| --- Log opened Mon Jan 19 00:00:20 2015 | ||
| --- Day changed Mon Jan 19 2015 | ||
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| * andy-logbot is logging | 01:05 | |
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| nsh | does leslie lamport ever chime in on any or any things bitcoin/blockchain? | 03:15 |
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| andytoshi | nsh: i've never heard him do so, no | 13:57 |
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| andytoshi | kanzure: the most meaningful way to measure hashpower is in gigahashes (or some scalar multiple of this, like megahashes or flops) ... converting to energy is an accident of the currently available hardware and might be useful for economic reasoning, but energy consumption does not let you directly derive things like hashrate (which is a "macrovariable" or statistical quantity, analogous to | 13:58 |
| andytoshi | temperature) | 13:58 |
| andytoshi | amiller: re output value hiding, adam3us has a proposal on how to do this somewhat efficiently, but it does not result in smaller transactions (since you need to provide a proof that outputs ≤ inputs) | 14:00 |
| andytoshi | amiller: i don't think it's compatible with cryptonote signatures...it is definitely not compatible with the form of output value hiding that gmaxwell and myself proposed in https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/ringsig-blinding.txt | 14:01 |
| phantomcircuit | jgarzik, a thought on ASN.1, the encoding format itself is actually decent, however common implementations are insane | 14:03 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: actually i wasn't that interested in measuring hashpower, but only the dimensional units of the "work" that the hashpower makes proofs of | 14:04 |
| andytoshi | amiller: here is adam3us's proposal https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=305791.0 i do not remember the details of what it requires from the signature scheme | 14:04 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: computations | 14:04 |
| kanzure | you guys are bad at dimensions :P | 14:04 |
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| amiller | andytoshi, that system seems like it involves decomposition into bits | 14:05 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: well a computation is a real physical thing, but we're into quantum physics that i don't understand now.. | 14:05 |
| kanzure | in other areas of physics, work is measured in joules | 14:05 |
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| kanzure | obviously, joules is not appropriate here | 14:05 |
| kanzure | (although the definition might incorporate joules somewhere.....) | 14:05 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: the problem is that you can make little changes to your model of computation that introduce constants or even O(time) factors, this is why computational complexity doesn't get more specific than "polynomial" and "nonpolynomial" unless it really needs to | 14:07 |
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| andytoshi | kanzure: if you want to be precise, i'd say "RAM machine ticks" | 14:08 |
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| jgarzik | phantomcircuit, agree, and that's the rub | 14:10 |
| jgarzik | phantomcircuit, protobufs had a much better ecosystem for developers | 14:10 |
| phantomcircuit | k | 14:11 |
| phantomcircuit | that's reasonable | 14:11 |
| jgarzik | phantomcircuit, easier to pick your favorite language, and get going more rapidly | 14:11 |
| jgarzik | thus anyone can easily support BIP70 w/ existing code | 14:11 |
| jgarzik | not so w/ ASN | 14:11 |
| phantomcircuit | especially since openssl still doesn't correctly implement DER... | 14:11 |
| jgarzik | lol, yep | 14:11 |
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| phantomcircuit | i like how their patch doesn't actually fix the underlying issue | 14:11 |
| Alanius | I think in the end it does boil down to Joules; it's just that current mining technology is horribly inefficient and produces a lot of heat in the way, making energy a very unmeaningful measurement. But there is a thermodynamic limit to computation so in the end there is some conversion rate between "computations" and "joules". | 14:12 |
| phantomcircuit | i wonder if there's anybody left that understands the macro ASN.1 stuff well enough to fix it | 14:12 |
| phantomcircuit | Alanius, current miners are INSANELY efficient... | 14:12 |
| phantomcircuit | where in the world would you get the opposite impression from | 14:12 |
| Alanius | well ... compared to what? | 14:12 |
| Alanius | miners today use far less energy to produce one hash than say a year ago; but I posit that they are still using orders of magnitude more energy than what is thermodynamically necessary to produce one hash | 14:14 |
| kanzure | hah, quite right yeah there's definitely an upper limit you can estimate like that | 14:17 |
| phantomcircuit | Alanius, the current systems are within 1 order of magnitude of what is possible on the best currently available process node | 14:18 |
| phantomcircuit | getting to the limit would require clockless designs that are very very expensive to get right and which i cant seriously see anybody doing | 14:18 |
| phantomcircuit | so basically you should expect to see improvements roughly following improvements in the broader semiconductor industry | 14:19 |
