| --- Log opened Mon Jan 26 00:00:35 2015 | ||
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| andytoshi | hi guys, i'm afraid my minions are actually undergraduate crypto students, there are only like 100 of them, and most of them likely can't code at all | 00:06 |
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| andytoshi | and they will need to be tricked, since they think i am their TA, not their master.. | 00:06 |
| phantomcircuit | heh | 00:07 |
| andytoshi | i can assign them bitcoin stuff but it has to be related to the class .. unfortunately that excludes all consensus stuff as well as ECDSA (which is academically boring since it has no analytic results accessible to undergrads). also i can't assume they are good programmers | 00:09 |
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| op_mul | andytoshi: asking your students to reproduce might be a bit too far, too. | 00:17 |
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| op_mul | hahahaha | 02:47 |
| op_mul | so ethereum is asking for people to find consensus bugs, and they'll pay a bounty. but only if you give up your real name a proof of identity. | 02:48 |
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| moa | ummm, because a real name is an important bug validation indicator? | 02:49 |
| op_mul | me nods | 02:50 |
| wumpus | hmm, not a good idea to put too much requirements on people submitting bugs | 02:52 |
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| moa | op_mul: i guess ethereum don't want satoshi debugging ... | 02:53 |
| Luke-Jr | maybe the bounty amount has tax reporting obligations? | 02:55 |
| cbeams | Luke-Jr: yes: https://bounty.ethdev.com/ search: "How are bounties paid out?" | 02:55 |
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| op_mul | Luke-Jr: seems funny for them to stop trying to get around the law at this stage of the game. | 02:56 |
| moa | sounds suitably arcane for ethereum | 02:56 |
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| kanzure | op_mul: you don't need a 110nm fab. you can get very far with 50-100 micron resolution. | 04:14 |
| kanzure | phantomcircuit: here are my notes on such a scheme http://diyhpl.us/wiki/homecmos | 04:15 |
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| phantomcircuit | op_mul, they should write the bug bounty program as an ethereum contract of course! | 10:58 |
| phantomcircuit | oh right you cant do that | 10:58 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, interesting | 10:58 |
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| pigeons | yeah at tleast they aren't paying out in ETH | 10:58 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, "type words and put them here" | 10:59 |
| phantomcircuit | heh | 10:59 |
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| kanzure | i think that's my job description, even | 11:04 |
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| instagibbs | oh hey they are paying out for solutions to "51% and other X% attacks." so if you guys have been holding out until now feel free | 13:02 |
| op_mul | instagibbs: oh drat. I've got one sitting right here but they want a copy of my ID. oh well. | 13:03 |
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| kanzure | is that a part of their bug bounty program? | 13:05 |
| kanzure | also, someone should suggest proof of work | 13:05 |
| instagibbs | yes just search for that phrase | 13:05 |
| instagibbs | i know | 13:05 |
| instagibbs | i want to troll them o nthe PoS | 13:05 |
| instagibbs | but I'd have to sign up... | 13:05 |
| kanzure | since when is it okay to demand solutions. it's their cryptosystem, not mine. i just break things. | 13:05 |
| kanzure | welp, at least there's an official statement on the matter though ("we know it's broken and we're actively soliciting solutions") | 13:06 |
| instagibbs | ok didn't want to continue a jerk, just found that snippet funny heh | 13:07 |
| op_mul | I thought vitalik fixed PoS? | 13:07 |
| instagibbs | someone please send me solution to 51% attack I'll give you some NXT | 13:07 |
| adam3us | op_mul: i think the fixes dont quite work. | 13:08 |
| kanzure | adam3us: op_mul is joking | 13:08 |
| instagibbs | adam3us: a bit of understatement ;D | 13:08 |
| adam3us | instagibbs: ah failed irony detector :) ok | 13:08 |
| instagibbs | Proof of Blockchain.info is how I phrase the solution after thinking about it like 10 minutes | 13:10 |
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| instagibbs | a little hard to care further when consensus failure is simply shrugged at by those dealing out bug bounties. | 13:25 |
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| op_mul | that is how they work though. if broken, add additional complexity to stop people bothering to break it again in the future. | 13:35 |
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| jcorgan | heh: https://mjos.fi/doc/gavekort_kale.pdf | 16:13 |
