am still reading | 12:33 |
| petertodd | haha, I've heard stories about "bee" | 12:33 |
| kanzure | "You're not the first and you won't be the last to suggest it - You're simply the most annoying" | 12:33 |
| petertodd | or I should say "bee!!!!" | 12:33 |
| petertodd | kanzure: the explanation of "encourage people to use the socks mechanism" doesn't surprise me much | 12:35 |
| kanzure | faraka: ripple could have just avoided implementing a consensus protocol like that and used a signing system to publish their ledger | 12:36 |
| faraka | would a signing system be equally fast? | 12:36 |
| faraka | do you mean multisignatures? | 12:36 |
| petertodd | kanzure: I thought ripple basically *was* a signing system, but with a bunch of hand-waving and misdirection? | 12:37 |
| kanzure | petertodd: yes, but faraka doesn't know that | 12:37 |
| kanzure | petertodd: apparently faraka also doesn't know what a centralized solution looks like | 12:37 |
| faraka | you are right kanzure | 12:37 |
| kanzure | petertodd: so here's one guess... maybe people just genuinely aren't aware of the possibility of centralized implementations, and so they fixate on the marketing they have been exposed to regarding decentralized consensus. maybe we just need to make centralized concepts more obvious? | 12:38 |
| kanzure | (insert various explanations here like "well it's just a blackbox to most users") | 12:38 |
| petertodd | kanzure: shitty marketting - e.g. "federated" sidechains :) | 12:38 |
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| petertodd | kanzure: would certainly help to have some best-of-breed implementation of that stuff... I'm working on one myself | 12:39 |
| kanzure | someone is going to crack this problem and then suddenly people are going to be really excited about central limit order books at paypal or something :) | 12:39 |
| kanzure | just because they didn't know about it previously | 12:39 |
| gmaxwell | petertodd: well, I thought it was just a lack of awareness. But in talking to more people, at least the people building stuff they certantly see what they're doing as a (perhaps cargo-cult-grade) regulatory dodge. Makes convincing them to be frank much harder. | 12:40 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: of course, can you blame them? ethereum likes to call ether "paying for computer services"... | 12:41 |
| gmaxwell | Unfortunately many of the same people have also been having private mettings with regulator people, and so they have all this 'secret' knoweldge, and so anything anyone else says is worthless. | 12:41 |
| adam3us | petertodd: fuel or gas or something? etherfuel! | 12:42 |
| gmaxwell | So you can't even have a conversation to feel out the boundaries and determine if there is a more frank presentation that still ticks the boxes. | 12:42 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: which has me in a funny position, having *also* talked to those regulators/bankers, and not giving a damn how I describe it | 12:42 |
| kanzure | hmm, how much do you think it's them attempting a regulatory dodge versus people (especially users) just being genuinely unaware of centralized ledgers being possible? | 12:43 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: I think the users don't know its possible. Or in particular don't know that middleground security is possible. | 12:43 |
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| petertodd | kanzure: you realise, even *within banking* there's a certain amount of desire to deny that secure centralized ledgers are possible | 12:43 |
| kanzure | is it wrong of me to suggest people should be going for that middleground when they have a broken consensus attempt | 12:44 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. middleground = more secure than TRUST MAGICAL TUX TO BEHAVE PERFECTLY CORRECT AND HONESTLY WITH NO ABILITY TO REVIEW | 12:44 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: so, what's the extreme of that position? | 12:44 |
| kanzure | sure i certainly realize there are incentives to avoid centralized ledgers | 12:44 |
| petertodd | kanzure: see, I'm saying that there are incentives to make centralized ledgers *insecure* even within conventional finance | 12:45 |
| kanzure | users don't know that either way | 12:45 |
| gmaxwell | yea conventional finance demands capabilities which are basically incompatible with security. The whole regulatory and security framework of conventional finance basically demands unbounded reversability. | 12:46 |