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| kanzure | "ivan sutherland and i think some berkeley folks are doing clockless designs with reasonable success" | 14:21 |
| kanzure | " http://arc.cecs.pdx.edu/ though they're bad at putting papers here" | 14:21 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, it's my understanding that clockless design becomes much more difficult on <90nm process nodes | 14:22 |
| phantomcircuit | something about wire delay becoming unpredictable | 14:22 |
| rusty | phantomcircuit: BTW, thanks for mentioning the length extension attack yesterday; now I finally learned the reason for double sha... | 14:23 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, His point was that there is in fact a fundamental physics limit on how little energy you can use to do computation. We're nowhere close to that right now. | 14:24 |
| phantomcircuit | rusty, it's obscure but apparently H(k|m) isn't an entirely uncommon MAC scheme | 14:24 |
| op_mul | rusty: if it wasn't double SHA, miners really wouldn't be doing much at all | 14:24 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, yeah i noticed that now... but really we'll never be so what's the point? | 14:25 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, It would be interesting to know what the fundamental limit is | 14:25 |
| kanzure | well, it's bounded by some normal computational limits (see "physics of computational superobjects") | 14:26 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, is it really though? | 14:26 |
| andytoshi | bramc: if you can estimate the number of irreversible operations (i.e. bitflips) required for sha256d you can compute it from landauer's limit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer's_principle | 14:26 |
| rusty | op_mul: ? Less than half the work? | 14:26 |
| phantomcircuit | i guess it would be kind of neat to know how close to the absolute limits we are | 14:26 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, Yes at its core usable energy is information theory, and you have to use up information to reset your memory | 14:27 |
| andytoshi | fwiw there are irreversible hash functions (e.g. sha256d where you just leave all the "waste bits" in the output) in which case the minimum J/hash is zero, but can only be obtained at 0 hash/sec | 14:27 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/The%20physics%20of%20information%20processing%20superobjects%20-%20Anders%20Sandberg%20-%201999.pdf | 14:29 |
| kanzure | cc andytoshi | 14:29 |
| kanzure | there's probably a more succinct paper i could cite for this but who cares, it's a fun paper | 14:29 |
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| kanzure | see page 5 section 3.3 i guess | 14:29 |
| op_mul | rusty: well. look at the how miners currently work. they hash up until the nonce, and then cache that for the next 2^32-1 rounds. | 14:30 |
| op_mul | rusty: they then do just the first round on the result of the first hash, and get a pass/fail based on that | 14:30 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, that would make building a near optimal asic pretty trivial actually | 14:30 |
| phantomcircuit | you could do the layout by hand without going insane | 14:31 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: autorouter <3 | 14:31 |
| phantomcircuit | apparently most of the auto layout stuff is pretty lame | 14:31 |
| op_mul | grinds for an hour and makes a board that's 99% vias | 14:31 |
| phantomcircuit | lol | 14:32 |
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| rusty | op_mul: ah yeah, it *would* be pretty trivial with the internal SHA state cached, good point :) | 14:32 |
| op_mul | yeah. *never* use the autorouter. not even for "quick" things. | 14:32 |
| bramc | Apparently we're only six orders of magnitude or so off theoretical limits. | 14:33 |
| bramc | So we're likely to smash right into physical limits in 30 years or so | 14:34 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, RTL -> phsyical layout stuff is apparently largely supppper suboptimal | 14:34 |
| phantomcircuit | i suspect that they're full of assumptions from larger process nodes that are no longer valid | 14:34 |
| phantomcircuit | and nobody wants to mess with them since that could lead to a failed $5m+ tapeout | 14:35 |
| kanzure | bramc: that's okay we'll just move the computation into a black hole | 14:35 |
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| op_mul | probably. main trouble with all PCB autorouters is that they don't do optional stuff very well. if I have a chip with 4 different grounds I could use, I can come up with better solutions than if I have to tell the autorouter "yeah, that one". | 14:36 |
| bramc | When is moore's law supposed to run out of juice? It seems clock speeds have already stopped going up | 14:36 |
| op_mul | they won't do clever stuff at all. if it's stuck, it'll spray vias everywhere. | 14:36 |
| kanzure | ( black hole computation: https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/research/groups/CDMTCS/researchreports/327cris.pdf#page=211 ) | 14:36 |
| kanzure | (page 136) | 14:36 |
| Alanius | kanzure: where are you getting these links from? I can't read fast enough :/ | 14:37 |
| kanzure | Alanius: my collection http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/security/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ | 14:37 |
| kanzure | Alanius: READ FASTER | 14:37 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, transistor density is going up roughly following moore's law, but the power improvements are not | 14:37 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramc, for example 28nm -> 20nm is a 50% die shrink but only results in a 30% power improvement | 14:38 |
