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| andytoshi | i have a problem in alts.pdf ... i describe the bitcoin network as "synchronous" then cite an impossibility result for distributed consensus asynchronous networks and claim it's applicable | 06:11 |
|---|---|---|
| andytoshi | the reason this is ok is because we aren't synchronous but "weakly synchronous" i.e. data only reaches all parties "eventually" | 06:12 |
| andytoshi | can i make "eventually" more precise? amiller ? | 06:13 |
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| amiller | andytoshi, no it's not enough for data to reach all participants only eventually | 07:22 |
| amiller | because if it takes 30 minutes for each honest miner who mines a block to deliver it to the next guy, then the amount of work wasted would be too high | 07:22 |
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| andytoshi | amiller: it has to reach each participant in less the blocktime, right? does it need to be significantly smaller than the blocktime? | 07:38 |
| andytoshi | and i'm not too worried about wasted work at this point, just "will it converge?" | 07:38 |
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| amiller | there are some equations for how much loss there is precisely | 07:39 |
| amiller | but look at it this way, even without an attacker with hashpower, | 07:39 |
| amiller | if the time to propagate is significantly more than the blocktime, then the chance might be really good that there is a fork at every block, in which case it might takea really long time to converge | 07:41 |
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| gmaxwell | Hi all, new straight forward soft-fork proposed for Bitcoin for strictder enforcement: please comment on the list (even if your comment is just a "I read this and it's boring") | 10:11 |
| gmaxwell | http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg06744.html | 10:11 |
| gmaxwell | If posting to the list is too burdensome for you, you can tell me and I'll relay your comments; but I'd really prefer you post. | 10:11 |
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| andytoshi | amiller: if you have two minutes can you glance at https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf page 8, first para of section 6? (just the one paragraph has changed) | 13:00 |
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| amiller | andytoshi, i get that you're trying to say that bitcoin relies on something weaker than 'synchronous' but stronger than 'asynchronous' | 13:03 |
| amiller | but you haven't really met the burden of evidence that there's a gap between the 'weakly synchronous' thing needed and the ordinary 'synchronous' model | 13:04 |
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| amiller | the main thing is that there's a time parameter in bitcoin, and it needs to be set so that communications propagate fast enough | 13:05 |
| kanzure | unrelated to the exact requirements for making strong and correct statements there, a section about "if you disagree with these requirements regarding mutually distrusting parties, that's nice and all but not bitcoin-compatible because: " | 13:06 |
| amiller | that's kind of characteristically synchronous | 13:06 |
| gavinandresen | If any of y’all wizards have an opinion on “What Satoshi Didn’t Know” that you think I should talk about in San Juan… send me email. I’m working on my keynote | 13:06 |
| andytoshi | amiller: well i'm just trying to give an idea that the impossibility result for asynchronous networks actually implies that bitcoin needs some sort of "economic patch" to be workable | 13:06 |
| andytoshi | maybe this implication is not there and i should remove it. but it's been folklore in -wizards for a while | 13:06 |
| kanzure | is the impossibility result cited/reproduced in this doc somewhere? | 13:07 |
| kanzure | actually, reproduced is preferable, and not cited | 13:07 |
| kanzure | *and not just cited | 13:07 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: it is cited, it is this one http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Impossibility%20of%20distributed%20consensus%20with%20one%20faulty%20process.pdf ... i'd rather not reproduce it in this document since it's only used as a motivation | 13:08 |
