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| fluffypony | has the validity of this ever been discussed: http://zerocharactersleft.blogspot.co.at/2014/10/zero-confirmation-bitcoin-transactions.html | 02:18 |
|---|---|---|
| @sipa | i don't see what it is trying to achieve | 02:24 |
| fluffypony | no idea, someone just mentioned it to me | 02:25 |
| fluffypony | doesn't seem very zero-conf | 02:26 |
| @sipa | it sounds like it is creating a refund transaction with an unconfirmed input... and then claims it is a solution to double spending? wtf | 02:26 |
| @sipa | oh i see, it just tries to explain the principle of building transactions that use unconfirmed inputs | 02:28 |
| @sipa | nothing new - but it only works for services that don't do more than send money back/further as a result of succesfull transactions | 02:29 |
| @sipa | satoshidice has used that technique for years, and the only result was their customers being hurt by double spending instead of them | 02:30 |
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| midnightmagic | for a while it was them | 03:08 |
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| roconnor | sipa: Can I argue that broken crypto design and how to avoid it is ontopic here? | 07:48 |
| @sipa | sure | 07:49 |
| @sipa | not serializing something for min/max looks broken, as it can collide with cases where min/max are specified? | 07:50 |
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| roconnor | to recap: https://github.com/openssh/openssh-portable/blob/master/kexgex.c#L72 is the function that hashes a bunch of data for the server to sign for authentation during one of the key exchange methods, specificall the one described in rfc 4419. | 07:50 |
| roconnor | In text it is | 07:51 |
| roconnor | H = hash(V_C || V_S || I_C || I_S || K_S || min || n || max || | 07:51 |
| roconnor | p || g || e || f || K) | 07:51 |
| roconnor | But there are actually two different methods described in rfc 4419 | 07:51 |
| roconnor | SSH_MSG_KEX_DH_GEX_REQUEST_OLD and SSH_MSG_KEX_DH_GEX_REQUEST | 07:51 |
| roconnor | using a different header distingishes them. | 07:51 |
| roconnor | and the difference is that the old method | 07:52 |
| roconnor | Instead of sending "min || n || max", the client only sends "n". In | 07:52 |
| roconnor | addition, the hash is calculated using only "n" instead of "min || n | 07:52 |
| roconnor | || max". | 07:52 |
| roconnor | so that means a hash H = hash(V_C || V_S || I_C || I_S || K_S || n || p || g || e || f || K) is used with the old method | 07:52 |
| roconnor | but, as you've pick up on, the header used to select between the old method and the new method isn't part of the data being hashed. | 07:53 |
| @sipa | ha | 07:53 |
| roconnor | So we can try to play a game where a MITM substituse the old protocol for the new protocol by changing the header | 07:53 |
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| roconnor | and tries to create a situation where he gets a signature for the old protocol from the server and gets the client to validate the same serialized data, but under a different interpretation | 07:54 |
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| roconnor | one where p, g, which are supposed to be a prime number for a field size and g is a generator of a large multipicative subgroup, are different values | 07:55 |
| roconnor | perhaps values where discrete logs are easy to compute because the multiplicative subgroup is small. | 07:56 |
| roconnor | anyhow, I tried for half an hour with a friend yesterday, but the conclusion was that there isnt' enough leway in the protocol to make this work. | 07:56 |
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| roconnor | Anyhow, even if it is fine; this doesn't really inspire confidence that it takes 30 minutes of understanding incidental details of serialization formats to believe the protocol is secure. | 07:58 |
| roconnor | If the serialization was different, if f and e were swapped, perhaps something might be possible. Probably not, but it would be easier. | 07:59 |
| @gmaxwell | TLS/SSL has had several bugs of this type too. There is some propostal (IIRC for TLS 1.3) to make the session keys basicaly hash a transcript of ALL the prior headers, because figuring out which ones were needed is apparently beyond human ability. | 07:59 |
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| roconnor | gmaxwell: hah, really? | 08:00 |
| roconnor | This was literly the first thing I looked at in OpenSSL and it was already suspicous. | 08:00 |
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| roconnor | Not to blame OpenSSL, it is rfc 4419 that is broken. | 08:01 |
| roconnor | er OpenSSH. | 08:01 |
