| --- Log opened Sun Dec 28 00:00:05 2014 | ||
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| op_mul | "According to our research we should be able to store Private Keys in the DNA within 14-16 Months at the beginning 2016. This would make passports, credit-cards, driver license obsolete. All one than needs to do is to take a [swab] with a simple machine." | 01:53 |
|---|---|---|
| gmaxwell | derp | 01:56 |
| gmaxwell | talk about sidechannel leakage. Don't breath too much. | 01:56 |
| op_mul | would need more than a wizard for a machine to modify someone's DNA to store a passport. seems like a good deal though. invite someone over for beer, obtain DNA from glass, you end up with all their money and a copy of their passport for AML. | 01:57 |
| adam3us | retarded, as are most biometric systems. these people rarely understand public key crypto | 01:57 |
| gmaxwell | "My private key gave me cancer" "sorry, I got a virus that overwrote my keys" | 01:58 |
| op_mul | even without touching-things sidechannel attacks, fingerprint based private keys would be low entropy *and* impossible to reproduce. fingerprint scanners are totally just fuzzy matching. | 01:58 |
| wumpus | would be interesting, if they also used DNA to do the private key computation, need a special security storage for private keys in your DNA | 01:59 |
| op_mul | wumpus: only way I see that being possible is if you genetically modify your children. | 01:59 |
| adam3us | reader can copy, or interpolate enough to answer more queries from a few results; some biometrics are detachable (fingers!) and the liveness tests are pretty crappy. failing which there is always kidnap. you actually want a soft-failure on id theft - take card and pin, thats better than biometric false positive side-effect | 02:00 |
| wumpus | op_mul: small price to pay, right | 02:00 |
| gmaxwell | I'm sure it would be would be "sci-fi possible" for your body to create a computer like device that sat under your finger tips, stored a private key securely internally, and could communicate via light with the outside world... like an embedded smartcard but made of meat. and such an upgrade could, presumably be directed by modification for your DNA... but I assume this isn't what they're thinkin | 02:01 |
| gmaxwell | g about. :P | 02:01 |
| adam3us | op_mul: its a common argument that they've somehow magically created a secure public key system composed of sampling some points as a result of a challenge. however i doubt its secure beyond a few samples, and you have to trust the reader not to do a full sample as during the setup phase. | 02:01 |
| wumpus | op_mul: anyhow as any cell has a copy, storing data in their DNA is kind of wasteful (but very redundant?) | 02:01 |
| op_mul | wumpus: pets might work too. here's my parrot-wallet. | 02:02 |
| adam3us | gmaxwell: even if its possible i think its actually undesirable. you want a soft-fail where you just give the man with the gun your card & pin. otherwise things escalate from there. | 02:02 |
| wumpus | gmaxwell: I don't think so either, unfortunately :) | 02:02 |
| gmaxwell | op_mul: they already put RFID transponders in pets. You could do that one _today_. | 02:02 |
| gmaxwell | adam3us: but some guy chopping off your auth-finger makes for a much better movie plot! | 02:02 |
| op_mul | adam3us: I'm thinking for fingerprints there's not enough variation. once you do some filtering on a fingerprint, they must all be pretty the same. at least nowhere near 2**256 combinations. | 02:03 |
| adam3us | the biometrics guys would say "liveness test" but all of their stuff is weak and spoofable and ultimately fails via kidnap / blackmail which are both less pleasant than soft-fail: hand over pin & card. | 02:03 |
| adam3us | op_mul: but other than "trust the reader" problem (and you shouldnt do that) - if there is an enrolment scan it can be repeated by a hostile reader - people leave fingerprints everywheer | 02:04 |
| op_mul | a common comment I see about Bitcoin and sybil attacks is that we should do some sort of DNA based anti sybil. it invariably fails when it comes to proving the DNA just isn't /dev/random, and that you can't prove you own it because their solution to double spending was storing everybodies DNA in the block chain :P | 02:05 |
| adam3us | its also identity based. who wants to put their identity everywhere. you cant MAC-tumble a fingerprint. | 02:05 |
| op_mul | would suck if, as gmaxwell said, you based all your money on a cancerous blood cell. | 02:06 |
| gmaxwell | At some datacenters (e.g. equinix is an example) they use some annoying hand shape biometric thing. Most techs that frequent these places have figured out that if, when you enroll, you put in only three fingers (like someone sawed off your ring and pinky), it'll enroll fine, and the reader never throws false negatives anymore, and even better: everyones can match the hand pritn of anyone whos don | 02:06 |
| gmaxwell | e that, so you can share access cards. | 02:06 |
| op_mul | :< | 02:06 |
| adam3us | yup the biometric folks not only fail misunderstanding of public key crypto concept, they fail the 5-year-old adversarial thinking test | 02:07 |
| gmaxwell | "oh youre that guy with the 6 sigma handprint, I reconize you!" | 02:07 |
| wumpus | hehe | 02:08 |
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| adam3us | hmm what the biometric guys are not doing - so if you trust the reader (dumb idea when its under the control of the attacker) - what you could do is fuzzy-hash it, to get a private key, sign a challenge response with ecdsa etc, and have the verifier store the ecdsa public key. that'd be immune to interpolation. | 02:13 |
| gmaxwell | adam3us: there are at least academics doing that, though the fuzzy hash needs side information. | 02:14 |
| adam3us | i am pretty sure none of the deployed systems are doing that. they're server-side and diy thinkers - so they'll have made a "signature scheme" made from sampling challenged subsets, which no doubt fails under a few samples to interpolation or multiple challenges (grind to find a challenge you can answer) | 02:15 |
