| --- Log opened Mon Feb 02 00:00:07 2015 | ||
| --- Day changed Mon Feb 02 2015 | ||
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| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: bitcoin core won't even update the block template more than once every 30 seconds or so. | 00:01 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, sure but it's easy enough to construct the merkle tree root yourself from the mempool | 00:11 |
| phantomcircuit | just gotta get the dependency order right | 00:11 |
| phantomcircuit | but yeah i bet most pools are lazy and assume getblocktemplate returns a sane list of transactions | 00:12 |
| op_mul | if I was a large scale miner it would just be "you are not getting confirmed today". | 00:12 |
| op_mul | (so not risking 25 BTC on my crashy code) | 00:12 |
| phantomcircuit | op_mul, it's super trivial to get the transactions ordering correct | 00:13 |
| phantomcircuit | the hard part is getting the multisig limits right | 00:13 |
| phantomcircuit | it's trivial to check that you got them right though | 00:13 |
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| stonecoldpat | was good to meet some people last week! even if it was only briefly at some points :) now back to work... ! | 04:48 |
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| zooko | stonecoldpat: I didn't get a chance to say Hi, but I really enjoyed your talk. | 07:38 |
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| stonecoldpat | zooko: no worries, there were too many people to get talking to everyone (i took myself off to the jacuzzi quite often), I seen your twitter posts yesterday, cheers for the shout out about the talks :P | 07:53 |
| nsh | what was the talk about? | 07:54 |
| stonecoldpat | nsh: it was to do with using the bitcoin network as a command & control center for bots (so you can send commands as a legitimate bitcoin transaction) | 07:55 |
| nsh | ah | 07:55 |
| stonecoldpat | the idea itself isn't that complicated, its just thinking about what we can do about it, i think the crowd pretty much went with the idea of trying to make the network less attractive compared to other methods (so the fact that all commands are stored on the blockchain, may decourage people), so myself/taha (colleague) are gonna start looking into that aspect | 07:57 |
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| * nsh nods | 07:59 | |
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| hearn | stonecoldpat: command line flag that downloads IP blocklists (or uses signed message p2p broadcast like alerts). botnet nodes, once identified, go on the ban list | 08:09 |
| fluffypony | and then when that person has removed the malware they're banned forever | 08:12 |
| fluffypony | and if you want to piss your boss / friend / neighbour off, just get them added to the IP ban list | 08:13 |
| Luke-Jr | hearn: wtf? that's disturbingly centralised | 08:15 |
| hearn | fluffypony: the assumption is the "these are botnet ips" list isn't maintained badly, yes | 08:16 |
| hearn | Luke-Jr: if you have a good, robust, decentralised algorithm that can be quickly implemented and deployed to identify botnets using the block chain as a C&C network, i'm all ears | 08:16 |
| Luke-Jr | hearn: better to not do anything, than to make Bitcoin centralised | 08:16 |
| fluffypony | Luke-Jr: yeah that's nearly as bad as making address blacklists mandatory on Gentoo | 08:17 |
| fluffypony | you tell him, Luke-Jr | 08:17 |
| Luke-Jr | fluffypony: this is not a place for you to troll. I did nothing of the sort. | 08:17 |
| fluffypony | hearn: I think it's infeasible to try and stop it - they can submit C&C signals as mined tx's, and bots can receive them via SPV / Electrum / blockchain explorers | 08:19 |
| hearn | hence the simple IP list approach | 08:19 |
| hearn | assuming someone, somewhere has a way to detect the botnet, that will interfere with it enough that maybe they'll go back to IRC or their own p2p network or whatever they were using before | 08:19 |
| hearn | doesn't have to be perfect | 08:19 |
| fluffypony | yeah, but if the bots aren't ever connecting to actual Bitcoin nodes then what are you going to block? | 08:20 |
| hearn | if they aren't connecting to actual bitcoin nodes then where's the problem? | 08:24 |
| fluffypony | ok let me explain the hypothetical more clearly: | 08:25 |
| fluffypony | 1. C&C command is packed into OP_RETURN and sent as a tx with some magic flag (say to a specific address within a group, or even to the next in a deterministic set of addresses) | 08:25 |
| fluffypony | 2. bots watch blockchain explorers, or connect to Electrum servers, to check for activity on that address, and then follow the C&C command | 08:26 |
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| hearn | fluffypony: i understand the threat. i have discussed stonecoldpat's paper with the authors | 08:30 |