| phantomcircuit | (20^2)/(28^2) ~= 51% | 14:38 |
| kanzure | oh also these are favorites (although off topic) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/ | 14:38 |
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| kanzure | haha andytoshi actually beat me to the gun (landauer's principle direct link rather than my indirection through an obscure paper) | 14:40 |
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| andytoshi | kanzure: you mean i don't have to read the obscure paper? | 14:49 |
| kanzure | you don't have to, but it aligns with some of your other interests | 14:49 |
| andytoshi | hmm, i'll make some tea and give it a shot | 14:50 |
| bramc | Seems like nobody's prognosticating the end of Moore's law at this point, at least until around 10nm or so, which is in another three or four years, and there are likely to be tricks for getting below that. Carbon nanotubes can make wires which are around 1nm, so that's probably around the limit, which will be in another 12 years or so | 14:50 |
| bramc | So basically Moore's Law is likely to run out of steam in roughly 2030, at which point the game will be in heat dissipation and energy consumption reductions | 14:51 |
| andytoshi | i thought we were already having serious problems with electron leakage | 14:51 |
| op_mul | same | 14:51 |
| andytoshi | but what do i know (nothing) | 14:51 |
| op_mul | same | 14:51 |
| bramc | andytoshi, We are, but people are figuring out ways to handle them | 14:51 |
| andytoshi | ok, sounds good then :) | 14:52 |
| kanzure | bramc: here are some predictions about moore's law https://github.com/kanzure/uncertainfuture/blob/abe41c24a46c689ec0045a04ccb8a4607131b004/web/ufHelp/Q2.html | 14:52 |
| kanzure | sorry for the format, it was for this thing: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/theuncertainfuture/ | 14:52 |
| kanzure | looks like this when rendered http://theuncertainfuture.com/ufHelp/Q2.html | 14:53 |
| bramc | The prediction of 2030 seems to not have moved much over time | 14:54 |
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| kanzure | i suspect not many people are regularly being rigorous about updating that number though | 14:55 |
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| bramc | The hard limit of 1nm hasn't changed much, and the doubling-every-18-months has been remarkably consistent | 14:55 |
| kanzure | that might be because of industry alignment on roadmaps etc | 14:56 |
| op_mul | problem with all this new stuff is that I can't even use any of today's stuff, let alone tomorrows :( | 14:56 |
| op_mul | here's this new package, it's in QFN and BGA! .. great thanks. | 14:56 |
| bramc | Could be, but there never in history has been such rapid development of any technology ever for a decade, much less 80 years | 14:56 |
| bramc | And there's likely to be a decade or three of reductions in power consumption and improvements in heat dissippation at the end | 14:57 |
| bramc | So the party ends around 2050 or so, and that's around the end of my shift. | 14:58 |
| * op_mul kicks around some BGA ICs | 14:59 | |
| op_mul | hope 2030 brings easier to solder crap. | 14:59 |
| kanzure | maybe meredith will be kind enough to preserve your brain tissue as well | 14:59 |
| op_mul | core i7 in DIP. that's what we really need. | 14:59 |
| kanzure | wait, that's okay to say, right? sorry, i mean good things by it | 14:59 |
| bramc | kanzure, Maybe by then meredith will have gotten the autopsy report for the already preserved brain tissue :-P | 15:00 |
| op_mul | DIP1366 for the i7. maybe that's not plausible. | 15:00 |
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| bramc | Bit of an argument going on on twitter at the moment. Collaborative signatures have space and unlinking advantages, but multisig allows for internal auditing. Of course both should be an option. | 15:04 |
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| op_mul | unlinking? | 15:05 |
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| op_mul | if you're thinking about privacy in bitcoin. just totally forget about it. | 15:08 |
| op_mul | there's is *zero*. | 15:08 |
| bramc | op_mul, bitcoin privacy works better than one would expect | 15:08 |
| bramc | Kind of like how DHTs actually seem to work | 15:08 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramc, there is a reasonable amount of privacy against an unsophisticated attacker who is unable to subpoena records | 15:09 |
| phantomcircuit | there is effectively none (currently) against sophisticated attackers who have the ability to subpoena records | 15:10 |
| op_mul | bramc: you're arguing with somebody who has a significant portion of wallets segmented and identified. | 15:10 |
| bramc | As a matter of practice I don't think any major players have had their identities unveiled by research involving the blockchain | 15:10 |
| bramc | At least, that's what I was told about a year ago | 15:10 |
| op_mul | come on. I can even identify the software people are using to sign transactions with some clarity. | 15:11 |
| bramc | op_mul, I'll want to hear more about that from you later, when my kid isn't pestering me to play a game with him | 15:12 |
| kanzure | yes but you're like the only one paying attention, op_mul | 15:12 |
