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| fluffypony | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/01/14/nsa_sorry_we_borked_nist_encryption_well_sorry_we_got_caught/ | 01:16 |
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| fluffypony | also this was an excellent talk: http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6240_-_en_-_saal_g_-_201412271400_-_reproducible_builds_-_mike_perry_-_seth_schoen_-_hans_steiner.html#video | 04:17 |
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| op_mul | I've seen the topic of output selection come up a few times here, and the general answer is that there's no answer that's *ideal*. | 06:30 |
| op_mul | I came up with a mildly novel attack against some forms out output selection (used by a few wallets), where the software just orders all UTXO by their age and then consumes them sequentially. | 06:31 |
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| op_mul | given two transactions, you can work out if they are maybe related or not just by the age of the outputs they consume. if a later transaction consumed outputs older than an earlier one, they aren't made by the same wallet. | 06:34 |
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| op_mul | only works if you have some other hints about the users software (human leaks, other features of a transaction that might reveal it), but a bit of fun none the less. | 06:35 |
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| earlz | Would it be useful if teh block Nonce field was upgraded from 32bit to 64bit? | 07:09 |
| earlz | There is extranonce, but it seems like a bit of a hack and requires recalculating the merkelhash and is generally more complicated | 07:09 |
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| kanzure | op_mul: i think there are ideal answers for output selection depending on the particular use... and i'd agree with you that it's unlikely that there's an ideal single solution that works across all possible uses. | 08:13 |
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| * op_mul nods | 08:15 | |
| op_mul | I'd just never thought of it as a privacy risk before | 08:15 |
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| hearn | op_mul: i wrote an article on the topic some time ago: http://www.coindesk.com/merge-avoidance-privacy-bitcoin/ | 08:30 |
| hearn | bitcoinj is one of the wallets that just works through utxos in age order, mostly | 08:30 |
| hearn | the idea was to maximise priority so transactions could be free as often as possible, but of course that never really happened, free txns are pretty broken at the moment | 08:31 |
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| op_mul | hearn: oh good to know | 08:32 |
| hearn | i'd like to bring free txns back at some point because it's a big selling point for bitcoin, the difference between "tiny fee" and "free" psychologically is huge | 08:32 |
| hearn | but it needs a bunch of changes | 08:32 |
| op_mul | when does bitcoinj not use oldest first selection? | 08:35 |
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| justanotheruser | Given that we have a UTXO merkle tree in a block, is it possible for a thin client to pay to a think client without a server? It is pretty obvious how a full node could pay to a thin client and tell them which block and which branch the transaction is, or how a thin client could pay a full node without a server. Is there a way to do it where both the payer and the receiver are serverless thin clients? | 09:19 |
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| hearn | op_mul: it can be customised by the app | 09:47 |
| hearn | op_mul: the default selector is pretty dumb though. we never implemented anything as complicated as satoshi's knapsack solver. | 09:47 |
| hearn | my original plan was to investigate using general constraint solvers, but in the end people just ended up attaching a fee for every tx. the amounts are so small that it wasn't the lowest hanging fruit | 09:48 |
| hearn | people have other concerns | 09:48 |
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| nsh | does anyone have a proof-of-existence service that uses OP_RETURN yet? | 13:57 |
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| justanotheruser | nsh: the first result for proof of existence does | 14:37 |
| nsh | \o/ (sorry for lazyasking) | 14:39 |
| * nsh wonders if there's one that will host the file so it's google indexable too | 14:39 | |
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| justanotheruser | Hopefully we won't even be using op_return when sidechains come out :P | 14:43 |
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| bramc | Really dumb question about SPV: Do blocks contain a link to a merkle root of all the transactions they process? | 16:59 |
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| justanotheruser | bramc: yes, the merkle roots in the block header. | 17:00 |
| bramc | justanotheruser, That's the merkle root of the new transactions for that particular block, correct? | 17:00 |
| justanotheruser | yes, the tx in the block | 17:00 |
| bramc | Oh okay, I remember there being discussion about there being a lack of merkle root, that must be for the set of all transactions so far | 17:01 |
| justanotheruser | they may have been discussing a UTXO merkle tree | 17:01 |
| bramc | Yes exactly | 17:02 |
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| bramc | Although it isn't obvious whether such an extension should include all txos or just the utxos | 17:04 |