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| hearn | fluffypony: my point is - in that case, Not Our Problem. the operators of those servers can block the bots | 08:30 |
| hearn | the risk of botnets abusing the block chain in this way is partially reputational, but botnets abuse everything so that's not such a big thing, and mostly load related | 08:30 |
| fluffypony | yep I agree | 08:31 |
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| stonecoldpat | I don't know if there could be an algorithm to determine the bots and blacklist them (of course an anti-virus/malware can if installed on the infected machine, but i mean, if I were to try and identify other nodes that 'may' be bots on the network), in our example they were standard spv clients (so just normal nodes connected to the network), if they have bloom filters you could | 08:37 |
| stonecoldpat | identify, but I don't imagine they would set a bloom filter (i didn't have bloom filters for awhile by mistake). | 08:37 |
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| stonecoldpat | although their lack of activity (broadcasting their own transaction) could help (as its unlikely they will be sending a transaction), id be interested to know how often an average node broadcasts a new transaction to the network. | 08:39 |
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| hearn | stonecoldpat: remember that botnets do things beyond download commands | 08:44 |
| hearn | stonecoldpat: the people the botnet is actually attacking will be able to spot them and produce IP lists | 08:44 |
| hearn | stonecoldpat: we don't need (and I'd argue against) some kind of automatic botnet detector. all we need is better load management, and a way to shed load if there is too much | 08:44 |
| stonecoldpat | hearn: true, that is a good way to get their IP, but i don't imagine the community would accept a blacklist approach using data given to them by a third-party who got "attacked" | 08:50 |
| stonecoldpat | although on the mention of load management, it is interesting(came up in a convo last week) that at the moment there is no incentive for bitcoin servers (people who accept incoming transactions) to actually propragate transactions | 08:51 |
| hearn | if bitcoin is broke because of all the bots trying to grab their instructions, i think they would | 08:51 |
| hearn | but debates about what "the community" would do in random hypothetical situations are a bit dull. it can be argued either way | 08:52 |
| hearn | doh | 08:52 |
| hearn | of course there is incentive | 08:52 |
| hearn | the incentive is "bitcoin works" | 08:52 |
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| stonecoldpat | thats the only incentive though which is essentially people's good will (who want to see it work) | 08:53 |
| fluffypony | stonecoldpat: all consensus systems need at least some rational actors:) | 08:53 |
| hearn | it's not good will, it's self interest - there's no point in running a bitcoin node or holding bitcoins if the system breaks. yes, you can get stupid/evil nodes, but the network can tolerate some of them as long as the connectivity is good enough | 08:54 |
| stonecoldpat | argubly though, servers could just propragate transactions that interest them directly to the miners, theres no real reason for them to propragate other people's transactions which have nothing to do with them | 08:55 |
| stonecoldpat | so for them, bitcoin would work, but not for everybody | 08:55 |
| hearn | yes, there is | 08:55 |
| hearn | gah :) i think i need to write an FAQ or essay on this, as variants of it come up so often | 08:56 |
| hearn | money circulates. money that doesn't circulate is useless, including to the person holding it or trying to spend it | 08:56 |
| hearn | there is no such thing as a transaction that "interests me directly". *any* transaction that doesn't pay me, might be the basis for one that does tomorrow | 08:56 |
| hearn | bitcoin is designed to tolerate a minority of abusive or malicious nodes. it can't function if every node simultaneously decides to try and make micro-savings today with no regard for tomorrow | 08:58 |
| stonecoldpat | in the real world, money circulates as someone is always profiting from it (person to person sales, bank to bank, etc), in bitcoin thats not the case, those middle-men who handle the flow of transactions on the network don't make anything but a working system that they may benefit from in the future, if bitcoin were to achieve visa-levels of transactions, i don't think people would | 08:59 |
| stonecoldpat | still run bitcoin servers for free | 08:59 |
| kanzure | can you demonstrate that | 08:59 |
| ajweiss | if i was running a business that depended on the success of bitcoin, it is in my interest to run a few nodes and propagate transactions that don't directly interest me | 08:59 |