| amiller | that seems like the wrong implication andytoshi, there's a need for an economic patch even given a *synchronous* network, because of the lack of strong identities.... and on the other side, even with bitcoin's economic patch, it requires what's effectively a 'synchronous' network model, although it's tricky because it's not exactly the standardr point-to-point t hing | 13:08 |
| andytoshi | amiller: are you aware of a rigorous result along the lines of what you just said? | 13:09 |
| andytoshi | it really weakens the document if i make a claim like that with no citation | 13:09 |
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| andytoshi | (tho given that until today the document totally miscited the asynchronous paper as being about synchronous networks, maybe people aren't reading it as closely as i want :() | 13:09 |
| kanzure | that's useful evidence that nobody is reading it | 13:10 |
| amiller | lol review canary | 13:10 |
| andytoshi | well, one person did, it was https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoinninja/issues/11 that caused me to notice this | 13:10 |
| amiller | andytoshi, i try to cover this in like all my related work sections, i say borrow from http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/857.pdf and http://tr.eecs.ucf.edu/78/ and i'll send you the in-review draft of the systemization-of-knowledge paper | 13:11 |
| andytoshi | oh, fwiw pos.pdf cited the result properly, and needed only a one-character fix to be correct; while alts.pdf said literally "[cite impossibility result]", so unless somebody read my mind they would not have seen my mistake | 13:12 |
| andytoshi | thx amiller | 13:12 |
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| andytoshi | actually i think i want to cite you directly here, this is much better written than what i would come up with. plus i did not know this stuff | 13:17 |
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| andytoshi | hmm :/ i had a quite serious misunderstanding here, i thought the FLT impossibility result was directly applicable to bitcoin. amiller do you think we can chat about this at FC15? i will read up on this in the meantime | 13:29 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: funny I didn't think I'd read what you'd written that way. | 13:33 |
| gmaxwell | I thought you were bringing it up to point out that the synchrnous thinking people often show up with just does not work at all. | 13:34 |
| andytoshi | gmaxwell: i did say roughly that «We do not (and cannot, in an untrusted and physically dispersed network) assume that nodes agree on the precise timing or even time-ordering of messages on the network.» but i thought the FLT result made this intuitive truth solid | 13:39 |
| andytoshi | %s/FLT/FLP/ | 13:41 |
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| amiller | flp is extremely limited | 13:43 |
| amiller | first of all it applies to deterministic only | 13:43 |
| amiller | even in the same setting it's stated in, it can be overcome with randomized algoirthms | 13:44 |
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| amiller | flp applies only to asynchronous networks, which is the weakest network model, so there are even deterministic consensus algorithms if you assume there's some known network delay bound | 13:45 |
| kanzure | well there's definitely a known minimum network delay heh | 13:45 |
| amiller | maximum bound :p | 13:46 |
| amiller | so yeah basically FLP doesn't apply at all. | 13:46 |
| amiller | so imo the real reason the positive results for distrbuted consensus like paxos etc don't apply is the lack of preestablished set of parties with authentic channels between them. | 13:50 |
| amiller | so bitcoin's setting is like, everything else is "easy" ... assume there's a network bound, use randomness, etc., but one really hard aspect - no preestablished set of parties - which is harder than anyone else had really worked in | 13:51 |
| amiller | that's almost analogous to how ecash never took off. | 13:51 |
| amiller | all the ecash research assumed there was a semi-trusted bank, and batted down all these other features with crypto designs, like the untraceability, like deanonymize-on-double-spend so you don't have to have a stable connection | 13:52 |
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| amiller | then bitcoin takes off... it doesn't provide untraceability, you can't confirm transactions unless you have a connection to a bunch of peers, etc... but it does away with the bank which everything else had taken for granted | 13:53 |
