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| Luke-Jr | coblee: even w/o policy diversity, there is no magic way to make an UNconfirmed tx anything but unconfirmed.. | 05:37 |
|---|---|---|
| andytoshi | earlz: regarding "should the nonce be bigger" no, the merkle root is perfectly capable of acting as a nonce so arguably every bit of the nonce is wasted header space, better it be 0 bits than 64 :) | 05:40 |
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| andytoshi | coblee: you should ask about unconfirmed txes in #bitcoin, there are almost no circumstances where requiring confirmations results in a bad user experience and this has been beaten to death many times before | 05:45 |
| op_mul | andytoshi: | 05:46 |
| op_mul | :< | 05:46 |
| Luke-Jr | indeed, quite off-topic for wizards, and something I would expect Coinbase to be familiar with a long time ago | 05:46 |
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| justanotheruser | andytoshi: If it was 0 bits wouldn't blocks take more time with more transactions? | 05:49 |
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| andytoshi | justanotheruser: ah, yeah, you'd need to change the merkle tree structure (maybe have the root be H(nonce || actual root) so effectively your leftmost branch always has length one) | 05:51 |
| op_mul | could have trimmed the block version size down a bit and used that for nonce instead | 05:52 |
| op_mul | do we really need space for 4294967295 block versions? | 05:53 |
| justanotheruser | Do we need a version number? | 05:54 |
| op_mul | yes, we've already been through a couple | 05:56 |
| op_mul | BIP62 specifies block version 3 | 05:56 |
| justanotheruser | Do we need it in the block header I mean? | 05:57 |
| justanotheruser | Might as well swap it with the extranonce | 05:57 |
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| kanzure | hearn: so that's cool and all... but that sounds like argument from authority... is there a link with explanations and wordtext instead? | 09:31 |
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| hearn | hm? | 09:31 |
| hearn | what sounds like an argument from authority? | 09:31 |
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| kanzure | weren't we just talking? | 09:31 |
| kanzure | maybe it's a different hearn | 09:31 |
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| hearn | is this responding to the email on xgbtc? | 09:32 |
| kanzure | yeah | 09:32 |
| hearn | oh, i see. i think the bitcointalk thread has explanations in it? i don't think it was extensively discussed since then, or if it was then i forgot. | 09:34 |
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| kanzure | i would really appreciate links | 09:34 |
| kanzure | in particular, my points were basically: | 09:34 |
| kanzure | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=157141.msg1668659#msg1668659 | 09:34 |
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| kanzure | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=157141.msg1834361#msg1834361 | 09:34 |
| hearn | the start of that thread? | 09:35 |
| kanzure | of course, i know that links are not always available because words happen elsewhere, but perhaps you can paste those words or make them again | 09:35 |
| * hearn what is the problem you are worried about? that miners would re-mine new chains without any transactions in except the ones you | 09:36 | |
| hearn | oops, huh, looks like i found a new keyboard shortcut | 09:36 |
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| hearn | except the ones you used to pay them? | 09:36 |
| hearn | there's no point in miners doing that because the inputs to the contracts actually do need to come from successfully confirmed payments. they can't just strip out all the transactions except the contracts for very long before everything stops working and then they earn no money at all | 09:37 |
| kanzure | "successfully confirmed payments" are created by mining known payments | 09:38 |
| hearn | but honestly, i'm not sure i want to go around this debate again tonight. who cares? block subsidies are so huge that we have entire datacenters doing nothing but mining, yet are owned by one person. hash rates could fall a lot without any major problems, i think, so it could be a loooong time before this becomes an issue | 09:38 |
| kanzure | (by which i mean, "are created by mining blocks that contain those known payments") | 09:38 |
| hearn | a lot of these debates, by the way, boil down to one core disagreement that surfaces in different forms | 09:39 |
| hearn | some people assume miners will attempt to arbitrarily break anything they aren't incentivised by payments to not break | 09:39 |
| hearn | others assume they will not, because they are incentivised to ensure bitcoin is generally useful and adopted, as that is what gives the coins they mine value | 09:39 |