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| op_mul | even if privacy services work *today* them being broken in the future would be a problem. | 15:13 |
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| rusty | op_mul: I think most people are going for obscurity, rather than real privacy at the moment. But I'm sure you could make a nice living tracking bitcoins for divorce lawyers :) | 15:15 |
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| op_mul | rusty: usually there's not even that. | 15:16 |
| op_mul | bramc: it just comes down to people having made no effort to make sure their software makes the same transaction types as everybody else. | 15:17 |
| rusty | op_mul: you need some known transaction to start with, right? | 15:18 |
| op_mul | rusty: I can cluster without any known trandactions, and then tack an identity on later. most people leak in bitcointalk posts, or on reddit. if there's no connections you can force them by forcing them to merge outputs. | 15:19 |
| rusty | op_mul: I hope that most bitcoin users don't actually post on bitcointalk or reddit, otherwise our userbase is much smaller than I thought... | 15:20 |
| op_mul | some of it can't be automated, there's comments that you can manually process to find via a fuzzy reference. "I traded for $184 BTC yesterday" can actually be a unique transaction result if you are willing for some margin of error. | 15:21 |
| rusty | op_mul: for example, you can't tell me how many satoshi my wife holds. Even though my 1RustyR vanity address is transparent... | 15:21 |
| op_mul | users are also terrible at censoring. they'll often black out amounts and not TXID, or TXID and not amounts, or show one or two letters of an address. | 15:22 |
| op_mul | rusty: you're a localbitcoins user :) | 15:23 |
| rusty | op_mul: nice work :) | 15:23 |
| op_mul | what did you buy from bitpay on september the 24th 2013? | 15:24 |
| op_mul | 0.28 BTC. | 15:24 |
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| rusty | op_mul: best way to meet other bitcoin users in Adelaide, FWIW. And AFAICT, no silk road users.... | 15:25 |
| op_mul | I don't want to know. the point is. this shit is painfully easy. | 15:25 |
| op_mul | there is *zero* privacy. | 15:25 |
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| op_mul | any privacy that exists is just because nobody is interested in funding people to break it. | 15:28 |
| rusty | op_mul: hmm, maybe that tx was humble bundle? I guess my vanity address reuse does weaken others' privacy. | 15:30 |
| kanzure | eh, you talk a big talk, but merged outputs is easy and gives you the game. you should focus on known-bad prngs and user agent strings from logs. | 15:30 |
| rusty | op_mul: Then what do you suggest we do for anonymity? Would homogonizing different programs' txs help much? | 15:32 |
| op_mul | what? | 15:32 |
| op_mul | kanzure: I don't want to steal from people, and user agents have nothing to do with it. | 15:32 |
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| kanzure | rusty: carefully keep track of the number of identifying bits you are leaking, set a threshold that you are comfortable with leaking, and never go beyond it | 15:32 |
| kanzure | op_mul: user agent strings often tell you which bad prng they were using at the time | 15:32 |
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| op_mul | kanzure: again, I don't want to steal from anybody. | 15:33 |
| kanzure | you don't have to steal from them | 15:33 |
| rusty | kanzure: I was referring to "we" here as the bitcoin community as a whole, not "me". If I cared, I wouldn't use a vanity address... | 15:33 |
| kanzure | oh | 15:33 |
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| op_mul | kanzure: that's obviously not acceptable behaviour. | 15:33 |
| kanzure | not stealing from them is unacceptable? | 15:34 |
| op_mul | rusty: anonymity is just not something Bitcoin can do. | 15:34 |
| tacotime | yup. if you want anonymity, ideally don't transact on the blockchain. i hear cash is good. | 15:35 |
| op_mul | imagine I have an address cluster | 15:36 |
| kanzure | i don't have to imagine that, we all know you do :P | 15:36 |
| op_mul | well, just looking at the times of the transactions within it I can work out roughly where that person lives | 15:36 |
| kanzure | yeah | 15:36 |
| tacotime | and even enhanced privacy chains like monero are still vulnerable to temporal snooping issues. | 15:37 |
| kanzure | i like to refer to http://www.gwern.net/Death%20Note%20Anonymity | 15:37 |
| op_mul | which is super neat, it means that given some other fuzzy sources you can do some additional weeding. | 15:37 |
| kanzure | unfortunately there's no particularly better overview of "leaky bits are what detectives use" | 15:37 |
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| rusty | op_mul: timezone information would be an example of a leak which becomes less useful if bitcoin usage increases; it's the ones which scale which worry me more. | 15:44 |
| op_mul | well it's all useful as part of fuzzy matches | 15:47 |
| op_mul | if I have a proof address = person then they are taken out of the matching set | 15:47 |
| op_mul | if I have something like, a $100 USD payment on a particular date, then you need to be doing gritty stuff like timezone working out and stuff like that. I haven't even coded that up yet because I see so little value in it. | 15:48 |
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| * op_mul shrugs | 15:50 | |