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| phantomcircuit | amiller, not sure if you were around for this but i improved the description of that i was trying to do f(m, k) = s such that you can produce a compact proof that there is no valid k value | 13:53 |
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| phantomcircuit | from just s | 13:53 |
| phantomcircuit | actually i guess that's still poorly defined | 13:54 |
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| amiller | sorry about that tangent, the point is - the right way to view bitcoin's model is that it's really "strong assumptions" (sycnhronous, randomized) in every aspect except one, which is the fixed party set | 13:54 |
| phantomcircuit | no that is actually what im looking for i think | 13:54 |
| phantomcircuit | actually that's still not even particularly interesting | 13:55 |
| phantomcircuit | nvm | 13:55 |
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| amiller | phantomcircuit, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FHpOLiobmA#t=2m36s | 14:03 |
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| phantomcircuit | amiller, lulz | 14:30 |
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| andytoshi | amiller: thanks, i will update my document to reflect that, that is definitely not how i was looking at things | 15:01 |
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| gwillen | gmaxwell: the fact that strictder enforcement requires the non-VERIFY opcodes to still fail the entire script if !isDER is gross, not that you don't know that | 15:35 |
| gwillen | gmaxwell: am I understanding correctly that this is to prevent this from being a hardforking change due to the possibility of inverting the check? | 15:35 |
| sipa | gwillen: correct | 15:35 |
| * gwillen nods | 15:35 | |
| sipa | a softfork basically can only add conditions that immediately fail the script | 15:36 |
| gwillen | right | 15:36 |
| gwillen | because you can't add anything that could appear under a negation, since it could make failing scripts now succeed which would be a hardforking change | 15:36 |
| gmaxwell | Its maybe a little less gross when you just consider it as an additional constraint like the push_data opcode that is used to push in the signature must be valid, e.g. it's not a question of signature validity, it's a question of transaction wellforedness. | 15:36 |
| sipa | exactly | 15:36 |
| gwillen | gmaxwell: *nod* | 15:37 |
| gmaxwell | (maybe imaginging that there are types attached to pushes, and this adds a type requirement on checksig that the input be a ValidDER type) | 15:37 |
| gwillen | right | 15:37 |
| gwillen | I was just thinking about it in terms of types | 15:37 |
| sipa | except the constraint only applies to arguments that actually get evaluated | 15:37 |
| gwillen | which makes it sort of weird again | 15:38 |
| gmaxwell | the analogy wears thin, I mean you could imagine checkmultisig is a composition of a dispatch and a checksig (which is actually how it's implemented...) | 15:38 |
| gwillen | I guess you can't really make it check all encoded signatures including ones that are never evaluated | 15:38 |
| gwillen | since they don't have to be literals | 15:38 |
| gwillen | so if it's not evaluated you might not have it o | 15:39 |
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| gwillen | is a single-byte R with a value of 0x00 legitimate? | 15:44 |
| sipa | yes | 15:45 |
| sipa | well, it's DER compliant | 15:45 |
| sipa | afaik there is no valid signature with R = 0 | 15:45 |
| phantomcircuit | gwillen, yes but lolol | 15:46 |
| * gwillen nods | 15:46 | |
| sipa | well, some curves could have a valid R = signature, if they have a point with x=0 on the curve | 15:47 |
| sipa | s can't ever be 0 in ecda | 15:47 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: incorrect. | 15:47 |
| sipa | actually, r can't be 0 in ecdsa ever | 15:47 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: r can actually be zero. except for right. | 15:48 |
| gmaxwell | The point on the curve test is insufficient though; because R.x % order congruent to 0 is on the curve. | 15:48 |
| sipa | you seem to have experience with testing ecdsa edge cases | 15:49 |
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| gmaxwell | r being zero is explicitly rejected by the verification equation though because its trivial to forge a signature with r=0. :P | 15:49 |