| @gmaxwell | There was some ranty complaint I'd responded to recently that included an argument that Bitcoin was "bad" because it didn't have adequate ciphersuite agility. (which isn't really true but whatever). In my response I pointed out that it looked like agility is actually responsible for more security weaknesses than supporting bad ciphersuites. | 08:01 |
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| roconnor | My rule of thumb is, if you have an if statement in your data format parser and it is choosing a branch based on data that isn't in the data blob, you are going to have a bad time. | 08:03 |
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| roconnor | A bit of a problem is that some of these data formats don't have parsers, but if a parser would have such an if statement, you are still going to have a bad time, even if the parser doesn't exist. | 08:04 |
| @sipa | advantage to encryption algorithms (vs hashing): your decoding will fail in this case :) | 08:04 |
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| @gmaxwell | roconnor: in general these hashed things should also be application distinguished. Otherwise you get some genius user that reuses a key from one application in another; and you find out there there is a potential emulation where you can get the other application to act as a messages of doom signing oracle. | 08:06 |
| roconnor | Absolutely, though openssh appears to do a resonable job regarding that. | 08:07 |
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| @gmaxwell | so if that hash were keyed with "RFC4419.3.1" it likely would have been okay, even missing an important field. | 08:08 |
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| @gmaxwell | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=918018.0 "Bi-directional micropayment channels with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY" | 08:12 |
| roconnor | gotta go. ciao. | 08:12 |
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| Emcy_ | anyone know where/how gavin came up with the 20mb figure for new blocksize? | 09:54 |
| Emcy_ | arbitrary? | 09:54 |
| Emcy_ | from that post it seems like he spent a while showing that a few yrs old hardware can handle quite bigger blocks but we already knew that, really. The issue is bandwidth. | 09:56 |
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| Emcy_ | the issue of bandwidth seems to have been left almost as an after thought :/. I could tell you that 20mb blocks would preclude me running a node full time on the internet service i have right now today, let alone the future | 09:58 |
| @gmaxwell | Emcy_: I don't think we knew it in a strong sense, but we did assume it and would have been surprised otherwise. Back in 2013 I had a conversation with Gavin and a number of others at Bitcoin 2013 and I expressed the view that I think that kind of testing is a hard prereq to even having a discussion about the wisdom of doing anything; its simply to easy to do the test as an initial check to see w | 09:59 |
| @gmaxwell | here the wheels fall off. So, indeed, while it doesn't address the Important Issues; it's still a useful and interesting thing to do. | 09:59 |
| Emcy_ | sure, the tests have to be done | 10:00 |
| Emcy_ | its a good thing to show definitively what we expected to be the case | 10:00 |
| Emcy_ | im just worried he is still too dismissive of the bandwidth issue | 10:01 |
| Emcy_ | of that he bases his conclusions around an assumption of google fiber or something | 10:01 |
| Emcy_ | lots of people have data caps as low as 200gb/m. Mine is actually less (and it depends ont he time of day, which is also getting more common) | 10:02 |
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| Emcy_ | I AM FRETTING ABOUT IT | 10:12 |
| Emcy_ | ok im going to sleep | 10:12 |
| @gmaxwell | Probably of some interest here, OpenSSL bug Bignum squaring may produce incorrect results (CVE-2014-3570) has been de-embargoed. This bug was discovered as part of the development of libsecp256k1. I've comment some about it on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8857398 | 10:13 |
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| * nsh perks | 10:16 | |
| midnightmagic | gmaxwell, sipa: will you guys be re-adding the comparison testing back into libsecp256k1 now? | 10:18 |
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| @gmaxwell | probably not, actually. We're still doing high level (full system) comparison testing, just not unit (basic operation) level. We don't really have so much 1:1 matching of the basic operations anymore in any case. E.g. we don't need a generic bignum implementation anymore. | 10:21 |
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| midnightmagic | gmaxwell: is the testing that was pulled out available anywhere or could it be of use to a third-party ec library? | 10:33 |