| kanzure | if you were okay with trusting the miners like that, then why bother with bitcoin at all? | 09:40 |
| kanzure | why all the indirection? etc | 09:40 |
| hearn | miners have always been trusted like that. go read the white paper - it says in the opening bitcoin is a system that works when the majority of miners are "honest". the goal of mining is to handle the case of an occasional or minority dishonest contingent. | 09:40 |
| hearn | if all miners are collaborating to dick over the ecosystem in arbitrary ways and generally be dishonest, bitcoin doesn't work anymore | 09:41 |
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| kanzure | i suppose you and i might have very different ideas of what "working" means | 09:42 |
| hearn | like i said, "a lot of these debates, by the way, boil down to one core disagreement that surfaces in different forms" | 09:42 |
| kanzure | that's circular. | 09:42 |
| kanzure | whereas my statement is not | 09:42 |
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| hearn | no, it's not circular. you appear to be unsatisfied with any argument that boils down to "the majority of miners will do this, because it makes bitcoin work better / increases its value / follows the rules". but that is the original bitcoin argument made by satoshi - it's exactly the threat model always used. if you want a system that works even when all miners are willing to burn the whole system to the ground for 1 cent of extra | 09:44 |
| hearn | profit in the next few hours, you don't want bitcoin | 09:44 |
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| hearn | anyway, these debates rapidly become entirely philosophical. we're not going to get to find out what actually happens for a long time. | 09:45 |
| kanzure | who the hell cares about "majority of miners"?? why would that matter? | 09:45 |
| kanzure | sorry, that freaked me out. you should know that the majority of miners does not matter at all... | 09:45 |
| hearn | s/miners/hash power/. you know what i mean. | 09:46 |
| kanzure | you are too generous, i often don't | 09:46 |
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| kanzure | i think there's a conflation of "honest" and "trust" there | 10:01 |
| kanzure | releasing a known blockchain that causes a reorg is not particularly dishonest | 10:01 |
| kanzure | that's essential for the whole system to work, even | 10:03 |
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| op_mul | is forking a piece of software from the block chain dishonest? | 10:25 |
| op_mul | say, if you could fork bitcoin ruby off. | 10:25 |
| kanzure | was there an actual definition of honest/dishonest in the paper? /me looks again | 10:25 |
| op_mul | "honest nodes" | 10:25 |
| kanzure | okay, so "correct nodes" | 10:26 |
| op_mul | "honest block" | 10:26 |
| kanzure | that's too vague... | 10:26 |
| op_mul | he does actually talk about forks of the chain being in themself honest and dishonest | 10:27 |
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| op_mul | it's a bit crazy how far away bitcoin is from this paper | 10:29 |
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| waxwing | i have a memory of a quote somewhere where satoshi expressed discomfort at his use of the term "honest" in the paper. something like, he couldn't find a better word to express the concept. | 10:46 |
| kanzure | waxwing: this? http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2008-November/014818.html | 10:48 |
| waxwing | must be. | 10:49 |
| waxwing | you seem to be on top of things. i'll let you get on with it :) | 10:49 |
| kanzure | nah that's just the bitcoin tumor in my head doing its job | 10:50 |
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| op_mul | I like the description of Bitcoin as a mental ailment. | 10:58 |
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| justanotheruser | Given that we have a UTXO merkle tree in a block, is it possible for a thin client to pay to a think client without a server? It is pretty obvious how a full node could pay to a thin client and tell them which block and which branch the transaction is, or how a thin client could pay a full node without a server. Is there a way to do it where both the payer and the receiver are serverless thin clients? | 11:11 |
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| faraka | hello | 11:12 |
| op_mul | justanotheruser: if you're relying on a remote peer to do filtering for you, sure there's nothing stopping that. | 11:13 |
| faraka | what do you guys think of factom? | 11:13 |
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| justanotheruser | op_mul: well if of the two people involved in a transaction is a full node, there doesn't need to be a server telling the recipient which tx is theirs | 11:14 |