| petertodd | yeah, and the smartest regulators get that security lets you bypass the need for identity | 12:46 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: also, note that "unbounded reversability" is also coupled with a desire to make it possible for that reversibility to be *secret* | 12:46 |
| gmaxwell | It doesn't help that while it's very very clear that middleground security is technically possible but the legal enviroment around it is less clear than the technology. Of course, there are plenty of parties who are happy to make fully centeralized non-secure systems, and ignore or manage the legal risks, but thats where they're focusing their spend: on the politics, and not on making the tech f | 12:47 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: if it was just unbounded reversability that could be accomodated | 12:47 |
| gmaxwell | undimentally more sound. | 12:47 |
| kanzure | wouldn't you just publish blocks from your central ledger and therefore make reversals more obvious? | 12:47 |
| petertodd | kanzure: that's the thing: banking ledgers are nearly always 100% not secured by any form of cryptography at all | 12:48 |
| moa | but laws and guns | 12:48 |
| petertodd | kanzure: I mean, hell, I was being told about a financial institution maintaining hundreds of millions of dollars worth of accounts literally on an excel spreadsheet - that was the master record | 12:48 |
| kanzure | well, i certainly don't mean to say that existing bank ledgers should just be dumped on the interwebs | 12:48 |
| kanzure | ther'es probably lots of "dirty laundry" on those ledgers (just from stupid implementation quirks) | 12:48 |
| kanzure | i would count a spreadsheet as an "implementation quirk" hehe | 12:49 |
| nsh | remember that stupid implementation quirk in 2008... good times.... | 12:49 |
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| kanzure | yes nsh discovere that the federal reserve kept its ledger in drupal | 12:49 |
| kanzure | nsh++ | 12:49 |
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| petertodd | kanzure: pen and paper would seriously make me feel better | 12:50 |
| nsh | (my semiserious point is that if you try to apply any infrastructure, no matter how advised, that makes it more difficult to magic wealth out of the system, you'd going to run into resistance) | 12:50 |
| nsh | *how well-advised | 12:50 |
| nsh | *you're | 12:50 |
| nsh | (and magicking wealth here is commensurate with distributing risk for the purposes of maximising leverage) | 12:51 |
| petertodd | nsh: it's not that level of conspiracy stuff - you literally have to be able to accomodate courts ordering you to remove things off your ledgers in secret, among many other crazy requirements | 12:51 |
| nsh | heh | 12:51 |
| nsh | good point | 12:51 |
| kanzure | seems to me like users that recognize that (which, by the way, i doubt they do), should be banding together around "allowing good implementations of centralized ledgers to exist" or "making lots of good centralized ledgers with fallbacks" instead of "trying to corrupt bitcoin with broken consensus implementations" | 12:51 |
| petertodd | kanzure: fact is, this stuff works well enough 99% of the time... | 12:51 |
| kanzure | so, here's a thought | 12:52 |
| kanzure | okay so they are using it as a regulatory dodge, fine | 12:52 |
| kanzure | let's say there's even a demand for that | 12:52 |
| moa | nsh it was actually aug 07 2007 that the credit markets initially seized up ... it took a year of denial that the ledgers had stopped function before it made it into mainstream | 12:52 |
| kanzure | if their protocols are bsaically just centralized anyway and broken and such, | 12:52 |
| kanzure | why not just make random crappy code generators that don't involve "consensus theories" | 12:52 |
| kanzure | and then they can make up whatever broken web of lies they please? | 12:53 |
| nsh | moa++ | 12:53 |
| petertodd | ++moa | 12:53 |
| petertodd | kanzure: heh, you mean excel spreadsheets? | 12:53 |
| kanzure | er, ledgers can continue to function even during times of market downturns, especially when your assets stop paying interest | 12:53 |
| kanzure | petertodd: hehe sure | 12:53 |
| kanzure | petertodd: "decentralized proof of stake... in a spreadsheet" | 12:54 |
| moa | kind of a 'fork' happened in their protocol, once branch was using mark-to-market the other mark-to-model | 12:54 |
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| * dgenr8 notes that bitcoin pays more interest than the swiss franc at -.25% | 12:56 | |