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| @gmaxwell | it's in the git history. but it requires access to 'internals' do it's not easy to just use with things. | 10:36 |
| midnightmagic | ah, that's nice then. thank you, history is perfect. | 10:37 |
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| nsh | gmaxwell, what was the mistake in BN_sqr.c? | 10:41 |
| nsh | having trouble finding the fix in openssl's commits | 10:41 |
| nsh | (also trying to find out if libressl is affected) | 10:41 |
| @sipa | nsh: in crypto/bn/asm/x86_64-asm.c iirc | 10:42 |
| nsh | oh, ah | 10:42 |
| @sipa | in a macro with asm.code | 10:42 |
| @gmaxwell | nsh: almost certantly. | 10:42 |
| @gmaxwell | sipa: IIRC the C code was wrong too. no? | 10:42 |
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| @gmaxwell | (been a while, we threw this over to openssl months ago) | 10:42 |
| @sipa | yes | 10:43 |
| @gmaxwell | 10:42 < sipa> the C code was #if 0'd out, but yes | 10:43 |
| @sipa | it was #if 0'd out | 10:43 |
| @gmaxwell | Right, relevant for libressl perhaps. | 10:43 |
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| @gmaxwell | I'm really pretty proud of our testing in libsecp256k1; when redirected to OpenSSL in a blackbox-ish manner, it found a bug that had probablity p=2^-128 for 'random' inputs. This was part of what I was referring to in the 0.10 release nodes when I wrote "we have reason to believe that libsecp256k1 is better tested and more thoroughly reviewed than the implementation in OpenSSL". | 10:49 |
| nsh | hmm | 10:50 |
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| midnightmagic | well it is pretty neat. congratulations on finding a fundamental problem. | 10:55 |
| nsh | squaring a bit number looks very difficult | 10:56 |
| nsh | i wonder how much of that is an artifact of the x86 legacy and how much is just mathematics | 10:56 |
| nsh | you'd think it'd be easy to formally prove the correctness of a limbed squaring function | 10:57 |
| zooko | gmaxwell: nice work! | 10:57 |
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| nsh | but otoh i inhabit a wondrous fairy-tale land of theory and whimsy unsullied by having to make things, or worse, make them work | 10:59 |
| faraka | would it make sense to implement a zkp to audit exchange transactions? to the same end of peter todds auditing method for exchanges? | 10:59 |
| nsh | audit in what sense? | 10:59 |
| faraka | let's say i have a merkle chain of n items, is it possible to create a zero knowledge proof of the existence of a correct chain between hash 1 to n? | 11:00 |
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| nsh | hmmm | 11:03 |
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| nsh | strangely this came up at congress | 11:03 |
| faraka | link? | 11:06 |
| nsh | in discuss, which unfortunately i don't remember much detail of, sorry | 11:07 |
| nsh | but afaik, you can make produce a ZKP of a route-to-node in an authenticated data structure under some or other model | 11:08 |
| nsh | andytoshi or gmaxwell or petertodd would know infinitely more than me on the matter | 11:08 |
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| nsh | in the context of exchange settlements you just want to prove consistency, which is an easier problem in general | 11:09 |
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| ajweiss | did you guys happen upon a value that squared wrongly or was that found by auditing openssl? | 11:20 |
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| midnightmagic | ajweiss: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8857683 | 11:20 |
| @gmaxwell | ajweiss: it was a result of "greybox" testing, I suppose you could say. | 11:22 |
| @gmaxwell | Of course we've also audited OpenSSL, but there is only so deep someone who has a goal of something other than openssl is going to go into their optimized math code. :) | 11:22 |
| catlasshrugged | @kristovatlas: Updated SharedCoin advisory: Blockchain has claimed to fixed the privacy issue (not yet confirmed). http://t.co/XN0XGCxuFv | 11:23 |
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| ajweiss | low transition probability? | 11:26 |
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| @gmaxwell | ajweiss: numbers like 1111000000000000000001111111111111111111110000111100000000001111111 | 11:28 |
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| nsh | i wonder if it's possible/worthwhile to bitsquat bitcoin addresses | 11:42 |
| nsh | the checksum seems to be concerned with glyph-substitutions rather than bitflips | 11:43 |
