| --- Log opened Mon Jan 05 00:00:13 2015 | ||
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:05 | |
| -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc | 00:08 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Quit: fanquake] | 00:14 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 00:20 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@c31-67.i07-8.onvol.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:29 | |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-189-223.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 00:38 | |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@77.126.119.193] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:39 | |
| -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:45 | |
| -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:68e8:3450:eb5d:8cdf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:47 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:118d:3cda:742b:32c7] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 00:51 | |
| -!- NewLiberty_ is now known as NewLiberty | 00:55 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:57 | |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@77.126.119.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 01:03 | |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:05 | |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:05 | |
| * andy-logbot is logging | 01:05 | |
| -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:09 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:15 | |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@77.126.119.193] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:16 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@83.162.194.88] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:17 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:68e8:3450:eb5d:8cdf] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 01:24 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:26 | |
| -!- Muis_ is now known as Muis | 01:27 | |
| -!- Muis [sid26074@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vfzdgkhjvsteddxi] has quit [Changing host] | 01:27 | |
| -!- Muis [sid26074@unaffiliated/muis] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:27 | |
| -!- Muis [sid26074@unaffiliated/muis] has quit [Changing host] | 01:27 | |
| -!- Muis [sid26074@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vfzdgkhjvsteddxi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:27 | |
| -!- adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:29 | |
| -!- op_mul [~op_mul@178.62.78.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:31 | |
| -!- adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:33 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 01:40 | |
| -!- wserd [5fd38811@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.95.211.136.17] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] | 01:54 | |
| -!- wserd [4a6c2052@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.74.108.32.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:01 | |
| -!- wserd [4a6c2052@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.74.108.32.82] has quit [Client Quit] | 02:02 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:07 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:08 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 02:09 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 02:12 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:15 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:16 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:17 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:26 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 02:30 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:60b6:b388:4453:fb39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:41 | |
| -!- op_mul [~op_mul@178.62.78.122] has quit [Quit: leaving] | 02:59 | |
| -!- iang [~iang@cpc3-lewi16-2-0-cust561.2-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:06 | |
| -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc | 03:15 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Quit: fanquake] | 03:18 | |
| -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc | 03:22 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@83.162.194.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:29 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@16.pool85-53-130.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 03:31 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@69.23.213.3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:36 | |
| -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: [d__d], Cory, hashtag, a5m0, e1782d11df4c9914, NikolaiToryzin, fluffypony, jgarzik, adam3us, PaulCapestany, (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) | 03:36 | |
| -!- morcos [~morcos@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:36 | |
| -!- fluffypony [~fluffypon@coreteam.monero.cc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:36 | |
| -!- fluffypony [~fluffypon@coreteam.monero.cc] has quit [Changing host] | 03:36 | |
| -!- fluffypony [~fluffypon@unaffiliated/fluffypony] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:36 | |
| -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-rqjqwwxpnhbalgtp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:36 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: iang, berndj | 03:37 | |
| -!- Keefe_ [~Keefe@unaffiliated/keefe] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:37 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:37 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] | 03:37 | |
| -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:37 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: adam3us | 03:37 | |
| -!- Netsplit over, joins: a5m0 | 03:37 | |
| -!- [d__d] [~d__d]@ec2-54-85-45-223.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:39 | |
| -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:40 | |
| -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:40 | |
| -!- iang [~iang@cpc3-lewi16-2-0-cust561.2-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: iang] | 04:10 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@207-237-190-41.c3-0.avec-ubr1.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 04:14 | |
| -!- austeritysucks [~AS@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:14 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.178.134] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:19 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:24 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 04:30 | |
| -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc | 04:47 | |
| -!- happycamper [~textual@104-96.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:48 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:54 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:56 | |
| -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:56 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@16.pool85-53-130.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:59 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 05:00 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@83.162.194.88] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:01 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:21 | |
| -!- NikolaiToryzin [~stqism@freebsd/user/stqism] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:24 | |
| -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-188-096-048-138.188.096.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:34 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:43 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:53 | |
| -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 05:53 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Quit: fanquake] | 06:07 | |
| -!- austeritysucks [~AS@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 06:11 | |
| -!- rfreeman_w [~rfreeman@gateway/tor-sasl/rfreemanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:12 | |
| -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:16 | |
| -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:28 | |
| -!- happycamper [~textual@104-96.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 06:28 | |
| -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@g225032188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:28 | |
| -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@g225032188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Changing host] | 06:28 | |
| -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:28 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Killed (orwell.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] | 06:28 | |
| -!- wallet421 is now known as wallet42 | 06:28 | |
| -!- LarsLarsen [~lars@50.161.197.33] has quit [Read error: No route to host] | 06:31 | |
| -!- MoALTz [~no@user-46-112-49-198.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 06:33 | |
| -!- iang [~iang@79.77.128.167] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:41 | |
| -!- MoALTz [~no@user-46-112-49-198.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:41 | |
| -!- iang [~iang@79.77.128.167] has quit [Client Quit] | 06:45 | |
| dgenr8 | [01/04 18:17:50] <gmaxwell> "You make your changes to a sidechain and then move things onto it" | 06:46 |
|---|---|---|
| dgenr8 | Things? Are you envisioning large chunks of BTC value permanently moving to a sidechain (and then another...)? | 06:46 |
| wumpus | doesn't have to be permanently, you, or someone else can move them back | 06:47 |
| -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] | 06:47 | |
| -!- yrashk [sid1568@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-crpyxlwxzqfdrfuu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:48 | |
| heath | hi yrashk | 06:49 |
| yrashk | hi heath | 06:50 |
| dgenr8 | understood, doesn't have to. it depends rather critically on when and if the desirable properties of the sidechain are added to the main chain | 06:50 |
| -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-aroeocvwhlocipbu] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 06:53 | |
| wumpus | as I understand it you could, for example, move a few bitcoins to the alternative chain, do some crazy transaction not possible on the main chain, and then move the result back | 06:54 |
| -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-xatkecesnirnckdt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:54 | |
| -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a63c0.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] | 06:56 | |
| dgenr8 | the context here is "sidechains as smooth upgrade mechanism". I'm just wondering what happens next. | 06:57 |
| -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:04 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:05 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 07:10 | |
| -!- treehug88 [~treehug88@static-96-239-100-47.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:13 | |
| -!- Meeh [~meeeeeeh@meeh.sigterm.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 07:14 | |
| -!- NeueWelt [~NeueWelt@115-239.197-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:15 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:16 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.29.97.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:17 | |
| -!- Meeh [~meeeeeeh@meeh.sigterm.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:21 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:22 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:23 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 07:27 | |
| -!- NeueWelt [~NeueWelt@115-239.197-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 07:31 | |
| -!- pavel_ [~paveljani@37-48-47-154.tmcz.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:34 | |
| -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc | 07:34 | |
| -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4354b720.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:35 | |
