| --- Log opened Tue Jan 20 00:00:29 2015 | ||
| bramc | phantomcircuit, Is that a new thing? I'm pretty sure I heard that the contracts disallowed passing on fees, but that was a few years ago | 00:00 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramc, visa/mastercard has lost a string of antitrust cases many of which went to the supreme court | 00:02 |
| bramc | Oh good, that cheers me up | 00:03 |
| bramc | Sanity prevails | 00:03 |
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| amiller | andytoshi, i can't figure out why your ringsig-blinding is supposed to work | 07:53 |
| amiller | the point is to prevent parties who own the 'chaff' coins in a transaction from proving that their coin wasn't the actual coin being spent | 07:53 |
| amiller | i see how adding a blinding factor to each of the keys prevents them from proving that the ring signature was generated that way, | 07:54 |
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| amiller | but can't they still prove that their key image isn't the key image that was spent? | 07:54 |
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| amiller | even though you make it so that the ring signature is a representation proof of (P1+Q1, or P2+Q2, or ... etc), and further that you know the exponent for all the blinding factor Q's.... I think the key image is still I(P_actual)^x. | 07:57 |
| amiller | er I = x H(P_actual) | 07:57 |
| amiller | so, if you save your 'x', you can prove you weren't involved later on | 07:58 |
| amiller | for posterity, this comment refers to https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/ringsig-blinding.txt which is dated sep'14 | 07:58 |
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| gmaxwell | Yes, but you must do that at the time of signing. | 07:59 |
| gmaxwell | And in particular if you weren't involved you can't prove you weren't involved. | 08:00 |
| amiller | gmaxwell, suppose the real coin is P1 and I owned the coin P2.... | 08:01 |
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| amiller | that means I know an x2, such that P2 = g^x2, and H(P2)^x2 = I2 which is not equal to the I used in that transaction | 08:01 |
| gmaxwell | (this scheme itself is not so useful for cryptocurrency usage, so talking about coins isn't so great) | 08:01 |
| amiller | alright swap public key for coin | 08:02 |
| gmaxwell | (because it breaks the ability to use the key images to prevent double spending. It's useful for voting like schemes) | 08:02 |
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| amiller | oh. | 08:02 |
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| amiller | maybe this has abolutely nothing to do with cryptonote and i totally misunderstood the intended application of this. | 08:02 |
| gmaxwell | Yes, that has nothing to do with cryptonote. It's a comment related to a scheme I have for selecting pseudonymous trusted parties. E.g. "I run this oracle. -- {one of satoshi, fbi, gmaxwell}" and make it so that satoshi and/or fbi cannot prove that they were not the author of the message. | 08:04 |
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| gmaxwell | (and obviously not me either; so we can all plausably deny authorship.) | 08:04 |
| amiller | okey doke. i sort of read that and brs-arbitrary-output-sizes.txt and just hallucinated that the topic of both was crypotnote enhancements | 08:04 |
| amiller | sorry! | 08:04 |
| gmaxwell | There is a thing related to cryptonode that andytoshi and I were working on. ... yea that thing. | 08:04 |
| gmaxwell | yea, the genesis of brs-arbitrary-output-sizes.txt is that I first came up with the blinding for that election application; there was a potential attack (when you don't prove knoweldge of the discrete log of the blinding factor), and a way to use it produtively showed up (the value / script blinding). | 08:07 |
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| andytoshi | amiller: sure, it is possible to go out-of-band and prove that your key image was not used (eg if you secret key is x you produce a NIZK that DL of g^x is same as H(g^x)^x) | 09:09 |
| andytoshi | it is also possible to just reveal your x, and there is no way to block that | 09:10 |
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| andytoshi | but i'm not sure the motivation of this attack? you'd have to know something about a specific tx that you were linked into and know who to give the NIZK to...the point here was to avoid these kind of info leakage in ordinary use | 09:11 |
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| andytoshi | one moment actually, i don't remember how much gmaxwell's blinding scheme does :) | 09:11 |
| andytoshi | oh wait, i'm being stupid, i'm talking about something else entirely, ignore me | 09:12 |
| andytoshi | same hallucination as amiller. must be some andrew-targeting chemical agent out there.. | 09:13 |
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| gmaxwell | andytoshi: well I didn't remember it either, I went and read the thing amiller linked to before commenting. | 10:55 |
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| andytoshi | last night i posted the link to the BRS stuff, i thought it was the same link (and amiller was replying to it) | 11:12 |