| op_mul | with two SPV peers you're going to be relying on at least one of them connecting to a full node and using them for filtering. | 11:15 |
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| justanotheruser | yeah, I was wondering if there was some solution to that. None are obvious to me | 11:16 |
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| op_mul | a way to ask peers for their full merkle tree? there's nothing pretty in any case. | 11:18 |
| justanotheruser | yeah, you can ask for as many transactions as you want to increase the size of your anonymity set, but you can only increase it so much until you become a full node :p | 11:19 |
| op_mul | just the merkle tree, not the transactions in it. | 11:19 |
| op_mul | you'd know your own transaction, so you can fit it in and build a proof using it if you want. | 11:19 |
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| amiller_ | justanotheruser, can the thin clients communicate directly to each other? | 11:22 |
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| justanotheruser | amiller_: I don't see why they couldn't | 11:25 |
| amiller_ | so thin client A sender can send the transaction hash to thin client B receiver, now thin client B can ask its peers to filter for it and see when its included in a block? | 11:26 |
| justanotheruser | amiller_: that is what is done right now | 11:27 |
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| justanotheruser | but asking your peers deanonymizes you | 11:28 |
| faraka | isn't factom a scam? | 11:28 |
| faraka | wouldn't it be possible to do the same thing without a coin? | 11:28 |
| faraka | a thir party is needed to verify existence of a physical object. | 11:28 |
| faraka | a coin seems a redundant process | 11:29 |
| kanzure | not all bad ideas are scams | 11:29 |
| amiller_ | justanotheruser, oh... what kind of anonymity would be considered sufficient? you could hack a little bit by asking for a filter that includes lots of chaff transactions | 11:29 |
| kanzure | and also, factom could be something other than a scam and still be a bad idea | 11:29 |
| justanotheruser | amiller_: Well the best kind of anonymity is where only the sender knows you received it | 11:30 |
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| op_mul | amiller_: that's been shown to be almost totally ineffective. | 11:30 |
| faraka | what would you propose as a better alternative kanzure? | 11:30 |
| justanotheruser | If the sender is a full node he should send you the merkle branch | 11:30 |
| op_mul | amiller_: there's a paper where they were using a > 30% false positive rate and it still provided close to no privacy. | 11:31 |
| kanzure | faraka: what do you mean? i was just suggesting to you that even if it's not a scam, it might still be a bad idea. | 11:31 |
| faraka | oh lol misread. sorry. | 11:31 |
| justanotheruser | faraka: yeah, you can do it without a coin. send a mining pool merged mining info and a merkle tree will be constructed with all your commitments with the merkle root in the coinbase | 11:31 |
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| amiller_ | op_mul, yes but there are possible countermeasures and further this need not involve just addresses but specific tx hashes which is a little more favorable | 11:32 |
| justanotheruser | It will probably be easier to do this as sidechains are developed | 11:32 |
| amiller_ | kanzure, those were two ways of saying the same thing :p i think you meant to say: also some scams are even good ideas! | 11:32 |
| op_mul | amiller_: I think BIP37 should be deprecated. there's a better option. | 11:33 |
| kanzure | amiller_: oh, i'm not sure if i meant to say that. | 11:33 |
| kanzure | amiller_: oh wait, yes, you're right. some good ideas can be operated as scams. | 11:33 |
| faraka | what's the development status on sidechains? | 11:33 |
| amiller_ | justanotheruser, okay so i don't see anyway that utxo commitments help, but it also seems like its already solved, unless im missing some extra constraint you posed | 11:37 |
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| justanotheruser | amiller_: my constraint is 2 spv clients, one paying the other without giving up anonymity by allowing a full node to see which tx you want | 11:38 |
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| op_mul | justanotheruser: using non-bip37 bloom filters does that anyway. | 11:39 |
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| justanotheruser | op_mul: hm? | 11:40 |
| op_mul | you can sieve your cake and tell nobody about it. | 11:40 |
| justanotheruser | hm | 11:41 |
| op_mul | transaction contents of a block are built into a filter by the miner. the filter is embedded into the merkle tree. to find if the block is "interesting" or not, the SPV client asks a peer for the header + bloom filter + proof. the SPV client matches with the bloom filter without revealing their interest. | 11:41 |