| adam3us | gmaxwell: side-info like steering with some guidance from the server that has the private key? | 02:15 |
| gmaxwell | there is some data (I think it's public) that helps the fuzzy hash reliably find the same secret. Created as a side effect of pubkey generation. | 02:16 |
| gmaxwell | I spent a while looking into fuzzy hashes for the idea of using them for "brainwallet" like usage, e.g. where you get asked to provide N passwords and they must be only somewhat accurate. | 02:17 |
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| op_mul | gmaxwell: given how little entropy brainwallets have.. you want to make them worse? sounds like joric's idea not yours. | 02:25 |
| michagogo | 12:06:23 <gmaxwell> At some datacenters (e.g. equinix is an example) they use some annoying hand shape biometric thing. <-- sounds like the fast passport control system at Ben Gurion airport | 02:27 |
| michagogo | It's based on "the geometry of the back of the hand", iirc | 02:27 |
| adam3us | op_mul: well it could be a net-win because you could ask the user more information that they'd likely start to forget the specifics of. so with the right params that could be a net win (fuzzy hash of more passwords or q/a type things) | 02:28 |
| op_mul | a lot of those sort of things are probably gimped by the users not wanting false negatives and not wanting it to be treacle slow. combine that with a cheap micro the micro, and you've got a consumer product. | 02:28 |
| op_mul | stupid enough. | 02:29 |
| op_mul | stupid english. | 02:29 |
| michagogo | (Though I assume it'll be phased out within the next couple years, when biometric passports are permanently adopted) | 02:29 |
| adam3us | gmaxwell: i did a simplified version of it in a design for guardianedge hard disk encryption product. it uses hash of canonicalized answers to q&a as a trustless backup mechanism. | 02:30 |
| gmaxwell | op_mul: well I was exploring the idea. Not every thing I think about is useful. I spent some time tonight develpoing a proof of the complexity class of problems solvable (ab)using a particular character in a superhero fiction as a computing device. | 02:31 |
| * op_mul nods | 02:32 | |
| adam3us | trustless backup ie you forget your password but you might still remember your question answers; and you dont want to trust a server to know the actual disk key and send it to you if you answer the questions, so the questions are stored locally and the key derived from the answers. | 02:32 |
| adam3us | you can potentially limit guesses with server assistance, still without handing the server the automatic ability to derive your key. (key derivation with split keys and the server part with some rate limiting) | 02:33 |
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| shesek | adam3us, you could also rate limit the guesses by just using key stretching and no 3rd party (for password recovery, even 2-3 weeks of stretch time would make sense) | 03:41 |
| shesek | though, aiming for 2-3 weeks on consumer-grade hardware would probably be reduced to a few days for an attacker with a specialized hardware, but still | 03:42 |
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| gmaxwell | shesek: unfortunately users make mistakes. having to wait a week on hardening would very likely make the backup worthless. | 03:57 |
| shesek | gmaxwell, if its only used for password recovery and meant for extreme cases, I don't think it would be that bad | 03:58 |
| gmaxwell | shesek: there are lots of people who show up on the forums and irc with lost bitcoin-qt or armory wallets where they think they kinda have some idea. There is some guy on reddit who has a tidy business cracking wallets for people. | 03:59 |
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| shesek | well, giving those people an option to recover their funds by answering a bunch of questions they're very likely to remember the answer to, at the expense of having to wait a long time to find out if their answers are correct, would probably make the situation better | 04:02 |
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| gmaxwell | "Whats your favorite food" "oh crap, there are three different things I could have put there, and two of them have two alternative spellings I might have used." etc. | 04:04 |
| gmaxwell | in any case it's a tricky tradeoff. users forget keys / can't figure out their trapdoor keys with remarkable frequency. | 04:05 |
| gmaxwell | and funds lost to that are no less lost than funds lost to theft. | 04:05 |
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| adam3us | shesek: see outsourceable kdf https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=311000.msg3341985#msg3341985 | 04:05 |
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| adam3us | vitalik strikes again! (stumbled on while looking for above link) https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/10/23/information-theoretic-account-secure-brainwallets/ no citation and i'm pretty sure it was me who told him about that idea and his alternative constructions are inferior. what is it thats so hard about citations! | 04:07 |
| adam3us | (on the key stretching). yes the system i designed used normal key stretching pbkdf2 if i recall on top of the hashed canonicalized answers. | 04:10 |
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| midnightmagic | either it's not on purpose and he has some kind of brain malfunction, or it's on purpose and he's a bullshit artist. either way why does anyone still talk to him? | 04:15 |
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| adam3us | midnightmagic: this was a while ago (oct 2013). yeah i kind of learnt my lesson. dont review stuff (or they try to attribute you as an advisor to add credibility), dont feed them ideas or they borrow them (with or without attribution, you lose either way) to polish their alt-coin's reason-for-existence story, dont tell them why their alt-coin is perceived as a scam, they'll tweak the story to make it less obvious | 04:17 |
| adam3us | midnightmagic: dont critique why their system is broken and cant work, they'll tweak it so its less obviously broken, but still broken until you and other reviewers run out of energy (gmaxwell observation) | 04:18 |