| hearn | stonecoldpat: how do you know? perhaps by the time bitcoin is visa-level successful my smart watch will have a terabyte of ram | 08:59 |
| hearn | i mean, bitcoin isn't going to handle that level of traffic anytime soon absent a major and unexpected change in how people use the network | 09:00 |
| kanzure | hearn: arguably if it cannot function under a specific threat that you can identify, then you should be working on a proposal to mitigate that threat | 09:00 |
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| hearn | kanzure: that's the sort of thinking that dominated the security community in the 1990's and yielded horribly unusable software that nobody cared about. attempting to address every imaginable threat, no matter how realistic and no matter how costly the solution, results in "password written on yellow sticky notes" type problems | 09:01 |
| hearn | kanzure: but sure if you can find a solution that has reasonable cost/benefit tradeoffs, and convince people of that, go for it | 09:01 |
| stonecoldpat | thats the dream, and ajewiss: most good businesses would, but we could do better than that i think | 09:01 |
| kanzure | node-majority threats are obviously not going to crash the bitcoin network, i'm not sure why you are saying that it would | 09:01 |
| kanzure | i know you like to hate on distributed consensus, but you should put more thought into your complaints | 09:01 |
| kanzure | the number of broken nodes does not directly influence whether or not proof of work is broken, for example | 09:02 |
| stonecoldpat | it would be good if miners and bitcoin servers could both make a profit, make bitcoin server businesses who are dedicated to building a reliable network | 09:02 |
| hearn | who is complaining? not me. i was responding to stonecoldpat saying that bitcoin shouldn't work because nobody has incentives to relay transactions :) | 09:02 |
| kanzure | you are constantly complaining about malicious nodes | 09:02 |
| kanzure | i mean, constantly complaining about bitcoin not being designed to handle malicious behavior | 09:03 |
| kanzure | (sorry, i was imprecise) | 09:03 |
| hearn | oh for goodness sake. no, i am not. i didn't even start this conversation. | 09:03 |
| stonecoldpat | haha i didn't mean to say it shouldn't work, but I think it may deserve some attention for people to tuink about | 09:03 |
| hearn | stonecoldpat: it's easy to do what you want - add some basic authentication protocol to p2p and then teach clients how to authenticate. charge for accounts. | 09:04 |
| kanzure | haha what | 09:04 |
| hearn | stonecoldpat: hey, it might even become a reasonable business model soon, not for tx relaying but because bloom filtering is sometimes a bit slow. | 09:04 |
| hearn | stonecoldpat: but for tx relaying you have the problem of several thousand competitors who are charging zero | 09:04 |
| stonecoldpat | perhaps even if the bitcoin server has 'better bandwidth' compared to others, so businesses could have a fast lane due to them helping the network, (lets not compare this to ISPS! more a thought) | 09:04 |
| stonecoldpat | "prove to me you gave propragated my transaction, and i'll give you a better service in the future for it" - type of agreements | 09:05 |
| stonecoldpat | hearn: while it would be good not to have a real charge (as im a cheapo), but that type of business could exist in the future if the network got really popular | 09:09 |
| hearn | yup | 09:09 |
| hearn | or many different interacting networks | 09:09 |
| hearn | an interbitcoinnet | 09:09 |
| stonecoldpat | lol | 09:09 |
| stonecoldpat | i'm pretty sure there is something at the moment for miners, like a miners fast lane? (i've heard it on the grapevine, but dont know much about it), but I imagine if the blocksize did get increased, miners would rely on that more than the actual network and i'm sure someone may try to profit off that as well | 09:11 |
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| justanotheruser | at least in the past, most large miners were connected to most other large miners directly | 09:14 |
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| fluffypony | stonecoldpat: are you thinking of BlueMatt's backbone thing? | 09:20 |
| fluffypony | RelayNode | 09:21 |
| stonecoldpat | yes, and by googling that I found a thread that discusses the idea about node incentives (y) | 09:25 |
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| hearn | stonecoldpat: yes bluematt's miner backbone network. i am not sure if there's any data showing it's useful, though | 09:43 |
| hearn | stonecoldpat: iirc there was an attempt to get some pool owners opinions and the only answers that came back were like "we have bigger things to worry about that orphan rates right now" | 09:43 |