| -!- iang [~iang@79.77.128.167] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:36 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 07:36 | |
| -!- iang [~iang@79.77.128.167] has quit [Client Quit] | 07:37 | |
| -!- happycamper [~textual@104-96.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:39 | |
| -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 07:42 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:43 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@96-37-132-146.static.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:56 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:57 | |
| -!- pavel_ [~paveljani@37-48-47-154.tmcz.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] | 07:57 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 08:02 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:04 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 08:09 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@83.162.194.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 08:15 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@96-37-132-146.static.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 08:18 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@96-37-132-146.static.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:19 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:20 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:24 | |
| -!- austeritysucks [~AS@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:25 | |
| -!- austeritysucks [~AS@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Changing host] | 08:25 | |
| -!- austeritysucks [~AS@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:25 | |
| -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r190-133-110-122.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:27 | |
| -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r190-133-110-122.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] | 08:28 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.178.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 08:31 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:9:4680:dd0:703c:9878:8fb3:79fb] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 08:45 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f055081095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:52 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:58 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@2601:1:8a82:7f00:71a3:e149:8329:9c23] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:59 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:02 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:08 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host] | 09:08 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:08 | |
| -!- NewLiberty is now known as NewLiberty-afk | 09:08 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 09:13 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:14 | |
| -!- zooko` [~user@2601:1:8a82:7f00:71a3:e149:8329:9c23] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:26 | |
| -!- Hunger-- [hunger@proactivesec.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:26 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@2601:1:8a82:7f00:71a3:e149:8329:9c23] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] | 09:28 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162-245-22-162.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:28 | |
| -!- zooko` [~user@2601:1:8a82:7f00:71a3:e149:8329:9c23] has quit [Client Quit] | 09:28 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@2601:1:8a82:7f00:71a3:e149:8329:9c23] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:28 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:30 | |
| -!- NewLiberty-afk is now known as NewLiberty | 09:30 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@70.114.207.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] | 09:32 | |
| -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@d40a6497.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:34 | |
| -!- vmatekol_ [~vmatekole@f055236169.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:35 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:36 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f055081095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 09:38 | |
| -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:41 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 09:42 | |
| -!- Dizzle__ is now known as Dizzle | 09:42 | |
| -!- coiner [~linker@42.116.152.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:43 | |
| -!- benten [~benten@unaffiliated/benten] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:44 | |
| -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@d40a6497.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 09:48 | |
| -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@198.50.161.237] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:50 | |
| -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:54 | |
| -!- Starduster_ [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:55 | |
| -!- coutts [sid31766@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nsdfvmppcyarkjhw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 09:57 | |
| -!- hguux_ [sid17919@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iivkahhlywlsihyp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 09:58 | |
| -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 09:59 | |
| -!- coutts [sid31766@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-orzglfwmoczhzjub] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:00 | |
| -!- hguux_ [sid17919@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bcxexqyfccwaiqhx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:01 | |
| -!- xeb [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:01 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@16.pool85-53-130.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 10:03 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 10:07 | |
| -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-xatkecesnirnckdt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 10:09 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@2601:1:8a82:7f00:71a3:e149:8329:9c23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:11 | |
| -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-zstplnugdmgelgen] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:11 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 10:11 | |
| -!- gavink [uid60113@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zesecevohuyezuol] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:11 | |
| -!- artifexd [sid28611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yqnwrzjgrtscxkwp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:12 | |
| -!- jbenet [sid17552@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tbyvngimdvhmkjrj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:12 | |
| -!- kumavis [sid13576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bzeoxoeuoyyxejwx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:12 | |
| -!- michagogo [uid14316@wikia/Michagogo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:12 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:12 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:12 | |
| -!- cfields [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:12 | |
| -!- gavink [uid60113@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qjrinqmkjdqmrmkg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:12 | |
| -!- lnovy [~lnovy@2002:4d57:f055::1] has quit [Quit: Got root?] | 10:13 | |
| -!- rasengan [rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 10:13 | |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@63.120-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [] | 10:14 | |
| -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 10:14 | |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@63.120-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:14 | |
| -!- btc__ [sid40798@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-arzioykpljuqttcb] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 10:15 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:15 | |
| -!- rasengan [rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:16 | |
| -!- jbenet_ [sid17552@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:16 | |
| -!- jbenet_ [sid17552@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session] has quit [Changing host] | 10:16 | |
| -!- jbenet_ [sid17552@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xpvbxmkgixfikgry] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:16 | |
| -!- btc__ [sid40798@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jtvwxsvardozkumh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:16 | |
| -!- nsh [~lol@2001:41d0:8:c2da::1337] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:16 | |
| -!- cfields [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:16 | |
| -!- zz_lnovy [~lnovy@2002:4d57:f055::1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:17 | |
| -!- artifexd_ [sid28611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-idnxfycymefiigrj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:17 | |
| -!- zz_lnovy is now known as lnovy | 10:17 | |
| -!- michagogo [uid14316@wikia/Michagogo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:17 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@16.pool85-53-130.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:18 | |
| -!- Muis [sid26074@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vfzdgkhjvsteddxi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 10:19 | |
| -!- kumavis [sid13576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qnxonpzhrjsxfppk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:19 | |
| -!- Muis [sid26074@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-olqnwiuuvgddutuc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:19 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:22 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:23 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 10:23 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:23 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:25 | |
| -!- benten [~benten@unaffiliated/benten] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 10:33 | |
| -!- LarsLarsen [~lars@50.161.197.33] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:44 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:60b6:b388:4453:fb39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:49 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:60b6:b388:4453:fb39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:50 | |
| -!- adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 10:56 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-161-92.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:59 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-161-92.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:00 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:09 | |
| -!- adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:10 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:20 | |
| -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-rqjqwwxpnhbalgtp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 11:24 | |
| -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [~e1782d11d@193.138.219.233] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:25 | |
| -!- Tjopper [~Jop@dhcp-077-249-237-229.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:27 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:29 | |
| -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@198.50.161.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 11:33 | |
| -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@198.50.161.237] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:35 | |
| -!- Starduster_ [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 11:42 | |