| op_mul | at any rate. my point is just that if someone with no funding and little motivation can do it, the people who actually have funding will be able to do it a hell of a lot better. | 15:51 |
| rusty | op_mul: sure, if you know the amount you might be able to determine what they bought (and thus who from, even if via bitpay), but that too gets harder with scale. | 15:51 |
| rusty | op_mul: and my point is that we should be whacking these moles in order. | 15:51 |
| op_mul | some are doable. some are not. | 15:53 |
| rusty | op_mul: sure, timezone and amount are hard. But making standard transactions indistinguishable shouldn't be. | 15:54 |
| op_mul | given the number of transactions and wallets which don't use compressed keys (no computational cost, lower fees, smaller transactions), it doesn't make me that hoepful other things will change for the better. | 15:54 |
| op_mul | blockchain.info just only a few weeks ago made the one line change they needed to start using compressed point pubkeys. | 15:55 |
| rusty | op_mul: they'll make an effort once it becomes a well-known issue, I think. Like any security :) | 15:56 |
| op_mul | they still haven't removed their broken RC4 based RNG, so I won't hold my breath. | 15:57 |
| rusty | op_mul: yeah, I was surprised how long it took Armory to support compressed keys... hmm, maybe it still doesn't. | 15:58 |
| op_mul | it doesn't. | 15:58 |
| rusty | op_mul: A BIP might be overkill, but gathering wallet privacy "best practice" in one place might be a start? | 16:02 |
| bramc | By compressed keys, you means one where the secure hash is given? | 16:05 |
| op_mul | no. EC points can be "compressed" by just showing the sign of Y rather than the whole integer. | 16:06 |
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| rusty | bramc: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Signatures | 16:07 |
| bramc | Oh right. That would seem to be a ridiculous no-brainer | 16:07 |
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| op_mul | up until recently the majority of all signatures were from non-compressed point keys. | 16:08 |
| rusty | bramc: yeah, but they weren't used originally. So now it requires upgrading wallet software, which means new wallets won't work with old software... | 16:09 |
| op_mul | it's supported in core since like 2011 | 16:09 |
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| rusty | op_mul: hey, that's only 4 years, don't rush us! | 16:13 |
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| op_mul | rusty: https://github.com/blockchain/My-Wallet/commit/1c04bef8fe2afb5f20035067d42a2277cdef82cb#diff-f3aa2b02abfd24669b81e0d6a8f54557R722 | 16:14 |
| phantomcircuit | ha it's literally like 8 lines | 16:15 |
| rusty | phantomcircuit: sure, but that's changing the default, not supporting them in the first place. | 16:16 |
| op_mul | their library supported it since 2011. | 16:16 |
| op_mul | you see, users panic when they export their private keys and it doesn't begin with a 5 | 16:17 |
| gmaxwell | op_mul: likely since the day it was written. | 16:17 |
| gmaxwell | there is basically nothing to do to support it in most software. | 16:17 |
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| op_mul | yes. you can see why I don't think there's any use bugging wallet devs about minor privacy quirks. | 16:18 |
| rusty | op_mul: no, you want their users to do that. Which means that they have to know about it... | 16:19 |
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| op_mul | rusty: I think I would have a hard time convincing people to be upset about it. | 16:22 |
| rusty | op_mul: I believe the way modern kids do it is to register www.areweprivateyet.com, which takes a txid. | 16:24 |
| op_mul | rusty: I have no intention of putting myself at risk for the sake of other peoples privacy. | 16:28 |
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| bramc | op_mul, I would hope that most bitcoin users aren't posting about their transactions to bitcointalk and reddit | 16:57 |
| op_mul | bramc: you'd be surprised. | 16:58 |
| bramc | That doesn't bode well for the total number of bitcoin users or how mainstream they are | 16:58 |
| op_mul | I think there's a lot lower use of bitcoin than most people estimate. a large amount of the transaction volume is spammy or otherwise obviously non-human. | 17:00 |
| bramc | That sounds likely. There's a lack of actual commerce one can point to getting enabled by bitcoin | 17:07 |
| bramc | And the price differences on the exchanges indicate sky-high counterparty risk | 17:08 |
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| bramc | It will be interesting to see what happens when transaction limits start getting hit. My guess is that transaction costs will rise only slightly, because most of what's happening is garbage, but it will be enough to obliterate the colored coins | 17:13 |
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| op_mul | bramc: I don't imagine it will be for a long time | 17:19 |
| bramc | It's roughly a factor of 5 off right now | 17:19 |
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| petertodd | bramc: wtf do you think colored coins will give a damn about tx costs? | 17:41 |
| petertodd | bramc: you realise it's easy to do them in ways where moving one "colored coin" is encoded essentially identically to moving bitcoin value, with identical costs | 17:42 |
| bramc | petertodd, colored coins generally are using de minimis nominal values for transfers. If transaction costs became significant they couldn't even do transfers | 17:42 |
