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| petertodd | trying to come up with good terminology for the idea of a cryptographic one-time key and signature for anti-replay protection. Basically the same thing the bitcoin blockchain does in practice - making it possible to do something exactly once - generalized. | 03:07 |
|---|---|---|
| petertodd | Best idea right now is to call them one time seals, and proof that a specific one time seal has been applied to a given hash would be called a one time seal witness. Seems reasonable? | 03:08 |
| petertodd | I couldn't find any great examples of this in literature, although my google-foo is weak... | 03:08 |
| Taek | 'one-time' might not be good words to use, don't want people to get confused about stuff like 'one time pad', which is a completely different concept | 03:10 |
| petertodd | Taek: hmm... irrovocable seal? | 03:11 |
| fluffypony | what about using the term "one way" to convey the sense? | 03:12 |
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| Taek | isn't work naturally implied by something like this? Signatures by default can't be reused, pow just makes it difficult to sign in the first place. You want to limit it to 'difficult to sign' type concepts? | 03:13 |
| petertodd | Taek: basically the idea is similar to the physical concept of those numbered tamper-evident zip ties used to secure stuff in shipping: each seal has a unique number, it can be applied exactly once to a given object/hash, and you can verify the object/hash that has been sealed | 03:15 |
| petertodd | equally, in Bitcoin when you spend a txout - a globally unique thing - you irrovocably commit it to something else - the txid of the transaction spending it | 03:16 |
| Taek | oh, different from what I was thinking | 03:16 |
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| Taek | 'one way seal' doesn't seem so bad | 03:17 |
| Taek | though it doesn't really seem great either | 03:18 |
| petertodd | Irrovocable Seal gives the right impression better I think | 03:18 |
| petertodd | or One Use Seal maybe? | 03:19 |
| petertodd | Single Use Seal? | 03:19 |
| Taek | if I correctly understand what you want, irrovocable seal seems pretty good | 03:21 |
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| Taek | because the idea is that you can't give a utxo to me and then fluffy | 03:22 |
| Taek | you seal it and then you lose the ability to re-seal it | 03:22 |
| petertodd | yeah | 03:22 |
| petertodd | otoh, with single use seal you get the natural-sounding terminology "(un)used single use seal" | 03:23 |
| petertodd | "unused irrovocable seal" is a bit more mysterious | 03:23 |
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| Taek | but wouldn't an unused seal be refering to the object? So you'd have irrovocable seals and unsealed objects | 03:26 |
| petertodd | Taek: no, because multiple different seals can be applied to the same object | 03:27 |
| petertodd | Taek: the seal itself is what is used or unused | 03:27 |
| Taek | can you apply this to Bitcoin? I don't follow | 03:28 |
| petertodd | Taek: you can implement this with bitcoin: txout -> single use seal, proof that txout was spent -> witness that a single use seal was used | 03:28 |
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| Taek | so the seal is the proof that the txout was spent? Or the actual signatures that spend the txout? | 03:30 |
| petertodd | signatures are irrelevant - they're just proof someone *could* spent the tx. The proof that a txout single use seal was used is the tx spending it | 03:31 |
| Taek | ah got it | 03:33 |
| Taek | the seal is (more or less) the block, with the stipulation that it needs to be a part of the longest blockchain | 03:34 |
| petertodd | yeah, at a lower layer of abstraction you could say that :) at a higher layer you could say the proof "is bitcoin" | 03:34 |
| petertodd | equally, you can imagine a non-bitcoin trust-based scheme where the seal is just some pubkey, and the proof the seal was used is a valid signature on that pubkey | 03:35 |
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| Adlai | petertodd: what about "provably disposable"? ie, once the thing has been disposed, it is possible to prove that it's no longer fresh | 04:14 |
| * Adlai looked for a positive rephrasing of 'unused' | 04:15 | |
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| gmaxwell | maaku: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=956442.0 | 11:38 |
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| maaku | someone needs to point him here | 11:41 |
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| maaku | gmaxwell: are you writing a response? | 11:46 |
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| kanzure | .title | 12:02 |
| yoleaux | Individual Block Difficulty Based on Block Size | 12:02 |
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| kanzure | "URLs of others' efforts are dropped and constantly mocked. Vitalik Buterin seems to be a fun target." | 14:01 |
| kanzure | "guys please don't produce criticism it is not fair to others" | 14:01 |
| kanzure | "also breaking other people's cryptosystems is bad" | 14:02 |
| Luke-Jr | … | 14:05 |
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| Luke-Jr | is it our fault people spout bad ideas without even trying to learn what has been done before? | 14:07 |
| kanzure | nope. bram was given some links, he ignored it, that's his own fault. and then he has been engaged quite often. i think it's a friendly relationship. | 14:07 |
| kanzure | also, maybe that guy was just upset that bram's messages didn't receive instant replies, but i can only type so fast. | 14:08 |
| kanzure | and petertodd's willingness to call me out is like his most endearing and lovable quality | 14:08 |
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| Luke-Jr | I was referring to most scamcoiners and Vitalik. | 14:11 |
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| Luke-Jr | not bramc - at least he seems to be taking things seriously (although I've not been following everything) | 14:11 |
| kanzure | ah, well the post was talking about bramc, but since i didn't actually link it i wouldn't expect anyone to know heh | 14:12 |
| kanzure | "gee whiz, i'm so sorry that i haven't dropped everything to implement spow" | 14:12 |
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| sipa | kanzure: where do you read that? | 14:23 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: some reddit post which has since been deleted. | 14:25 |
| kanzure | gmaxwell: another thing that may not be obvious to others is that cryptography in particular is a field where the vast majority of all proposals should naturally be broken. that should not be surprising to anyone who thinks about why. of course, to those who are more familiar with literally almost everything else other than cryptosystems, it may seem absurd. | 14:26 |
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| kanzure | https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-design-proposals-how-we-make-changes-our-protocol | 15:15 |
| midnightmagic | mm. Wouldn't the users build the market for achieving price per transaction? People who want to move money more, pay slightly more to push their tx to the top of the tx list for the currently-considered block? | 15:38 |
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| midnightmagic | externalizing costs of mining completely would just increase profit and make it a tx-side market where room is consumed wholly by highest-bid..? | 15:39 |
| midnightmagic | neat idea otherwise though | 15:42 |
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