| fluffypony | http://safecurves.cr.yp.to | 11:18 |
| fluffypony | apparently secp256k1 doesn't meet all of the SafeCurve requirements | 11:18 |
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| gmaxwell | fluffypony: this is old and uninteresting; some of the 'requirements' are completely uninteresting to us (and maybe just about everyone). Likewise, I could create a similar marketing page what the ed25519 (and related) curves fail; for example; they have a cofactor. | 11:19 |
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| gmaxwell | (which has resulted in completely broken protocols several times in the past, e.g. PAKE schemes.) | 11:19 |
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| fluffypony | sure, I just didn't realise DJB had a curves page until now | 11:20 |
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| gmaxwell | fluffypony: I'd commented on it at some depth at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=380482.msg4082496#msg4082496 | 11:34 |
| phantomcircuit | i do like his domain name though | 11:35 |
| phantomcircuit | that's super clever | 11:35 |
| fluffypony | well it is DJB, pretty sure he was given that domain before the Internet even existed (I kid) | 11:36 |
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| earlz | Have there been any significant "wishlist" type things for a transaction v2 format or some such? | 12:56 |
| earlz | I've seen one proposal to make it so everything is effectively p2sh (ie, there is no output script, just a scripthash) | 12:56 |
| earlz | but other than that nothing | 12:56 |
| andytoshi | earlz: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist | 12:57 |
| andytoshi | the latter is not on bitcoin.ninja, i will submit a pr.. | 12:58 |
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| earlz | yea, I've seen the hardfork wishlist, but nothing in there covering transactions | 12:59 |
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| bramc | earlz, schnorr-based signatures, to allow collaborative signature generation | 13:12 |
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| earlz | schnorr.. not heard of that one. I'll have to look it up | 13:14 |
| earlz | do you have a reference for how it applies to bitcoin? | 13:14 |
| andytoshi | earlz: it's a drop-in replacement for ECDSA, the wikipedia article is not bad i think. it's roughly "choose a nonce k, then sig is (s, e) where e = H(m||kG) and s = k - ex" | 13:16 |
| bramc | The main schnorr contender is ed25519. Perhaps the only serious contender. | 13:16 |
| andytoshi | earlz: it is cheaper to verify than ECDSA and is provably secure, unlike ECDSA. we also have a proof that it is "strong" i.e. will not cause transaction malleability by itself | 13:16 |
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| bramc | andytoshi, And it allows collaborative signature generation! | 13:17 |
| earlz | Has there been any practical proof that ecdsa could possibly have multiple valid signatures? (ie, transaction malleability) | 13:18 |
| andytoshi | bramc: oh, right, that's a big one! | 13:18 |
| earlz | what do you mean collaborative? | 13:18 |
| andytoshi | earlz: well, if (s, r) is a valid ecdsa sig then (-s, r) is also one. but other than that (and it's an easy one to block by halving the allowable range for s), we don't know of any | 13:18 |
| bramc | earlz, Multiple counterparties can generate a public key signature together in such a way that particular subsets of them can do the signature but no single one of them can. | 13:19 |
| earlz | what benefit does that bring over multisig? | 13:19 |
| andytoshi | earlz: collaborative means we can create a 2-of-2 (or n-of-n multisig) by adding our e values, signing the same message, then adding the resultant s values | 13:19 |
| bramc | It allows the transactions to be smaller and less identifiable | 13:19 |
| andytoshi | earlz: then you get a single signature that cannot be distinguished from a boring old 1-of-1 | 13:19 |
| earlz | hmm interesting | 13:20 |
| earlz | is that scheme at all proved secure? or is it relatively new? | 13:21 |
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| andytoshi | earlz: it's secure. not sure there is any proof written up, it'd be really gross because the security properties for multisig are always really technical (formalizing things like anti-collusion is hard) | 13:22 |
| earlz | well, I mean like peer-reviewed and all that | 13:23 |
| earlz | I'm not super knowledgable about how crypto works at that low of alevel | 13:23 |
| andytoshi | does folklore count as peer review? :P | 13:23 |
| andytoshi | the short answer is yes, many people have thrown this idea around, and it's used as a component of other cryptosystems (e.g. attribute-based encryption) which are proven secure and properly peer-reviewed | 13:24 |
| bramc | Using ed25519 instead of ecdsa is hardly considered out there at this point. It should probably be the default for new systems, although there's some caveat about how to implement heirarchical wallets which I haven't learned. | 13:25 |
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| op_mul | bramc: there's some shitcoins using it. | 13:27 |