| roasbeef_ | re btcd: davec's formal response: https://blog.conformal.com/the-bitcoin-consensus-red-herring/ | 11:43 |
| -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:43 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:44 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 11:44 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:44 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:44 | |
| -!- digitalmagus8 [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [] | 11:46 | |
| -!- xeb [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 11:47 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.177.24] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:52 | |
| -!- coiner [~linker@42.116.152.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 11:56 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:57 | |
| -!- coiner [~linker@42.116.152.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:57 | |
| -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [~e1782d11d@193.138.219.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 11:57 | |
| -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ebwetkxcuslnqwkh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:00 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:00 | |
| @gmaxwell | roasbeef_: too bad it repeats the misinformation "if there is any doubt about this, see the March 2013 fork that already happened" example. :( | 12:03 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 12:05 | |
| -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:07 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 12:07 | |
| -!- Dizzle__ is now known as Dizzle | 12:08 | |
| -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-zstplnugdmgelgen] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 12:13 | |
| -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-cayknyiwttwephdn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:16 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:20 | |
| -!- iang [~iang@cpc3-lewi16-2-0-cust561.2-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:23 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 12:24 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] | 12:30 | |
| -!- Quanttek_ [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:b3c:833:b74d:88f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:30 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:32 | |
| -!- eslbaer [~eslbaer@p57BCEBC9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:32 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 12:36 | |
| -!- harrigan [~harrigan@skynet.skynet.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 12:44 | |
| tacotime | well, the march 2013 was a legitimate hard fork. it was just caused by software used by but not written by bitcoin core. | 12:46 |
| -!- harrigan [~harrigan@skynet.skynet.ie] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:46 | |
| pigeons | i think he means but it wasnt caused by a new version of bitcoin core | 12:47 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:48 | |
| tacotime | wasn't it 0.7.x and 0.8.0 that swapped from berkeley to leveldb? and that was what the fork was between? | 12:49 |
| roasbeef_ | hmm yeah it was a series of events that caused an old version to be inconsistent with itself | 12:49 |
| @gmaxwell | No. | 12:49 |
| pigeons | i think the distinction is it was caused by mining pool changing max block size | 12:49 |
| @gmaxwell | tacotime: 0.7 forked with _itself_. | 12:49 |
| -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@198.50.161.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 12:50 | |
| gwillen | gmaxwell: to be fair I don't think anybody realized that at the time, did they? | 12:50 |
| gwillen | I feel like the potential for 0.7 to fork against itself was realized after the fact | 12:50 |
| gwillen | and it's harder to trigger than 0.7 versus 0.8 | 12:50 |
| @gmaxwell | (and also with 0.8, ... we'd initially thought it was pre-0.8 vs 0.8; but that wasn't so, it was some fraction of 0.7 nodes vs everything else, including other copies of the same version) | 12:50 |
| * gwillen nods | 12:50 | |
| @gmaxwell | gwillen: no not harder to trigger it's exactly what was being triggered. | 12:51 |
| tacotime | gmaxwell: ah. in that case, the running of multiple daemons would have been beneficial to any service provider then, though i guess you would have trouble figuring out what fork to continue on. i guess in the case of versioning forks you should just immediately drop all services. | 12:51 |
| gwillen | the author of that article probably heard the same stuff I did, then, which was initial reports that it was about 0.8 | 12:51 |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:51 | |
| gwillen | and then not any followups | 12:51 |
| @gmaxwell | Pre-0.8 would reject some valid blocks, non-determinstically based on their locally specific history. | 12:51 |
| @gmaxwell | gwillen: yea, I just said it was too bad, and that it was just a repeat of misinformation. | 12:52 |
| * gwillen nods | 12:52 | |
| @gmaxwell | tacotime: as far as running multiple copies. Not a single miner does this now, at least not that I have any evidence of. Eligius used to, but I believe it doesn't anymore. It's incredibly costly and promotes centeralization of mining to the extent that it is done. It's a tool in the belt, sure, but not at all a good one. | 12:53 |
| tacotime | i guess we were lucky that 0.8.0 w/ leveldb had the correct behaviour and that this never happened in the past. | 12:54 |
| tacotime | why is it so costly? | 12:54 |
| @gmaxwell | (and it isn't just an N fold increase in cost, it's worse... e.g. right now to run all the full nodes that I'm aware of which have a chance of keeping up with the network you need on the order of a half a terrabyte of storage; as not all are equally efficient) | 12:54 |
| @gmaxwell | tacotime: we're already precipitiously losing full nodes; and it's very hard to get miners to run things like p2pool in part because of the cost of running a full node. And then you suggest they ought to run N of them, some of which requiring hundreds of gigs of space? | 12:55 |
| roasbeef_ | half a TB? guessing you're factoring in toshi with its 300GB? | 12:55 |
| @gmaxwell | tacotime: it never happened in the past because the event was triggered by manual reconfiguration. (Mike Hearn extolling slush change their config to up the maximum blocksize they create) | 12:55 |
| tacotime | well; maybe just the last two or three versions. and the older versions i don't think need outgoing traffic even, just to verify that everyone is stuck on the same HEAD | 12:56 |
| @gmaxwell | roasbeef_: yup. | 12:56 |
| tacotime | that's like maybe a grand worth of SSDs | 12:56 |
| @gmaxwell | roasbeef_: but you can get numbers just by saying e.g. all the commonly deployed bitcoin core versions. | 12:56 |
| tacotime | (I'm talking about bitcoin core, not alt impl. afaik btcd isn't used anywhere for mining, at least not yer) | 12:57 |
| @gmaxwell | tacotime: yea, so now your extra cost to mine is an extra $1000? Who's going to do that? Already getting people to run one node has shown itself to be hard. | 12:57 |
| tacotime | I mean, for the massive centralized pools. | 12:57 |
| -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:57 | |
| lechuga_ | running multiple nodes and verifying solutions with each of them doesnt seem scalable | 12:57 |
| @gmaxwell | They still won't. It's $1000 they don't have to spend. | 12:58 |
| tacotime | It makes no sense for them not to do that, because their loss of money if they mine wastefully on a fork may be much higher. | 12:58 |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 12:58 | |
| -!- Dizzle__ is now known as Dizzle | 12:58 | |
| @gmaxwell | tacotime: except they already can, and can for years, and the only one I'm aware of who ever has is Luke. | 12:58 |
| tacotime | Well... Maybe it's optimism. You'd expect security to be breathtaking at exchanges now too after mtgox. | 12:59 |
| @gmaxwell | You also get fun like being exposed to security vulnerabilties in old software, unless you isolate them from the network behind a new version, and if you do that, you may not see the consensus difference. :( | 12:59 |
| @gmaxwell | tacotime: And okay, lets assume somehow large pools are convinced that it's worth their cost to run those extra nodes; all that does is convince everyone else that they have to use these big pools. :( | 13:00 |
| tacotime | No argument there, but it's always been the case that there are a few huge centralizing pools. | 13:01 |
| lechuga_ | what if consenesus isn't reached w/the tested set | 13:02 |
| lechuga_ | consensus* | 13:02 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 13:02 | |
| tacotime | lechuga_: kill the mining daemon and wait. | 13:02 |
| smooth | this seems problematic if different pools use different sets | 13:02 |
| lechuga_ | what if people use different sets | 13:02 |
| lechuga_ | rigt | 13:02 |
| tacotime | at that point the major players in the network need to pick the fork. | 13:03 |
| tacotime | with monero we just picked the longest chain... but i guess it depends what the issue was. | 13:04 |
| tacotime | is this a 'vulnerability' in nonoutsourceable work schemes? difficulty keeping network consensus between versions/binaries? | 13:06 |
| lechuga_ | we see you love consensus protocols so we put a consensus protocol in your consensus protocol | 13:07 |
| tacotime | mm, maybe more like a small downside | 13:07 |
| tacotime | hah | 13:07 |
| -!- Quanttek_ is now known as Quanttek | 13:07 | |
| @gmaxwell | tacotime: it hasn't always been the case that; and there isn't a fundimental reason for it-- esp since we now know how to seperate pooling income and pooling the vote, which we didn't know in 2011. But saying you must run many daemons would make a stronger case for it. | 13:09 |
| @gmaxwell | in any case, no biggie but this is why I don't consider that approach a solution. | 13:10 |
| @gmaxwell | well part of it, the rest is-- what about everyone else. Say miners are running multiple versions and thus rejecting a chain that version X would reject. okay. Fine. But you're running something other than version X, and so now you're exposed to accepting a chain that many miners are going to reject, perhaps a perfectly valid one.. just because one weird old version you've never heard of has an i | 13:11 |
| @gmaxwell | ssue. | 13:11 |
| lechuga_ | may be stupid but i wonder if probabilistically relaying bad blocks could help. | 13:15 |
| lechuga_ | bad/rejected | 13:16 |
| @gmaxwell | lechuga_: it's against your own self interest though; since you're helping the network do something you reject. | 13:16 |
| lechuga_ | if you noticed a bad chain w/nearly the same cumm. work as the chain you accept maybe u decide to halt operations | 13:17 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:835:bc94:12bb:273f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:18 | |
| lechuga_ | im sure lots of DoS cases i havent considered | 13:19 |
| -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ebwetkxcuslnqwkh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 13:19 | |
| -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-vlcowledhnuwjvgw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:21 | |
| hearn | gmaxwell: er, was that an attempt to blame me for the fork? | 13:26 |
| -!- vmatekol_ [~vmatekole@f055236169.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 13:27 | |
| -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4354b720.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:28 | |
| Eliel | gmaxwell: I don't think miners are the ones for whom this suggestion is really the most beneficial. It's big businesses that use bitcoin. It'll help them automatically detect the situations when it could be risky to accept bitcoin transactions. | 13:28 |
| Eliel | and the businesses with most to lose are the ones that best can do this | 13:29 |
| @gmaxwell | hearn: Hm? no. It was just what tiggered the split to happen when it did and not at some other time. | 13:30 |