| kanzure | petertodd: the point being (of that idea) to just redirect all of that regulatory-dodging away from producing things marketed that end up wasting your time (claims about security, consensus, etc.) | 12:56 |
| gmaxwell | petertodd: it's a bit circular there, in that courts are going to demand you do whatever you can do. It doesn't follow that if you couldn't courts would still demand it, and we have a rich tradition of taking actions specifically to tie our hands for integrity reasons. (E.g it's a reason companies have data retention policies that make them not retain data they're not required to retain past so | 12:57 |
| gmaxwell | me threshold... limits the costs created by discovery) | 12:57 |
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| siraj | i like the idea of stellar but not the implementation - has anyone envisioned a more trustless version of stellar? | 13:22 |
| adam3us | siraj: yeah its called bitcoin | 13:23 |
| adam3us | siraj: maybe a better question what is it you like about it better than bitcoin? | 13:24 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: well, the impression I get talking to these people is that it's not at all clear courts won't demand the impossible with regard to finance | 13:24 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: which basically means "it's not impossible to change your systems" | 13:25 |
| adam3us | petertodd: maybe you heard there is or was a law somewhere that said pi = 3 | 13:25 |
| petertodd | adam3us: this is worse than that, because going from a secure ledger to an insecure one isn't exactly unthinkable | 13:26 |
| siraj | adam3us: I'm working on an escrow service and want as many customers as possible. As such, I want to accept as many different currencies as possible. I want to have one balance that all currencies can be sent to. Stellar appeals to my need by promising that. Without it, I'd have to have multiple balances. | 13:26 |
| kanzure | you are only accepting the stellar currency, in that context | 13:27 |
| petertodd | siraj: and since you want to accept multiple currencies, you're going to involve third party trust anyway so... ever thought of using paypal? | 13:28 |
| adam3us | siraj: maybe people dont want to be exposed to stellar exchange risk | 13:28 |
| kanzure | anyway, this seems off-topic, you should consider asking #bitcoin | 13:29 |
| siraj | kanzure: the stellar currency and the accompanying 'gateway' system that acts as a decentralized exchange between all currencies. Bitcoin needs a system of decentralized exchange. | 13:29 |
| kanzure | that's not decentralized. they just call it decentralized. | 13:29 |
| siraj | kanzure: true | 13:30 |
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| beamlaser | what's the word on factom? | 15:59 |
| petertodd | beamlaser: I've got a half-finished writeup on it | 16:00 |
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| petertodd | beamlaser: tl;dr: is it's a centralized system, in that the centralization point can at best DoS you; at worst put you in a position where you're unable to prove you're honest | 16:01 |
| petertodd | beamlaser: seems to me to be an attempt to shoehorn a "appcoin" into something that'd work better without one | 16:01 |
| beamlaser | i thought it was decentralized using a dht and a quasi blockchain | 16:02 |
| petertodd | yeah, but who signs that blockchain? | 16:02 |
| petertodd | at best that'll be a proof-of-stake system, which is a centralization point where none is needed | 16:02 |
| beamlaser | you are right, is there a better way to implement it? | 16:03 |
| petertodd | there's other issues, like how it appears to be using "linear" blocks when it should be using merkelized binary prefix trees to commit to facts | 16:03 |
| petertodd | beamlaser: yeah, basically let people run their own factom chains, controlled by them, and directly publish the hashes of those chains in the blockchain - no third parties requried | 16:03 |
| petertodd | if you need scalability, pick a third party and/or get together with other people who need factom that you trust and work together to build that chain | 16:04 |
| petertodd | any one person in the "subchain" can DoS attack the whole thing, but at least you get to pick who you trust | 16:04 |
| wallet42 | hi what is the earliest estimate OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY could be live? | 16:05 |
| petertodd | wallet42: yesterday on viacoin testnet, lol. few weeks for viacoin maybe? absolute minimum of months for bitcoin? | 16:05 |