| shesek | adam3us, it is an effective way to get security reviews for free, though :-) | 04:19 |
| adam3us | midnightmagic: gmaxwell had a phrase to capture that last effect.. kind of forgot the phrase, something like security by reviewer exhaustion | 04:19 |
| midnightmagic | adam3us: for what it's worth, there's at least one person who notices the regular attempts to erase your name from pages that credit you properly. :( i've wanted to mention that for a while. | 04:19 |
| midnightmagic | we play by different rules. it's a common argumentative tactic, I encounter it almost daily. I encountered it yesterday. | 04:20 |
| midnightmagic | "we" being every human, not to attempt to draw tribal lines | 04:20 |
| shesek | adam3us, that outsourceable kdf schema is pretty interesting. the big difference between the kind of hardware users and attackers would have has always seemed like a big problem for me | 04:20 |
| adam3us | midnightmagic: maybe i did it to myself by calling bullshit on the alt-coin pyramid scam thing. then they like the idea but they dont want to credit me as then i'll be more likely to jump in and attack their scheme. cant have it both ways i guess (when the comment is alt-coin associated) either you get credited and they're doing it to pump their alts credibility or you dont. but vitaliks article other than being on the ethereum blog wasnt | 04:21 |
| shesek | letting 3rd parties operate hardware for that and compete on prices would probably make it very affordable for users, and make it possible to use much more rounds and slow down attackers | 04:22 |
| midnightmagic | adam3us: I've seen it elsewhere too. The bitcoin wiki; wikipedia.. | 04:22 |
| shesek | I wouldn't mind paying even a few hundreds dollars per attempt, knowing that an attacker would have to pay that too | 04:22 |
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| adam3us | shesek: yes that way you can get a massive kdf with very efficient hardware and give litecoin gpu miners something useful to do with their gpus now the litecoin asics are out (otherwise they'll chase primecoin or x11/x13) | 04:23 |
| shesek | and given that the profit margin would probably get close to zero due to competition, an attacker with his own hardware wouldn't be able to cut his costs much | 04:23 |
| adam3us | shesek: you scale the kdf cost according to the value protected. if it was $1mil maybe $100 per guess would be appropriate. then as long as your password has > log2($1mil/$100) bits of entropy in it you're uneconomical to attack. | 04:24 |
| adam3us | shesek: yes! | 04:24 |
| adam3us | midnightmagic: yeah there was some stuff on wiki i had a slight attempt to fix some of it but the pages are locked and i quickly gave up to argumentative wikipedia editors who werent interested to fix. | 04:25 |
| shesek | adam3us, ah, that's an interesting observation! you could indeed make it so its entirely unprofitable to even attempt brute forcing it | 04:26 |
| shesek | we could even have wallet software adjust the scrypt parameters according to the password strength and amount of funds stored | 04:27 |
| adam3us | shesek: exactly. thats the idea, choose the kdf difficulty according to that. you can also increase the kdf cost over time (by deleting some info) and keep different amounts in different wallets (need different passwords) for spending money vs savings or something. | 04:27 |
| adam3us | shesek: though its not scrypt, its a variant of rivest-wagner's RSA based time-lock puzzle | 04:28 |
| adam3us | shesek: if someone was feeling energetic they could have a go at launching that as a mining/distributed computing thing as a way to earn money with GPUs. you dont have to encourage brain wallets, you could use it on backedup protected encrypted private keys as a last line of defense if your device is stolen or remotely compromised. | 04:29 |
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| adam3us | shesek: tho if people are going to use brain-wallets tis is safer than the alternatives | 04:29 |
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| shesek | adam3us, maybe I can suggest that to the zennet guys, I bump into them from time to time (they're located here too, in Israel) | 04:32 |
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| shesek | though, I'm not entirely sure that zennet isn't yet another vaporware (don't know enough about it/them to know for sure, but I somewhat get that feeling...) | 04:32 |
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| adam3us | its a fun project for anyone interested really. could be done as a coordinated service with a small fee more simply than a p2p protocol, with a master-slave server acting as a pool as a first version. | 04:39 |
| gmaxwell | might be the sort of thing that would be fun to unify with the group vanitygen stuff I've talked about before. | 04:40 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. take the highest paying work: kdf, vanitygen, etc. | 04:40 |
| shesek | right. its much smaller in scope than what Zennet is aiming for | 04:41 |
| shesek | but the hard part is finding people who are interested enough to pursue it, who else have the technical knowledge to implement it | 04:41 |
| gmaxwell | yea general computation stuff just has so many crazy problems. | 04:41 |
| shesek | s/else/also | 04:41 |
| adam3us | gmaxwell: i think this could be a useful thing to do because it'll detract from the alt-coin pyramid effect. people have gpus and they want and enjoy doing something with them. | 04:42 |
| gmaxwell | see also the illfated cpushare stuff. | 04:42 |
| gmaxwell | I'd long hoped gpu mining bitcoin would contribut to more general compute for cash stuff, since bitcoin was providing base load that justified gpu farm investment; but it seemed the interest wasn't there. | 04:43 |
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| midnightmagic | maintaining gpu farms is exceedingly time-consuming. IMO the larger the farm, the more individuals doing it as a hobby end up eating all their time filling out RMA forms | 04:46 |