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| tromp | so clearly not every shitcoin component is shitty | 13:29 |
| op_mul | bramc: here you go, here's some nutty anti-science and es25519 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=881427.0 | 13:29 |
| op_mul | it uses 64 bit timestamps! 320 bit hashes! | 13:29 |
| tromp | shockingly, it doesn't claim to be "super-secure" | 13:30 |
| tromp | i mean super-sekure :-) | 13:31 |
| op_mul | tromp: sorry, here's a better one for you. it has proof of node uptime! proof of identity! written in nodejs! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654463.0 | 13:32 |
| op_mul | there's a few of these proof of time ones. they don't seem to have any method of consensus, every node just tries to connect to every other node and measure it's uptime. | 13:33 |
| bramc | op_mul, You mean proof of uptime, not proof of time? I've been talking about proofs of time, and people look at me like I've grown a second head. | 13:34 |
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| bramc | But proofs of time are in some sense straightforward. Proofs of uptime sound snake oily. | 13:35 |
| op_mul | I can't tell you for sure because the "whitepaper" is nonsense and the code is heavily obfsucated javascript. | 13:35 |
| op_mul | https://github.com/crypti/whitepaper#method-1---proof-of-time | 13:35 |
| bramc | op_mul, The amount of gibberish out there is truly astounding | 13:39 |
| bramc | And it's hard to argue against, because it all sounds like technical mumbo-jumbo to the general public | 13:40 |
| op_mul | there's a financial incentive. | 13:41 |
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| bramc | The proposals for having a utxo root per block overestimate its load on the protocol. The utxo root can be generated canonically from previous transactions, so it doesn't need to be sent over the wire | 13:47 |
| bramc | It isn't entirely clear what the benefits are though. Mostly so light clients can verify that a utxos hasn't been spent? | 13:49 |
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| gmaxwell | bramc: it would let you hot-start with SPV like security without reviewing the past state. | 13:51 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, It isn't clear how much smaller the current tree is likely to be than the historical tree | 13:52 |
| bramc | But fair enough | 13:53 |
| gmaxwell | But maintaining a committed UTXO set is fairly expensive; (forget the bandwdith: as you note, you normally never send it.-- it's expensive because you have to keep around the interior nodes of the tree or updates all require recomputing everything; and any update has to touch log(n) interior nodes) | 13:53 |
| gmaxwell | UTXO set in bitcoin is enormously smaller than the history. | 13:53 |
| gmaxwell | For one, it doesn't have signatures. But unsurprisingly, coins tend to get spent. So last graph I saw of the UTXO set size looked quasi-log while block size over time looked linear. | 13:54 |
| gmaxwell | Right now in bitcoin it's a ratio of about 600MB to 30GB. | 13:54 |
| bramc | There's an interesting wrinkle if you assume that you want sharding and that the transaction set is so big in any one block that it needs to be sharded as well. You wind up having to put each utxos both in the position it came from and all the places it's going to and it's declared invalid if it isn't in all of them | 13:55 |
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| bramc | hmm, interesting. It isn't clear whether including a utxo root in each block is 'worth it' though, even for a brand new coin | 13:56 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: weeee http://statoshi.info/#dashboard/temp/oekOxR4vQf6JmgwRWhO1Xw | 13:58 |
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| gmaxwell | bramc: yes, it's not clear. There are also other possible commitment structures. | 14:01 |
| gmaxwell | op_mul: how to lie with graps example 1231231? (non-zero x-origin) | 14:02 |
| op_mul | yeah but it's the only source I know of :( | 14:03 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, Perhaps not worth it purely because it's an impediment to software support | 14:03 |
| gmaxwell | everything is an impediment to software. :) | 14:03 |
| phantomcircuit | is there any reason to select something other than secp256k1 for a new project that needs compact signatures? | 14:04 |
| op_mul | hipster cryptographer? | 14:04 |
| bramc | While there's no obvious inheritance from BitTorrent to BitCoin, whoever created it seems to have absorbed the lesson of not optimizing things which don't need optimizing. | 14:04 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, passing interest this is only at the prototype stage | 14:05 |
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| phantomcircuit | but once i've written it in i doubt anybody is ever going to change/question the decision | 14:05 |
| op_mul | there's places satoshi really should have optimised, like not using DER encoded EC signatures. | 14:05 |
| phantomcircuit | so i figured i'd ask | 14:05 |
| phantomcircuit | i think the DER encoded ec signatures are actually pretty close to optimal encoding when they're actually DER and not BER | 14:06 |