| justanotheruser | They still need to ask for the merkle branch though? | 11:42 |
| op_mul | I think phantomcircuit was talking about making a proof of concept, or had one, I can't remember | 11:42 |
| op_mul | no, they download the whole block | 11:43 |
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| justanotheruser | oh, so they make their anonymity set every recipient in that block | 11:43 |
| op_mul | and they can do interesting things like requesting false positives, or requesting from other peers, or even peers they've never connected to at all. | 11:44 |
| amiller_ | justanotheruser, better than that, the client doesn't reveal whether the client found what it was looking for in the block | 11:44 |
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| amiller_ | nvm disgregard my last line | 11:45 |
| op_mul | it reveals a little if you download the block straight from a peer that knows you are filtering. | 11:46 |
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| dgenr8 | <op_mul> "it's a bit crazy how far away bitcoin is from this paper" Then again, none of us designed it, and would the person who thinks he/she would ever have done so, please raise their hand? | 11:47 |
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| op_mul | the main advantages are that you don't give your whole filter to a single person in the network, and also that you can retain the filters and use them at a later date to do a rescan. | 11:47 |
| op_mul | it solves the problem of fully validating, but pruned nodes not being able to rescan a wallet. | 11:47 |
| op_mul | dgenr8: you missed what I had in mind. I was just saying that a few of the goals are better understood now, and some of the things don't exist as features or problems anymore. | 11:49 |
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| kanzure | bitpay payment channel stuff http://impulse.is/impulse.pdf | 11:57 |
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| dgenr8 | op_mul: i guess there's some room for disagreement on materially how far away from the original we are today | 12:03 |
| op_mul | the bit about pruning spent transactions from merkle trees is outdated, you can agree on that | 12:04 |
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| gmaxwell | op_mul: the software never stored hash trees, sooo. | 12:24 |
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| op_mul | gmaxwell: yes, which makes part 7 of the whitepaper even more confusing. | 12:36 |
| gmaxwell | op_mul: well what it means is that you can still serve spv clients about available coins withtout keeping all the block's data. | 12:37 |
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| op_mul | right, hadn't realised that. sounds horrible to implement, though. | 12:41 |
| gmaxwell | It would have been straight forward-ish in the original implementation. you'd just delete txn and replace them with the missing hashes in the database. | 12:42 |
| op_mul | partly what I meant by outdated, it seems like a horrific amount of disk operations to get that working in the current client | 12:43 |
| gmaxwell | nah. not really. | 12:56 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, er that actually sounds non trivial unless you're relying the the fs to punch holes in the file efficiently | 13:06 |
| phantomcircuit | (hint: they mostly dont) | 13:06 |
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| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: uh. you're overly constraining yourself. rewriting storage is no big deal. | 13:23 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, depends on whether you're pruning 1 tx at a time or not | 13:36 |
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| amiller_ | MRL-Relay, have you all thought of implementing private balances in cryptonote | 14:35 |
| amiller_ | MRL-Relay, you'd potentially cut way down on transaction size and also boost anonymity set | 14:36 |
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| amiller_ | im probably really late to this, i know such proof systems have been discussed here before, and im probably the last one to grok cryptonote so i dont know if its been discussed in that context | 14:43 |
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| amiller_ | to do range proofs im pretty sure need either groups with unknown order (including RSA groups, but excluding elliptic curve groups) or groth sahai proofs (which also need trusted setup of some kind) | 15:02 |
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| nsh | .wik groth sahai proof | 15:42 |