| bramc | And why are you cursing at me? I've been making mild comments and you've been going into a rage. | 17:43 |
| petertodd | bramc: huh? the "nominal value" has nothing to do with the value of the asset being moved | 17:43 |
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| petertodd | bramc: and don't think this is a "rage" - I'm just incredibly confused how you would think that | 17:44 |
| bramc | If a colored coin works by having it use a bitcoin which is 1/100th its 'real' value, then its transaction costs are 100 times what the equivalent bitcoin transaction would be | 17:44 |
| petertodd | no, the costs in terms of real value are identical | 17:44 |
| bramc | That isn't my understanding of how colored coins work. They basically mooch off bitcoin's network and pay transaction fees in bitcoins | 17:45 |
| petertodd | if I'm representing a pound of gold with a single satoshi, I don't care that it costs me 10,000 satoshi's - worth a hundredith of a gram of gold - to move that pound of gold | 17:45 |
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| petertodd | s/pound/kilogram/ lol | 17:45 |
| bramc | But you need to get those satoshis from somewhere to do the transfer, and you don't have it | 17:46 |
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| petertodd | what's hard about just exchanging some gold for bitcoin? | 17:47 |
| bramc | I suppose you could start moving in real bitcoins to pay the fees. Not sure how well the colored coins support that. It certainly changes things when transaction fees get large enough that you have to start keeping some amount of them around | 17:47 |
| bramc | It looks kind of weird if colored coin transactions are almost entirely transaction fees | 17:47 |
| pigeons | ? isnt the point that they are almost entirely transaction fees | 17:48 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, they correctly support that specifically because of the transaction fees issue | 17:48 |
| bramc | Oh, okay, it won't be that much of a change then I guess | 17:48 |
| petertodd | bramc: yeah, that's trivial... in fact the "colored coin" implementation I'm working on doesn't even call them colord coins anymore - it just uses bitcoin as an anti-doublespend mechanism, quite possibly entirely separate from the logical DAG of asset movement proofs | 17:49 |
| petertodd | that's why I said the danger of this "bitcoin 2.0" stuff is pretty much all the btc2.0 applications are far more valuable per transaction than actually moving bitcoins around - e.g. if securing an audit cost $50/tx lots of companies wouldn't even blink | 17:50 |
| bramc | Well, you could pool together a bunch of transactions to a single hash root... | 17:50 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, as petertodd is saying things like counterparty aren't even colored coins; they simply use bitcoin to provide ordering and withholding resistance | 17:50 |
| petertodd | bramc: exactly, I'll be getting around to implementing exactly that at some point | 17:50 |
| phantomcircuit | and they have some degree of censorship resistance in that if you find any miner willing to mine them it's likely they'll en dup in the blockchain | 17:51 |
| bramc | Ah, I see your point now. Twitter is a lousy medium for having a discussion. | 17:51 |
| petertodd | phantomcircuit: and remember counterparty is just the beginning of this stuff - anti-doublespend doesn't even need anything other than hashes to be in the blockchain | 17:51 |
| phantomcircuit | petertodd, sure but then you need to incentivize people not to withhold | 17:52 |
| petertodd | phantomcircuit: it's *very* easy to design these systems in ways that are 100% provably unblockable without explicitly whitelisting allowed btc transactions, and heck, you can arrange for that whitelisting to require all users to give up their private keys... | 17:52 |
| petertodd | at state S1, commit to private key Q that controls txout T1, spend that txout in tx X1, which in turn commits to state S2, since spending T1 is a one-shot deal you can't fraudulently create state S2' - tada, secure asset transfer! | 17:55 |
| petertodd | to force whitelits to have users give up thier private keys, make part of commitment in S1 be the private key itself | 17:56 |
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| petertodd | to force make anti-censorship have colatteral damage, commit to a n-of-m set of txouts, the minority unrelated to the protocol, and now miners have to prevent all of them from being spent, thus freezing unrelated users' funds in their effort to block the protocol | 17:57 |
| petertodd | *to force censorship to have | 17:57 |
| bramc | petertodd, Do you have a link explaining this? I'd like to spend some time thinking through it later? | 18:00 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: wouldn't it be better if the guy who actually owned the gold handled all this? What is the point to having a trusty asset on a trustless blockchain? | 18:00 |
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| petertodd | bramc: haven't written this up properly yet; writing software to do this | 18:01 |
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| petertodd | justanotheruser: outsourcing accounting to the blockchain/software means the issuer doesn't need to be always online, means they aren't in direct control of xfers, etc. etc. | 18:02 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, nominally it makes no sense; but in practice there are a number of reasons for doing it (some of which petertodd has outlined above) | 18:05 |