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| gmaxwell | lechuga_: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg06744.html | 19:36 |
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| andytoshi | amiller: first paragraph of section 6 (page 8) and very first paragraph of page 9 are rewritten https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf | 20:22 |
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| amiller | andytoshi, looks good to me | 20:33 |
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| rusty | andytoshi: This gave me a chuckle: " [cite yet-unwritten article about cryptographicthermodynamics]" | 20:34 |
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| amiller | i vote for "thermocryptomics" as the name of this nascent field | 20:37 |
| kanzure | "[invoke spirit of boltzmann here]" | 20:39 |
| rusty | andytoshi: Your formula for calculating difficulty updates is wrong. Which kind of makes a meta point about complexity. That "timestamp 2016 blocks ago" <- should be 2015. | 20:40 |
| andytoshi | amiller: +1 to thermocryptomics :D | 20:41 |
| andytoshi | rusty: are you sure? diffchanges at blocks 1, 2017, 4033, ... no? | 20:42 |
| rusty | andytoshi: there's an out by one error... | 20:42 |
| sipa | no | 20:43 |
| sipa | the error is that the data used for the retargetting does not overlap, which causes the timewarp bug | 20:44 |
| sipa | but it's every 2016 blocks | 20:44 |
| rusty | sipa: yes, so timestamp 2015 vs timestamp 0, not ts 2016 vs ts 0. | 20:46 |
| andytoshi | 2015 vs 0 is still 2016 blocks | 20:46 |
| gmaxwell | it's a 'gaps vs blocks' counting. | 20:47 |
| gmaxwell | There is n-1 gaps in a span of n blocks. | 20:47 |
| rusty | sipa: but still gets divided by 2016, not 2015. making for 10.005 minute blocks | 20:48 |
| sipa | no; it subtracts the time of block N-2016 from that of block N, and divides by 2016 | 20:48 |
| sipa | i think | 20:49 |
| andytoshi | i recall getting myself confused by this when i was writing rust-bitcoin, but i don't think i can word it any better .. this is just a bug in english imo | 20:49 |
| sipa | you make me wonder :) | 20:49 |
| andytoshi | and i also think what's written is correct, but i'm not certain | 20:49 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: foo minute blocks is uninteresting, whats interesting is the lack of overlap means that hashrate can increase forever while difficult decreases forever. | 20:49 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: sure, dividing by the correct number wouldn't fix anything. I was trying to be illistrative. | 20:51 |
| andytoshi | from reading my rust code, i think the number is correct. the non-overlapping thing is cool, i never noticed that before | 20:52 |
| rusty | sipa: I've written this code and tested it against bitcoin (it failed, which lead me to this realisation). To calculate the difficulty of block 2016, we take timestamps of block 2015 and block 0. | 20:53 |
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| sipa | rusty: you're right; wow | 20:55 |
| sipa | apparently i never entirely understood this | 20:55 |
| andytoshi | rusty: what's written is "timestamp of last block - timestamp of block 2016 blocks ago". at block 2016 this refersto blocks 2015 and 0, respectively. so i think my prose is correct | 20:55 |
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| andytoshi | but erp, subtle | 20:55 |
| rusty | andytoshi: I think the fact that we're arguing over this illustrates your paper's point. That even the "non-crypto" part of our cryptosystems are really damn hard. | 20:55 |
| andytoshi | yeah jeez | 20:55 |
| sipa | rusty: the crypto part is actually easy | 20:56 |
| rusty | sipa: heh, just use openssl? :) | 20:56 |
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| sipa | rusty: as it already exists, and is (usually...) well tested and with known conditions under which it works | 20:56 |
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| rusty | andytoshi: yeah,if you read "last block" as "timestamp 1 block ago". | 20:57 |
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| rusty | andytoshi: may I suggest The formula for adjusting the difficulty is simple:[1] .... [1] And subtly wrong. [cite timejacking attack] | 20:58 |
