2015-02-17.log

--- Log opened Tue Feb 17 00:00:04 2015
--- Day changed Tue Feb 17 2015
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petertoddOk, I think I came with the best name ever for anti-replay/anti-doublespend single-use-seals: Lazy Commitments.00:21
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petertoddBasically, like a normal commitment you commit to a value in advance. However because you haven't actually figured out what the value is yet, you do it lazily.00:21
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nshheh00:24
nshhow do you commit to an un{known|evaluated} value?00:24
petertoddA binary tree of lazy commitments naturally leads to a Lazy Set Commitment: you commit to a set, and when you figure out what should actually be in the set you gradually populate branches of the tree.00:25
petertoddnsh: with bitcoin! (or trust)00:25
petertoddnsh: your homework: figure out how00:25
nshhrm00:26
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petertodd@encthenet came up with a good one: "Schrödinger's commitment scheme: you commit to a value, but you don't know what it is still the big reveal."00:32
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petertoddand... that's actually what PayPub/Darkleaks does! the commitment is to use use the blockchain as a random beacon, and you don't know what the value will be until later!00:34
nshwait00:37
nshthis solves timelock00:37
petertodd?00:37
nshtimelock encryption. if can encrypt content so that it can only be decrypted with certain coin-spends00:37
nshthen you can do that to m_timelock'd inputs and solve timelock encryption00:37
nshor am i missing things00:38
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phantomcircuitnsh, timelock stuff is mostly not useful for these things because they're expensive to validate that there isn't a solution00:38
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petertoddlolol! the problem is your Schrödinger commitment scheme needs to have the operation to derive a pubkey now from the secret key to be revealed later - blockchain as random beacon doesn't support that operation00:39
nsh'Files are split into segments and encrypted. These segments are unlocked only when the leaker reveals the key by claiming his Bitcoins.'  from darkleaks coverage00:39
nshprobably reading too much into that00:39
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nshwell, it should try harder :)00:41
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petertoddnsh: ah, but see, there's a step where you commit to revealing part of the leak in advance, and that part is determiend by what the blockchain hash will be some time in the future00:42
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nshoh, hmm00:43
nshah, i get it00:44
nshthat's clever00:44
nshdevilish even :)00:44
nshshould be able to use this to bootstrap a pretty interesting class of interactive games too00:49
nshand protocols00:49
petertoddfor sure00:50
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gmaxwellnsh: yea, though sadly the utility is kind of narrow. The class of information where a random sample doesn't stand a risk of giving away all the value, and where the value can't be sapped by a few careful redactions which sampling is unlikely to reveal (even if it hits them, you can't tell what was missing), I think is not so broad.01:31
nshhmm, perhaps01:32
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gmaxwellI'd talked before in here a while back on doing the same trick with images (sampling over pixels) to construct very low res versions....  it might work better for that.01:33
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petertoddgmaxwell: oh damn, why didn't I already think of that images trick?01:41
petertoddgmaxwell: could do the same thing with audio too I bet01:41
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petertoddgmaxwell: a_d fo_ t_at m__ter w__h te__ doc___n_s li__ b__ks __d _epor__01:42
petertoddgmaxwell: (maybe not that last one)01:43
petertoddyou know, the class of information where sampling doesn't risk "giving it all away" is actually most strongly the obvious one: artistic works01:44
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nshmaybe you can apply a holographic transformation to a file so that any revealed segment attests to the well-distributedness of the original information throughout the whole01:48
nshthat seems more dubious after articulation :/01:48
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gmaxwellpetertodd: there is a long description of the image version in here a while back (including where I pointed out that you can use signal processing from compressed sensing to construct a good image from a random sample)01:49
gmaxwellmaybe a year or so ago?01:49
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nshactually, it's not so dubious. you can oversample the bits of the original and then do fourier transform01:51
petertoddgmaxwell: yeah, pretty obvious idea in hind sight01:51
nshbut whether or not that could be faked is more open01:51