| yoleaux | "Non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs are a variant of zero-knowledge proofs in which no interaction is necessary between prover and verifier. Blum, Feldman, and Micali showed that a common reference string shared between the prover and the verifier is enough to achieve computational zero-knowledge without requiring interaction." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interactive_zero-knowledge_proof | 15:42 |
| nsh | .g Perfect Non-interactive Zero Knowledge ext:pdf | 15:42 |
| yoleaux | http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rafail/PUBLIC/71.pdf | 15:42 |
| nsh | amiller_, any practical implementations of this latter (groth sahai) extant? | 15:43 |
| * nsh is (unrelatedly) tempted to share an intuition he had about the blockchain and tried to explicate in another channel, but it will probably be poorly-received | 15:44 | |
| nsh | nevertheless: | 15:49 |
| nsh | -- | 15:49 |
| nsh | oh this might relate to a half intuition i had about part of the magic of the blockchain. that it cheats and uses the magic of statistics that allows a local point to make a global measurement | 15:49 |
| nsh | <someone> what is it measuring globally? | 15:49 |
| nsh | it's to do with the consensuation of the retargeting. somehow everyone has to agree on something so that some other things happens as a poisson process with a fixed approximate mean. (mining a block) | 15:49 |
| nsh | but you can't measure global hashrate. that would be an absurdly ambitious undertaking, naively. figuring out how much hashpower everyone has, whether it's turned on, which hashes it's grinding. but you can actually access that information through the holistics of statistics. because the time it takes for someone to win the hashing 'magically' subsumes all that information | 15:49 |
| nsh | (but only magically because everyone who wins has an incentive to shout about it and the rules are designed to amplify and verify the validity of their MEMEMEMEMEME!) | 15:49 |
| nsh | -- | 15:49 |
| nsh | anyway, this 'holistics of statistics' notion is something i've wondered about since early childhood and it hasn't really cropped up much in formal or informal education | 15:50 |
| nsh | so i was wondering if it would recall in someone something they could point me at to delve a bit deeper | 15:50 |
| nsh | (i mean, surely everyone has at some point thought: "how do all the independent coin tosses conspire to the average?", right? or is this a product of nsh-brainweirds?) | 15:51 |
| amiller_ | nsh, i don't know of any implementation of groth sahai proofs :( | 15:55 |
| amiller_ | nsh, isis lovecruft was beginning to implement them actually | 15:55 |
| nsh | ah, hmm | 15:55 |
| amiller_ | i have a pretty good grasp of rsa group proofs and schnorr group proofs in general | 15:55 |
| amiller_ | a crs is required anyway so its not obvious if groth-sahai is better than rsa for whatever applicatin | 15:56 |
| amiller_ | by which i mean, a sensitive setup procedure ostensibly involving a trapdoor or else something complicated like a UFO is required | 15:56 |
| nsh | right, there's an inherent trust-fragility to the set-up procedure | 15:57 |
| amiller_ | i think groth sahai should be doable though | 15:57 |
| kanzure | nsh: there were a few phiosophers of statistis (like charles pierce?) but you might find that too ridiculous | 15:57 |
| nsh | (which is not necessarily worse than the existing trust-fragilities of other sociotechnological systems, but unappealing) | 15:57 |
| kanzure | *statistics | 15:57 |
| kanzure | i think you can measure global hashrate by looking at infrared radiation | 15:57 |
| kanzure | this places an upper bound | 15:57 |
| nsh | well, the point is you don't have to if you can amplify, verify and consensuate the first person who chances on the target | 15:58 |
| nsh | this is what allows a single point in the system to do a global measurement | 15:58 |
| nsh | i think this is conceptually important, somehow, but i'm not sure exactly wht | 15:58 |
| nsh | *why | 15:58 |
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| nsh | amiller_, is it conceivable that the universe somehow provides a CRS? | 15:59 |
| nsh | seems rather esoteric maybe | 15:59 |
| nsh | no more so than the random oracle model though | 16:00 |
| amiller_ | thats the premise of a UFO i think | 16:00 |
| nsh | mm | 16:00 |
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| amiller_ | short answer, it probably does, but a) you can't check, b) you have to sample a lot of times to get a good chance of ending up with one, so oh well | 16:00 |
| kanzure | also i think you can do hashrate proof-of-work incentives as a method of statistical sampling, which provides knowledge of various floors (when an observation is made) | 16:01 |
| kanzure | for example, a task that osmeone would have to specifically point their hashrate at instead of mining blocks, which obviously not everyone is obligated to try which is why i said floor-when-observations-are-made | 16:02 |