| sipa | rusty: even with openssl, the problems we've had were in serialization code, not actual cryptographic implementations | 20:58 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: I don't think it's really correct to call these parts "non-crypto"; thats really just a too narrow definition of crypto. E.g. Does a lamport signature have no crypto at all because all there are is hashes? How about McEliece encryption? it's just a error correcting code. Academic happily accepts ZKP systems as cryptography, though they may have no secrets at all. | 20:58 |
| sipa | right, it's probably better to talk about "cryptographic primitives" | 20:59 |
| gmaxwell | I think its more fair to understand the whole (or at least whole of the consensus critical parts) as a fantastically complex and under anyalyized cryptosystem; doing so more adequately predicts the kinds of terrible problems there are with it. | 20:59 |
| andytoshi | rusty: i think that's the most likely reading, so the formula in the doc is correct. (presumably anyone who reads this will not try to translate english into consensus code anyway!!) do you know a cite for the timejacking attack? | 20:59 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: the artforz post, uh.. | 21:00 |
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| gmaxwell | andytoshi: I can't link because bct is down | 21:01 |
| andytoshi | found it, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=43692.msg521772#msg521772 ...oh, lol bct is down :). this was before my time, i was totally unaware of this somehow | 21:01 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: Yeah, I put it in quotes for a reason. The point of andytoshi's altpaper is that you can't go "oh, I'm not touching the crypto so my altcoin is safe" | 21:02 |
| gmaxwell | oh wow, I'm sure it's been mentioned in here many times before; must have wooshed you. | 21:02 |
| andytoshi | ima read http://culubas.blogspot.de/2011/05/timejacking-bitcoin_802.html | 21:02 |
| gmaxwell | the fact that the URL is so old makes it more likely to be correct. :-/ | 21:03 |
| gmaxwell | oh that doesn't cover it | 21:03 |
| andytoshi | ok, yeah, this looks like stuff i knew about.. | 21:04 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: is there a way to access your copy of bct? | 21:05 |
| kanzure | one moment | 21:06 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: I put a nice demonstration in testnet. | 21:06 |
| kanzure | http://archive.fart.website/archivebot/viewer/job/7i531 | 21:06 |
| andytoshi | gmaxwell: is the gist of it that the difference between blocks 2015 and 2016 is never used in any calculation (same with between 4031 and 4032, etc) so you can make these wild without affecting difficulty? | 21:06 |
| kanzure | https://archive.org/download/archiveteam_archivebot_go_068/archiveteam_archivebot_go_068_archive.torrent | 21:06 |
| kanzure | https://archive.org/download/archiveteam_archivebot_go_068/bitcointalk.org-inf-20140403-045710-7i531.warc.gz | 21:06 |
| kanzure | warning 83 GB | 21:06 |
| gmaxwell | there is span where the difficulty goes from 16 to 1 while at the same time the block rate is running at pretty much the maximum expressable rate (1 second per 5-6 blocks). | 21:07 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: no not quite. | 21:07 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: it's a two part interaction with the non-overlapping window and the median rule. | 21:07 |
| op_mul | hold on. I have the threads unpacked. | 21:07 |
| gmaxwell | Just the non-overlap isn't enough because otherwise the median rule would prevent you from doing anything crazy with it. | 21:08 |
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| gmaxwell | Basically you mine just enough blocks with really far back timestamps so that the median doesn't move forward. and you thus carry the old time all the way to the boundary, and then use it. This wouldn't allow you to repeadily crank the difficulty down, except the overlap means that your rigged time isn't the comparison point for your _next_ rigged time. | 21:09 |
| op_mul | o.0 | 21:09 |
| op_mul | oh gzip. right. that's why it's coming out nonsense. | 21:10 |
| andytoshi | :/ rust | 21:11 |
| gmaxwell | if not for the off by one you'd not be able to keep cranking the difficulty down, if not for the way the median works you'd not be able to propage at two week old timestamp as a permissable minimum value all the way to the end of the 2016 window. | 21:11 |
| andytoshi | :/ rust-bitcoin is not even enforcing the median rule | 21:11 |
| gmaxwell | lol | 21:11 |
| gmaxwell | obviously you have the clamps or you couldn't validate testnet; but you can't put a median rule violation in a valid chain... so.... | 21:12 |
