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| atgreen | I just hacked moxiebox to optionally record basic block counts for use with gprof: http://ur1.ca/jevjn | 06:22 |
|---|---|---|
| atgreen | emitting call graph info should be easy as well. I'll submit patch tonight. | 06:22 |
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| wumpus | atgreen: nice! | 06:46 |
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| nsh | atgreen<plus><plus> | 06:59 |
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| kanzure | seems dangerous to ask exchanges to rely on a third party for listunspents | 11:07 |
| justanotheruser | welll, do you trust the third party the exchange is trusting with your money? Because they can pretty easily take it if they aren't verifying the utxo themselves :P | 11:11 |
| kanzure | and the transactin seems to be created by the remote server essentially | 11:11 |
| kanzure | https://medium.com/@bendavenport/no-sleep-till-multi-sig-7db367998bc7 | 11:11 |
| kanzure | bendavenport: they were okay with this? | 11:11 |
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| kanzure | justanotheruser: yeah, that's my understanding.. | 11:15 |
| kanzure | *transaction | 11:15 |
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| kanzure | justanotheruser: i suppose one possible defense is if the change address is not a value returned by the api. | 11:33 |
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| kanzure | hmm https://github.com/BitGo/BitGoJS/blob/3b72ab19f6620f4ab11c21ab7e326de020f4d340/src/wallet.js#L73 | 12:04 |
| kanzure | so the attack is: return one very large unspent for listunspents from the remote api, return hack custom change address, will receive everything 'cept whatever the original withdrawal was for | 12:06 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, they're trusting the remote server to give them valid change addresses? | 12:09 |
| phantomcircuit | wat | 12:09 |
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| phantomcircuit | that kind of defeats the purpose of an hd wallet... | 12:10 |
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| Eliel | phantomcircuit: well, at least it should be possible to verify the given address locally given that it's a deterministic process that creates them. | 14:03 |
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| op_mul | Eliel: I bet they don't verify it though. | 14:38 |
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| kanzure | op_mul: bitgojs does not seem to verify it. and i think they are using bitgojs (because what other clients do they have?). | 14:54 |
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| op_mul | kanzure: yes, that's not a new flaw either sadly. other people have made similar mistakes in their clients where change addresses aren't validated. | 14:56 |
| kanzure | go on? | 14:57 |
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| kanzure | where did other implementations fetch from? i mean there can't be that many ways to get this wrong. | 14:57 |
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| op_mul | I'm not going to disclose that. | 15:01 |
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| atgreen | jgarzik: just sent you the gprof PR for your consideration | 16:37 |
| jgarzik | atgreen, very nice :) | 16:38 |
| jgarzik | I need to write a few demo smart contract thingies with moxiebox | 16:39 |
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| nsh | any public notes on the moxiebox work? | 16:49 |
| @gmaxwell | nsh: there is a github. | 16:49 |
| @gmaxwell | nsh: https://github.com/jgarzik/moxiebox | 16:49 |
| nsh | it's like watching you guys whisper about the apollo project in arcane jargon | 16:49 |
| nsh | ty | 16:50 |
| nsh | what's a hand-built memory-map and whose hand builds it? | 16:50 |
| nsh | "From the sandbox's point of view, the application is running as an unpriv'd application with only the ability to access data within the hand-built memory map." | 16:51 |
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| nsh | moxiebox-gdb is pretty cool | 16:51 |
| nsh | i mean, to the extent that using gdb is pretty cool | 16:52 |
| nsh | so in a better than having no debugger at all sense | 16:52 |
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| atgreen | gdb is pretty capable these days. | 17:11 |
| @gmaxwell | <3 gdb except that it's not so hard to crash. | 17:12 |
| phantomcircuit | heh | 17:12 |
| atgreen | nsh: arcane talk... I'm completely new to bitcoin so most of what I read here is jargon | 17:13 |
| atgreen | I'm finally starting to understand _some_ of it. | 17:13 |
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| atgreen | we used to have a tag line for gdb: "GDB: The Best Debugger In The World... for debugging GDB" | 17:32 |
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| petertodd | maaku: I implemented a pruning-capable MMR last night btw - wound up having each node commit to the # of leafs committed to by the node and figured out an implementation that has one set of rules for both perfect tree nodes and otherwise | 18:42 |
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| petertodd | maaku: not done 100% yet, but it appears to make proving things like "is state V1 a predessesor to state V2?" fairly simple | 18:43 |
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| petertodd | maaku: OTOH having # of values - basically as a summed value - introduces overhead in the hashing, and to a lesser extent, serialization | 18:44 |