| nsh | well, moment of success is a proxy-measurement of hashes attempted, then rate is just the delta | 16:04 |
| nsh | you cannot conceivably measure hashes-that-might-have-been-attempted | 16:04 |
| nsh | which is part of the problem with hashpower liquidity/slushing | 16:04 |
| nsh | and part of what sidechains hopes to solve | 16:05 |
| kanzure | i could imagine being quite easily convinced that hashrate is the wrong word to be using (especially since it's so hard to measure by anyone else) | 16:09 |
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| * nsh muses | 16:13 | |
| kanzure | nsh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Sanders_Peirce#Probability_and_statistics | 16:14 |
| kanzure | (not sure if this is the direction you're asking for) | 16:14 |
| nsh | yeah, but i basically hate everyone who has ever written on the subject of statistics or logic | 16:15 |
| nsh | for aesthetic reasons | 16:15 |
| nsh | so it's painful to consume | 16:15 |
| nsh | (conceptuaesthetic reasons, or whatever, the thing that makes you know what's elegant and that's horrific in concepts and their compositions) | 16:16 |
| nsh | *what's | 16:16 |
| kanzure | that hate i probably deserved i'm sure, and i have nothing good to offer you | 16:16 |
| kanzure | *is probably | 16:16 |
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| kanzure | gmaxwell: regarding your request for materials involving other unintended consequences in complex system design... http://betterembsw.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-case-study-of-toyota-unintended.html?m=1 | 16:48 |
| kanzure | "1. The Throttle Angle function in the Toyota code had a McCabe Cyclomatic Complexity of 146 (over 50 is considered untestable according to slides) [slide 38] 2. The main throttle function was 1300 lines long, and had no directed tests. [slide 38] 3. I find the static analysis results quite alarming. [slide 37] 4. 80+% of variables were declared as global. [slide 40] I find this to be a stunning lapse of quality, especially for a ... | 16:48 |
| kanzure | ... safety-critical system." | 16:48 |
| kanzure | ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8905718 ) | 16:48 |
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| kanzure | "The infeasibility of quantifying the reliability of life-critical real-time software" http://www3.cs.stonybrook.edu/~tashbook/fall2009/cse308/butler-finelli-infeasibilit.pdf | 16:56 |
| kanzure | (cited in the slides) | 16:57 |
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| kanzure | maaku: is there a better physical-domain unit or dimension than "work" for describing proof-of-work? | 19:27 |
| kanzure | hm maybe i should be asking fenn, since he's practically the resident evangelist of gnu units heh | 19:28 |
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| bramc | Isn't work generally expressed in gigahashes? | 20:35 |
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| kanzure | sure but a gigahash is still a.. er.. "compressed".. physical unit of some other dimensions | 20:49 |
| kanzure | or it might be some dimensionless unit, i haven't checked | 20:49 |
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| Adlai | kanzure: not a perfect analogy, but percentage of checked solution space? | 21:10 |
| bramc | The underlying unit is flops | 21:23 |
| bramc | although there's no floating point involved, so technically it isn't flops, and generally the custom hardware has built-in hashing functionality | 21:23 |
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| kanzure | fenn: what is the physical dimensions of a flop second | 22:08 |
| * nsh blicks | 22:09 | |
| nsh | flops has an implicit / | 22:09 |
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| nsh | so the physical dimension of a flop(s) second is just a barenumber | 22:10 |
| nsh | the physical dimension of an operation per second is... well i guess we have to analyze a bit what we mean by operation | 22:10 |
| nsh | but it will resolve to entropics | 22:10 |
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| nsh | so amount of energy, assuming irreversible computing | 22:10 |
| nsh | thus power | 22:11 |
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| op_mul | nsh: what's nice about measuring hashpower is that you can, with some weak assumptions, convert them to the consumption of energy. | 22:15 |
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| op_mul | if we make the sort of low end assumption that the entire network is powered by Antminer S5 units, then we're consuming about 0.51 joule per gigahash. | 22:17 |
| * nsh nods | 22:18 | |
| nsh | but actual power consumption/dissipation is itself quite a simplification | 22:19 |
| op_mul | from there, you can move to working out the equivalent costs in various foods. say, how many acorns you'd need to burn in order to mine one block. which comes up with some absolutely hilarious numbers. | 22:19 |