| gmaxwell | yea, indeed hm. I think I've _finally_ stopped startling awake thinking I'm hearing a failing gpu fan. | 04:46 |
| midnightmagic | that's why I stopped. and the reliable cards with ecc, or built for titan (for example) were so expensive there's no point in running them. | 04:47 |
| gmaxwell | speaking of mining, there is a not widely circulated special group buy for spondoolies SP20 http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/roadstresss-sp20-special-holiday-gb two for $1000 instead of the normal $659/ea. | 04:48 |
| atgreen | gmaxwell: I have a partial LLVM port already, and just because of Rust. Rust only became useful for systems level embedded stuff recently. | 04:58 |
| gmaxwell | atgreen: awesome! and yes, rusts progress on really bare systems is part of why I asked instead of just thinking about it privately. | 04:58 |
| atgreen | I used to work with Graydon Hoare (rust inventor) many years ago. He's an awesome guy. | 04:59 |
| atgreen | so rust has been on my radar before it was rust | 05:00 |
| adam3us | atgreen: me to, he was an intern at ZKS working in the security group. | 05:01 |
| gmaxwell | (Well I worked for Mozilla in the research group; so I was sort of flooded by rust, and am increasingly obligated to use it because they've more or less implemented every single thing I trolled them about.) | 05:01 |
| adam3us | atgreen: that was around 2000. at the time he was using up his free time coding an object oriented graphical OS. unfortunately now he's at stellar of all places. https://www.stellar.org/about/ | 05:03 |
| gmaxwell | (Including the semantics for integer overflow that I wanted: http://discuss.rust-lang.org/t/a-tale-of-twos-complement/1062 ) | 05:05 |
| atgreen | adam3us: then he joined my group at Cygnus/Red Hat and worked on embedded tools | 05:05 |
| atgreen | adam3us: are you in Toronto? | 05:05 |
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| gmaxwell | atgreen: one of the things I was thinking about wrt moxie is if there are arch affordances which make the frequent bounds testing less costly. (or at least ones that are less complex than per object MMU like protection) | 05:09 |
| gmaxwell | (related http://blog.regehr.org/archives/1154) | 05:10 |
| atgreen | I have lots of opcode space for trapping math instructions. But you'd probably have to hand-code their use with __builtin functions. | 05:13 |
| atgreen | the hardware implementation is realtively easy. divide already traps, and I guess I just trap when the carry bit is set. | 05:15 |
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| atgreen | err, overflow bit | 05:17 |
| gmaxwell | well in a language like rust they could just be used (or at least when the proposal is implemented; this was related to aformentioned trolling. Standard rust integer types will be permitted to trap on overflow at runtime, but not required to. On x86 they'd only trap in debug builds.) | 05:17 |
| atgreen | hmm | 05:17 |
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| gmaxwell | really hardware bounds checking probably has more pratical impact, but it's not a trivial addition. | 05:18 |
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| adam3us | atgreen: no i am in malta these days, i've moved around a bit. i relocated to montreal to work for zks and graydon relocated to montreal for the internship also. | 05:22 |
| atgreen | oh, right - they were in mtl | 05:26 |
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| atgreen | jgarzik: https://github.com/jgarzik/moxiebox/pull/11 | 05:38 |
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| atgreen | you'll need to rebuild all of the tools. This was the last pending ISA breaking change I can think of. | 05:39 |
| jgarzik | atgreen, ok! | 05:47 |
| * jgarzik needs to update the d/l script to do cvs-up/svn-up/git-pull in case of existing dirs. | 05:48 | |
| hearn | jgarzik: do you have any experience debugging dns, perchance? | 05:51 |
| jgarzik | hearn, A bit. Depends on which area. I wrote my own DNS server: https://github.com/jgarzik/dvdns Had to debug that. | 05:55 |
| hearn | i'm doing the same. for some reason my server works fine when querying it directly. when doing a regular recursive lookup, my isp resolver gives back SERVFAIL | 05:56 |
| hearn | i suspect a general dns configuration error rather than a bug in the server | 05:56 |
| jgarzik | Was that really 9 years ago? Shit. | 05:56 |
| hearn | of course because it's an error along the recursive path, i can't see any debug logs :( | 05:56 |
| jgarzik | hearn, I assume you are setting the recursive bit | 05:57 |
| hearn | you mean in the response? yes RD bit is copied across | 05:57 |
| jgarzik | hearn, in query? | 05:57 |
| hearn | i'm using dig, so yes. when i use +trace (non recursive) it works | 05:58 |
| jgarzik | hearn, Your server copies the recursive bit into its upstream query? | 05:58 |
| hearn | yes | 05:58 |
| atgreen | jgarzik: I have an update script in the moxie-cores repo you can take | 05:59 |
| jgarzik | OK, good. Anyway, I must pause and run an errand for the wifey. Back in 30 min. | 05:59 |
| atgreen | https://github.com/atgreen/moxie-cores/blob/master/tools/update-tools-sources.sh | 05:59 |
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| naturalog | hi | 07:49 |
| naturalog | shesek: got your email, replied | 07:49 |
| naturalog | shesek: join #zennet | 07:50 |
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| shesek | naturalog, yep, got it :) | 08:25 |
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| op_mul | gmaxwell: I'd buy one of those spondoolies boxes for $500 but. that difficulty increase though. | 11:56 |
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| op_mul | gmaxwell: also with the comment about general computing, I've thought of setting up "pools" for various CPU heavy tasks before (that I could even have "shares" for), the sticking point is that I know some asshole is going to point a botnet at it, and then people come knocking on my door expecting me to be responsible. then you have to ask for ID or something, and then nobody can contribute. | 12:12 |