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nshoh, something vaguely like this exists even: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_algorithm01:52
gmaxwellnsh: you can always fake it, alas, e.g. the 'original' may be low resolution in reality.01:52
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* nsh nods01:52
nshperhaps you can commit to the total 'sum resolution' separately somehow01:52
petertoddgmaxwell: make the sampling be a combination of randomly distributed points, and a randomly chosen chunk01:52
petertoddgmaxwell: or really, the density of points randomly sampled should itself be random over the picture01:53
gmaxwellrandom alone achieves that, but the problem is that it can be very hard to tell if it wasn't crapped up just by downsampling and then adding noise based on the lower res image.01:54
nshhrmm01:54
nshthat seems like an improvement01:54
petertoddgmaxwell: right, but if you have some of the image being high density points, or 100% reveal, that noise will be revealed01:55
petertoddgmaxwell: equally, if every additinal bit of data revealed incrementally reveales more detail, at least the revenue stops when the fraud is revealed01:55
nshi think you can bound the difference in quality against likelihood of detection01:55
petertoddnsh: probably01:56
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nsh--02:12
nshThe idea of timestamping information is actually centuries old. For example, when Robert Hooke discovered Hooke's law in 1660, he did not want to publish it yet, but wanted to be able to claim priority. So he published the anagram ceiiinosssttuv and later published the translation ut tensio sic vis (Latin for "as is the extension, so is the force"). Similarly, Galileo first published his discovery of the phases of Venus in the anagram form.02:12
nsh-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping02:12
nsh(TIL)02:12
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Zouppencool02:14
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Zouppenthat quote needs citation02:16
nsh( http://gadyasblog.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/ceiiinosssttuv-hookes-law-more-commonly.html // http://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200811/backpage.cfm )02:19
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Adlaimappum: how (in)sane would it be to run mercury in a blockchain against itself as a decentralized coinswap market?06:01
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Adlaihttps://gist.github.com/adlai/976d308efdb2e886ecb9   'revisions' link includes the orignial text by gmaxwell06:12
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* Adlai takes https://gist.github.com/adlai/976d308efdb2e886ecb9#file-coinswap-txt-L24 to suggest that Alice should be the participant who cares more about anonymity, whereas Bob should be incentivized for the risk of being deanonymized06:14
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mappumAdlai: why create another blockchain? bitcoin should work just fine10:09
mappumi hadn't looked closely at coinswap before, it seems to basically be an enhanced version of atomic swaps to make the transactions not associated with each other10:09
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siraj_http://blog.onename.com/blockstore-bitcoin/ interesting10:40
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kanzurewrong11:07
kanzurefor anyone to think that's interesting they would have to be unaware of literally all of the prior work11:08
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mappumkanzure: what prior work are you thinking of, permacoin?11:17
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kanzurethe page seems to be down at the moment, but this was the "store the hash of a dht in the blockchain" idea again, right?11:19
mappumyes, and done in a counterparty-like way (fake transactions embedded in OP_RETURNs on bitcoin)11:20
fluffyponyeugh.11:21
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siraj_right11:27
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siraj_here's a better link https://github.com/openname/blockstore11:28
instagibbsdon't know the prior work, but I'm also unsure of what it's supposed to solve? Checkins of DHTs?11:28
siraj_decentralized authorization of data ownership11:29
siraj_and access11:29
instagibbswho publishes the DHT? Onename?11:30
instagibbslike, sticking it in a block11:30
siraj_they say each node of their client is a DHT node (its built in)11:30
siraj_im not sure how they are incentivizing them. no tit-for-tat mechanism like bittorrent or monetary incentive like filecoin11:31
mappumthat part doesn't seem like it needs to be coupled to the blockchain, they should really be separate systems11:31
instagibbsbut the anchor being published on the blockchain must be put there by someone... perhaps this is off topic11:31
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maakuthere is absolutely no reason to include any information in the block chain for this purpose. NONE.11:36
instagibbsAt this point in my bitcoin 'career', if a project doesn't explicitly numerate why it needs the blockchain up front, my eyes glaze over11:37