| nsh | actually that's going on is that order is being imported and consumed and disorder exported and gotridof | 22:19 |
| nsh | and that's a geometrical/spacial process | 22:20 |
| nsh | you can't reason about it in put unitary terms | 22:20 |
| nsh | *what's going on | 22:20 |
| op_mul | (an acorn is about 490,000 joules) | 22:20 |
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| nsh | do kids play conkers where you grew up op_mul? | 22:26 |
| nsh | the horse chestnut that wins a dozen rounds of smack-the-nuts-attached-to-string-against-each-other | 22:27 |
| nsh | is if qualitatively special, or just quantitatively? | 22:27 |
| nsh | *it | 22:27 |
| op_mul | I'm out of touch with what kids do now. it's probably an iphone game. I only chose nuts because I know they have a very high energy density. about the same as a potato according to wolfram alpha, but in a lot less physical space. | 22:28 |
| * nsh nods | 22:28 | |
| nsh | i'm just wondering about when it stops mattering how much of something there is there | 22:28 |
| nsh | and starts mattering how it's arranged, how energy can be dispersed through it without exceeding some sheer threshold | 22:29 |
| nsh | the winning conker is not necessarily of a greater mass(energy) | 22:29 |
| phantomcircuit | this seems like an add discussion | 22:29 |
| nsh | the disorder? | 22:30 |
| nsh | :) | 22:30 |
| nsh | or operation... | 22:30 |
| op_mul | I was trying to put a real world scale on it, something like petahashes a second is pretty meaningless. | 22:32 |
| nsh | well, it's more meaningful to the statistical expectation than workenergy dissipated | 22:33 |
| nsh | and Bitcoin cares about the former | 22:33 |
| nsh | the economics of bitcoin cares about the latter, though | 22:33 |
| nsh | and that effects the design decisions in ways that are unfortunately filtered through human incentive filters | 22:34 |
| nsh | this is an even more spurious relation than between petahashes and megajoules | 22:35 |
| op_mul | ignoring the tears of the irish, if we burnt every potato produced in 2014 and converted it directly into mining hashpower with zero losses we could run the bitcoin network for 17 days. | 22:37 |
| op_mul | er hold on, I'm off by a large amount there. | 22:37 |
| op_mul | 30.12 days. | 22:41 |
| op_mul | maybe that's not such an easy to understand measure of hashpower after all. | 22:41 |
| nsh | matter is a bad measure of work. it's very hard to efficiently convert stuff to stuff-gets-done | 22:48 |
| nsh | if you measured it in the useful energy an average human would get from eating those potatoes | 22:48 |
| nsh | it might be more reasonable | 22:49 |
| nsh | (for silly values of reason, being, incidentally, the best values of reason) | 22:49 |
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| op_mul | wolfram alpha tells me that if you ate 300 million tonnes of potatos you would die of vitamin A poisoning. | 22:51 |
| op_mul | at any rate, the only reason you would work out things like this is just to attempt to show scale to a reader. | 22:52 |
| kanzure | .wa 300 million tonnes of potato | 22:54 |
| yoleaux | prepared potato: amount: 300000000 t (metric tons): Calories: | mean value: % daily value: range; total calories: 2.6×10¹⁴ Cal: 1.294×10¹³%: (1.3×10¹⁴ to 3.2×10¹⁴) Cal; fat calories: 2.9×10¹² Cal: | (2.5×10¹² to 5.3×10¹²) Cal; Fats and fatty acids: | mean value: % daily value: range; total fat: 3.7×10⁸ kg: 5.674×10¹¹%: (3×10⁸ to 6.3×10⁸) kg; saturated fat: 9.3×10⁷ kg: 4.65×10¹¹%: (6.6× … | 22:55 |
| yoleaux | 10⁷ to 1.6×10⁸) kg | 22:55 |
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| phantomcircuit | using tor has gotten a lot more annoying since cloudflare took over the fucking internet | 22:59 |
| op_mul | an interesting feature of cloudflare is that it ruins almost all censorship. | 23:00 |
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| phantomcircuit | op_mul, ? | 23:05 |
| op_mul | IP based censorship and MITM based censorship fail if the host is behind cloudflare. | 23:06 |
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| op_mul | though I can't say I'm happy about using the cloudflarternet. sites like blockchain.info serving up security critical javascript through a tampering reverse proxy is just insane. | 23:07 |
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| phantomcircuit | op_mul, it's easy enough to block the dns requests | 23:26 |
| phantomcircuit | but i guess that's easier to get around | 23:26 |
| op_mul | yes, my ISP only poisons their default DNS I think. | 23:27 |
| op_mul | though I've noticed a few bits of weirdness which suggest a transparent HTTP proxy. | 23:27 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Jan 18 00:00:16 2015 | ||
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