| op_mul | jcorgan: I think there's some previous wizards discussion on that. | 16:14 |
| jcorgan | ah | 16:14 |
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| nsh | .wik XSL attack | 16:34 |
| yoleaux | "In cryptography, the eXtended Sparse Linearization (XSL) attack is a method of cryptanalysis for block ciphers. The attack was first published in 2002 by researchers Nicolas Courtois and Josef Pieprzyk." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XSL_attack | 16:34 |
| nsh | the less-satirical literature around the subject is pretty interesting too | 16:34 |
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| op_mul | an interesting side effect of people writing their own wallets is that cryptanalysis of ECDSA is likey less effective than attacking bitcoin through RC4. | 16:38 |
| op_mul | there's something weird about the fact that our total security is resting on top of a stream cipher that's been known to be weak since the 90s. | 16:41 |
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| nsh | since the 80s if you work at the NSA | 16:47 |
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| op_mul | regardless it's still weird that anybody would knowingly base their new cryptosystem on RC4. | 16:49 |
| nsh | how does wallet security depend on RC4? communication with bitcoind? | 16:51 |
| * rusty wants to know too... | 16:51 | |
| op_mul | no, almost all transactions today are made with a library called "bitcoinjs" which uses RC4 as it's PRNG. even in the situations where the browser has a CS PRNG, it gets fed through RC4 before being used. | 16:52 |
| op_mul | s/almost all/almost all transactions not made with bitcoind/ | 16:52 |
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| op_mul | it also makes some other small mistakes, like using a 32 bit initialization vector for AES. hardly end of the world stuff, but it makes you wonder how much review any of this stuff has had. | 16:57 |
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| rusty | op_mul: Hmm if browser doesn't provide CSPRNG then crypto in it seems like a bad idea. | 16:59 |
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| op_mul | rusty: people have been told this, I promise you. websites like blockchain.info still don't hard fail and simply just use Math.random() silently. | 17:00 |
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| rusty | op_mul: they'd be better relying on the server for seed, at least that reduces the opportunity for theft to a smaller subset of the population. | 17:01 |
| antgreen | jgarzik: you may have noticed that I'm going to a local bitcoin dev meetup Feb 19, and volunteered to speak for 10-15min about moxie/moxiebox. I'm really there to learn, and don't claim to completely understand if/how moxie may be used by bitcoin in the future, but if you have anything more to share by the 19th, be sure to let me know! | 17:01 |
| op_mul | rusty: their security model is 0% trust in the service using client side javascript loaded from a remote server. you can't go doing that! | 17:02 |
| op_mul | rusty: (they do, anyway) | 17:02 |
| rusty | op_mul: I agree they should be hard failing, but marketing >> technology I guess. | 17:04 |
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| op_mul | rusty: this is the company that edited their RNG software, made a copy and paste error making it's output have 8 bits of entropy, and then pushed the change straight into production. dripping with incompetence, and oddly not the first time they've broken their RC4 PRNG and lost money doing it. | 17:06 |
| rusty | op_mul: Oh, I didn't know about that one.... | 17:07 |
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| op_mul | type error, they didn't initialise an array so the "entropy pool" was exactly one integer wide. | 17:08 |
| rusty | op_mul: That's an easy error to make though, and cursory testing won't reveal it. But you'd hope they'd be a bit more paranoid... | 17:12 |
| op_mul | ಠ_ಠ | 17:13 |
| op_mul | solution is not hiring monkeys. | 17:13 |
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| rusty | op_mul: but, hey, it's not their money! | 17:13 |
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| op_mul | the story is funnier than that. so they lost 900 BTC. and then the person that stole the money returned it. and then to "verify" people were stolen from and return the money, blockchain.info emailed the affected users and asked them to send in their wallet ID and password in cleartext. | 17:14 |
| op_mul | but the point is more that you shouldn't be making cryptographic changes in production and with no oversight. take a leaf out of NASAs book or something, justify every single line. | 17:16 |
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| * nsh takes a leaf out of NASA's book | 17:20 | |
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| op_mul | and also stop using RC4. | 17:25 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, did hashfast every pay creditors anything? | 18:25 |