siraj_Is there another way to authorize ownership of your data in a decentralized way in a DHT?11:37
mappumthey should just be using namecoin, the extra features they try to put in are unrelated11:38
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siraj_namecoin lets you authenticate but it doesn't let you authorize yourself to access your data. for example, in a decentralized social network namecoin would let you verify you are unique, but if the network is using a DHT to store data, all data would be global read write unless there was a way to authorize ownership. the blockchain provides decentralized consensus on data ownership because only you own your private key. i've yet to see11:40
siraj_something else that does that as securely.11:40
kanzure"authorize ownership" is meaningless nonsense11:40
gmaxwellthat does what?11:41
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kanzurei thought everyone and their mom has done "publishing a hash in a transaction" by now? i'm a little confused why i would have to invoke permacoin or whatever.11:42
GAitTEE (Trusted Execution Environment) with directIO on screen on Android, demo by Ledger on GreenBits https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugd_irhBnto11:43
instagibbsGAit: +1, excited to see these finally roll out11:44
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GAitinstagibbs: same here, even with NFC it is a bit painful to use a hardware wallet with your mobile. With USB it is outright a mission.11:47
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siraj_@kanzure assume i have a social network on a DHT where users don't have to self-host their data. a user publishes an image to the DHT and it returns a hash. i only want myself to be able to access this image. This is where i see the utility of something like blockstore. I'm not sure how else only i can have access to said image in the DHT.11:56
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mappumsiraj_: if you're letting other people store it, it's already considered public data. you could encrypt the image and let people store that, then only you can access the image11:58
siraj_but if the apps source code is open source, anyone could easily decrypt it11:59
mappumno, only you store the encryption keys11:59
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gmaxwellsiraj_: I think you're confusing some basic concepts. Public key cryptography, which lets a third party encrypt a message so that only you can decrypt it, is widely used and existed long before Bitcoin.  It accomplishes the goal you're describing.12:00
siraj_ok thx guys bbl crypto study time12:01
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stonecoldpatgood example of why i love bitcoin, it is a good excuse to introduce people to crypto (who may not necessarily have been introduced to it previously). or at least introduce people to the concept of public/private keys. (y)12:06
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Adlaimappum: there would only be a single blockchain involved. by "in a blockchain against itself" i mean: "the utxos given and received live in the same blockchain; an additional protocol (coinswap) is used which lets the buyer obtain a utxo unlinkable to the one traded away by the merely-blockchain-observing public"12:33
Adlaia crude way of saying this is "hey, atomic cross-chain swapping looks rather similar to CoinSwap, i wonder if we couldn't reuse code built around the former to facilitate the latter too"12:34
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mappumAdlai: ah, i interpreted that incorrectly. yes, they are very similar and coinswap can even happen on separate chains, so you would be killing 2 birds with 1 stone. but i wouldn't feel confident implementing coinswap unless there was a good decentralized solution for order matching (otherwise the central service can log who swapped)12:36
amillerstonecoldpat, it used to be that if you wanted to show someone crypto, all you could do is send signed encrypted email message12:38
amillerbut it's really not fun at all.... checking a signature is super boring all you can do is look at it and mumble to yourself "yes i trust this" "no i do not trust this"12:38
amilleror you send a pointless encrypted message12:38
mappumAdlai: someday though, thanks for bringing coinswap to my attention.12:38
gmaxwellmappum: hm? you don't need order matching, you need one sided registration of interest then other things can be party to party.12:38
mappumgmaxwell: you do when you're doing the swap for trading instead of just for anonymity12:39
gmaxwellokay, that one does need more extensive matching.12:39
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woahmappum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSnYmMHp-o812:41
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woahperhaps something like this could be adapted for order matching12:41
woahone of my favorite things from ccc this year12:42
woahhttps://events.ccc.de/congress/2014/Fahrplan/system/attachments/2535/original/dp5-31c3.pdf12:43