| @gmaxwell | nsh: I believe I previously created an issue for bitcoin core to post-verify signed transactions against the reencoded input precisely due to that concern. | 11:44 |
| nsh | hmm | 11:45 |
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| @gmaxwell | e.g. take your signed txn, and reencode the addresses out of it. Verify the addresses and values against the inputs as far back up the stack as you can. | 11:52 |
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| * nsh nods | 11:54 | |
| ajweiss | interesting... it's a technique used for efficient testing of digital circuits... | 11:55 |
| tacotime | deanonymizing sharedcoin tx is kind of like shooting fish in a barrel | 12:03 |
| catlasshrugged | tacotime: how recently did you look at it? | 12:04 |
| tacotime | months ago, so maybe it's improved since then | 12:05 |
| catlasshrugged | it has *changed* since then, I can't speak to whether it's improved | 12:05 |
| tacotime | the problem with all centralized mixing services is that they could care less as to whether proper mixing is occurring so long as it simply appears to be occurring to the end user | 12:05 |
| tacotime | as long as people are using it, they get their 1-3% fee or whatever | 12:06 |
| catlasshrugged | tru dat | 12:06 |
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| DougieBot5000 | faraka: WRT zero-knowledge merkle chain, in theory a zk_SNARK constructed with the rules for validation of your chain could be used to verify that there exists a valid chain satisfying those properties | 12:54 |
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| DougieBot5000 | it may not be practical though, as I don't think zk-SNARKS are very efficient | 12:55 |
| DougieBot5000 | yet? | 12:55 |
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| @gmaxwell | 11:00 < faraka> let's say i have a merkle chain of n items, is it possible to create a zero knowledge proof of the existence of a correct chain between hash 1 to n? | 12:57 |
| @gmaxwell | what does "correct chain" mean? | 12:57 |
| @gmaxwell | If correct means "anything at all" then sure. Your proof is return true; :) | 12:58 |
| DougieBot5000 | I just took it to mean "satisfying some validation criterion" | 12:58 |
| DougieBot5000 | gmaxwell: aside from the obv implementation and practical issues with something like a zk-SNARK, is there any reason one could not be used to bootstrap clients for the initial chain download? | 12:59 |
| DougieBot5000 | either use a proof that X number of headers from the genesis are correct (the proof generator would need to download and verify them) or by directly specifying the UTXO set as an output | 13:00 |
| DougieBot5000 | in the first case, it might save some verification and lookups, but the clinet would still need to generate the UTXO set itself | 13:01 |
| DougieBot5000 | in the second case, it should be good to go (except for blocks newer than the proof generation time) | 13:01 |
| DougieBot5000 | am i missing something obvious? | 13:02 |
| @gmaxwell | The first case doesn't save much, but can be used to avoid some dos attacks. (e.g. wasting your time fetching a chain that isn't really best). We give a log-scaling snarkless ZKP for this in the sidechains whitepaper. | 13:04 |
| @gmaxwell | As far as the second, been suggested many times before, it's just infeasble currently. | 13:04 |
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| @gmaxwell | State of the art ZKP performance (which has only 80 bit security and requires trusted setup) has the prover evaluate its code with speed ~= 10Hz. | 13:05 |
| DougieBot5000 | Do you get any speedups by removing the need for zero-knowledge from the SNARK? Most of the papers i find on SNARKS are the ZK variety | 13:05 |
| DougieBot5000 | yeah, the trusted setup is a big sticking point | 13:06 |
| @gmaxwell | No. ZK is almost a "for free" side-effect of the proof being sublinear in the size of the execution transcript. | 13:06 |
| DougieBot5000 | i imagine though that simply having someone generate a proof only once a month or longer would be sufficient and amoritze the large proof generation cost somewhat | 13:06 |
| DougieBot5000 | well, amoritize is the wrong word there | 13:06 |
| DougieBot5000 | i see | 13:07 |
| DougieBot5000 | hmm, at 10HZ though, even a fraction of the chain would take forever to validate | 13:07 |
| @gmaxwell | (to put the 10Hz into context, state of the art ecdsa verification takes 183k cycles on x86_64 and x86_64 cycles are more powerful than the proof system cycles) | 13:07 |
| @gmaxwell | (though there are better ways to perform that particular operation, it's stupidly slow in any case) | 13:07 |
| @gmaxwell | DougieBot5000: yes, we could afford _insane_ proof costs, since we only need to do one (or a few; due to trusted setup) proofs for the whole world. But insane has limits. | 13:08 |
