2015-01-07.log

--- Log opened Wed Jan 07 00:00:05 2015
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gavinkanyone up for helping with a little experiment? just trying to do visualization of the tree of transaction from the bitstamp account, to see in real time as the money flows. I've got https://www.npmjs.com/package/bitcoin-tx-graph-visualizer running, but trying to figure out the best way to feed the raw hex transaction data05:03
gavinkor maybe you know of a good existing site that does this, I did see some visualization code, but it required a lot of dependencies, and server necessities05:03
op_mulwhat do you expect to gain exactly? this is more for #bitcoin, lets chat about it there.05:04
gavinkapologies wrong forum cheers05:06
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nshhm, k05:29
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morcosgmaxwell: still trying to understand your 'provable hash' techniques from yesterday on bitcion-dev, why doesn't the second method need pairing crypto? and what do you mean a cryptobreak just gives you sidechannel, what else could it give you?09:29
morcoss/doesn't/does/09:29
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@gmaxwellmorcos: Pairing cryptography is required because there is no known (to me, or I believe anyone) construct for a small unique signature using just a plain DH group, e.g. you cannot use ecdsa for this.   As far as what else? it could (but can't in this scheme) let you construct arbritary hash collisions, which would be pretty bad since you're encoding a scriptpubkey there.09:35
morcosare you getting rid of all the publishing channels somehow?  not just OP_RETURN?09:42
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@gmaxwellmorcos: this could be used for all outputs.09:43
@gmaxwellScriptsig is strictly less concerning, because a full verifying node technically does not need to _store_ anything for a signature.09:45
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phantomcircuithttps://twitter.com/nejc_kodric/status/55286124471440589111:01
phantomcircuitwat11:01
phantomcircuitthe fuck does that even mean11:01
op_mulwhat's interesting is that they claim they can't recover funds send to old deposit addresses.11:01
op_mulyou'd think they could try racing them if they still had control.11:02
phantomcircuitthey absolutely can11:02
op_multhey're not though.11:02
@gmaxwellwhy do you think they can? I had the impression they lost physical control of the hosts.11:05
@gmaxwell(not that I actually know anything material)11:05
phantomcircuitgmaxwell, i would expect they have a copy of the private keys somewhere11:05
op_mulgmaxwell: I'm not sure about that. the theft took many hours. if they'd lost control of the servers it doesn't seem likely they would have stuck around waiting.11:08
@gmaxwellI can't come up with any other reason why they wouldn't try racing for funds.11:09
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@gmaxwellIn particular they could probably get a couple miners to otherwise block spends of those addresses, so they'd frequently win.11:10
phantomcircuitgmaxwell, failure to understand that they can?11:10
phantomcircuitwho knows11:10
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kanzure.tw11:14
yoleauxWe are fully rebuilding our systems from the ground up so that customers can use @Bitstamp with full confidence and trust. (@nejc_kodric)11:14
phantomcircuiti hope he just means they're rebuilding the deployment system and not the code...11:16
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kanzurenah it'll be ready by lunch what's so hard about it11:17
kanzuremaybe they had a second implementation in progress from their last round of funding or something11:18
op_multhat sounds very dangerous. rushing something unfinished into production could cause them even more problems. they commented that they had their dup system running with dummy data, I doubt it's a different one than before. the delay could just be them trying to still find the hole.11:24
kanzureoh right, maybe they didn't have enough logging to find the hole, that would be awesome11:25
@gmaxwellI don't understand why bitstamp btc didn't skyrocket in value with a compromise at play though.11:27
@gmaxwelloh blonde moment, nevermind, if they were draining the wallet directly they wouldn't need to trade.11:27
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phantomcircuitgmaxwell, and if they had access to both they could have been selling swaps and making a profit on the price drop11:28
op_muleven the outgoing transactions to the theft address are weird. thy don't even take the entirety of the outputs.11:28
op_mulsome pay absolutely nuts fees (1BTC)11:28
phantomcircuitsomeone trying to be clever by adding larger fees11:28
@gmaxwellop_mul: did they just ignore dust?11:28
op_mulgmaxwell: no, they made more. like they spend 500 BTC of outputs, and make a 0.1 BTC change11:29
phantomcircuitso then it was done manually11:29