| -!- iang [~iang@cpc3-lewi16-2-0-cust561.2-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: iang] | 13:30 | |
| hearn | ok, sorry for being prickly then :) | 13:30 |
| Eliel | of course, if the consensus engine was modular enough to support different consensus modules all verifying the same database, it'd reduce the resources required. | 13:31 |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:31 | |
| @gmaxwell | Eliel: as the pre-0.8 self-inconsistency showed, in current designs the database is part of the consensus. | 13:32 |
| Eliel | yep, modular design would also allow for variability in databases which would give you more data. | 13:32 |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@16.pool85-53-130.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 13:33 | |
| Eliel | also, it'd open up the possibility of running the consensus engines yourself but outsourcing the database. | 13:34 |
| wumpus | as in, a deterministic bug in the database may become part of the consensus | 13:35 |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 13:35 | |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@77.126.119.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 13:36 | |
| Eliel | that's a very good argument for having different databases used and modular consensus engine implementations. | 13:36 |
| Eliel | because that means it'll be detectable | 13:36 |
| wumpus | possibly, although that brings back the problem of 'who is right?' | 13:37 |
| Eliel | I think the sensible choice to begin with is to run the other implementations purely for early warning purpose. | 13:38 |
| wumpus | but sure, it would be interesting to run bitcoind with another database backend and periodically compare the utxo set hashes | 13:38 |
| Eliel | I think the most interesting modularization would be to have them be completely separate processes and communicate with RPC calls. | 13:39 |
| @gmaxwell | Eliel: of course it's detectable, when the consensus is split, which is too late. :) | 13:39 |
| wumpus | then again, the winner would be the behavior of the deployed database | 13:39 |
| -!- rfreeman_w [~rfreeman@gateway/tor-sasl/rfreemanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:39 | |
| wumpus | Eliel: or a library, in our case | 13:40 |
| Eliel | gmaxwell: only if significant numbers of people are actually relying on different implementations primarily. | 13:41 |
| wumpus | and sure, you can always wrap a library in a RPC shim, if you want to execute the consensus code e.g. in a sandbox | 13:41 |
| -!- rfreeman_w [~rfreeman@gateway/tor-sasl/rfreemanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:41 | |
| Eliel | For the moment, I see most use for running several different versions and comparing their results being used for automatic failsafe systems. | 13:45 |
| -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@198.50.161.237] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:45 | |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@77.126.119.193] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:51 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-67-190-86-140.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:55 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:58 | |
| -!- zooko` [~user@2601:1:8a82:7f00:71a3:e149:8329:9c23] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:59 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-67-190-86-140.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 14:01 | |
| -!- Guest52336 [~Pan0ram1x@095-096-084-122.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 14:08 | |
| kanzure | "With an approach such as this, a miner could detect that, say Bitcoin Core 0.9.5 and btcd 0.9.0 consider the block valid, but Bitcoin Core 0.10.0 does not, or Bitcoin Core 0.9.5 and Bitcoin Core 0.10.0 consider the block valid, but btcd 0.9.0 does not. In any case, there is an extremely high probability that the 2 of the 3 which agree are right while the other one has a bug. As the number of community-blessed implementations you check ... | 14:09 |
| kanzure | ... against increases, the probability that a debilitating chain fork can occur decreases." | 14:10 |
| kanzure | wow this is a very very bad idea | 14:10 |
| kanzure | this is not a good way to decide which rules you would rather follow | 14:10 |
| kanzure | "if most implementations get the rules wrong, then choose the fork that gets the most wrong" | 14:11 |
| phantomcircuit | who... | 14:12 |
| phantomcircuit | who wrote that | 14:12 |
| kanzure | conformal | 14:12 |
| kanzure | https://blog.conformal.com/the-bitcoin-consensus-red-herring/ | 14:12 |
| -!- artifexd_ is now known as artifexd | 14:13 | |
| -!- Pan0ram1x [~Pan0ram1x@095-096-084-122.static.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:14 | |
| -!- Pan0ram1x is now known as Guest51744 | 14:14 | |
| phantomcircuit | "Every fully-validating node on the network must follow the exact same consensus rules or a fork will occur" -- only true for the wide definition of a fork | 14:15 |
| phantomcircuit | if the issue is non deterministic as the bdb fork was then it's actually not such an issue | 14:15 |
| phantomcircuit | the serious risk is from forks which can be intentionally triggered by a malicious miner | 14:15 |
| kanzure | you cannot make statements like "[out of your random choices of which clients to be running] there is an extremely high probability that the 2 of the 3 which agree are right while the other one has a bug" | 14:16 |
| -!- treehug88 [~treehug88@static-96-239-100-47.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] | 14:16 | |
| kanzure | i'm having trouble picking the best reason why, because the list is so long | 14:17 |
| @gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: even if something happens randomly, you can still exploit it. | 14:18 |
| -!- treehug88 [~treehug88@static-96-239-100-47.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:18 | |
| @gmaxwell | "Oh look, foo is rejecting the chain, lets mine a couple blocks for it to rob it blind." | 14:18 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, sure, but for the common case it's significantly harder | 14:18 |
| phantomcircuit | for coinbase and stuff not so much | 14:18 |
| kanzure | "What should be clear is that if you gracefully handle Bitcoin Core forking against itself, you also gracefully handle forking of alternative implementations" forking is absolutely necessary how does this person not swallow his own tongue? | 14:20 |
| kanzure | wait, is it commonly accepted that not having the highest chain is considered a fork | 14:21 |
| sipa | in march 2013 the fork was easy to resolve because reverting to an old version constituted a softfork, so could be done with just miner agreement | 14:24 |
| sipa | in case of a true incompatibility between two versions, you need to ask the whole split community to agree on which version to switch to | 14:24 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, at a very high level he's right, but in practice he's wrong | 14:25 |
| phantomcircuit | which i kind of difficult to argue for | 14:25 |
| -!- eslbaer [~eslbaer@p57BCEBC9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Bye] | 14:26 | |
| -!- ft_ [~user@unaffiliated/ft/x-1669099] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:32 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 14:33 | |
| -!- amiller [~socrates1@unaffiliated/socrates1024] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 14:33 | |
| -!- hollandais [~irenacob@li629-190.members.linode.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 14:34 | |
| -!- Guest8623 [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:37 | |
| -!- hollandais [~irenacob@li629-190.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:37 | |
| -!- happycamper [~textual@104-96.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 14:39 | |
| -!- treehug88 [~treehug88@static-96-239-100-47.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] | 14:44 | |
| -!- napedia [~napedia@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/napedia] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:49 | |
| -!- Adlai` [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:51 | |
| -!- adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 14:53 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:835:bc94:12bb:273f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:55 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:57 | |
| -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:03 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 15:04 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 15:04 | |
| midnightmagic | conformal is misrepresenting their work | 15:05 |
| -!- zooko` [~user@2601:1:8a82:7f00:71a3:e149:8329:9c23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:06 | |
| justanot1eruser | midnightmagic: how can you misrepresent a consensus reimplementation? | 15:06 |
| -!- ft_ [~user@unaffiliated/ft/x-1669099] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 15:07 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:10 | |
| midnightmagic | no, their work. btcd. for example, they shuffled a critical bus error bug under the rug, failed to report it to anybody, failed to report it correctly when called on it in public, and then davec himself demonstrated he didn't actually know what was going on that caused the critical bus error to begin with. | 15:11 |
| -!- harrigan [~harrigan@skynet.skynet.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 15:11 | |
| -!- faraka [835eba18@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.94.186.24] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:12 | |
| midnightmagic | so either their own consensus-breaking bugs are tracked internally and nobody is allowed to see them, or they aren't tracked at all. either way.. same effect to the outsiders. | 15:12 |
| go1111111 | have any wizards evaluated the 'stablecoins' proposal by Robert Sams? the TL;DR is that a cryptocurrency system has two internal currency units, and it attempts to keep one of them stable by automatically auctioning off one for the other as necessary | 15:12 |
| -!- harrigan [~harrigan@skynet.skynet.ie] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:13 | |
| -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc | 15:13 | |
| tacotime | go1111111: that's the premise of cunicula's two year old "Hop" project | 15:14 |
| -!- xeb [~xeb@92.40.249.124.threembb.co.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:15 | |
| -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:15 | |
| tacotime | and probably cunicula got it closer to correct if i had to guess, seeing as he's a professional economist | 15:15 |
| go1111111 | thanks, i'll check that out. | 15:16 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 15:17 | |
| tacotime | go1111111: http://www.scribd.com/doc/186071279/Hop-System-for-Store-of-USD-Value | 15:17 |
| tacotime | the weird thing was | 15:17 |
| tacotime | he disappeared soon after publishing this | 15:17 |
| -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 15:19 | |
| -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/profreid] has quit [Quit: Profreid] | 15:22 | |
| @gmaxwell | tacotime: thats probably one of the more content free docs I've seen in a while. (I'd not seen that one before, I'd seen cunicula's posts on it before though. I wasn't aware that he was an economist. I suppose it reflects my low opinion of most economists in that I'm not surprised. (A lot of his posts were borderline technobabble as far as I could tell.) | 15:24 |
| Eliel | tacotime: let's hope someone grabbed him and is having him develop this system. It sounds interesting :) | 15:26 |
| tacotime | gmaxwell: There was a whitepaper too, but it's disappeared from the internet | 15:26 |
| Eliel | although, it sounds like someone silenced him. | 15:26 |
| sipa | ... | 15:28 |
| @gmaxwell | lol | 15:28 |
| tacotime | wasn't there some guy called satoshi around once too? | 15:28 |
| tacotime | :P | 15:28 |