| petertodd | maaku: also a good sign: I spent ~2-3 hours writing the code, and it worked perfectly first try. Always a good sign IMO. | 18:45 |
| @gmaxwell | petertodd: good sign? nah. if software works is usually only because the tests aren't comprehensive enough. | 18:46 |
| @gmaxwell | :P | 18:46 |
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| petertodd | gmaxwell: lol, yeah, it did pass tests without having to change the code :) | 18:47 |
| @sipa | if software works from the first time, i've experimentally verified that it is results in it being written in python | 18:47 |
| @sipa | and having some flaw that causes the tests to not run | 18:48 |
| petertodd | sipa: heh, it is in Python :) | 18:48 |
| @gmaxwell | yea, my first reflex when software works the first time is that the tests are just ineffective; so then I go add a bug. | 18:48 |
| petertodd | in all honesty, it's early enough that when I say I "wrote the code" that's just the very initial stuff to get the structure of the tree correct as things are added to it | 18:49 |
| petertodd | (which also included a bunch of work on paper to figure out the algorithm) | 18:49 |
| @gmaxwell | I wonder if it's possible to design a bytecode which is optimal for mutation testing. E.g. where almost any change results in a change in behavior. | 18:50 |
| @sipa | petertodd: of course, if you'd be using haskell, the code _would_ work from the first time (after fixing compilation errors) | 18:50 |
| Eliel | sipa: with haskell, yes, that usually happens. The only exception is when you screw up the high level logic :P | 18:51 |
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| petertodd | gmaxwell: haha, I'e got a few places in git history on this project where I added a unit test for some old, broken, behavior, then added a second commit to fix the behavior and change the unit tests :) | 18:51 |
| @sipa | Eliel: see http://r6.ca/blog/20120708T122219Z.html | 18:51 |
| petertodd | Eliel: I'm rather skeptical about people's faith in haskell - I find writing tests a necessary way to double-check your understanding of the high level logic from multiple angles | 18:52 |
| @sipa | petertodd: and you're very right | 18:53 |
| @sipa | petertodd: but read that link still | 18:53 |
| kanzure | .title | 18:53 |
| yoleaux | Confession of a Haskell Hacker | 18:53 |
| @gmaxwell | it's easy for things to seem magical when everything is crap and the thing in question is slightly less so. :P | 18:54 |
| petertodd | sipa: oh, I've read that one before - reminds me of dimensional analysis actually... | 18:54 |
| @gmaxwell | Rust also is reported to have a fairly high "if it compiles, it's correct" factor. | 18:54 |
| kanzure | i've been resorting to lots of random iteration and combinations in tests. and loops over tests of random combinations. (plus some depth-wise comprehensive iteration) | 18:55 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: writing something real in Rust is high on my priority list. Other than not using whitespace as syntax it looks pretty decent | 18:55 |
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| @gmaxwell | I've certantly written C code that I couldn't tell you at all how it worked; I just stated what the solution looked like 'inductively' (E.g. in recursive form) and the program computed the function. | 18:56 |
| Eliel | petertodd: of course. Haskell doesn't help unless the programmer knows what he's doing. | 18:56 |
| kanzure | ah yes the "how are you going to be clever enough to debug it" c2 flamewar | 18:56 |
| petertodd | Eliel: good languages are resistant to drunk programmers :) | 18:57 |
| @gmaxwell | Eliel: see roconnor's post; "Worse yet, when I wrote the focus function, I actually had no idea how the function worked. I simply wrote a function that matched the required type" | 18:57 |
| Eliel | however, in my experience, it's extremely difficulty to get anything even remotely resembling a working program with haskell in such a case :P | 18:57 |
| kanzure | oh weird c2 doesn't have a page on "if you used max cleverness writing it then you aren't clever enough to debug or test it" | 18:57 |
| petertodd | Eliel: and, there's actually a subtlety in that statement: part of being resistant to drunk programmers is being amenable to review by multiple people | 18:58 |
| @sipa | Eliel: he knew perfectly what it was doing; just not how | 18:58 |
| kanzure | it's mentioned here http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OverDesign but meh | 18:58 |
| kanzure | haha "OverDesign for correctness is easy. Make the code twice as simple as it needs to be." | 18:58 |
| Eliel | gmaxwell: ... well, sipa beat me to it :) | 18:58 |
| @sipa | Eliel: and that is awesome; a language that doesn't require you to care about the how | 18:58 |
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| kanzure | oh weird the quote is only about debugging, not testing. hrm. | 19:00 |
| sipa | in many cases, there are reasons why you do want to care about the how (like for example performance, or constant-time requirements, or ...), and ideally you're able to specify it when you do | 19:00 |
| @gmaxwell | Thats one of the things that really killed me with python. Like the level of python skill to write a working python program is an order of magnitude lower than what it takes to write one that isn't 10x slower and 10x more memory consuming than a 'optimized' one. :( | 19:04 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: well, python is a language that gets very frequently used in cases where 1000x slower doesn't bother anyone... | 19:05 |