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op_mulhttp://webbtc.com/tx/a32697f1796b7b87d953637ac827e11b84c6b0f9237cff793f329f877af50aea11:30
op_mulin that case, yeah sure it makes sense. they stole 3100 and left a little change11:30
op_multhe change address is a known bitstamp one first used on december 30.11:32
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op_mulhttp://webbtc.com/tx/82fd6fdcc09627414faad2b9c24500ed8ddeb284b6727e4faa5a666d0628236911:32
@gmaxwellwell you probably end up with a fee error just trying to send it all using a normal wallet... so you hurry up and lower the amount by 0.1 btc11:32
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op_mulhere they take a totally odd number though, but again leave about 0.01 BTC to change11:33
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op_mulgmaxwell: I don't think it was a bitcoin core wallet. core doesn't reuse change addresses, this does.11:34
@gmaxwellit'll be halarious when its realized the theif put the funds in bc.i and bc.i was able to claw them all back.11:35
phantomcircuitop_mul, iirc someone said bitstamp managed to push ~3k coins into cold storage11:36
phantomcircuitbut maybe that's nonsense11:36
op_mulphantomcircuit: I don't think so. 23bff6715c450f2af6f56a42862ac5006eb6037fbee549c5820ddaf2afca7e5d was a transaction going to the bitstamp hot wallet which got swept by the theif again (0.15 BTC fee). I've got about 10 transactions in a row that the theif spent.11:38
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op_multhere's a couple of spends to other addresses which I can't identify, that could be it. there's maybe 10-20 BTC.11:41
op_mulphantomcircuit: oh interesting, they did catch one or two11:42
op_mulbb52c6c8041c1110bceb6a2afa5d387c1a180e833a435fea81da8c4c2ef34964 spends from the hot wallet to 1JoktQJhCzuCQkt3GnQ8Xddcq4mUgNyXEa, which is the "cold" address they have.11:43
op_multhat's 1 BTC though.11:43
phantomcircuitthere seems to be a risk mitigation problem with exchanges11:44
phantomcircuitanybody running an exchange is inherently willing to take on substantial risk11:45
phantomcircuitseems a bit axiomatic11:45
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op_mulphantomcircuit: oh found it, yes bitstamp *did* rescue some!11:47
op_mulphantomcircuit: 2700 BTC.11:47
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kanzurethey should generate unsigned transactions every morning (or whenever) to safely transition BTC to backup wallets11:51
kanzureand then in an emergency sign those11:51
phantomcircuitkanzure, they should generate and sign those transactions and simply not broadcast them11:52
kanzurethe downside is that the backup wallets have to be even better protected (and if your private keys were offline in the first place, then you have a bigger problem on your hands i guess)11:52
kanzurenot broadcast them?11:52
kanzureoh right11:52
phantomcircuit"big red button" sends them11:52
kanzureagreed11:52
phantomcircuitbut there's a huge amount of security engineering that can be done11:53
kanzurecould also be a dead man's switch11:53
phantomcircuitit's not clear where the line is on what makes sense11:53
kanzurethey called it "an excess of caution" but i'd rather go with "an abundance of caution"11:53
op_mulhaving 18,000 BTC in your hot wallet is sort of nuts11:53
kanzuredo they have 18k BTC/hour turnover or something?11:54
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phantomcircuitop_mul, that's hard to judge without daily average turn over numbers11:55
phantomcircuitit's entirely plausible that they turn over 10% of their total per day11:55
op_mulphantomcircuit: I can tell you looking at this that they don't11:55
phantomcircuiti suspect they turn over their bank account something like every 5-10 business days11:55
phantomcircuitop_mul, you have a guess at their daily average net turn over?11:56
op_mulI don't think so11:57
op_muljust going by the numbers though, they do a huge number of transactions but none of them are *huge*11:57
phantomcircuiti see...11:58
op_muleh, actually there's some pretty big ones further down. 200 BTC out, 550 in, 200 out, 200 in11:58
op_mulsomeone seems to like doing arbitrage with bitfinex.11:59
kanzurebitfinex is also doing a single address? -_-11:59
op_mulno? neither is bitstamp.11:59
kanzurehow are you identifying it then?12:00
op_mulmerges.12:00
kanzuremerges with what?12:00
op_multhemselves.12:00
kanzureif they are not reusing addresses then i don't see how you would know they are bitfinex addresses12:01
kanzureor bitstamp for that matter12:01
op_mulyou filter all transactions for coinjoin transactions. then you look at transactions which spend two unrelated outputs. you pair them together and call them A.12:01
phantomcircuitkanzure, it's relatively easy to identify exchange transactions because it's a reasonable assumption that two outputs spent in a transaction merge identities12:01
phantomcircuitbut only in the limited case of exchanges who are clearly not doing coinjoin12:01