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| phantomcircuit | iirc there's like 1 byte wasted | 14:06 |
| bramc | op_mul, Okay, maybe the bencoding lesson wasn't learned | 14:06 |
| op_mul | I'm not sure why they're encoded at all | 14:06 |
| op_mul | the sigs are two integers | 14:06 |
| op_mul | I mean, I know why they are, it's because that's what openssl gave out and satoshi treated openssl like a black box. | 14:07 |
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| phantomcircuit | op_mul, it's ASN.1 SEQUENCE [ INT, INT ] | 14:08 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: there are 8 bytes of overhead... you could get back several of those with a lot of computation if you wanted to though. | 14:08 |
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| gmaxwell | (go go ASN1) | 14:08 |
| bramc | A funny thing in BitTorrent history: Originally peer IPs were handing back as 'x.y.z.w', which got a bit big. Eventually people got annoyed at this and were trying to compress them and whatnot. I looked into it and found out that IP addresses are just four integers and created 'compact' encoding. Which is how it would have been done to begin with, had I know that IPs were just four integers. | 14:08 |
| gmaxwell | the actual signature itself is 64 bytes exactly. | 14:08 |
| phantomcircuit | oh i forgot that the sequence has it's own type | 14:08 |
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| phantomcircuit | er length | 14:08 |
| op_mul | bramc: four? it's one 32bit integer. | 14:09 |
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| bramc | op_mul, It's four 8 bit integers :-) | 14:09 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, iirc it's 2 bytes for the seq and then 2 bytes each for the integers | 14:10 |
| sipa | it's actually a 32-bit integer | 14:10 |
| phantomcircuit | where do the other 2 bytes comes from | 14:10 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: to really blow your mind, many programs will just take a 32 bit integer (no dots) | 14:10 |
| sipa | you can convert an IPv4 address in dotted quad to a single integer | 14:10 |
| sipa | typing that integer into your browser will _work_ | 14:10 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, You mean a base 10 ascii integer? | 14:10 |
| sipa | yes | 14:10 |
| bramc | AUGH | 14:11 |
| phantomcircuit | oh im forgetting some bytes for a type delimiter arne't i | 14:11 |
| sipa | http://2130706433 == localhost | 14:11 |
| op_mul | bramc: https://1841923523 | 14:11 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. type ping 2130706433 | 14:11 |
| gmaxwell | ah I was too slow. | 14:11 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, heh | 14:12 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: 6425673729 works too :) | 14:12 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, Is there a writeup somewhere of the gotchas with using heirarchical wallets with ed25519? Hopefully with fixes? | 14:12 |
| op_mul | (knowing that trick is great for building filter bypasses, almost nobody knows you can make a valid URL without a single period in it) | 14:13 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, no i dont think im missing any overhead | 14:15 |
| phantomcircuit | there's 6 bytes of overhead | 14:15 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: the largest canonical DER encoded signature is 72 bytes. The actual data is 64 bytes. You have to do some stupid 1 stuffing. | 14:16 |
| phantomcircuit | ohh | 14:17 |
| phantomcircuit | null byte padding to indicate signedness | 14:17 |
| phantomcircuit | so mucking about with it i could definitely get a guaranteed 64 byte signature or worst case 65 bytes but with the ability to grind for shorter signatures | 14:18 |
| gmaxwell | with a lot of grinding. yes. | 14:19 |
| phantomcircuit | ha | 14:21 |
| phantomcircuit | just took a look at petertodd'd python-bitcoinlib | 14:22 |
| phantomcircuit | does signature verification by importing openssl | 14:22 |
| sipa | duh | 14:22 |
| phantomcircuit | was hoping to get a free pointer towards a decent library | 14:22 |
| phantomcircuit | not for ceonsensus purposes | 14:22 |
| phantomcircuit | consensus | 14:23 |
| sipa | lol | 14:23 |
| gmaxwell | optimal grinding requires somewhat tricky code, since you get a huge benefit from grinding both the nonce and the message seperately. | 14:26 |
| bramc | Does this mean that bip32 is busted? http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/998 | 14:27 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. you grind until you get a small r, then using that small r you grind the message until s is small. | 14:27 |
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| gmaxwell | Absolutely not. | 14:27 |
| sipa | bramc: that vulnerability is even mentioned explicitly in the bip | 14:27 |
| op_mul | didn't vitalik find it first? | 14:28 |
| sipa | no | 14:28 |
| bramc | What's the point of having child private keys if you can derive the master private key with them? | 14:28 |
| op_mul | (sorry, meant to be a joke) | 14:28 |
| gmaxwell | op_mul: I am not laughing at your shenangans. | 14:28 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: This is explained in the BIP. | 14:28 |
| sipa | master public keys must be treated as secret | 14:29 |
