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| instagibbs | come on wizards it's not e^{} or e^() it's exp() :) | 05:57 |
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| dgenr8 | watched gmaxwell and adam3us dealing with a really crappy video link ... fascinating interview. my eyebrows raised at the part where you talked about using moxiebox to keep miners from modifying their software | 07:03 |
| dgenr8 | are we talking about closed source? or do I have this all wrong (I hope) | 07:03 |
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| andytoshi | dgenr8: definitely not closed source | 07:13 |
| andytoshi | dgenr8: the idea is that the consensus code is in a (small enough to be interpreted by auditable and clearly-correct code) assembler language | 07:14 |
| andytoshi | dgenr8: then it is hashed before execution to ensure that everyone is running exactly the same code | 07:14 |
| andytoshi | this only applies to consensus code, not policy issues, network transport, etc | 07:15 |
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| dgenr8 | if a misguided miner wanted to modify it, could he? | 07:32 |
| dgenr8 | yes, the consensus code | 07:32 |
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| CoinMuncher | yes, but the point is that would be his problem, not anyone elses. | 07:40 |
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| dgenr8 | how does a remote node know what code I'm running? and supposing this is possible, btcd must adapt or die? | 07:49 |
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| * nsh blinks | 07:57 | |
| nsh | i think there's a misunderstanding | 07:58 |
| andytoshi | dgenr8: ofc a miner -could- modify the code, but he'd gain literally nothing except to have stopped mining bitcoin | 07:58 |
| andytoshi | dgenr8: and if btcd is running functionally different code than bitcoin core (and no doubt they are) they already have a problem | 07:58 |
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| dgenr8 | nsh: could you point me to the source of your understanding please | 08:00 |
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| nsh | well, i haven't seen the video you're referring to and don't know awfully much about the moxiebox ideas in general | 08:02 |
| nsh | so i should reserve comment until i'm better informed | 08:02 |
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| andytoshi | you can probably search the logs for "moxie" ... i don't think this has been written up anywhere | 08:08 |
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| siraj | any thoughts on automated transactions? It would allow for atomic cross chain transfers between blockchains with this implemented http://ciyam.org/at/ | 08:14 |
| maaku | siraj: you can do atomic cross chain transactions today | 08:16 |
| siraj | if this was implemented in bitcoin you could spend bitcoin on filecoin based storage (IPFS) assuming both implemented AT. Seamless. It could be apart of the W3C of the internet of money | 08:16 |
| siraj | maaku: what was the enabling technology for that in BTC? | 08:16 |
| nsh | internet-of-X considered harmful | 08:16 |
| maaku | siraj: bitcoin script. | 08:16 |
| maaku | siraj: to the rest, AT is hideously complex and will never be implemented in bitcoin | 08:17 |
| maaku | we may hopefully see some more targetted changes to bitcoin script that make it more expressive, but it would need to be sensitive to consensus issues | 08:18 |
| zooko | siraj: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading | 08:19 |
| siraj | dope, reading up on it thx | 08:19 |
| fluffypony | andytoshi: have you got the alts.pdf commit history up on github or not? | 08:19 |
| zooko | siraj: but be warned, I think there is an attack on that through txn malleability. | 08:19 |
| zooko | Maybe someone should add that caveat to that wiki page... maybe me... | 08:19 |
| * nsh smiles | 08:19 | |
| fluffypony | nsh: you mean you don't want your connected lightbulb ordering you replacement toilet paper? | 08:19 |
| siraj | zooko: plz do | 08:19 |
| nsh | well, once you put it that way, i'm very excited. i might write a book for tim o'reilly! | 08:20 |
| nsh | https://i.imgur.com/AwxjWZF.png | 08:20 |
| nsh | ^ DARPA cyber-grand-challenge *smg* | 08:21 |
| nsh | the fingerprint-bone's connected to the wifi-bone. the wifi-bone's connected to the washingmachine-bone | 08:21 |
| fluffypony | "smart fingerprints" | 08:21 |
| nsh | Now heaaaaar the word of the Lord! | 08:22 |
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| andytoshi | fluffypony: no, sorry, it's on my todo list... right now it's at git://git.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alt-essay.git | 08:45 |
| fluffypony | tks | 08:45 |
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| andytoshi | zooko: i'm blocked by cloudflare .. can you say whether the wiki version is comprehensible? if not you may want to copy the version from the sidechains whitepaper http://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf | 08:51 |
| andytoshi | the tiernolan bct thread that i adapted that from wasn't really comprehensible | 08:51 |
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| andytoshi | (the sidechains wp should also have a malleability caveat, but i think we didn't because bip62 was already in progress | 08:52 |
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| zooko | For future reference, it might be worth mentioning that malleability *would* be a problem in the following way, if malleability were possible. | 08:56 |
| zooko | Although I recognize that the side-chains paper was already long and dense. :-) | 08:56 |
| zooko | andytoshi: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading looks good to me. | 08:57 |
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| maaku | andytoshi: we aren't building chains of unconfirmed transactions though | 12:28 |
| maaku | oh you mean in referening the atomic cross-chain work | 12:28 |
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| dgenr8 | andytoshi: How can a remote node know what code I'm running? I can think only of some kind of signature performed by obfuscated code. | 13:42 |
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| gmaxwell | dgenr8: I think adam misspoke when he said something like "prevent soft forks"; though you can do ugly things to prevent people from changing software he wasn't talking about that, but rather have a strong public commitment to no intentional changes (e.g. never again have some coordinated soft fork) to the core, and have a design that makes accidental changes unlikely. | 14:04 |
| gmaxwell | (you can 'prevent' people from changing the software by using remote attest, though the strength of that is limited.) | 14:05 |
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| dgenr8 | gmaxwell, thanks :) | 14:08 |
| nsh | remote attestation as only as strong as the the precision of timing measurement crossed the optimality of the attested algorithm | 14:11 |
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| SubCreative | <3 | 18:43 |
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| kanzure | yahoo labs bitcoin presentation http://labs.yahoo.com/_c/uploads/ETH_11142.pdf | 20:53 |
| kanzure | not sure about page 34 | 20:57 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: can you decode "input" in the context of the presentation for me? | 20:59 |
| kanzure | page 12 function I() | 21:00 |
| kanzure | not sure | 21:00 |
| kanzure | i suppose that's the set of transactions? | 21:00 |
| gmaxwell | yea, doesn't actually make sense to me. It sounds like the set of transactions they're mining. | 21:00 |
| gmaxwell | Right but the only 'change your input' you do in a reorg, is the minimum required to not produce invalid blocks with respect to the new predicate. | 21:01 |
| kanzure | their purple question "How do we prevent the adversary from shifting its hashing power from one to the other?" is alarming to me (indicates they might be missing something important) | 21:01 |
| gmaxwell | it may be related to the assumption the ghost stuff tries to address; Satoshi's model is flawed in that orphaning rate means that an efficient ("centeralized") attacker can win against the honest decenteralized miners just by being more consolidated even with a minority hashrate. ... but only if its close enough to a majority by some value proportional to the orphan rate. For bitcoin 10 minutes | 21:05 |
| gmaxwell | is large enough relative to propagation that this effect can basically be ignored. | 21:05 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Feb 06 00:00:01 2015 | ||
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