| gmaxwell | Does blocktester not test that rule? | 21:12 |
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| andytoshi | idk, i never used the blocktester with rust-bitcoin because at the time i couldn't get it to work on my system (ditto with the regression tests in bitcoin core .... now those work for me so maybe whatever changed with also let me use the blocktester) | 21:13 |
| gmaxwell | I'd love to see a proposal to fix timewarp, though it hasn't been important because it takes a majority hashpower to pull it off. (and you can be sure that if some majority tried it it would be fixed right quick and a huge costly swath of their blocks would be invalidated) | 21:13 |
| andytoshi | man, this is not my day for knowing how bitcoin works :) | 21:14 |
| rusty | andytoshi: I notice your recommended reading "The Decision Diffie–Hellman Problem, Boneh, 1998". Dan Boneh lectures the Coursera/Stanford Cryptography I and II courses, which are free. | 21:16 |
| andytoshi | rusty: will add those | 21:16 |
| rusty | (I'm doing Crypto I, it's really nicely done) | 21:16 |
| sipa | Boneh's Crypto I? | 21:16 |
| amiller | try jon katz's too | 21:16 |
| rusty | sipa: yep... | 21:17 |
| sipa | rusty: did that too, i really liked it | 21:18 |
| andytoshi | i think i'm gonna drop Applied Cryptography too, because matt greene pointed out a ton of really dangerous stuff in there | 21:18 |
| andytoshi | things like "how to choose a cipher mode" when nobody should ever be doing that | 21:18 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: in pettycoin I used block N-2017 and block N-1, but then you need to special case the genesis... | 21:19 |
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| rusty | sipa: did you do crypto II? That covers EC, which was what interested me originally (my first-edition Applied Crypto has 1 paragraph on it :) | 21:20 |
| sipa | rusty: has it started yet? | 21:21 |
| andytoshi | i will add the timejacking stuff to alts.pdf when bct comes back up and i can link to it, thx for your patience everyone :} | 21:23 |
| rusty | sipa: oh, looks like next one is Apr.. I thought when I first looked they were scheduled simultaneously. | 21:23 |
| rusty | sipa: https://www.coursera.org/course/crypto2 | 21:23 |
| sipa | rusty: i've been waiting for that for a few years now; it's beed postponed like 5 times | 21:24 |
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| rusty | sipa: Oh, that's kinda crap. Maybe not enough people finished Crypto I? | 21:26 |
| sipa | rusty: i just think Boneh is busy, and has better things to do than prepare a free course :) | 21:27 |
| rusty | sipa: damn, coz it's a long way to Stanford from here... | 21:28 |
| * sipa reminds himself that he is in california next month | 21:28 | |
| gwillen | yeah I have also been waiting years for crypto 2 | 21:29 |
| gwillen | someone should tell me if evidence appears that it's actually going to happen although I'd hope they'd email me since I'm signed up | 21:29 |
| sipa | gwillen: Boneh told me in september that he was nearly finished (in real life) | 21:30 |
| gwillen | awesome | 21:30 |
| gwillen | that's good to hear | 21:30 |
| gwillen | I really enjoyed crypto I | 21:30 |
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| gmaxwell | icmp_seq=3750 ttl=238 time=183429 ms | 22:11 |
| sipa | that's peanuts compared to the ping times i saw when using RFC 5514 | 22:12 |
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| fluffypony | sipa: if you were seeing bad ping times then obvious you were doing it wrong OR you just have crappy Facebook friends | 22:40 |
| fluffypony | :-P | 22:40 |
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| ryan-c | sipa: I guessed IP over Avian carrier with QoS, but was sad. | 23:10 |
| fluffypony | ryan-c: its so much worse than that | 23:12 |
| ryan-c | fluffypony: I'm pretty sure someone *actually* implemented ip over bongo drums | 23:13 |
| fluffypony | hah | 23:13 |
| fluffypony | error correction with that must suck | 23:14 |
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| ryan-c | https://web.archive.org/web/20130917021241/http://www.eagle.auc.ca/~dreid | 23:15 |
| ryan-c | original site seems to be gone, sadly. IIRC there were pictures. | 23:15 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jan 22 00:00:31 2015 | ||
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