| gmaxwell | BIP32 does not give you multiple _private keys_, it gives you multiple addresses. | 14:29 |
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| gmaxwell | And the multiple addresses are indistuishable to someone who does not know the master public key. | 14:30 |
| Adlai | you mean impossible to correlate? | 14:31 |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: they're indistinguishable from random. (which is a stronger criteria than impossible to coorelate) | 14:31 |
| bramc | Okay, I understand the caveat that the master public key must be treated as secret. You probably should never derive it in the first place | 14:34 |
| op_mul | sipa: sadly, there's people making wallets which leak the MPK to remote parties :( | 14:34 |
| sipa | that's fine if you never share any private key | 14:34 |
| sipa | (and most use cases do not require sharing private keys) | 14:34 |
| op_mul | and if you don't mind your privavy going up the shitter. | 14:35 |
| sipa | well, sharing the master pubkey also has privacy concerns | 14:35 |
| bramc | How are wallets supposed to notice that a heirarchical wallet derived payment was sent to them? | 14:35 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, lol community lore | 14:35 |
| phantomcircuit | what a crock | 14:35 |
| sipa | bramc: have a window a future unused derived keys, and check for transactions to them | 14:35 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: I was pretty pissed when responding to their forum post and had to redraft twice. | 14:35 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, i remember | 14:36 |
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| bramc | Is there any use at all for the master public key or is just a liability? | 14:36 |
| op_mul | hardware wallets use it. | 14:36 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: I really wish you'd read a bit more. | 14:37 |
| op_mul | partly trusted party holds the MPK, gives unsigned transactions to a HSM to sign with the master private. | 14:37 |
| bramc | op_mul, Use it how? For what? | 14:37 |
| gmaxwell | The primary application the homomorphic derrivation addresses is generating new publically unlinkable unique addresses for each payment you reciever, without having to keep the spending keys online. | 14:37 |
| Adlai | op_mul: the way to avoid leakage is not to derive keys from a key used to create an address, right? | 14:37 |
| sipa | Adlai: you should indeed never do that | 14:37 |
| gmaxwell | It's also, similarly, used for derriving more keys belonging e.g. to a hardware wallet on an online host... so you don't have to consult the hardware wallet to generate more keys constantly. | 14:37 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, Sorry, I was for some reason thinking that you hand a derived private key to someone who sends you payments. Obviously that makes no sense. I'm trying to work my way through the bip, really I am | 14:38 |
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| sipa | there is a lot of common knowledge now that is not in the bip, because it predates it | 14:38 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: ah, no, you don't hand private keys to anyone normally. | 14:38 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: this is all discussed in the BIP, at least. | 14:39 |
| Adlai | bramc: the use cases where child private keys are handed out are for organizations that split authority between various entities | 14:39 |
| Adlai | if you have a department head with a child private key, and an auditor with the master public key, they can collude to steal funds from other departments | 14:39 |
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| bramc | Okay, I understand now | 14:40 |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: "department head with a child private key," is nonsensical. | 14:41 |
| * Adlai is referring to https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#per-office-balances-mih | 14:41 | |
| Adlai | maybe I misunderstood it? | 14:42 |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: That example is m/iH | 14:44 |
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| * Adlai schedules a reread of bip32 | 14:46 | |
| bramc | What is the purpose of the chain code for heirarchical wallets? | 14:47 |
| Adlai | ohhhh it's a hardened key, making derivation of the parent private key impossible | 14:48 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramc, HD wallets are a tree not a chain | 14:49 |
| phantomcircuit | that's the first thing i ask people who have implemented BIP32 btw | 14:49 |
| phantomcircuit | if they say it's a chain i assume they dont have a clue | 14:49 |
| phantomcircuit | (since they dont!) | 14:49 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, But doesn't the key itself allow for the derivation of later things? What would happen if you used a fixed value for the chain code every time? Obviously you use a different i to make it a tree... | 14:50 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: there's a danger of a spec just having too many options, it means everybody just uses a subset of them | 14:51 |