| @gmaxwell | he was silenced! | 15:28 |
| Eliel | does anyone know cunicula's real identity? | 15:29 |
| kanzure | "real identity" is a misnomer | 15:29 |
| Eliel | kanzure: I'm not intersted in debating that. | 15:29 |
| Eliel | you know what I mean | 15:29 |
| Eliel | ok, let me rephrase. Did cunicula take as good care of keeping who he is secret as satoshi did? | 15:31 |
| tacotime | as far as i can tell | 15:32 |
| tacotime | i think the nxt people are after him for the whitepaper he was supposed to write for them and never did | 15:32 |
| tacotime | or perhaps he decided that cryptocurrencies were all silly, sold his coins, and wandered off :P | 15:33 |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@63.120-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 15:34 | |
| -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:36 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.177.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 15:38 | |
| Eliel | ok, then silencing sounds unlikely :) | 15:43 |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:48 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 15:48 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@207-237-190-41.c3-0.avec-ubr1.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:48 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:48 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:53 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:59 | |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@63.120-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:00 | |
| -!- user7779078 [~user77790@pool-173-68-22-23.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:06 | |
| -!- user7779078 [~user77790@pool-173-68-22-23.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 16:08 | |
| -!- user7779078 [~user77790@pool-173-68-22-23.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:08 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 16:13 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:16 | |
| -!- harrigan [~harrigan@skynet.skynet.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 16:21 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@96-37-132-146.static.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 16:22 | |
| -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:33 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 16:33 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 16:58 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Quit: relocating, bbiab] | 17:00 | |
| -!- siervo [uid49244@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mobzuwojkjiqogxu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:00 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:03 | |
| -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 17:04 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:07 | |
| -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 17:10 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:13 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:17 | |
| -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 17:33 | |
| -!- kerneloops [~tuomas@12.130.116.80] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:35 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:37 | |
| -!- askmike_ [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:39 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162-245-22-162.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 17:40 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:d16c:7131:bc2c:fb33] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:42 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 17:42 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:42 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@23-122-17-11.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:42 | |
| -!- askmike_ [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 17:43 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@2605:6000:1018:c04a:34aa:ab43:745b:9e10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:44 | |
| -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:47 | |
| -!- siervo [uid49244@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mobzuwojkjiqogxu] has quit [] | 17:53 | |
| -!- xeb [~xeb@92.40.249.124.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 17:58 | |
| -!- d1ggy_ [~d1ggy@dslb-092-076-019-066.092.076.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:07 | |
| -!- kerneloops [~tuomas@12.130.116.80] has quit [Quit: Feel...so...sleepy...ZZZzzz…] | 18:09 | |
| -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-188-096-048-138.188.096.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 18:11 | |
| -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.29.97.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 18:22 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:9:4680:dd0:8545:b0ff:ea6f:fce8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:27 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:30 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:32 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 18:33 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 18:37 | |
| -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [] | 18:49 | |
| -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:51 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:02 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 19:07 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:b3c:833:b74d:88f] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 19:17 | |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@2605:6000:1018:c04a:34aa:ab43:745b:9e10] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] | 19:17 | |
| -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-vlcowledhnuwjvgw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 19:17 | |
| -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [~e1782d11d@cpe-66-68-54-206.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:19 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:20 | |
| -!- todaystomorrow [~me@d114-78-96-116.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:28 | |
| -!- faraka [835eba18@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.94.186.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 19:29 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:43 | |
| -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@198.50.161.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 19:47 | |
| -!- op_mul [~op_mul@178.62.78.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:56 | |
| op_mul | midnightmagic: for whatever it's worth, I do run conformals crap (non public exposed) locally to compare it with bitcoind. I'm riding on the limits of my memory, but I am running a few versions of bitcoin core and btcd. | 19:57 |
| op_mul | I want to include coinbases insane Toshi full node as well, but I've not the disk space to be able to do comparisons with it just yet. | 19:59 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:02 | |
| op_mul | I find it *really* scary they they are pushing people to use their full node when it's quite obvious they are not open about their consensus bug/s. | 20:02 |
| lechuga_ | re: conformal? | 20:03 |
| op_mul | yes. | 20:03 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 20:06 | |
| justanotheruser | Are people surprised that something written in Go uses more memory? | 20:08 |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:08 | |
| justanotheruser | op_mul: it seems they are aware of their consensus bugs, they just want all miners to softfork so they only accept blocks that are valid by all full nodes that are popular | 20:09 |
| op_mul | heh, well. I wonder what triggered that post. | 20:11 |
| kanzure | a thread on bitcointak.org | 20:13 |
| kanzure | *bitcointalk.org | 20:13 |
| kanzure | and conversation in here from the other day | 20:13 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: their "probabilistically calculate consensus based on which clients fail or don't fail" is just a good way to converge on a set of rules that don't work at all | 20:14 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:14 | |
| op_mul | kanzure: yep, found it just after I said that. by "detect", do they mean they think miners should be running their own copies of heaps of nodes and comparing submissions? | 20:15 |
| kanzure | i interpreted his scheme as "run multiple nodes, collect their output, then pick the output that the most nodes gave you as the one to relay" | 20:16 |
| kanzure | i'm gonna go cry in a corner now | 20:16 |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 20:16 | |
| op_mul | it means running hacked up bitcoin nodes to do litmus tests on, otherwise you'd end up with a BIP50 situation where all the *parts* of a block are valid but together it fails on *some* systems. | 20:18 |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:18 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 20:18 | |
| op_mul | "Additionally, there are a myriad of techniques to reduce the burden such as the use of distributed super nodes of various blessed implementations which allow miners to check against without having to incur a lot of extra resource hits themselves." | 20:19 |
| op_mul | ah yes, centralised nodes which can control what you put in a block. that sounds smart. | 20:19 |
| kanzure | the one about "probability" was something like "pick your own set of node versions to run, then whichever result you get the most is the one you should relay to the network", but the problem is that the majority of your nodes can be broken | 20:20 |
| op_mul | if that happens you obviously just weren't running enough of them | 20:21 |
| -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:55a1:7dc3:5e43:2a1a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:22 | |
| kanzure | i dunno how much sarcasm you're intending | 20:22 |
| lechuga_ | while i dont agree with the alt solution portion i dont think the rest of the post was completely off-base | 20:22 |
| op_mul | thick like butter. it obviously doesn't scale. | 20:22 |
| -!- jps [~Jud@23-122-17-11.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: jps] | 20:22 | |
| lechuga_ | and it's unfortunate but i think that sentiment is lost due to fixation on the porposed solution | 20:23 |
| lechuga_ | proposed* | 20:23 |
| kanzure | the sentiment is wrong and broken | 20:23 |
| kanzure | "the red herring is only focusing on forking risk introduced by alternative implementations [and therefore we should introduce as many potentially broken consensus implementations as possible]" | 20:24 |
| kanzure | come on | 20:24 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:d16c:7131:bc2c:fb33] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 20:25 | |
| kanzure | i can only simultaneously maintain so many broken implementations at once | 20:25 |
| op_mul | I think that sort of thought devalues into "well I don't want my blocks to be invalid, I won't include any transactions to have the best chance" | 20:25 |
| -!- user7779078 [~user77790@pool-173-68-22-23.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 20:25 | |
| justanotheruser | I still don't understand the opposition to a single consensus implementation | 20:25 |
| kanzure | i believe the opposition boils down to "you're a control freak" | 20:25 |
| -!- jps [~Jud@23-122-17-11.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:26 | |
| justanotheruser | the arguments always is "it's centralized" | 20:26 |
| justanotheruser | yeah | 20:26 |
| -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:55a1:7dc3:5e43:2a1a] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 20:26 | |
| lechuga_ | but the same consensus implementation has been broken wrt a previous version of the same | 20:26 |
| kanzure | so? | 20:26 |
| justanotheruser | I don't see the problem with the centralization though. We have a centralized implementation of the genesis block, a centralized implementation of sha256 | 20:26 |
| justanotheruser | I guess sha256 doesn't count since it's part of the consensus | 20:27 |