| justanotheruser | I don't think all the txos would be useful | 17:05 |
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| bramc | Perhaps not, but it could resolve the wft if a client thinks it has a utxos and is rejected | 17:09 |
| justanotheruser | not sure how it could do that | 17:11 |
| justanotheruser | If it isn't in the utxo then it isn't in the utxo. If you spent it, your wallet should know that | 17:12 |
| bramc | It could disambiguate between 'double spent' and 'never issued'. That might not matter though. | 17:13 |
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| faraka | is it possible to audit offchain transactions with non interactive zkp's on bitcoin's blockchain? | 20:28 |
| faraka | it is difficult to track how much the exchange has received and withdrawn and validate those addresses | 20:29 |
| faraka | i can't wrap my head around how to do it. | 20:29 |
| bramc | faraka, Not sure what it is you'd like to audit (not like I have a good answer in any case) | 20:30 |
| faraka | total balance | 20:31 |
| bramc | An exchange can straightforwardly prove that they have a certain amount of balance in reserve just by moving it around. That doesn't stop them from lieing about how much they've told people they have in deposits though. | 20:31 |
| faraka | proof of balance | 20:31 |
| faraka | true, they can reuse addresses, aside from being a costly mechanism | 20:32 |
| bramc | Not particularly costly, just have a single massive coin which you move around like a hot potato | 20:32 |
| faraka | don't like that, it's like a heist waiting to happen. | 20:33 |
| bramc | Or for each individual they could have a coin corresponding specifically to that individual's holdings, although that raises the question of why you're using an exchange at all. | 20:34 |
| bramc | Bitcoin in general is a heist waiting to happen. | 20:34 |
| faraka | i presented something trivial at the miami bitcoin hackathon, but i realized it was useless if it can't prevent off chain heists. | 20:35 |
| faraka | my friend is convinced a student will break bitcoin. | 20:35 |
| faraka | in theory a good non interactive zkp would render the blockchain useless. | 20:37 |
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| bramc | Not sure what you're talking about doing a zkp of. The problem with doing proofs of deposit about things like dollars is that they're something which exists out in the wild, and you can't prove anything about them without relying on some external attestation. | 20:49 |
| bramc | Why does SPV use a bloom filter instead of specifying leading bits? | 20:59 |
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| amiller_ | bramc, what are you talking about, you can represent a large number of elements in a bloom filter using a very small number of bits, way more than specifying the leading bits of all the elements | 21:07 |
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| bramc | amiller_, I was thinking mostly from the point of view of requesting a single thing | 21:12 |
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| bramc | A prefix there provides arguably better anonymity. Or not. There are arguments either way as to whether clustering like that is better. | 21:13 |
| bramc | If two people are in a transaction together and they ask using bloom filters, then if you know that they're in a transaction together you can guess which transaction it is, but if you don't know they're in a transaction together then you have an easier time guessing that if they specify a prefix | 21:16 |
| bramc | Unless the whole point of the exercise is to request specific things using the minimum bandwidth possible, without worrying about anonymity, in which case I guess bloom filters make sense. | 21:17 |
| bramc | Although I find it hard to imagine that most wallets need more than one thing at a time. | 21:18 |
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| bramc | What does it mean that a block can't be more than a million bytes when it's including the merkle root of transactions? Doesn't that make the block per se small? Or does the million refer to the sum total of the sizes of all the transactions? | 22:13 |
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| midnightmagic | bramc: a block size calculation includes all its transactions | 23:50 |
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| bramc | Thanks, that explains that | 23:54 |
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| bramc | My comment before about prefixes is really about whether ntweak is actually a good idea or whether it should be standardized | 23:55 |
| phantomcircuit | note that doesn't include the size of the merkle tree | 23:55 |
| phantomcircuit | header + transactions | 23:55 |
| bramc | Right, that was my assumption but I forgot to ask | 23:56 |
| bramc | Is the merkle root canonical based on the transactions which went in? | 23:56 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, it's based on the arbitrary order in which transactions are put into the block | 23:57 |
| bramc | *headdesk* | 23:58 |
| phantomcircuit | there has been some rumblings about setting the order | 23:58 |
| phantomcircuit | but well transactions are malleable anyways so that's kind of pointless to do before fixing that | 23:59 |
| phantomcircuit | mostly it doesn't matter except if you have dependent transactions in the same block | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Fri Jan 16 00:00:25 2015 | ||
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