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phantomcircuit(which is currently... all of them)12:02
op_mulall you need to do is find an entry point (usually someone talking about a withdrawl they made), and you can find the whole wallet just by branching back.12:02
kanzureoh, because they are not being careful about coin selection and privacy leaks, i see12:02
op_mulcareful doesn't really help you12:03
op_mulyou're going to merge your outputs sooner or later, and then I've nailed you.12:03
phantomcircuitkanzure, if you're not doing coinjoin and you're doing demand deposits/withdrawals12:03
phantomcircuitthen there is very little privacy12:03
phantomcircuit(read: none)12:03
kanzurethere is very little privacy if you merge your outputs, sure12:03
op_mul(dirty secret, everybody merges)12:04
phantomcircuiti actually had a proposal to avoid this but it's potentially nasty (and is actually kind of obvious)12:04
phantomcircuitsimply require multiple addresses be provided for each transfer out12:05
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op_mulI suspect I've got most coinhashing addresses marked just due to your coinbase outputs.12:05
op_mulcloudhashing, rather.12:05
phantomcircuitthen match outputs 1:1 to avoid merging12:05
kanzurephantomcircuit: how would multiple outputs be useful there?12:05
phantomcircuitop_mul, probably but be careful there's coinjoin stuff in there also12:05
op_mulphantomcircuit: I pre-filter for coinjoin.12:05
phantomcircuitiirc if you naively trace it shows we control something silly like 100k coins12:05
phantomcircuitop_mul, er how though?12:06
phantomcircuitkanzure, the recipient can link the outputs, but another observer cannot12:06
kanzurethe observer knows that you could sign for all those outputs12:06
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phantomcircuitkanzure, the outputs dont get merged.. at least not by you12:07
phantomcircuitprobably the recipient merges them12:07
op_mulphantomcircuit: depends how you mean coinjoin. I can detect a coinjoin with lots of inputs and like sized outputs (and some secret sauce), but I can't detect a manual one. it's possible that for you in particular I've got incorrect results.12:07
kanzurethat is a fun project12:07
phantomcircuitop_mul, then it's pretty likely you've got incorrect results since the inputs/outputs often include offsets to pay people12:07
op_mulkanzure: it's not. I'm out of disk space.12:08
phantomcircuitalso that's one reason why i suggested using power of two outputs for coinjoin transactions12:08
phantomcircuitbut that has the obvious downside of potentially serious utxo bloat12:08
op_mulnone of this scales, and I wasn't paying much attention to it when I wrote it.12:08
phantomcircuitop_mul, how much disk space are you using?12:09
op_muluh. it's horrible.12:09
op_mulmany hundreds of gigabytes.12:09
phantomcircuitshrug12:11
op_mulit's actually got to the point as well that it's taking me longer to process blocks than they are coming in12:11
kanzureop_mul: here have some more data http://archive.fart.website/archivebot/viewer/job/7i531 https://archive.org/download/archiveteam_archivebot_go_068/archiveteam_archivebot_go_068_archive.torrent12:11
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kanzurewell, you should be using an asynchronous queue for your extra processing, and then just scale parallelism for that asynchronous queue of extra stuff you're intending to do12:12
op_mulkanzure: I already have bitcointalk, it's updated in real time from the "recent posts" view.12:12
kanzuredo you have diffs of old posts?12:12
op_mulno. only new posts and posts which make edits when they're in the list of 100 newest.12:12
kanzurehm, so you at least are not overriding old versions with new edits, then12:13
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kanzureexcept for recently-made posts12:13
op_multo have diffs would mean I need to crawl the whole site endlessly, and there's a 1 request / second / IP limiter.12:13
kanzurethat's troubling12:13
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op_mulit's fine once you're up to date.12:14
phantomcircuitkanzure, 1 request/second makes sense for trolltalk12:14
fennthere's only ~500k pages so 5 days to crawl12:14
phantomcircuitiirc it only applies to non-static content12:14
fennhowever empirical data suggests its more like 2 months12:14
phantomcircuitfenn, a naive scraper will end up with a bunch of different formats for the same content12:15
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phantomcircuitwap2 content and what not12:15
fenni have no idea what that is12:15
op_mulfenn: er, it took a lot longer than that12:16
op_multhere's close to a million topics alone12:17
op_muland some topics have tens of thousands of pages12:17
fenn<@ivan-> we ran a crawl of it that started on 2014-04-03 and finished on 2014-06-2112:17
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fennthere may have been multiple nodes doing the crawl12:18