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| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: I certantly got nothing. | 19:01 |
| phantomcircuit | i wonder what their bom cost is for a board w/o psu | 19:03 |
| phantomcircuit | downclocked without the liquid cooling nonsense | 19:03 |
| phantomcircuit | actually even downclocked it's still a 400W chip | 19:03 |
| phantomcircuit | er no it's a 100W chip | 19:04 |
| phantomcircuit | i bet they actually do have tons of chips and nobody who wants them | 19:04 |
| tacotime__ | they dumped most of the rest of their chips, all they had at the end was their IP pretty much | 19:06 |
| tacotime__ | there were some aftermarket boards coming out for a bit. i still get mail from their lawyers. worst investment of my life. | 19:07 |
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| gmaxwell | cluestick solicitced: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=937058.0 | 19:09 |
| justanotheruser | Can truthcoin work? It seems that the cost of keeping a price feeder honest is something no one wants to bear. Be it a small or large contract/bet, people will gravitate towards blockchains where the price feeds are subsidized by them the least leading to very little incentive for the feeds to stay honest. | 19:11 |
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| jcorgan | gmaxwell: the paranoia runs deep there | 19:18 |
| phantomcircuit | tacotime__, i wonder if they sold all of the chips or if they really did just dump them? | 19:18 |
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| sipa | jcorgan: it's a very legitimate concern | 19:19 |
| gmaxwell | jcorgan: it's a reasonable thing to ask, also not hard to answer; juts better if other clueful people respond. | 19:19 |
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| instagibbs | justanotheruser: a little rusty on the truthcoins mechanisms. Could you give a pointer? Thought they were doing SVD or something | 19:19 |
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| jcorgan | there are ways to ask about the legitimate concern that don't employ words like "enemy", "NSA-type organizations", and "infiltrate" | 19:20 |
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| justanotheruser | instagibbs: SVD on the vote matrix | 19:22 |
| gmaxwell | some people were raised by wolves, some raised by conspiracy theorists. | 19:22 |
| justanotheruser | I'm asking about incentives to have a good vote matrix | 19:22 |
| instagibbs | justanotheruser: right | 19:22 |
| instagibbs | ah | 19:22 |
| instagibbs | who knows | 19:22 |
| instagibbs | that's obviously the best question to ask | 19:22 |
| instagibbs | they are attempting a sort of split of responsibilities, but why wouldn't having a really large stake just let them punish people who vote against them | 19:23 |
| justanotheruser | I don't know why I said price feeds | 19:23 |
| justanotheruser | Mixing up bitshares terminology | 19:23 |
| instagibbs | yeah I mean it's an interesting experiment. I really like the composable bet structure | 19:24 |
| instagibbs | something I'd probably lose tons of time and money on :D | 19:24 |
| justanotheruser | another thing is delegates only have so much bandwidth. One set of delegates can only be price feeds for a few things. | 19:25 |
| justanotheruser | I'm guessing that means the incentive can't get massive | 19:26 |
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| instagibbs | issue is if some malicious actor gets 100% of any particular bet, they can clean house. I'll have to re-read their stuff; too rusty on specifics | 19:29 |
| instagibbs | err 100% of the staking or whatever | 19:30 |
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| justanotheruser | instagibbs: I don't think the matrices will be defined such that you will even need 100% | 19:37 |
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| Taek | instagibbs, justanotheruser: currently you could clean house with 51% I think. There were plans to raise it to 70% or something, but that has it's own tradeoffs (70% to clean house, 30% to stall everything) | 21:57 |
| Taek | But, if you chose to clean house, everyone will know because the votes will obviously be a lie | 21:58 |
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| Taek | that means that the entire voting pool's value will drop to 0 and nobody will ever use it again | 21:58 |
| Taek | being a part of a voting pool is profitable | 21:58 |
| Taek | Truthcoin attempts to defend against this attack by making it more profitable to be a long term successful pool than to clean house one time | 21:58 |
| Taek | Even if you could clean house, you wouldn't want to b/c you'd make more money just by sitting on your giant portion and voting honestly for a few months | 21:59 |
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