| lechuga_ | there are a myriad of sha256 implementations | 20:27 |
| justanotheruser | lechuga_: there are a myriad of genesis block implementation | 20:27 |
| lechuga_ | also where does consensus affecting code begin/end | 20:27 |
| lechuga_ | is the line really that clear | 20:27 |
| justanotheruser | clearly not with the 0.7 - 0.8 fork | 20:27 |
| kanzure | lechuga_: just because consensus is difficult does not mean that creating new implementation attempts will fix the problem. if anything, it will increase the testing problem combinatorially. | 20:28 |
| lechuga_ | i think theres some truth to what davec wrote and it's handwavy to just mock him | 20:28 |
| kanzure | your argument so far has been lacking, though | 20:28 |
| nubbins` | fwiw pre-0.7 downloads the blockchain just fine | 20:28 |
| kanzure | i am not mocking him, i have presented exact arguments | 20:28 |
| justanotheruser | lechuga_: do you agree with him that miners should have consensus decided by the intersection of multiple consensus rulesets? | 20:29 |
| lechuga_ | no | 20:29 |
| lechuga_ | i told him to his face i didnt agree with that portion | 20:29 |
| justanotheruser | what do you agree with him on then? | 20:29 |
| lechuga_ | well to his irc face | 20:29 |
| justanotheruser | lol | 20:30 |
| lechuga_ | i agree with the sentiment i interpreted from the rest of his post | 20:30 |
| lechuga_ | which was basically "right now the solution to consensus breakage is to be really careful and hope" | 20:30 |
| kanzure | no that's not the sentiment | 20:30 |
| lechuga_ | how did u distill it | 20:31 |
| @gmaxwell | lechuga_: on multiple sha256 ... not really, most are just copies of the reference code-- shimmed into different apis, or outright mechnical reproductions, there is basically no degree of freedom in implementing it (beyond a decision to unroll the inner loop or not)... and it's relatively easy to be confident you have it right. And often going out and writing your own, without good cause is caus | 20:31 |
| @gmaxwell | e for concern, like with other cryptographic tools. (Not really aruging with you overall, just being a bit pedantic about sha256) | 20:31 |
| kanzure | "You can certainly debate which one has more or less forking risk, but the underlying fact that both carry forking risk is indisputable." | 20:31 |
| kanzure | he even specifically makes that text blue (i can't even imagine why he would choose to use font coloring, sigh) | 20:31 |
| kanzure | anyway, just because there's "forking risk" does not mean that you should create as many possibly forking implementations as possible -_- | 20:32 |
| justanotheruser | what fallacy is that? | 20:32 |
| @gmaxwell | lechuga_: Right now the general direction is extensive testing, on top of avoiding changes with consensus risk, on top of trying to keep the operative part of the network running consistent software. It is quite a bit more than hope, and thats basically an insulting way to put it; though I know no insult was intended. | 20:32 |
| lechuga_ | gmaxwell: nod all true and point taken | 20:32 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: i lost my fallacy decoder ring, sorry | 20:32 |
| -!- todays_tomorrow [~me@d114-78-96-116.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:33 | |
| justanotheruser | :( | 20:33 |
| lechuga_ | yes that wasnt a fair way to put it on my part and not really my intent | 20:33 |
| @gmaxwell | lechuga_: I think a reasonable long term goal is to get the consensus implementation into a state where all systems on the network can run a consensus algorithim which is formally provable to be identical. | 20:34 |
| justanotheruser | I think he does have some truth when he says miners should have multiple consensus implementations validating their block actually. We shouldn't be doubling the number of consensus implementations, but some mining pools may want to test the block on a bunch of different architectures. | 20:35 |
| lechuga_ | i think it's relevant to more than just miners | 20:35 |
| -!- todaystomorrow [~me@d114-78-96-116.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 20:36 | |
| @gmaxwell | I don't agree that miners should be doing that, generally. (other than perhaps monitoring) | 20:36 |
| lechuga_ | it isn't crazy to run a few lagged versions and if u detect differing results start paging people | 20:36 |
| justanotheruser | well I can be confident that if a block is valid on x86_64, it will be in the mainchain | 20:36 |
| justanotheruser | gmaxwell: why not? Unnecessary? | 20:37 |
| @gmaxwell | Because what do you do when you find a rejection? soft fork? that puts users who aren't running an ensemble validation at risk. (because the network surprisingly doesn't follow the path they thought it would as the subset of ensembling miners with a particular version in their set diverge the state) | 20:37 |
| kanzure | yes, and your ensemble composition can cause long-term degradation if you keep making decisions like that | 20:37 |
| kanzure | because popularity in your ensemble doesn't mean anything in particular | 20:37 |
| justanotheruser | You would have to softfork I guess. It is safe to guess that a block valid on SPARC and invalid on x86 isn't going to be a profitable block to mine on | 20:38 |
| @gmaxwell | And if it were considered a best practice it would be an additional conteralization pressure... since if a majority of miners have wacko-node-x in their ensemble and you don't, you'll be at increased risk... so its a race to the bottom on resource usage. | 20:39 |
| op_mul | lechuga_: I think it's crazy to suggest miners need to be doing it. I'm doing it and it's incredibly resource intensive. | 20:39 |
| -!- kerneloops [~tuomas@cpe-76-174-179-157.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:39 | |
| justanotheruser | obviously such a fork would need to be reported immediately too | 20:39 |
| op_mul | several hundred dollars worth of hardware just sitting around processing the same block like 6 times in a row. | 20:39 |
| op_mul | justanotheruser: well, it's set up to call me if there's a failure. I can act quickly based on that if the need arises. | 20:40 |
| @gmaxwell | But beyond saying they shouldn't, I think we'e also seen that they just won't. I worry about things like miners not validating anything at all. I had pretty rude argument on bct a couple months ago with a pool op who thought it was fine to start mining on a block without validating it. | 20:40 |
| justanotheruser | op_mul: and one of the consensus evaluators may be written in C++ and the other in JS/Ruby (toshi)... it will be slower and more resource intensive by more than a factor of 6 | 20:41 |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@16.pool85-53-130.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:41 | |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: discus fish, right? they lost a lot of money to that once. | 20:41 |
| kanzure | discus fish said that? | 20:41 |
| justanotheruser | gmaxwell: how does he create a block without validating it? | 20:41 |
| @gmaxwell | fortunately the extreme cost adversion that causes them to think that kind of crap is an okay thing to do (much less talk about in public) also keeps them from lifting a finger to modify the software. | 20:41 |
| justanotheruser | s/a block/work/ | 20:41 |
| op_mul | no, discus fish mine on top of the headers of other pools. | 20:41 |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: the argument wasn't actually with discus fish. Though they're known to have done that. | 20:42 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: insane. | 20:42 |
| @gmaxwell | justanotheruser: just ... don't validate. You can always produce another block, especially easy if it has no transactions. | 20:42 |
| lechuga_ | do any of them even support gbt yet | 20:42 |
| -!- todays_tomorrow [~me@d114-78-96-116.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 20:42 | |
| lechuga_ | last i checked the answer was still no | 20:43 |
| justanotheruser | I see, so they are just getting work from another pool? | 20:43 |
| kanzure | gmaxwell: can you double check my "anyway, just because there's "forking risk" does not mean that you should create as many possibly forking implementations as possible" line of reasoning? | 20:43 |
| @gmaxwell | lechuga_: a number of pools have, basically anything that runs luke's eloipool software has, since ... didn't have to do anything to make it work... Most of the well known ones have written their own software though, so ... no. | 20:43 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:43 | |
| -!- coiner [~linker@42.116.152.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 20:44 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 20:44 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:44 | |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: I agree with the line of reasoning generally. It's also not reasonable to compare the unlike risk sources. A completely novel implementation has thousands of places to be inconsistent, vs version to version differences which are much smaller. | 20:44 |
| @gmaxwell | justanotheruser: they don't have to get work (though discusfish was) ... you can just get a block from someone else, ignore the content, and produce the next header. | 20:45 |
| kanzure | so that other kind sounds like something like internal self-consistency or some sort of mirror/symmetry concept thing that i don't know the name for | 20:45 |
| kanzure | oh right, it's not just same-same version but also same-previous (a)symmetries, hrm | 20:46 |
| justanotheruser | Is the mining pool trusting someone to make a valid block much worse than all the miners trusting the pool to make a valid block | 20:46 |
| kanzure | and same-previous-vs-future blah. i can see why this is not obvious to others, but i can't say that's okay | 20:46 |
| justanotheruser | Either way, all the miners are getting their work from an authority | 20:46 |
| @gmaxwell | justanotheruser: the pool at least has a reputation. | 20:46 |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:46 | |
| justanotheruser | Are they getting the blocks from some random node, or someone the pool trusts? | 20:47 |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: the argument also sounds less strong (though perhaps it shouldn't be) when the bogus claim of an existance proof for a version to version incompatiblity. | 20:48 |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: er without the bogus claim* | 20:48 |
| kanzure | oh wait, what's bogus about that claim? | 20:48 |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] | 20:49 | |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: we've never had one, at least that we know about! we've only had the self-self inconsistency (all versions prior to 0.8), at least in released software. We've introduced cross version inconsistencies in git and found them though. | 20:49 |
| kanzure | oh | 20:50 |
| @gmaxwell | I probably should be more agressive about correcting that claim wrt 0.8. I haven't because the incorrect version of events teaches a reasonable lesson, unless you want to use it as a actual gauge of the risk of that particular failure mode... | 20:51 |
| kanzure | what about all the consensus bugs in bitcoin-ruby or something | 20:52 |
| kanzure | wouldn't that make a good exampe | 20:52 |
| kanzure | *example | 20:52 |
| @gmaxwell | Well it makes the opposite example to the one dave wanted there. | 20:52 |
| @gmaxwell | It's very easy to show complete reimplementations being inconsistent. | 20:52 |
| -!- MoALTz_ [~no@user-46-112-49-198.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:52 | |
| @gmaxwell | And we can show self-self inconsistencies (which the y | 20:53 |
| @gmaxwell | ensemble validation approach makes even riskier unless the ensemble is quite large and the failures have the right behavior) | 20:53 |
| @gmaxwell | But we cannot show version to version. The nearest we can do is see where they've existed as patches which got caught. And maybe from there try to extrapolate the risk. | 20:54 |