kanzureoh that's the guy that notified me of the libgen guy's death the other day12:19
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ryan-cgmaxwell: do you still have that ibm 4764 and did you ever get the dev kit for it?16:06
@gmaxwellryan-c: I do, and I've been unable to get a devkit, though I've only put a couple hours into trying. Actually I have two more of them now.16:07
ryan-cgmaxwell: Would you like me to inquire about the devkit for you? I know an IBM lifer.16:08
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@gmaxwellThat would be pretty awesome.16:09
ryan-cand by know, i mean that I'm marrying his daughter in a few months16:09
sipamaybe wait until you're married16:09
kanzure"what's a devkit between inlaws?"16:09
@gmaxwellhah16:09
kanzureyes16:09
ryan-clol16:09
@gmaxwellryan-c: my plan after the first failing attempt was to just contact ibm sales with my business hat on, but .. ugh sales.  At the moment I'm wating for that before I have a concrete reason to buy some immediately; so that I don't waste their time.16:11
@gmaxwellthey're pretty expensive when not found as mysterious surplus parts, about 10 grand.  Not an unreasonable cost for a business, but decidely outside of normal expirement parts pricing.16:12
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ryan-cI came across you complaining about not being to get a devkit when I was googling for information about what HSMs might support secp256k1 (someone asked me about it).16:13
ryan-cgmaxwell: why'd you say that pretty much everything other than the IBM ones were crap?16:13
@gmaxwellyea... HSM market sucks, supporting secp256k1 isn't the half of it.. if the HSM can't embed business logic then it's not really very useful.16:14
ryan-cgmaxwell: yeah, i agree about the business logic bit.16:14
ryan-ckinda pointless to protect the key from theft whilst allowing arbitrary operations to be done with it16:15
kanzureer, but nobody is proposing you hook up your HSM straight to the interwebs16:15
ryan-cespecially for cryptocurrency16:15
kanzurepresumably you have some authorization process before allowing a signature (absent some business logic stored on the hsm)16:15
@gmaxwellsure but if that was adequate you could just cut out the hsm and put your keys in that.16:15
ryan-ckanzure: if you want to allow automated signing based on some rules, the hsm provides little, if any, security benefit.16:16
kanzureah right, i keep forgetting the default assumption is automated signing16:16
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kanzuremy hsm use does not involve automatic signing16:16
ryan-cit maybe makes more sense where the things that you could do with the key could be undone, or where you don't want the sysadmin to steal the key.16:16
kanzureit's really strange, gmaxwell has brought this up in the past too, i wonder why i keep forgetting16:16
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phantomcircuitryan-c, you can rate limit those arbitrary operations which could be useful16:30
phantomcircuitbut substantially less useful than generic business logic16:31
ryan-cphantomcircuit: yeah16:31
kanzureif you have bitcoin blockchain validation stuff happening in the hsm, you could rate limit outgoing bitcoin transaction amounts, that would be cool16:31
phantomcircuit(that is effectively how intersango's hot wallet operated)16:31
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ryan-ckanzure: that would be "business logic"16:31
kanzurewhere did you put intersango's hot wallet?16:31
phantomcircuitseparate computer which received payment instructions and applied rate limiting16:31
kanzurehome network lan? :p16:32
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phantomcircuitkanzure, for a long time it was in my bedroom on a gentoo hardened box and instrumented to shutdown if anything weird was detected16:32
@gmaxwellit would be pretty straight forward to get an ibm cryptocard to do blockchain clocked value per time limits.16:32
phantomcircuit(pretty crap tastic hack which checked iptables counters)16:32
ryan-cI have some stuff I cooked up that runs on a raspberry pi that sends stuff over serial and lets code on the pi actually build the transaction (which must follow a defined policy)16:34
ryan-cIf I'm going to be super paranoid, I don't want to expose the network stack. :-P16:35
@gmaxwellrpi unreliability is annoying, also take care to not go through all that trouble and have a stupid timing attack vector.16:35
phantomcircuithttps://0bin.zertrin.org/paste/c37d7276dd833645a4403b9565da06f9f08b7589#yflkKzPJ6Dek4RybcHGul8NAuMeWmJy3BGNf188j5pY=16:36
ryan-cgmaxwell: If i were putting it into production, I would use a real computer.16:36
phantomcircuitany ideas why that wont relay?16:36
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@gmaxwellphantomcircuit: my node took it, put it in the mempool.16:37
phantomcircuithmm16:37
@gmaxwellthat node is on git master as of this am.16:37