| beamlaser | interesting i might pick it up then peter todd. | 16:05 |
| petertodd | wallet42: may want to have more than just CLTV in that softfork too - see earlier #bitcoin-dev discussion re: greenaddress | 16:06 |
| petertodd | beamlaser: pick it up as in work on the problem? | 16:06 |
| beamlaser | yep | 16:08 |
| wallet42 | the proposal doesnt seem to be very controversial? | 16:08 |
| beamlaser | i will post my progress here | 16:09 |
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| petertodd | beamlaser: cool - you may end up duplicating other's work, but at worse you'll learn a lot :) | 16:12 |
| petertodd | wallet42: nope, OTOH not many (any?) have implemented apps against it, so the design might not be right yet | 16:12 |
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| kanzure | "Saying math can't prevent double-spending is near equivalent to saying it cannot be done." | 19:23 |
| kanzure | what?? that doesn't sound true. | 19:23 |
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| gmaxwell | There was some comment made on bitcoin-development recently where someone made some crazy argument that bitcoin had cryptographic security against double spending that I was surprised no one corrected (but I didn't wade into) | 19:26 |
| gmaxwell | Math can mean a lot of things. It could mean something was sound e.g. had absolute security, or maybe it means something has cryptographic security (intractable unless P==NP, ideally, though most cryptographic assumptions are not even that strong). Certantly it doesn't mean "cannot be done" in any way shape or form. | 19:28 |
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| kanzure | i suppose it depends on what your definitions are, but generally a disconnected system on one side of the planet cannot know that another spend happened on the other side of the planet 1 ns ago | 19:34 |
| kanzure | no matter how much math you use (as far as i know) (cc greg egan) | 19:34 |
| gmaxwell | yup. | 19:35 |
| gmaxwell | So, for example, one approach that doesn't work via punishment is quantum cash. Say you have a set of stored qbits which have a public identity and you can only sign with them once without ruining their state. (no one knows how to do this from an engineering perspective, but apparently there is some scheme of apparently physically possible operations that effectively give you that construction) | 19:37 |
| gmaxwell | Is that 'math' ? | 19:37 |
| gmaxwell | it's certantly not 'math' in a convention sense, it's a physical limit, though one that may be impossible to compromise if constructed perfectly. | 19:37 |
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| maaku | in my training as a physicist I became suspect of any appeal to math | 20:32 |
| maaku | mathmatically convenient models tend not to represent reality | 20:32 |
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| maaku | (_of course_ you use math to solve problems, but math can also not reflect reality) | 21:12 |
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| moa | maaku: correct, except within a consistent set of approximable axioms using reality-based theories | 21:19 |
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| maaku | moa: getting OT, but no that's my point. the basic axioms of a reality-based model tend not to be driven by factors which make the math easier | 21:21 |
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| maaku | there are almost no examples of math-based exploration of theoretical physics which results in new fundamental theories | 21:22 |
| maaku | what actually happens is that some experimental evidence results in more complicated math at the fundamental level | 21:23 |
| maaku | the theorists then work to find a better, more succinct description of reality that matches the experiment, but it rarely reaches the simplicity of the old regime | 21:24 |
| maaku | reality tends to complicate things | 21:24 |
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| rusty | maaku: so, I've hacked up a simulator for compact SPV paths across blocks, using various different tree topologies. | 21:40 |
| rusty | maaku: running it 20 times now, with different seeds, as there's a great deal of variation in path lengths. | 21:41 |
| maaku | rusty: sipa did a good deal of work on this | 21:44 |
| maaku | he found one construction that was particularly interesting | 21:45 |