| op_mul | phantomcircuit: and there's some stupid risk from things like BIP38 slipping through the net and being used as a standard. that one is still incredibly annoying to me. | 14:52 |
| op_mul | I've talked to lots of people that think their "encrypted" private key can be malware free or whatever because it's, you know, encrypted. end result is just people reuse addresses and ack recklessly. | 14:53 |
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| bramc | hmm, looks like chain code just remembers your position as a shared value between the private and public derivation because the public deriver doesn't have access to that info | 14:55 |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: yep. | 14:56 |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: though I'd forgotten that example was in there; it's at least specified sensibly. | 14:56 |
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| bramc | If I'm reading bip32 correctly, the basic trick is that if you have k1 and k2 as private keys corresponding to K1 and K2 as public keys, then (k1+k2) will have corresponding public key (K1+K2) ? | 15:05 |
| sipa | yup | 15:06 |
| bramc | Well that's easy. What's the caveat about ed25519? | 15:06 |
| sipa | even: if you have k1 and k2 as private keys corresponding to K1 and K2 as public keys, then (a*k1 + b*k2) will have corresponding public key (a*K1 + b*K2) | 15:06 |
| bramc | The derivation is basically mix i into the chain code, then generate a new key with the chain code and add that to the existing key | 15:07 |
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| bramc | gmaxwell, What was your problem with applying bip32 blindly to ed25519? Something about the group having a generator of size 8? | 15:08 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: ed25519 implementations require the most significant bit of the private key be set. Also all ed25519 keys must be a multiple of 8. (this later criteria can be worked around in a BIP32 like formulation, the former cannot) | 15:08 |
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| bramc | The multiple of 8 would seem to be fixable just by multiplying by 8 | 15:09 |
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| bramc | gmaxwell, Is that leading bit thing referring to the high bit of the point in the curve, not some artifact of encoding? | 15:11 |
| sipa | high bit of the factor multiplied with the generator | 15:11 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: right; probably BIP32 should have been specified in a way that was curve neutral by saying that you had to multiply by the cofactor (which is just 1 for secp256k1, so do nothing there). In any case, the high bit set is more of a problem. | 15:11 |
| bramc | And is that a deep requirement of the crypto or can you just break the implementation to not require that any more? | 15:11 |
| gmaxwell | You could break the implementation but then be randomly incompatible. | 15:12 |
| bramc | So the high bit thing is a defense against weak keys? | 15:12 |
| gmaxwell | And once you're in the realm of not being able to use a high quality standard implementations you start running out of advantages for a different curve. | 15:13 |
| sipa | it's necessary for constant-timeness of their signing algorithm, i believe? | 15:13 |
| sipa | unsure | 15:13 |
| andytoshi | bramc: i think it's about timing | 15:13 |
| andytoshi | iirc djb hinted at this but wasn't very clear in the curve25519 paper, and there isn't any other justification | 15:14 |
| gmaxwell | IIRC it's because their 'complete' addition formula can't handle the point at infinity. So their multiply ladder can always start with a 1 instead of a zero so long as the high bit must be set. | 15:14 |
| gmaxwell | If so it could be worked around at the expense of slowing down the code by adding more cmovs. | 15:15 |
| gmaxwell | (and tracking an infinity flag) | 15:15 |
| gmaxwell | Which is what we do in libsecp256k1. | 15:15 |
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| andytoshi | nsh: iirc you emailed djb about this? did you get a reply? | 15:15 |
| gmaxwell | But if you can't you high quality standard code; it greatly reduces any advantage in one curve vs another. | 15:16 |
| gmaxwell | since a lot of the motivation for parameters is tyed up in implementation quality. | 15:16 |
| bramc | I mailed djb about a few things recently and haven't heard back on any of them | 15:16 |
| ajweiss | for faster service, include qmail bug | 15:17 |
| sipa | lol | 15:17 |
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| nsh | andytoshi, might have been more of an intention than a thing-wot-i-then-actually-done-did | 15:18 |
| nsh | i meant to hassle him about a bunch of stuff at congress too, and he evaded me | 15:18 |
| nsh | (by sneakily scheduling ECCHacks for when i was distracted/asleep/ondrugs/elsewhere) | 15:18 |
| gmaxwell | well he'll respond to me if I email him (has the last several times at least) but if you're just curious about this it's easier to just read the code. | 15:18 |
| deego | http://www.unbreakablecoin.com/ looky! It's unbreakable! Says right there in its name. Let's switch! | 15:19 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, the 'why' of something like the high bit can be rather hard to ascertain from the code, particularly security-heavy crypto code | 15:19 |