| @gmaxwell | Resulting in me getting things like factors of >>1000 slower python code vs my C code. :( which basically kills any argument about "programer time is more valuable" | 19:05 |
| @gmaxwell | well at least for me. | 19:05 |
| sipa | if i care about performance at all, i won't use python | 19:05 |
| * nsh smiles | 19:05 | |
| @gmaxwell | Turns out if you make the constant factor big enough you _always_ care about performance. | 19:06 |
| petertodd | sipa: somewhere I've got a python program that spits out math lookup tables from a 3d wireframe cube renderer I implemented on a 8-bit microprocessor :) | 19:06 |
| petertodd | sipa: I cared a lot about performance there! just not in the palce with the python interpreter | 19:07 |
| sipa | "This implementation is Graham's number times slower for small inputs, but is constant time instead of inverse-ackerman function" | 19:07 |
| nsh | i view it more as an efficiently-didactic process versus an efficiently-algorithmic product | 19:07 |
| nsh | but there's nothing particularly especial about python as a repl/fuxing about platform that can't be done in more algorithmically efficient languages with the relevant experience | 19:08 |
| @gmaxwell | (Otherwise I'd suggest moving your computing to http://dmitry.gr/index.php?proj=07.+Linux+on+8bit&r=05.Projects ) | 19:08 |
| nsh | so it's six of one half a dozen to the other | 19:08 |
| petertodd | sipa: fun project, as the thing was so damn slow with so little flash available that I had to write up the perspetive and rotation equations by hand and simplify/juggle them until it could all be done with a single lookup table | 19:08 |
| * nsh smiles | 19:09 | |
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| petertodd | nsh: helped get me a job too! | 19:10 |
| nsh | neat \o/ | 19:10 |
| petertodd | nsh: yeah, they passed it around upper management apparently to convince them I knew enough math to do a tech job :) | 19:11 |
| nsh | heheh | 19:12 |
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| sipa | petertodd: so what did you study actually? is "fine arts degree" an actual degree? | 19:12 |
| sipa | (by which i mean: to me, it sounds similar to "a science degree", which doesn't say what science you studied) | 19:13 |
| petertodd | sipa: it's called "integrated media" at my school, but the curriculum is about half way between a straight up fine arts program and film school | 19:14 |
| petertodd | sipa: quite heavy on acedemic theory about art, post-modern criticism, etc. | 19:15 |
| sipa | i can't help wonder why you decide to study something like that :) | 19:15 |
| kanzure | "well i'm already okay at computers" | 19:15 |
| petertodd | kanzure: lol, kinda yeah | 19:15 |
| kanzure | this plan backfired on me because i picked something that did not seem to have lots of content on the interwebs | 19:15 |
| sipa | well, to be honest, i do wish i had taken electrical engineering (the department under which the cryptography research group is located) instead of computer science (where i didn't actually learn all that much useful) | 19:16 |
| petertodd | my highschool had a comp-sci program that gave you something like 1.5yr - 2yr equiv of university level comp-sci, which I did, then quit that in the last year and took up ceramics/pottery - notably after a summer spent as a Perl programmer... | 19:16 |
| kanzure | that was a good decision | 19:16 |
| @gmaxwell | sipa: usually the answer to such questions is "her name was..." | 19:17 |
| sipa | ? | 19:17 |
| Luke-Jr | LOL | 19:17 |
| sipa | ah! | 19:17 |
| @gmaxwell | "i can't help wonder why you decide to study something like that" | 19:17 |
| Luke-Jr | then kanzure had to step in and give him an alternative reason? :P | 19:17 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: lets just say meeting girls at art school has better odds :) | 19:18 |
| @gmaxwell | (of course substuite prefered genders as relevant for the particular person) | 19:18 |
| sipa | in high school there was an awful german teacher (who was actually called Fritz) in 5th/6th year, and there was one program which did not include german. the 8-hour-math-per-week one. result: half of the 8-hour-math people were really just there to avoid german. most of them reconsidered after a few months | 19:19 |
| petertodd | sipa: haha | 19:20 |
| Luke-Jr | @.@ | 19:20 |
| sipa | this teacher was also known for his very effective 'teaching' strategy; the christmas exam was near impossible, the end-of-year one was trivial | 19:20 |
| sipa | result: everyone 'learned' a lot of german during the second semester from him | 19:21 |
| petertodd | sipa: :/ | 19:21 |
| petertodd | sipa: all through artschool I was nearly 100% excellent teachers... boy was I in for a shock when I went into physics after :( | 19:22 |
| petertodd | sipa: how the fuck can you teach a class if you're too shy to look at the students? (obvs answer: because you're a math major grad student) | 19:23 |
| sipa | i have a headache and it's 4:24 am | 19:24 |
| sipa | i am wondering whether i should go sleep instead | 19:24 |
| petertodd | sipa: work on unit tests until you fall asleep :P | 19:25 |
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| op_mul | sipa: yes. tired and a headache doesn't make good unit tests. | 19:52 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jan 13 00:00:22 2015 | ||
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