@gmaxwellyou already have a conflict?16:38
phantomcircuitoh i see16:39
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phantomcircuitit's been 36 minutes16:39
phantomcircuitthe last block was btc guild16:39
phantomcircuiti bet they're running rules old enough that the op_return is non standard16:39
ryan-cgmaxwell: ugh, timing attacks, they ruin many things16:39
phantomcircuitgmaxwell, the rpi sdcard holder bends the sdcard16:39
phantomcircuiti went through a number of cards before i realized what was going on16:40
ryan-cI haven't had reliability issues with mine, fwiw16:40
phantomcircuitflexes is probabyl a better term16:40
ryan-ci had them in cases which don't have anything putting pressure on the sd card16:40
phantomcircuitryan-c, the sdcard holder on the rpi holds the edges of the card and applies pressure uniformly to the pins16:41
ryan-cI like the low profile microsd adapters16:41
@gmaxwellAnyone off the top of your head know of a solver that takes a large number of N-dimensional binary vectors, and a weight for each vector.   And finds a set of vectors that have a 1 in each dimension with minimum weight?16:41
phantomcircuitwhich causes the card to flex in the middle16:41
@gmaxwell(believe it or not that question is somewhat on-topic)16:41
ryan-cgmaxwell: like a constrain solver?16:42
ryan-cconstraint16:42
kanzuresounds like something a constraint solver would do16:42
kanzuredoh16:42
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TheSevenoh well, why do people still use raspberry pi's...16:42
@gmaxwellyes, its a constraint solver, but I was hoping for one optimized for this task. (I mean I could just use minion to do it, but I expect it would be slow)16:42
ryan-cTheSeven: I think the answer is "they're cheap". I was looking into the odroid-c1 recently, which looks pretty awesome16:43
TheSevenyes, I was thinking about that one (or possibly an olinuxino) as well16:43
sipagmaxwell: so per 'column' an OR over all the vectors should be one, while minimizing the sum?16:44
ryan-cabout the same price as an rpi too16:44
@gmaxwellsipa: yes.16:44
kanzuregmaxwell: i've been meaning to look into this one eventually http://www.gecode.org/16:44
sipai've used gecode16:44
kanzurehttp://www.gecode.org/doc-latest/reference/index.html16:44
@gmaxwellkanzure: yea, gecode usually requires a bunch of per task coding.16:44
kanzureah interesting16:45
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kanzurei was looking into gecode for parametric cad modeling reasons16:45
@gmaxwellsipa: what I'm doing is I have a kabazillion test vectors for libsecp256k1, and for each vector I have a bitmap of every outcome for every branch in the code. And I want to find the smallest set of test vectors that hits all of them. (so hopefully it will be small enough to just stick in tests.c)16:46
sipadoesn16:47
kanzurecould you do that by just looking at every line of code to decide how to hit those branches?16:47
sipadoesn't sound hard16:47
sipabut i have no clue about the performance16:47
@gmaxwellwell right, I'd also like to do this for several hundred million vectors input. :P16:48
@gmaxwellI suppose I can probably reduce it a lot with a preprocessing step.16:48
@gmaxwellkanzure: not to give the smallest set of tests.16:48
kanzureif you have 30% (unknown) redundancy that doesn't sound too bad16:49
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sipagmaxwell: define 'kabazillion' ?16:54
kanzureit is 1/1024 of kibizillion16:55
@gmaxwellsipa: several hundred million probably. I dunno maybe less, because I can eliminate duplicates. The upper bound is pretty high.16:55
sipapreprocession by removing all results that subsume some other result would be useful already16:56
sipa*are subsumed by16:56
@gmaxwellyea, that might make it small enough that I could just throw minion at it with no worry. Didn't think of doing that until I typed it out here.16:56
@gmaxwellwell must be subsumed and <= in size.16:57
sipa'size' ?16:57
@gmaxwellsipa: my tests are encoded signatures, and I'm trying to minimize the total size.16:57
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sipai just mean individual signatures, look at which branches they trigger16:58
@gmaxwell(with a variable length encoding; which is a win, since most cases can be triggered by small signatures.)16:58
@gmaxwellsipa: right and what I'm saying is that if one triggers a subset of the branches but it is also smaller, it may be in the optimal solution.16:59
sipasome signatures will trigger a superset of branches of a single other16:59
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sipaoh16:59
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DoubleIn100HrsI just got paid on 4 transactions!  Get in before the Ponzi is over!!!  http://cryptodouble.com/?ref=aZk0V18:14
sipanot here18:15
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roconnorhey sipa19:13
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 08 00:00:16 2015

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