| bramc | It could be that the last mail I sent to djb suffered from containing much too open-ended and interesting questions and he didn't have the cycles to spare on it | 15:20 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: Well it's pretty clear if it does what I suggested it does above: e.g. does it initilize the ladder with 1 instead of infinity and skip the first bit; and does the addition formula have code to handle the accumulator argument being infinity. | 15:20 |
| deego | (It's twice as fast, and four times the size of this puny, slow bitcoin!) | 15:21 |
| gmaxwell | If not than regardless of what the motivations were, at a minimum that would have to change. | 15:21 |
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| bramc | gmaxwell, I have no idea how that affects timing, and you're getting much deeper into the math than I remember off the top of my head | 15:21 |
| op_mul | deego: that's a 504. | 15:21 |
| gmaxwell | And annoyingly that would be incompatible (inside crypto inner loops). At which point "why use this over secp256k1?" is a more serious question? | 15:22 |
| deego | op_mul: probably because the "creator" has managed to get himself slashdotted. | 15:22 |
| deego | (did he pay dice for the advertizement?) | 15:22 |
| sipa | bramc: in an exponentiation ladder with one guaranteed bit set, you can trivially avoid having any internal result being the point at infinity | 15:23 |
| gmaxwell | yea, I saw that and went "hm. guess slashdot takes paid placement now." | 15:23 |
| deego | ikr | 15:23 |
| sipa | bramc: which means slightly faster/less code | 15:23 |
| op_mul | deego: unbreakable is about as ominous as unsinkable. | 15:23 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, The main motivation is it's schnorr, I guess you could use schnorr with secp256k1 | 15:23 |
| andytoshi | i think gmaxwell is right, in fe25519.c `static void reduce_add_sub(fe25519 *r)` we see exactly what he described ... ladder initialized with high bit set then a loop that skips it | 15:23 |
| deego | op_mul: haha | 15:24 |
| sipa | bramc: as otherwise you need a branch to check whether your addition would result in infinity (or use the conditional move trick, basically executing both branches and only using the result of the one you need) | 15:24 |
| andytoshi | (in the supercop reference impl, not the optimized one) | 15:24 |
| andytoshi | and no branching | 15:24 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: and indeed there is an implementation in the libsecp256k1 github; though it hasn't been updated lately. | 15:24 |
| op_mul | er. why is this "unbreakable coin" misusing bluematt's real name? | 15:25 |
| sipa | op_mul: where? | 15:25 |
| op_mul | https://github.com/jimblasko/UnbreakableCoin-master/commit/21695a61e000f6b2759626e2097c68573e1447cf | 15:25 |
| gmaxwell | wut | 15:26 |
| gmaxwell | BlueMatt: ?! | 15:26 |
| deego | (also, wc. sorry, I thought I was talking in #bitcoin.) | 15:26 |
| op_mul | OH | 15:26 |
| op_mul | it's a coingen coin | 15:27 |
| gmaxwell | lol may be due to coingen! | 15:27 |
| gmaxwell | lol | 15:27 |
| gmaxwell | it's a coingen altcoin? hahah | 15:27 |
| op_mul | From: Matt Corallo <coingenbot@bluematt.me> | 15:27 |
| sipa | it's not just a coingen altcoin! | 15:27 |
| sipa | it also has a patch to chmod a leveldb script file! | 15:28 |
| sipa | and some artwork changes | 15:28 |
| gmaxwell | Did they add a dog? | 15:28 |
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| op_mul | I can't confirm any dog at this point in time. | 15:29 |
| sipa | also this readme line change: | 15:29 |
| sipa | Unbreakablecoin is based on Bitcoin's core with modifications to it's speed and size. | 15:29 |
| sipa | (find the grammar error) | 15:29 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: hurray, my memory isn't completely worthless. | 15:29 |
| justanotheruser | sipa: their paint is thicker, rendering it unbreakable | 15:29 |
| sipa | leaded paint | 15:29 |
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| justanotheruser | Bitcoin's core? | 15:30 |
| bramc | Okay, really really stupid question: Schnorr works with any curve, right? Including secp256k1? | 15:31 |
| andytoshi | gmaxwell: did you notice this as part of secp256k1 work or was it actually mentioned in the curve25519 paper? | 15:31 |
| andytoshi | i remember specifically looking for an explanation in there, i'm disappointed to know that i missed it (tho at the time i know i didn't understand the ladder stuff and probably skipped it) | 15:32 |
| sipa | bramc: yes | 15:32 |
| sipa | well, "any" is a very large set | 15:32 |
| sipa | but typical | 15:32 |
| andytoshi | bramc: schnorr is group-agnostic, you only need discrete log to be hard | 15:32 |
| sipa | bramc: there's a pull request to to add schnorr to libsecp256k1 | 15:32 |
| sipa | it's outdated now, and we probably want to do things a bit differently now | 15:33 |
| sipa | but it would work | 15:33 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: no; so I had read that code a while back (to see if it did anything useful we should do for libsecp256k1) but didn't actually notice that. I knew from the ed25519 writeup they required the bit set; I only connected why while typing in here a moment ago (part of why I wasn't sure) | 15:33 |