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| maaku | but I also don't think there's been adequate work on what the metric should be (path to genesis is what sipa used, but I don't think that reflects mean path from A to B for arbitrary distances) | 21:46 |
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| rusty | maaku: That's a good question... fairly easy to test though. | 21:47 |
| maaku | well unless there's an analytical solution, evaluating each scheme is N^2 which gets a little expensive | 21:48 |
| maaku | so no scheme I've seen provides better than a small constant factor improvement over committing to all blocks | 21:49 |
| maaku | and there are benefits to committing to every block, so that is very likely the path that will get implemented | 21:50 |
| maaku | but we're talking about a soft-fork consensus rule, so someone needs to do the due diligence and make sure that there really isn't a vastly more efficient scheme we could be using instead | 21:50 |
| rusty | maaku: agreed. | 21:51 |
| rusty | maaku: I'm assuming all blocks. I tried to implement your " merklized heap filled by pushing nodes down the right-hand side" suggestion, hope I got it right. | 21:51 |
| maaku | rusty: ah i misread you then. I thought you were suggesting to commit a single back-link which is a function of the block height, which is what sipa looked at | 21:53 |
| rusty | maaku: and compared it with a breadth-first ordering, and a naive array-to-tree (no internal values) ordering. | 21:53 |
| maaku | ok cool this is interesting new work | 21:53 |
| maaku | rusty: what paths are you using as the evaluation metric? | 21:54 |
| rusty | maaku: OK, so I generate N (currently running w/ 1M) random u64s, with rule that you can skip back up to -1ULL / value nodes. | 21:56 |
| rusty | maaku: then I calculate optimal CSPV path back to genesis from "block" N-1. | 21:56 |
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| rusty | maaku: for each node on that path, I build the tree of prevs, and figure the depth of the prev I want. | 21:57 |
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| maaku | so you're using path to genesis? | 21:58 |
| rusty | maaku: yeah. | 21:58 |
| rusty | maaku: easy to calc path to something else and see what that does to results. | 21:58 |
| rusty | maaku: now, you previously said proof for tree with internal values is shorter. I think it's actually twice as long, right? (Well, 1 for top node, 3 for second row, etc). | 22:00 |
| rusty | (Actually, I think you said depth was 1 less, which is true...) | 22:00 |
| rusty | Anyway, results of calculating proof lenghts for N=1024*1024 over 20 runs: | 22:01 |
| rusty | naive: proof hashes 367-2863(1416.4+/-7.8e+02) | 22:01 |
| rusty | ideal: proof hashes 315-2143(1031.7+/-5.6e+02) | 22:01 |
| rusty | maaku: proof hashes 499-4007(1860+/-1.1e+03) | 22:01 |
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| rusty | I think this is because short SPV jumps (which are great with your tree) are actually really rare, since we select for long ones. | 22:02 |
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| maaku | ideal is what, breadth first ordering? | 22:08 |
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| rusty | maaku: yeah. label might be ambitious, but it's certainly *expensive* if not ideal :) | 22:08 |
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| rusty | maaku: https://github.com/rustyrussell/rusty-junkcode test-trees.c . It's not polished, but it Seems To Work(TM). | 22:22 |
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| maaku | rusty: actually the tier nolan right-path-compression trick might make naive array the best... | 22:35 |
| maaku | rusty: did you account for the approx double depth in the breadth-first case? | 22:36 |
| rusty | maaku: yep, same formula as the 'maaku' case. What's " tier nolan right-path-compression"? | 22:36 |
| maaku | rusty: in the way the bitcoin constructs merkle trees, you don't need to store 'empty' right branches on the right-hand path | 22:37 |
| maaku | since if there's an odd number of hashes, bitcoin duplicates the last hash | 22:37 |
| maaku | so if the last hash is the path you are going down, you don't need to store that hash twice. | 22:38 |
| rusty | maaku: in effect, naive does that already. | 22:38 |
| rusty | maaku: it builds the tree in [power-of-2] [remainder] parts. | 22:38 |
| maaku | only if you're accounting for it in your path lengths | 22:38 |
| maaku | in the extreme case the 2^N + 1 -th, you need to store only one untaken branch to reference the last element | 22:39 |