| DougieBot5000 | i see. Perhaps when we have 20+ years of chain history and better SNARK implementations, it may be feasible to roll some chunk of that into a snark proof | 13:09 |
| @gmaxwell | DougieBot5000: Yes, I think it's likely. There is nothing fundimental preventing this from being acceptably fast. | 13:09 |
| DougieBot5000 | What are the verification times like for the 80 bit state-of-the-art you mentioned? | 13:10 |
| DougieBot5000 | I seem to remember it being either constant time, or some small polynomial related to circuit size or something? | 13:10 |
| @gmaxwell | on the order of 10ms. So the system with has state of the art prover performance/scaling is slightly slower to verify because it must use an insanely constrained set of cryptographic parameters that make the verifier a bit slower. | 13:11 |
| DougieBot5000 | Thats not bad at all | 13:12 |
| DougieBot5000 | well, thanks for answering my questions gmaxwell, dont let me waste any more of your time | 13:12 |
| DougieBot5000 | a pleasure, as always | 13:12 |
| @gmaxwell | DougieBot5000: most of the things you've seen people write about are all based on the same underlying cryptosystem (GGPR'12), and have more or less the same benefits and weaknesses (super fast to verify, tractable to prove for small statements, trusted setup) | 13:12 |
| DougieBot5000 | any work on removing the trusted setup component? | 13:13 |
| DougieBot5000 | I try to keep up, but that Eli Ben-Sasson just keeps cranking out papers on it | 13:13 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, everytime i think i've come up with something novel i realize it's either already been designed or is only slightly different | 13:14 |
| phantomcircuit | heh | 13:14 |
| DougieBot5000 | yeah, same here | 13:15 |
| DougieBot5000 | i remember coming up with a blockchain compression idea a year or two ago | 13:15 |
| DougieBot5000 | not only was it not new, it was worse that what everyone else had come up with years before that | 13:15 |
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| @gmaxwell | Better than coming up with things that are so stupid no one has mentioned them at all. | 13:22 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, :) | 13:25 |
| zooko | Yeah. ☺ I know I'm on the right track when I'm inventing things that better thinkers have already invented, studied, and superceded. | 13:26 |
| ajweiss | "you know, for kids!" | 13:27 |
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| phantomcircuit | interesting observation, if a transaction has equal sized outputs coin selection picks the lowest index number | 15:07 |
| phantomcircuit | possibly that should be randomized | 15:07 |
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| phantomcircuit | case in point https://blockchain.info/tx/14f2680565ba651d89247e59befeae4c9ef5f140bc589acf059655e6c3bd75ff | 15:09 |
| @gmaxwell | hm? it does? | 15:14 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, appears to | 15:16 |
| @gmaxwell | if you would have asked I would have said I thought we randomly shuffled the inputs first. | 15:16 |
| phantomcircuit | oh actually | 15:16 |
| phantomcircuit | i wonder if im doing this to myself | 15:16 |
| phantomcircuit | yes i am foot gunning | 15:16 |
| phantomcircuit | nvm | 15:16 |
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| faraka | does anyone have a copy of the hop whitepaper by cunicula? | 15:29 |
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| @gmaxwell | op_mul: Oh hey, I think I may know why that crazy nonce reuser reuses nonces. Maybe they use a single random nonce per transaction. Doing so would make the signing for the second and later intputs about 100x faster. | 15:30 |
| @gmaxwell | op_mul: so if they're super slow HSM or something they might have decided this suicidal sounding optimization was a good idea and done it intentionally. | 15:31 |
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| op_mul | gmaxwell: I'm not sure I'd call that suicidal so long as you're keeping track of which keys use which nonces. at that point though you'd probably be getting off getting a less-shit HSM though. | 16:52 |
| op_mul | you also make it alarmingly obvious which transactions are yours. nobody else has that behaviour. part of the reason I think it's intentional is that the signer uses compressed points, if it was just a stupid Sony-level implementation they wouldn't be doing that. | 16:54 |
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| nanotube | BlueMatt, gmaxwell, do you want gribble here? can be easily arranged, once my server issues are solved. | 18:23 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jan 09 00:00:17 2015 | ||
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