| kanzure | i am not sure he would be convinced by version-to-version | 20:55 |
| kanzure | i am not sure he would be convinced by version-to-version | 20:55 |
| kanzure | gah, i meant to add +incompatibility at the end | 20:55 |
| @gmaxwell | I guess one data point is that virtually no one runs the blocktester locally before submitting pull requests, so we'd have public evidence if people were frequently breaking the consensus with their patches in currently detectable ways. | 20:55 |
| -!- MoALTz [~no@user-46-112-49-198.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 20:56 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@23-122-17-11.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: jps] | 20:56 | |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: well he claims that 0.8 was a version to version change. Though this isn't true. It's basically arguing that alt_implementation is equivilently dangerious as an arbritary new version. | 20:56 |
| @gmaxwell | And I think it's very very easy to show that to be untrue by looking at the history of alt implementations vs new versions of bitcoin. | 20:57 |
| kanzure | btw, for whatever it may be worth, i think pitching directly the verifiable implementation plan is probably quicker rather than attempting to convince people about dangerous incompatibilities (which for whatever reason is non-obvious to people who tend to not be me) | 20:58 |
| @gmaxwell | Self-self may be a better point; but self-self risk is, I think, made worse by the ensemble verification approach. | 20:58 |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: I agree. You haven't seen me out telling anyone in public about this, except other implementers. It's just basically impossible to get joe-user to have any notion of any of this. | 20:58 |
| @gmaxwell | And so you see bitcoin core working to cordon off the consensus code. We've been expiremnting with moving it into a simple virtual machine too. But of course, we have to do this stuff insanely slowly so that the work itself doesn't create unacceptable consensus risk. | 20:59 |
| kanzure | also: it would be fun to come up with a list of rules that need to be invalidated or removed from consensus that, individually, look benign but really cause disastrous centralization, as another sort of educational tool for implementers to ponder the epistemic consequences of | 21:00 |
| @gmaxwell | (Not just pitching the plan, but doing the work. Pitching the plan won't help, because it's not work anyone actually wants to do.) | 21:00 |
| kanzure | s/but really cause/but together really cause | 21:00 |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:01 | |
| kanzure | oh sure, actual work is much harder to find people for | 21:01 |
| @gmaxwell | well I think the bitcoin ruby checksig not issue is an elegant point. (also because bitcoinj had made a simmilar but more subtle error something like a year before) | 21:01 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:02 | |
| @gmaxwell | one of the bitcoin ruby consensus issues was that if a CHECKSIG operation failed it threw an exception and invalidated the trasaction. ... But there is nothing technically wrong with a transaction that CHECKSIGs and ignores the result: or even more fun, OP_CHECKSIG OP_NOT e.g. a must fail signature. | 21:02 |
| @gmaxwell | Bitcoinj's similar issue was that a signature with length zero (or some other similar kind of bad signature) would throw an exception and thus invalidate the transaction. | 21:03 |
| @gmaxwell | In the case of bitcoinj it was even third party code that threw the exception... so unless you went digging inside your system libraries you'd never realize this outcome was possible. | 21:04 |
| @gmaxwell | I think there is a belief that these risks come from not knowing what bitcoin core is doing; and thats certantly a source of risks (though I note, I don't believe btcd reported a single unknown behavior in bitcoin core; Matt reported quite a few. Perhaps thats evidence that there is less unknown behavior now)... but you don't need to have any ambiguity as to what bitcoin core is doing to have no | 21:07 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 21:07 | |
| @gmaxwell | idea what your own software is doing. Thats just the nature of programming today: there is so much abstraction that you really don't know what things are doing. | 21:07 |
| @gmaxwell | (see also the youtube link I pointed petertodd to in here recently, with the prank electronics) | 21:07 |
| kanzure | i saw that one, it was cute | 21:07 |
| gwillen | gmaxwell: was this the troll-circuit video, with troll-series and troll-parallel | 21:09 |
| @gmaxwell | anyone who's done much RF electronics has expirenced the issue that no component is pure; your caps have non-trivial inductance (as do your wires..) yadda yadda.. Its like that in software too. But most software is building things where these differences don't matter much. | 21:09 |
| @gmaxwell | gwillen: yes. | 21:09 |
| gwillen | I love that so much. | 21:09 |
| kanzure | gmaxwell: also this is fun and slightly related http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Murphy%20was%20an%20optimist%20-%20rare%20failure%20modes%20in%20Byzantine%20systems%20-%20Kevin%20R.%20Driscoll.pdf | 21:09 |
| -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 21:09 | |
| @gmaxwell | I _almost_ had it right what he was doing in three led one, I figured there was an RF generator, but I thought it was the battery... not the clip! | 21:10 |
| kanzure | me too; i may have seen a battery version in the past, though | 21:10 |
| @gmaxwell | well it's a classic gag to build "batteries" that put out high power RF so you can light up bulbs touching only one terminal. | 21:10 |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] | 21:12 | |
| gwillen | hah | 21:12 |
| kanzure | "So, when a designer says that the failure can’t happen, this means that it hasn’t been seen in less than 5,000 hours of observation" | 21:12 |
| kanzure | "We cannot rely on our experience-based intuition to determine whether a failure can happen within required probability limits" | 21:13 |
| gwillen | this reminds me of that article where a pilot is complaining about healthcare, and comparing their respective notions of 'rare enough to ignore' | 21:13 |
| kanzure | i should use this line of argtuing more often | 21:13 |
| gwillen | http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/05/how-mistakes-can-save-lives | 21:14 |
| -!- jps [~Jud@23-122-17-11.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:14 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@23-122-17-11.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 21:14 | |
| gwillen | he cites 1 in 20,000 anesthesia inductions becoming emergency situations, which is "rare" | 21:15 |
| @gmaxwell | did you see the recent "cardio emergency events have lower mortality when the cardio docs are off at convention" paper? | 21:15 |
| gwillen | versus engine failure being like 1 in 1,000,000 or better | 21:15 |
| kanzure | i saw the headline but not the paper | 21:15 |
| gwillen | gmaxwell: yeah, some lol there | 21:15 |
| gwillen | although a lot of potential confounding | 21:15 |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: was what it said on the tin more or less. | 21:15 |
| kanzure | is it possible that they are worse at recording data when they are not there | 21:15 |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: no, they seemed to control for that. | 21:16 |
| kanzure | damn | 21:16 |
| @gmaxwell | But they're not controlling for things like less expirenced (job hunting) people going to the conference. | 21:16 |
| gwillen | they tested something like 30-day outcomes for patients admitted while the conference was happening | 21:16 |
| -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:16 | |
| rusty | gmaxwell: Heh, I'd assume the opposite, since many conferences are actually junkets. | 21:17 |
| -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 21:17 | |
| gwillen | gmaxwell: the issue that seems most fundamental to me is "what if interventions cause people to die now, whereas conservative management causes them to die later" | 21:17 |
| gwillen | so the 30-day endpoint rewards doing nothing because the experts are all gone | 21:17 |
| @gmaxwell | rusty: often seems to be two groups, junket takers and people looking for jobs. | 21:17 |
| @gmaxwell | gwillen: but they also broke down by type, that seemed unlikely for the people going in with cardiac arrest! | 21:18 |
| @gmaxwell | (where doing nothing at all means they almost certantly will die) | 21:18 |
| @gmaxwell | but yes, looking at two years as well would be interesting. | 21:18 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: Well, junket takers increase with seniority, if conferences are seen as a perk. | 21:18 |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: in any case, all is not lost. I've found and fixed bugs that from a random chance failure perspective should have looked like 10^-18 events. For example, in some cases we're able to just exhaust inputs to test things... running 2^32 tests is no big deal in many cases now. | 21:26 |
| @gmaxwell | Though I do kind of fear that software may well remain an orgy of failure in most domains because the stakes just don't justify the extreme cost of making it reliable... not unless we get pratical quantum computers, in which case a lot more testing would be tractable. | 21:27 |
| op_mul | has anybody ever developed a fuzzer for bitcoin script? | 21:28 |
| op_mul | could be mildly interesting, I think. | 21:28 |
| op_mul | I know andytoshi did some static analysis a while back | 21:30 |
| @gmaxwell | Laughing at the retest OK in that slide deck. In a prior life at a network equipment vendor, I had encountered an OC192 interface with a hosed flipflop that would randomly flip one bit about 4000 bytes into any packet that went through it. ISIS (common internal routing protocol in service providers) uses padding in its heartbeats so padd upto the maximum link size, and also uses md5 auth. | 21:30 |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: Nothing anyone has released in a turn key way. It would be easier to do now that libconsensus exists. | 21:30 |
| @gmaxwell | You just need to have libconsensus shimmed up to take input from stdin and then AFL works. | 21:31 |
| -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:31 | |
| @gmaxwell | I wrote one for that but haven't done much with it because I've been spending most of my testing cycles on libsecp256k1 and 0.10rc1. | 21:31 |
| op_mul | I was thinking you could go more specific and actually do runs on bitcoin core and btcd at the same time | 21:31 |
| op_mul | not sure how plausible that is though | 21:32 |
| @gmaxwell | (cont interface story) so when a customer I worked with hit that bad interface, I figured out the actual problem, but looked up the history on the part, it had been returned 5 times by other operators, no-trouble-found, and sent back out in the field... just because basically no traffic uses large packets normally, and the repair shop tests didn't. | 21:33 |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: requires a lot of exposed state to do that usefully. | 21:33 |
| @gmaxwell | If that card had made its way into a network that didn't use ISIS it probably would have stayed there undetected for years, happily corrupting any large packets that went through it. | 21:36 |
| op_mul | when you say flip flop, are you talking a literal, discrete IC? | 21:37 |
| op_mul | sort of baffled as to how you would have narrowed it down to that if it was part of a larger component | 21:38 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, he's probably talking about a flipflop on an asic | 21:40 |
| phantomcircuit | which much have been hilariously "fun" to find | 21:40 |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: there was a wide parallel two packet buffer right on the inside of the phy (with a buffer external to it full of flipflops), virtually everything else in our hardware had per _link_ CRC protection (e.g. between each component). so after reproduction it was not so hard to narrow down where it was. | 21:40 |