| rusty | maaku: yeah, I actually build the tree to measure the path length. It's naive, but probably less buggy that way. | 22:39 |
| maaku | the serialization would be the left branch for the root, then the 2^N + 1 -th item, no matter the depth of the tree | 22:39 |
| rusty | maaku: exactly. there's even a pretty diagram of that in the source. | 22:40 |
| maaku | ok i'll look at the source but what you're saying here isn't reflecting the optimization i'm talking about | 22:40 |
| rusty | * ^ | 22:42 |
| rusty | * / \ | 22:42 |
| rusty | * /\ \ | 22:42 |
| rusty | * / \ \ | 22:42 |
| rusty | * / \ \ | 22:42 |
| rusty | * /\ /\ \ | 22:42 |
| rusty | * 0 1 2 3 4 | 22:42 |
| maaku | rusty: (looking at code) the ideal case would have proof length of 2 * log2, no? | 22:42 |
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| maaku | because since it is storing internal values it would look like the maaku case | 22:43 |
| maaku | just with the block headers distributed throughout the tree differently. | 22:43 |
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| rusty | maaku: not quite, since depth 0 => 1 hash. | 22:44 |
| rusty | maaku: (from - to) >= 1... | 22:45 |
| rusty | maaku: but yes, the cases should be identical. | 22:45 |
| maaku | ah right i missed the required 1 hash | 22:45 |
| rusty | maaku: I'm really surprised how good naive is. I was going to write a hybrid "64k batches of breadth-first" tree, but I'm not sure it's worth it. | 22:47 |
| maaku | rusty: naive would never be adopted in bitcoin core, sorry | 22:47 |
| maaku | it's good for reference only. requiring recalculation of the entire tree for every block creation/validation is just too much work for this feature | 22:48 |
| rusty | maaku: yeah, I was wondering about that. It seems like it should be incrementable (is that a word?), but maybe it would need N/2 blocks reshuffled every N == power-of-2? | 22:49 |
| rusty | maaku: commented out I put a swapcount in the maakutree; you're right, it's *very* nice from that POV. | 22:50 |
| gmaxwell | Well maybe it would be workable, given you can do a million sha256/sec on a general cpu... but there would have to be a darn good reason for it, ... normative datastructures are like that, there is a lot of pressure to make sure you've got it right, since your decision binds even people with much slower hardware to implement exactly the same thing. | 22:50 |
| maaku | I'm not sure how it would possibly be an incremental structure? Every node in the tree changes position for each block | 22:51 |
| rusty | maaku: no, consider the diagram above. Adding node 5 just means moving 4 down. | 22:52 |
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| rusty | maaku: I didn't think too hard about it though... | 22:52 |
| maaku | rusty: ok sorry i was thinking ideal. naive is easy to make incremental | 22:53 |
| rusty | maaku: oh yeah, ideal *sucks*. But batching it might be a compromise. | 22:54 |
| maaku | i'm going to start calling ideal == optimal, and naive == array | 22:54 |
| rusty | maaku: OK, sure. Will rename and push now. | 22:54 |
| maaku | that's the terminology we had been using before | 22:54 |
| maaku | sorry my reading comprehension fail :\ | 22:54 |
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| maaku | rusty: so I'm surprised the naive array does so well ... even better than 'optimal' over 1M blocks | 23:35 |
| maaku | oh he's gone | 23:35 |
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| maaku | gmaxwell: so I thought rusty might have made a mistake but so far the code looks alright | 23:39 |
| gmaxwell | maaku: about? that structure he's describing sounds like the plain insertion ordered merkel tree that PT called MMR just needs log extra storage to do efficient appends. (Sorry, busy with four other things and haven't been following conversation) | 23:42 |
| maaku | right, MMR is more efficient than any of the inner-node structures we were considering | 23:46 |
| maaku | at least for a binary tree where having an inner node means expanding the tree to twice the depth | 23:47 |
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| maaku | if having an inner node with its own value plus two branches means that skipping that node requires 2 hashes (1 hash of value, 1 hash for untaken branch), then it's a net loss to use an inner node structure | 23:58 |
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| maaku | because you end up using more hashes to ellide the values along the way than you save from having a shorter tree | 23:59 |
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