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| kanzure | it would be interesting to have a correctness proof for certain kinds of audits [as long as you plug in some correctness assumption about bitcoin consensus maybe] | 18:07 |
| kanzure | i don't have a good sense for what percent of audit events haven't had appropriate cryptography identified yet | 18:09 |
| kanzure | i mean the types of audit actions (check a balance, check validity, check permissions against some external record? what else do actual audits need?) | 18:09 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: It seems like the use cases for that are narrow. You must both have strong trust for the issuer and weak trust for any other authority in the world that could host the transaction system. The owner of the gold would also be choosing to leave his customers with all the weaknesses of distributed consesus rather than having a strong centralized consensus that is near instant (for a potentially higher fee). Is ... | 18:10 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, my first guess would be approximately 0% have had sound cryptography applied to them | 18:10 |
| justanotheruser | ... there something I'm missing? | 18:10 |
| kanzure | phantomcircuit: not what i meant, although yes i agree | 18:10 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, the issuer can be financial secure but technically incompetent | 18:10 |
| kanzure | i mean audit actions themselves. for example, there must be exotic sorts of audit actions that aren't covered by "check permissions, check validity, check balance". | 18:10 |
| phantomcircuit | which is indeed the most common situation | 18:11 |
| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: right, the narrow case is where the issuer decides not to host, gives up tx fees and you don't want to trust anyone else with your money at the cost of the weaknesses of decentralized consensus | 18:11 |
| bramc | petertodd, Maybe there should be an OP_VERIFY_COLORED_SIDECHAIN | 18:11 |
| justanotheruser | bramc: I don't see why there would need to be a separate opcode | 18:12 |
| bramc | justanotheruser, So you could peg | 18:12 |
| justanotheruser | (separate from OP_SIDECHAIN_VERIFY or whatever its called) | 18:12 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, there's no reason that a system using bitcoin for ordering couldn't replace bitcoin with another chain | 18:12 |
| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: did I imply otherwise? | 18:13 |
| kanzure | cross-organization audits can be assisted by public crypto auditing stuff | 18:13 |
| kanzure | for example, maybe your audit only passes if all your suppliers are also passing | 18:13 |
| phantomcircuit | no, i was trying to convey that building the system to be strong enough to work correctly when used in the bitcoin consensus is potentially beneficial to running without bitcoin as it reduces the technical requirements for the outside party to a dumb signing oracle | 18:14 |
| kanzure | i suppose the most useful thing is if you could extend the proofs to an off-blockchain scenario, where you could be reasonably sure about other book data, perhaps a system of fraud proofs and bonds linked to generated audit statements, dunno how this would look. | 18:18 |
| kanzure | *fraud proofs to redeem posted bond amounts... someone suggested this i dunno who. | 18:18 |
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| justanotheruser | Also, what promises of assets are reasonably fungible when some authority is holding them? I think the fact that it would usually be large banks holding the reserves in order for the gold to be tradeable (I don't trust gold held by some random guys in Ohio I've never met) makes the set of colored coins uses even smaller. In one case you are just buying the gold as a store of value and you aren't transacting. The issuer ... | 18:22 |
| justanotheruser | ... doesn't need to be online, because you won't be transacting it. In the other case a bank would be handling the gold/other asset and a large central authority can manage a server and reap the rewards from transaction fees with their economy of scale. | 18:22 |
| justanotheruser | excuse my difficult to read english. | 18:22 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, except you're trusting that entity to not only actually have the correct amount of gold, but also to run the trading system and not screw it up | 18:24 |
| phantomcircuit | as i said before these are rare to find in one place | 18:24 |
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| justanotheruser | The incentives for getting transaction fees is pretty high. | 18:27 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, transaction fees in normal financial systems are typically too small to care about | 18:27 |
| phantomcircuit | except for payment card systems | 18:28 |
| phantomcircuit | those are lulz worthy | 18:28 |
| justanotheruser | hmm | 18:28 |
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| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, for example the fee that your bank charges for electronic ach payments is entirely meaningless to them | 18:29 |
| phantomcircuit | for evidence of this look at what they charge you to handle paper checks: $0.00 | 18:29 |
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| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: I assume it is an anti-DoS feature? | 18:30 |