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| BlueMatt | hearn: naa, most pools use it now | 10:27 |
| hearn | BlueMatt: yeah but do they know how much it helps? | 10:28 |
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| BlueMatt | hearn: it seems to work pretty well, but its hard to tell....orphan rates are pretty low to begin with | 10:30 |
| hearn | yeah | 10:30 |
| BlueMatt | hearn: there has been one case where the code fucked up and the server didnt relay and it was pretty clear the orphan would have been avoided if it had worked | 10:32 |
| hearn | hm, ok | 10:32 |
| hearn | that's an interesting data point | 10:32 |
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| ajweiss | did the miner publish out on the regular network too? | 10:35 |
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| nsh | A Practical Methodology for Measuring the Side-Channel Signal Available to the Attacker for Instruction-Level Events -- http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~az30/Downloads/Micro14.pdf | 14:40 |
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| earlz | So, what is a decent way to store and query blockchain data? | 14:58 |
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| kanzure | wrong channel | 14:59 |
| earlz | A faster way than just scanning through the blocks | 14:59 |
| earlz | eh. what channel then? | 14:59 |
| kanzure | -dev | 14:59 |
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| Luke-Jr | earlz: the answer is "no" ;) | 15:54 |
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| earlz | Luke-Jr: is your recommendation forward-only blockchain scans? | 16:21 |
| earlz | I can't remember who recommended that for almost everything | 16:21 |
| sipa | everyone? :p | 16:22 |
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| kanzure | what's the right term for obfuscated/indistinguishable software in "the interclouds"? | 18:41 |
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| freewil | obfuscated from who/what? | 18:52 |
| maaku | encrypted computation? | 18:56 |
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| Taek | maaku: homomorphic encryption? | 20:42 |
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| maaku | the word 'homomorphic' scares people it seems | 21:07 |
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| fluffypony | kanzure: SAAS? | 21:26 |
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| jcorgan | maaku: would that be called homophorbia? | 21:53 |
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| gmaxwell | I just came up with a space savings / cpu improvement for the pairing crypto provable hash scheme. Refresh: To have p2sh-like hash outputs where you know they are hashes, in some pairing compatible group you set PubkeyHash = h(script)*G and provide proof = h(script)*to_point(H(PubkeyHash)); to verify one checks pairing(proof,g) == pairing(o_point(H(PubkeyHash)),PubKeyHash) | 23:07 |
| gmaxwell | This works because the verifier is the BLS signature scheme verifier, it's checking that you know the discrete log of PubkeyHash. Unlikely ECDSA though there is no sidechannel in the signature scheme that could be used to encode or leak additional data. | 23:08 |
| Luke-Jr | does that require it be a hash *of a key specifically*? | 23:09 |
| gmaxwell | it's a hash of a redeemscript. | 23:10 |
| Luke-Jr | hm | 23:10 |
| gmaxwell | The scheme above requires 64 bytes for each output-- 32 for the pubkeyhash, 32 for the proof. The more costly part is the two pairing operations to verify it. | 23:11 |
| gmaxwell | But the verification can be batched, pairing(sum(PubkeyHash_n * random_n), g) = prod(pairing(to_point(H(PubkeyHash_n)),PubKeyHash_n)^random_n) ... which gets it down to ~1 pairing per output plus some point multiply which is cheap compared to the pairing. | 23:14 |
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| gmaxwell | Alternatively, the proofs can be aggregated, so you only need one proof for any number of outputs (e.g. down to 32 bytes, basically no size overhead) but the OWAS style aggregation seems to break the batch verification, and I'm still trying to figure that out. | 23:16 |
| gmaxwell | In any case, I think it's likely I'm being stupid and can get both the aggregation and batching working and get it down to 32bytes per output for the 'hash', plus 32 bytes for a whole transaction (and eventually whole block). Plus only one pairing operation per output + some overhead). | 23:18 |
| gmaxwell | though thats still probably only on the order of 1000-2000 outputs per second verifyable on a current generation core. Though I suppose nothing great is lost if the provable hashness of your outputs isn't absolutely verified by everyone. | 23:19 |
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