| gmaxwell | So weird (but also so DJB) to gum up the works with a speed hack basically to avoid one line of code https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/master/src/group_impl.h#L361 but perhaps for his addition law it's somehow more complex than that. | 15:34 |
| op_mul | I saw some comments about making a libsecp256k low memory mode, how serious of a plan was that? :) | 15:34 |
| bramc | sipa, It has merge conflicts now? https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/pull/87 | 15:34 |
| gmaxwell | op_mul: its a few minutes hacking basically. | 15:34 |
| sipa | bramc: as i said, it's outdated | 15:34 |
| sipa | bramc: but the old code worked | 15:34 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: to get it down to < 20kB | 15:35 |
| sipa | code size? ram size? rom size? | 15:36 |
| op_mul | memory | 15:36 |
| sipa | including what? | 15:36 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, It might have to do with time invariance | 15:36 |
| gmaxwell | signing only? | 15:36 |
| BlueMatt | op_mul: gmaxwell lol, sooooo old shit | 15:36 |
| BlueMatt | coingen hasnt run in.....who knows how long? | 15:36 |
| sipa | bramc: yes, it does | 15:36 |
| sipa | bramc: it avoids a branch | 15:37 |
| op_mul | sipa: gmaxwell: signing ideally. \ | 15:37 |
| op_mul | BlueMatt: sorry for bothing you, should have thought for a few minutes before bringing it up | 15:37 |
| sipa | op_mul: 20 kB including what? code / static data / ram? | 15:37 |
| BlueMatt | op_mul: lol, np | 15:37 |
| sipa | if a 1 MB precomputed table is acceptable, it may be good already | 15:38 |
| op_mul | sipa: limits are 120kB-ish for the flash, 20kB for the memory | 15:38 |
| op_mul | actually, I could stop being cheap and just buy one with 2KB of flash | 15:39 |
| bramc | Looks like ed25519 is about twice as fast http://justmoon.github.io/curvebench/benchmark.html | 15:39 |
| gmaxwell | lol no. | 15:40 |
| gmaxwell | Thats year old stuff. | 15:40 |
| sipa | bramc: look at the pullreqs for that repo | 15:40 |
| sipa | i submitted updated benchmarks | 15:40 |
| sipa | which are outdated now too | 15:40 |
| gmaxwell | (also it was misconfigured because it rupped out the buildsystem) | 15:40 |
| op_mul | ah, damn, there's no 2KB flash version. limit seems to be 1KB. | 15:41 |
| gmaxwell | ripped* | 15:41 |
| bramc | sipa, How does it do with the updated benchmark? | 15:42 |
| sipa | with the endomorphism optimization (which may be patented) and libgmp (which you may not want to rely on in consensus-critical code), it's over 10% faster than ed25519 for non-batch verification | 15:42 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: ha, how's this. the model the trezor is using can come with a crypto coprocessor that can do all the things the trezor doesn't need to do. got us some DES, TDEA, AES, SHA1 and MD5. how handy! | 15:43 |
| sipa | with some pullreqs that are not merged yet, it's closer to 20% faster | 15:43 |
| bramc | sipa, What's wrong with libgmp? | 15:43 |
| sipa | more code | 15:43 |
| kanzure | surface area | 15:44 |
| sipa | and consensus-critical systems have much stronger requirements than typical projects | 15:44 |
| sipa | as in: fixing a bug may not be wanted | 15:44 |
| gmaxwell | GMP has never promised to not fix bugs. | 15:44 |
| gmaxwell | :) | 15:44 |
| op_mul | gmaxwell: and it has a hardware RNG. neat. | 15:45 |
| sipa | i trust GMP does a good job of testing and having few bugs in general, but that's not always enough | 15:45 |
| bramc | Okay, I'm sold on the bitcoin curve | 15:45 |
| op_mul | o.o tamper detection? | 15:49 |
| op_mul | right. battery backed SRAM, 80 bytes. | 15:52 |
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| op_mul | enough for a BIP32 key if you felt like living dangerously. | 15:53 |
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| bramc | sipa, When you say you'd do it differently now for that pull request, are you referring to the encoding used or the code layout? | 15:55 |
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| bramc | My list of stuff to research is now officially empty. Maybe I should start building something. | 16:44 |
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| justanotheruser | bramc: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fresearch.microsoft.com%2Fpubs%2F180286%2Fpinocchio.pdf | 16:46 |
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| bramc | justanotheruser, ZK stuff is interesting but I'm not going to use it for now | 17:44 |
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| BlueMatt | ;;later tell bramc "ZK stuff is interesting but I'm not going to use it for now"......then you havent sufficiently gotten into bitcoin yet! | 20:22 |
| gribble | The operation succeeded. | 20:22 |
| rusty | BlueMatt: I'd say he successfully avoided the rabbit hole, myself :) | 20:31 |
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| BlueMatt | rusty: I consider that failure :p | 21:11 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jan 21 00:00:30 2015 | ||
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