| justanotheruser | err wrong word | 18:30 |
| justanotheruser | I assume it is just so it is costly for me to abuse it | 18:30 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, i think it was just a "because we can and fuck you" type fee | 18:31 |
| phantomcircuit | like telecom companies that put a bunch of fees and taxes and stuff at the end of your bill most of which isn't actually taxes and is just fees they're charging you without cause | 18:31 |
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| bramc | The biggest banking fees, at least in the US, are made from charging poor people for going over limit. The ethics of this is exceedingly dubious... | 18:32 |
| phantomcircuit | iirc an ACH transaction costs them something like $0.000045 | 18:32 |
| justanotheruser | anyways, it is strange, but I guess sidechains will be useful for colored coins despite trustlessness since the bitcoin network has little downtime | 18:32 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, i strongly suspect that mostly has to do with trying to get rid of them as customers without actually just closing their accounts | 18:32 |
| bramc | Using the bitcoin blockchain reduces the changes that an alt network will die from disinterest | 18:32 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, no the banks make good money off of them | 18:32 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, i kind of doubt it actually | 18:33 |
| justanotheruser | bramc: That isn't a concern of mine really. I don't think assets will account for more than a small fraction of bitcoin fees at any time | 18:33 |
| justanotheruser | how often do you exchange promises of assets and how often do you exchange money | 18:33 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, the interesting question is what % of revenues they represent, im guessing it's < 1% | 18:35 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, Probably depends on whether you look at the financial institution as a whole or just the retail banking part | 18:36 |
| bramc | As a matter of practice there are lots of people who would be paying less in feel if they used prepaid debit cards for everything. Or maybe a paypal card, not sure how those work | 18:36 |
| justanotheruser | I think we should consider how much they will account for in the future. I probably trade a stock on average once a month (and afaik, that is the only promise based asset I own) I probably make 5-6 monetary transactions a day. | 18:36 |
| phantomcircuit | of they could you know... just have overdraft turned off | 18:37 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, That's a relatively new thing, and banks trick people into turning it on by presenting it as 'overdraft protection insurance' or whatnot | 18:38 |
| justanotheruser | if you don't want to go into debt, don't sign a contract that allows it :/ | 18:38 |
| bramc | I think credit cards make on the order of 25 cents per transaction, it's almost entirely legislatively set, they make all their money off lobbying to be allowed to charge higher fees | 18:38 |
| justanotheruser | bramc: you sure there is a legislative limit? | 18:39 |
| justanotheruser | that seems silly, market forces could easily drive out someone charging too much | 18:39 |
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| bramc | No it's a natural monopoly, they mostly have to avoid becoming a regulated entity | 18:40 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, iirc it's only debit cards that have legislated limits | 18:40 |
| phantomcircuit | maybe not | 18:40 |
| justanotheruser | monopoly? theres visa, mastercard, discover, american express... | 18:40 |
| bramc | It's mostly visa and mastercard, and they collude like nobody's business, and you can't really afford to not accept either of those | 18:41 |
| bramc | discover and especially american express are rejected at a lot of places | 18:41 |
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| justanotheruser | bramc: if they made their prices super high, you could afford to reject them, in fact, I bet businesses would start charging a fee if you used them | 18:42 |
| bramc | The biggest problem is that visa and mastercard contractually prohibit vendors from passing the transaction fees on to consumers, which is flargrant monopoly practices, but they've got enough pull to keep the law arm of the law from clamping down on them | 18:42 |
| bramc | And then of course there are some cards with cash-back bonuses. Blech. | 18:42 |
| justanotheruser | then businesses would start taking cash | 18:42 |
| bramc | There's a reason why most businesses still happily take cash | 18:43 |
| MRL-Relay | [othe] are you sure they do? i always charge according to the payment method. visa is more expensive for example than bankwire | 18:43 |
| bramc | Who and where just said that? | 18:43 |
| justanotheruser | I don't think regulation of credit cards are necessary when there is already a free alternative | 18:43 |
| justanotheruser | I have an "othe" in my name? | 18:44 |
| bramc | Mostly their practices are kept somewhat under control because of the possibility of going cash-only. There are obvious problems with cash though. For example, the police might steal your money. | 18:44 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramc, vendors are now free to price discriminate based on payment method | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Tue Jan 20 00:00:29 2015 | ||
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