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| Luke-Jr | op_mul: what difficulty increase? :D | 12:25 |
| op_mul | Luke-Jr: looks like this period will be a go-upper, probably. http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-small-lin.png | 12:27 |
| Luke-Jr | dunno | 12:27 |
| Luke-Jr | not by much if so? | 12:28 |
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| op_mul | probably 5% this period. I don't think it would be possible for *me* to break even with my power costs, even though they've got a lot lower recently. | 12:31 |
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| MRL-Relay | [surae] so, i just finished reading the shadowcash whitepaper, and I'm very confused because it appears to me as if they don't implement any NIZK *anything* and they're just throwing around terminology they don't understand. Am I missing something, or are *they* missing something? | 13:43 |
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| op_mul | surae: wouldn't be the first time somebody launched an altcoin with none of the features it claims to have. | 13:46 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] for sure | 13:46 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] just wondering if anyone was familiar with it | 13:47 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, is there a significant performance penalty for exception handling on overflow? | 14:06 |
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| adam3us | op_mul: i think its required that the computing task operates over tor and has bandwidth constrains or per MB charges imposed | 14:33 |
| op_mul | adam3us: I'm not sure how you'd police bandwidth limits. even forgetting a HS, botnet owners have unlimited bandwidth and unlimited IP addresses (unlimited in this context anyway) | 14:35 |
| op_mul | adam3us: and the work I was thinking of was literally just "scan this range for matches, return partial matches as PoW" | 14:36 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, suspect the dip and rebound are just noise | 14:43 |
| phantomcircuit | or maybe someones putting hw online but like | 14:44 |
| phantomcircuit | why | 14:44 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: only reason I thought it was real is that the timing matches up with Bitmain having stock of their new chips. | 14:44 |
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| phantomcircuit | i guss | 14:45 |
| phantomcircuit | it's kind of funny | 14:45 |
| phantomcircuit | when the difficulty dropped all the calculators started showing infinity profit | 14:45 |
| op_mul | I mean, there's nobody else. pretty much everybody is claiming early or mid 2015 for their next chips. asicminer, KNC, spondoolies, bitfury. there's not reall many other big players at this point I don't think. | 14:46 |
| phantomcircuit | everybody is targeting 16nm | 14:49 |
| phantomcircuit | 28nm HPC is a ~30% improvement | 14:49 |
| op_mul | be interesting to see if anybody hits the mark. | 14:49 |
| phantomcircuit | except it seems like people actually using it are getting more than that | 14:49 |
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| op_mul | yeah. I'd be surprised if anybody hits 0.05W/GHs at any sane production price point | 14:50 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, i get a nice laugh at people quoting 0.05J/Gh | 14:51 |
| phantomcircuit | i mean you can do that... for like 10x the capital costs | 14:51 |
| phantomcircuit | wow what the S5 is chained? | 14:52 |
| op_mul | yeah. | 14:52 |
| op_mul | it means they're making bank on the S5. no DC-DC. | 14:52 |
| phantomcircuit | $0.35/Gh @ 0.5W/Gh? | 14:53 |
| phantomcircuit | yeah they're making bank on that | 14:53 |
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| op_mul | could be incendiary or genius depending if they got it right | 14:54 |
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| cookiemonster | is anyone going to the miami bitcoin hackathon? | 14:54 |
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| phantomcircuit | even then though that's like | 14:55 |
| phantomcircuit | minimum 120 days @ $0.05/kWh | 14:55 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: thing is, it's a parallel series design. depending how they did it, you could lose a whole board just due to one bad chip. | 14:55 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, really? | 14:56 |
| phantomcircuit | why would you do that | 14:56 |
| op_mul | https://i.imgur.com/lZmXzh2.jpg | 14:56 |
| op_mul | you'd do that to save on level shifting I suppose | 14:57 |
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| phantomcircuit | op_mul, yeah i guess | 14:59 |
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| op_mul | they've cut out most of their costs, so going even further probably makes sense. there's almost no cost in these boards. low current so you can have almost no copper on the board, no expensive 0.6v supplies | 15:00 |
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| op_mul | don't know why they chose the stupid beaglebone to control them though | 15:01 |
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| phantomcircuit | op_mul, i'd guess they bought them for nothing from cointerra | 15:16 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: ha, probably. | 15:17 |
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| gmaxwell | I'd rather have beaglebone to an rpi any day. | 15:20 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, any idea if these have digital vcc control? | 15:21 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: for a miner though? it's like using a gold axe to weed your garden. you don't even need a web UI, an app that talks to a simple API would be so much easier. | 15:22 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: I've no detail outside of squinting at their photos. | 15:22 |
| phantomcircuit | huh this kind of looks like they have the 12v from the psu directly connected to the chips | 15:23 |
| phantomcircuit | that cant be right | 15:23 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: there's a small DCDC on the back I think, you can see the coil on the upper right of the board. 12 > 9v. | 15:23 |