| phantomcircuit | that sounds nice heh | 21:41 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: ah. | 21:42 |
| @gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: nice things about working on N-th generation designs, the earlier hardware didn't have the extensive error detection. | 21:43 |
| op_mul | see this is where your knowledge actually comes in handy. where on earth can I reuse experience with DMX based dimmers. | 21:45 |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:46 | |
| @gmaxwell | which was just awful in the field "this million dollar router isn't working right" "uhh. lets swap parts until it starts working right." (doubly so in devices that internally had distributed designs, so there were failure modes where the part that needed to be replaced seemed to have no relation to the things it was effecting: e.g. to avoid memory bandwidth bottlenecks incoming packets were celli | 21:46 |
| @gmaxwell | fied and sprayed across all linecards) | 21:46 |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: I dunno work with DMX taught me lots about the relative importance of termination. | 21:47 |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@77.126.119.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 21:49 | |
| op_mul | I got to watch people learn over and over again that plugging kilowatts of lights into a single dimmer output will cause it to ignite. | 21:49 |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@77.126.119.193] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:52 | |
| @gmaxwell | "back to the old variacs for you!" | 21:53 |
| -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:53 | |
| op_mul | pretty sure this dimmer was built in the early 80s and had about the technical sophistication of a toaster. when you ramped the channels up you could hear all the coins in it screaming and protesting. | 21:54 |
| op_mul | s/coins/coils | 21:55 |
| -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has quit [Client Quit] | 21:56 | |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: usually the dimmers are just big SCRs. produce so much emi that everything not bolted down vibrates a bit. :P | 21:57 |
| -!- kerneloops [~tuomas@cpe-76-174-179-157.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Feel...so...sleepy...ZZZzzz…] | 21:57 | |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: sounds about right. in this case somebody decided to design the building so that the dimmer board was at the top of a ladder above the stage floor. you could only work on it with one hand, because the other would have to be holding the ladder. | 21:58 |
| -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:59 | |
| op_mul | as far as I can remember it had no fuses, no breakers, if anybody went too crazy with the double adaptors things would just start melting. at one point I had to stop someone from plugging an electric floor heater into one of the sockets. | 21:59 |
| -!- Keefe_ is now known as Keefe | 22:00 | |
| -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has quit [Client Quit] | 22:00 | |
| @gmaxwell | hah would probably work fine on the heater, assuming that heater didn't overload it. :P A heater and a incandescent light ... same thing. | 22:01 |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: if you run across anything more like that presentation, please send to me. | 22:02 |
| -!- roidster [~chatzilla@96-41-48-194.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:02 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:02 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@207-237-190-41.c3-0.avec-ubr1.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 22:02 | |
| op_mul | I think most of the cans maxed out at 100W or so,the spots were arc lamps so they had to have their own power supplies isolated from everything else. | 22:03 |
| phantomcircuit | <op_mul> I got to watch people learn over and over again that plugging kilowatts of lights into a single dimmer output will cause it to ignite. | 22:03 |
| phantomcircuit | wat | 22:03 |
| phantomcircuit | who does that?? | 22:03 |
| op_mul | people with double adaptors who don't realise chaining them 5 deep is going to cause problems. | 22:05 |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 22:07 | |
| op_mul | getting back on the bitcoin topic for a moment; there was some talk last night that the bitstamp theft might have been a RNG issue, so I took the liberty of checking (it wasn't) | 22:10 |
| op_mul | in the process of that, it looks like some genius has written a new wallet which does a complete Sony with it's transactions. the EC nonce it uses is totally random (as far as I can tell), except it uses the same one for every signature in it's transaction. | 22:11 |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: another reason why using multicable/strand lighting cables is helpful (e.g. socapex)... | 22:11 |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: possible software design flaw might be reading randomness in only once per transaction. | 22:12 |
| op_mul | they've not leaked any keys because they don't ever reuse addresses. | 22:12 |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: ruse may be possible for an attacker to induce. (e.g. send them dust) | 22:12 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: I was thinking they might be forking to sign, and each thread gets the same RNG state. I think that's similar to the blockchain.info webworker bug. | 22:13 |
| @gmaxwell | forking to sign in one transaction though. ugh. signing is not that slow on anything which has multiple processors, the overhead of forking should dwarf even remotely competent signing code. | 22:13 |
| @gmaxwell | but yea, sure, even if was slower, someone might do that. | 22:14 |
| op_mul | here's a sample, anyway. http://webbtc.com/tx/5808f8e297759c47a0ef34fd884051e854c528a94c0e6c460bc4537c2e736bac | 22:14 |
| @gmaxwell | another possiblity is that its an implementation of detrandomized DSA that depends only on the message. | 22:14 |
| op_mul | that's scary. | 22:15 |
| @gmaxwell | or something like &privkey vs &privkey[0] | 22:16 |
| @gmaxwell | (e.g. address of the private key instead of the private key) | 22:16 |
| op_mul | the outputs come from some weird ass stuff too, like this. http://webbtc.com/tx/708e6efa39d626575b2f32e4fb32e5f390df1c0529d4cdab669530abb5e20994 | 22:16 |
| -!- yamamushi [~yamamushi@opentransactions/dev/yamamushi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:17 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@16.pool85-53-130.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 22:18 | |
| op_mul | seems more like it's someone messing around than a bug, then. | 22:19 |
| @gmaxwell | Want the private keys there? | 22:22 |
| op_mul | huh? | 22:22 |
| @gmaxwell | oh, read the wrong line. thought I'd found the discrete log of that nonce. | 22:23 |
| @gmaxwell | another possible failure mode: just passing the message hash as the nonce. | 22:23 |
| op_mul | I suspect you probably don't *want* to go looking for that sort of thing. | 22:25 |
| -!- austeritysucks [~AS@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 22:26 | |
| @gmaxwell | well I want to understand the failure mode in order to avoid it. | 22:26 |
| op_mul | having a test suite is a nice way to sidestep it completely | 22:29 |
| op_mul | this particular issue, that is. | 22:30 |
| @gmaxwell | maybe. Unclear. I could imagine testest that this would pass. | 22:30 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, more likely execve to a signing application | 22:30 |
| phantomcircuit | fun | 22:30 |
| op_mul | doesn't core have test vectors? if I was writing a wallet I'd be expecing to see byte for byte matches with core (now that it's RFC6979) | 22:31 |
| @gmaxwell | Yes, but they're at the wrong level. | 22:31 |
| -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] | 22:31 | |
| -!- MoALTz__ [~no@user-46-112-49-198.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:31 | |
| @gmaxwell | It tests the RFC6979 hmac, but you could mis-apply it (e.g. by not giving the private key as an input) | 22:31 |
| @gmaxwell | s/hmac/CSPRNG/ really | 22:32 |
| midnightmagic | op_mul: to trigger it you must specifically put it under strong memory pressures. Go itself can segfault. Apparently. | 22:33 |
| @gmaxwell | https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/crypto_tests.cpp#L251 | 22:33 |
| -!- MoALTz_ [~no@user-46-112-49-198.play-internet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 22:34 | |
| op_mul | "RIPEMD160 is considered to be safe" < oh no, you never ever ever write that | 22:34 |
| -!- GAit [~lnahum@enki.greenaddressit.p3.tiktalik.io] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:34 | |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, lolin | 22:34 |
| @gmaxwell | safe for what?! | 22:34 |
| phantomcircuit | "that cant happen!" | 22:34 |
| op_mul | that's the sort of thing that will get quoted in a snarky blog post eventually | 22:35 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, TestRIPEMD160("RIPEMD160 is considered to be safe", "a7d78608c7af8a8e728778e81576870734122b66"); | 22:35 |
| phantomcircuit | ha | 22:35 |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: ah there is full system tests in key_tests.cpp. | 22:36 |
| @gmaxwell | if anyone feels like making your first contribution to libsecp256k1, copying in those 6979 tests would be nice. | 22:38 |
| Taek | tempted to bite | 22:39 |
| Taek | could it be done in a weekend? | 22:40 |
| midnightmagic | which tests? | 22:40 |
| midnightmagic | you mean from the rfc? | 22:41 |
| @gmaxwell | Taek: it would only take sipa or I a few minutes; someone who was unfamilar with with bitcoin core and libsecp256k1 might spin for a couple hours. | 22:41 |
| @gmaxwell | midnightmagic: there aren't tests for the full system with secp256k1 in the RFC. But there are in bitcoin core. | 22:41 |
| @gmaxwell | the library has tests for the 6979 implementation, but no fixed tests of "this message,key should give this signature" | 22:42 |
| Taek | sounds reasonable enough to me. Can I expect it to be available still by this weekend? | 22:43 |
| @gmaxwell | I'm not planning on doing it right now. | 22:43 |
| -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:51 | |
| -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 22:54 | |
| -!- austeritysucks [~AS@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:56 | |
| -!- austeritysucks [~AS@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Changing host] | 22:56 | |
| -!- austeritysucks [~AS@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:56 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 22:58 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:02 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 23:07 | |
| -!- beamlaser [49cc4c7f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.204.76.127] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:12 | |
| -!- eslbaer [~eslbaer@p579E935E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:19 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 23:22 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:22 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:29 | |
| -!- benten [~benten@unaffiliated/benten] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:33 | |
| -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 23:34 | |
| -!- roidster [~chatzilla@96-41-48-194.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [SeaMonkey 2.22.1/20131113180422]] | 23:34 | |
| -!- eslbaer_ [~eslbaer@p579E9597.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:39 | |
| -!- eslbaer [~eslbaer@p579E935E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 23:40 | |
| -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc | 23:49 | |
| --- Log closed Tue Jan 06 00:00:14 2015 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!