| op_mul | oh ha, the picture of the boards are actually huge. https://i.imgur.com/InVQWW8.jpg | 15:24 |
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| op_mul | phantomcircuit: they mention that you can run it straight from 9v. so I suppose in that mode they just leave the buck converter on permanently so it's just effectively a short through the inductor. | 15:30 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, yeah but where the hell are you going to get a 9v AC:DC | 15:32 |
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| op_mul | phantomcircuit: 4 * 9 in series gets you 36v. | 15:33 |
| op_mul | float three 12v server power supplies and you'd be smiling | 15:34 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, now that is a run away failure asking to happen :P | 15:35 |
| op_mul | I don't see how else they expect people to get 9v power supplies. | 15:38 |
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| phantomcircuit | op_mul, i dont understand why they didn't just put 33% more chips on there | 15:40 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: the regulation on PC power supplies is terrible. I think they're trying to get around that. | 15:41 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, hmm maybe | 15:41 |
| phantomcircuit | they could still have the buck there though | 15:42 |
| phantomcircuit | would be a bit cheaper | 15:42 |
| op_mul | I have ones that dip down to 11v or so when you're drawing a lot of power. might have been enough to make the strings unstable? there's room on the top row for one more voltage step, so there's got to be a reason other than space on the board. | 15:44 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, also you can get server supplies that are well regulated for ~ the same price (but maybe 5% of them will experience infant mortality) | 15:44 |
| op_mul | xbox 360 power supplies are cheaper again and have better regulation. | 15:45 |
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| op_mul | actually maybe not, there's a lot of server power supplies for peanuts on ebay | 15:46 |
| op_mul | guess I'm thinking small scale and not building farms of the things :) | 15:47 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, you can buy server psus used on the cheap in bulk | 15:49 |
| phantomcircuit | but you have to build adapter boards to pci-e atx | 15:49 |
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| phantomcircuit | (not to mention to clear pmbus errors which can cause the supply to stop, even when you're never going to fix a broken one) | 15:50 |
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| gmaxwell | [semi-ot] this is fun, has ROC charts for timing correlation attacks against tor: http://www.spiegel.de/media/media-35538.pdf | 16:39 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, any guess what was redacted on page 13 | 16:47 |
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| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: a person's name | 16:49 |
| phantomcircuit | ah | 16:51 |
| phantomcircuit | i like the "Seems to work" part | 16:51 |
| op_mul | it still endlessly amuses me that people think they can remain anonymous while using bitcoin. | 16:51 |
| phantomcircuit | well this is a pretty good indication of what i've suspected for a while | 16:53 |
| op_mul | my block post-processor spits out a list of known address tacks every time there's a new block. half the time it's people's full names. even if people were capable of using bitcoin properly they would be very exposed, but they can't even manage that. | 16:53 |
| phantomcircuit | throwing a good amount of very noisy garbage through tor would seem to likely defeat these techniques | 16:53 |
| belcher | op_mul in the future could coinjoin make bitcoin anonymous / pseudonymous ? | 16:54 |
| belcher | if used for the vast majority of transactions say | 16:55 |
| op_mul | belcher: I doubt it. even if people could use bitcoin properly (they don't), timing attacks are easy with Bitcoin. any person using SPV also broadcasts their wallet contents to random people on the network, electrum users are even more at risk. | 16:55 |
| sipa | belcher: don't confuse anonimity with privacy | 16:55 |
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| sipa | coinjoin improves privacy but it definitely does not give you anonimity (at least the party you're joining with knows which input/output is yours) | 16:56 |
| op_mul | belcher: there's people using coinjoin who send money into a join, and then make the exit point the address they started with. | 16:56 |
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| op_mul | sipa: that too. | 16:57 |
| sipa | anonimity is a very strong condition; it really means that nobody can know anything (unless you intentionally reveal) | 16:57 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, if there are a bunch of independent parties with inputs you can in theory keep the inputs and outputs from being linked even by the coordinator | 16:57 |
| sipa | how? | 16:58 |
| phantomcircuit | send your output over one tor circuit | 16:58 |
| op_mul | I don't think anonymity is obtainable with Bitcoin, or with the internet in general. it's best just to accept that fact. | 16:58 |
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| phantomcircuit | retrieve the tx to sign over another | 16:58 |
| phantomcircuit | and hell why not use another to send the signed tx | 16:58 |
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| belcher | op_mul so in the situation coinjoin worked, you could use other things like SPV and electrum to deanon people | 16:58 |
| phantomcircuit | but this is of course trivial to dos | 16:58 |
| belcher | and if sipa's objection was also somehow solved | 16:59 |
| sipa | zerocash/etc give you anonimity at the protocol level, at very high cost (but still doesn't prevent your ISP from spying on your transactions of course) | 16:59 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, and is well... moon math :P | 16:59 |
| sipa | yeah | 16:59 |
| sipa | there be sharks | 16:59 |
| naturalog | what's wrong with I2P? | 16:59 |
| sipa | *snarks | 16:59 |
| sipa | naturalog: nothing? | 16:59 |
| op_mul | belcher: yes. lite clients are hilariously leaky for your privacy. with electrum there's a party of community run servers, all of which who will receive a copy of your wallets addresses. | 17:00 |
| naturalog | good anonymity | 17:00 |
| sipa | no, better privacy; no anonimity afaik :) | 17:00 |
| gmaxwell | naturalog: I2P has a lot less study at least. | 17:00 |
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| naturalog | but on I2P its so much easier to earn more anonymity than tor or so | 17:00 |
| sipa | there is no such thing as 'more anonimity'; you can get more privacy | 17:01 |
| sipa | you're either anonimous or not | 17:01 |
| gmaxwell | naturalog: doubtful. It has a much smaller userbase so the maximum anonymity is much lower. | 17:01 |
| sipa | well, not really - but it's much less a scale | 17:01 |
| naturalog | the point is that you can shuffle the peers and route as you wish | 17:01 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: there actually are degrees of anonymity, e.g. set size. | 17:01 |
| sipa | yeah | 17:01 |
| naturalog | less a scale, true, but very different, a closed system | 17:01 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: I would say that's an oxymoron. you're either anonymous or you're not, I don't think there's an option of levels of gray. | 17:01 |
| gmaxwell | op_mul: there is, at a minimum, set size. The distribution of identities you could be has some entropy. | 17:02 |
| gmaxwell | If you have a perfect anonymity system with three users ... well.. | 17:02 |
| naturalog | when you broadcast a tx, no one has no know where it came from. so on structure like i2p makes it possible to transmit transactions anonymously. one cannot distinguish who created the tx | 17:03 |
| op_mul | naturalog: "no one". you've just lost. | 17:03 |
| naturalog | since you dont need a reply, the source may remain unknown | 17:03 |
| naturalog | yes cause who can know who actually created the tx? maybe im just passing it over? | 17:03 |
| gmaxwell | naturalog: that sounds like magical thinking. There are many ways that your anonymity leaks. And what you're saying could equally (or better) be said of tor. | 17:04 |
| naturalog | no, tor encodes the sources | 17:04 |
| naturalog | since it has to give you an answer | 17:04 |
| op_mul | naturalog: bitcoin nodes are very, very leaky about which transactions they are interested in. given a particular address, I can actually test your node to see if your wallet contains it or not :) | 17:04 |
| naturalog | and if only say btc txs are in concern, how can that anonymity be broken? | 17:04 |
| sipa | by all other i2p nodes conspiring against you | 17:05 |
| naturalog | op_mul: ic true welel the user has to be aware ofc | 17:05 |
| gmaxwell | naturalog: perhaps you should move this to #bitcoin, sounds like you're really underinformed about transaction privacy. | 17:05 |
| sipa | or by leaking your information through other means | 17:05 |
| naturalog | sipa: they can all still conspire against me, who knows who created the tx? | 17:05 |
| sipa | you have a tcp connection to at least one other | 17:05 |
| phantomcircuit | 1gmaxok well that was kind of interesting but not really new data | 17:05 |
| naturalog | sure but maybe i didnt create it just passing it over | 17:05 |
| sipa | then you know | 17:06 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: yea, we knew it could be done, was interesting to see analysis of it. | 17:06 |
| phantomcircuit | basically this is exactly the type of attack tors security model specifically doesn't prevent | 17:06 |
| sipa | naturalog: the point of anomity is that within the set of potential sources, there is nothing that gives anything away | 17:06 |
| sipa | routing just obscures things; it doesn't make anything impossible | 17:06 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: I guess my issue with the phrase "anonymity" in this context is that most people will take it as an absolute rather than a scale. I've spoken to people who think that using their blockchain.info wallet through the onion router makes them immune to everything. | 17:06 |
| naturalog | sipa: ok and how does what i describe break cause of what you says? | 17:06 |
| naturalog | sipa: ok so whats possible when i dont need any reply? | 17:07 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, yeah the line about false positives being higher with bulk downloads suggests that throwing a bunch of noise at the problem might make a big difference | 17:07 |
| phantomcircuit | iirc you can send traffic to arbitrary nodes in the circuit, not just through the circuit to the end | 17:07 |
| sipa | naturalog: sorry, this doesn't lead anywhere | 17:07 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: if you do that then somebody can just flood out the fake noise floor and measure above that. | 17:08 |
| gmaxwell | naturalog: reply is totally orthorgonal, it doesn't help or harm. (reply paths are source routed backchannels in any case). | 17:08 |
| belcher | op_mul how do you query a node to see if the wallet contains an address? i didnt know that | 17:08 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, sure... but you could also just set the rate limiting up and then do constant bandwidth | 17:08 |
| phantomcircuit | (at this point that would be a fairly obvious signature though) | 17:08 |
| gmaxwell | naturalog: as I said, please take this to #bitcoin using tools like i2p or tor do _NOT_ make your bitcoin transactions magically "anonymous". | 17:09 |
| naturalog | gmaxwell: nothing happens magically, well, you may continue assuming i dont know what im talking about | 17:09 |
| op_mul | belcher: nodes that have a vested interest in a transaction will attempt to rebroadcast it. nodes that don't never will. you can make transaction forms which cause a node to reveal their wallet to you. | 17:09 |
| sipa | naturalog: please understand the distinction: i2p/tor/whatever make one part of the identity leak that bitcoin transactions cause harder - it doesn't do this absolutely, and it does not prevent other leaks | 17:10 |
| naturalog | sipa: thats obvious | 17:10 |
| sipa | naturalog: this is not a criticism on i2p; we're just arguing that bitcoin transaction are _not_ anonymous, and nothing can fix that | 17:11 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: I think then it's a DOS risk. | 17:11 |
| naturalog | sipa: and i claim it may bi fixed | 17:11 |
| belcher | i didnt know that, i thought bitcoin nodes rebroadcasted every tx | 17:11 |
| naturalog | be | 17:11 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, there's actually a lot of available relay bandwidth | 17:11 |
| sipa | naturalog: #bitcoin then please | 17:11 |
| phantomcircuit | there isn't a lot of exit bandwidth | 17:11 |
| op_mul | belcher: no, never unless you are interested in it. | 17:11 |
| op_mul | or you made the transaction. | 17:12 |
| belcher | does that mean a node needs to be connected directly to a miner if it wants it tx to be mined? since otherwise the tx wont be rebroadcast and eventually reach the miner | 17:12 |
| gmaxwell | op_mul: we do have some degree of protection there in that we won't accept into the wallet a transaction we wouldn't relay. so the attack of construct a transaction that'll never get mined and give it to a node to make it beacon, if you've identified the source, will not work. | 17:12 |
| gmaxwell | belcher: no. | 17:13 |
| gmaxwell | belcher: it'll be relayed by nodes that don't already have it in their mempools if its rebroadcast. | 17:13 |
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| op_mul | gmaxwell: indeed. it's expensive and noisy, probably. I've never tried it. would probably work better if you could island the node. | 17:14 |
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| gmaxwell | If anyone wants a my-first-bitcoin-core-patch project, a config setting (or even RPC) to suppress all transaction broadcast from the wallet, so that you can do your advertisement vis manual getrawtransaction -> alternative announcement method... would be such a thing. | 17:16 |
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| jgarzik | gmaxwell, need a patch-requests area somewhere public | 18:28 |
| sipa | ? | 18:28 |
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| sipa | ah | 18:28 |
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| sipa | yes! | 18:28 |
| jgarzik | a place to catalog areas where newbies could jump in | 18:29 |
| jgarzik | or medium-bies | 18:29 |
| jgarzik | specific requests, not vague "clean it up bleh" | 18:29 |
| jgarzik | if you wanna get fancy, let us upvote in a semi-decentralized manner by adding PGP-signed or ECDSA-signed +1's | 18:30 |
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| sipa | dude | 18:30 |
| sipa | let's vote with PoW | 18:30 |
| op_mul | a patch requests block chain? | 18:31 |
| sipa | votecoin | 18:31 |
| jgarzik | bootstrap a web of merit | 18:32 |
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| MRL-Relay | [othe] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=768499.0 i throw this in the round for your voting | 18:36 |
| op_mul | othe: would malleability in monero mean that anybody could spend an output as many times as they want? | 18:37 |
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| MRL-Relay | [othe] at least not as far as i can imagine, theres a section on djbs original paper "small subgroup attacks" or sth like that about malleability, but i would not be surprised if the code is somewhere else fucked up that allows some kind of malleability tho | 18:44 |
| MRL-Relay | [othe] that btctalk link is not based on any monero code, it could just be used for voting if you sign "yes" or "no" messages | 18:46 |
| op_mul | think I'll have to read up on how moneros transactions work, I think I'm misunderstanding how you prevent double spends. I thought it was something to do with a double spend revealing the signer if they signed the same output in more than one transaction. | 18:47 |
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| op_mul | sounds more confused in words than it did in my head. | 18:49 |
| MRL-Relay | [othe] it checks the key images for double spends, you can only use them once | 18:52 |
| atgreen | jgarzik: did you try rebuilding from scratch? | 18:54 |
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| jgarzik | atgreen, pull+scratch of toolchain seems to have fixed moxiebox tests | 19:09 |
| jgarzik | so all good | 19:09 |
| jgarzik | glad to be sync'd up again | 19:09 |
| jgarzik | I like the latest changes | 19:09 |
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| atgreen | jgarzik: just sent PR to add gdb support to moxiebox. https://github.com/jgarzik/moxiebox/pull/13 | 20:42 |
| jgarzik | atgreen, merged | 20:42 |
| atgreen | jgarzik: hmm.. don't see it. I see #12 merged, which is just some sim cleanups based on gdb sim. But not the actual GDB support. | 20:44 |
| jgarzik | atgreen, oh, nvm. I thought you meant the cosmetic PR. | 20:44 |
| jgarzik | atgreen, reviewing | 20:44 |
| atgreen | uh.. I just noticed that it will accept the -g option unconditionally. Let me fix that. | 20:47 |
| jgarzik | atgreen, can you move the big chunk of code in main() to a separate function | 20:50 |
| atgreen | hmmm | 20:50 |
| atgreen | ok | 20:51 |
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| atgreen | jgarzik: ok, done | 21:01 |
| jgarzik | atgreen, Thanks. fwiw, I don't like making it compile-time optional. I would rather just always build it, and default it to disabled at runtime. It requires no additional dependencies, and results in cleaner code that way. You don't have to worry about that if you don't want to, I can clean it up after merging. | 21:07 |
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| jgarzik | Heading to bed *poof* | 21:08 |
| atgreen | Ok, I'll let you clean that up. Thanks! | 21:08 |
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| atgreen | I can make the toolchain build script build gdb, and then also suggest some additions to the README | 21:09 |
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