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mappumwoah: interesting, i'll have to give that a closer look sometime. i'm staying away from trying to do decentralized order matching for now because there are a lot of factors at play (traders might want to attack other traders by e.g. sending them fake orders) so it would be hard to get right12:44
kanzure.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSnYmMHp-o812:46
yoleauxDP5: PIR for Privacy-preserving Presence - YouTube12:46
Adlaiisn't "one sided registration of interest" enough? the would-be Bobs of a blockchain just need some way to inform would-be Alices of their openness to perform swaps, which iiuc is just the pair (utxo for sale, private contact channel); decentralized order matching results from it being impossible to spend an already spent transaction, so an 'expired' Bob-side listing is detectable by being missing12:48
Adlaifrom the utxo set12:48
* Adlai needs to study mercury, and the PIR concept linked by woah12:49
Adlaistill speaking a little (lot) outside my depth, trying to make sure that there's a viable idea at the other end of this thought train12:50
mappumAdlai: right, coinswap can work fine without centralized matching, i was thinking of using coinswaps in atomic-swap market trades where you do need centralized matching. but for now that's not the best since the order-matching service has records of who swapped with who12:51
mappumthat could be viable though if the order matching could be decentralized12:51
orperelmanMappum - how about semi-decentralised?12:51
mappumorperelman: how would that work?12:52
Adlaia centralized service which knows the set of all would-be Bobs ("coinswap offers"?) and how often PIRs are performed ("alice inquiries"?), but doesn't help or interfere with what the recipiets of the information do with it12:53
mappumAdlai: right, that works if you only care about doing the coinswap for anonymity12:54
Adlaia superset of all potential coinswap participants in a blockchain can be determined by any passive observer, and i'm not convinced the operator of such a centralized server knows anything appreciably more than that set precisely (ie, not a superset)12:54
Adlaiwell yes, that's the direction i'm taking this: the joinmarket team are working towards coinjoin markets, and coinswap is looking lonely over there in the corner12:55
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Adlairudimentaly DoS-mitigation is achieved by breaking step 6 in half, so Alice always pays a network fee; Bob only broadcasts after seeing confirmations on TX0; think "proof-of-burn", but useful12:57
Adlai"useful" since the fee is a) going to mining fees, not being destroyed b) enabling progression to the protocol stage if both participants are honest12:58
Adlaito the *next* protocol stage12:59
* Adlai is talking about https://gist.github.com/adlai/976d308efdb2e886ecb9#file-coinswap-txt-L1612:59
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mappumhasn't that been updated to have another party (Carol)?13:00
Adlaino, it's been simplified to remove her.13:00
Adlaihttps://gist.github.com/adlai/976d308efdb2e886ecb9/revisions13:00
mappumoh, i see. so it still works as long as the coins aren't associated with each other13:01
gmaxwellReally, you can look at coinswap as not a thing in and of itself, but a combination of two things:  An atomic swap,  and novation contract compression.  The NCC provides perfect privacy as a necessary side effect of the compression; if details of the contract were leaked, then you obviously didn't compress it enough. :)13:02
kanzurewait a sec i'm on to you13:02
kanzure:)13:03
gmaxwellIn theory the NCC should be a general construct that you could apply to _any_ enumerated-party contract to keep the contract out of the blockchain.13:03
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Adlaidid you just make up the NCC concept? "my normal approach is useless here"... there are few enough resources online about "novation", let alone NCC13:06
Adlais/just//, i guess "is it hitherto unpublished, from google's perspective"13:07
mappumi just made the same google searches :P13:08
* Adlai talks less, reads more13:09
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andytoshi(reading scrollback) o.O did somebody suggest using a blockchain as an encryption scheme? i think that's a new one..13:10
Adlaimappum: http://cacr.uwaterloo.ca/techreports/2014/cacr2014-10.pdf is a little less content-free than woah's dp5-31c3.pdf (linked from within those slides)13:11
Adlai.title13:11
yoleauxAdlai: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.13:11
kanzurewomp womp13:11
kanzurealthough i would be interested in figuring out how to extract titles from pdfs. it seems to be one of those Difficult Problems.13:11
Adlaihttp://tripbot.tripsit.me/flashy/orange/PATCHES%2520WELCOME13:11
kanzure(formatting detection etc)13:11
Adlaioh dear that's broken, oops >_>13:12
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gmaxwellandytoshi: not that uncommon to see people try to apply 'bitcoin/blockchains' where they really want asymetric crypto; no different than the old 'DHT' in place of 'distributed system'.13:13
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kanzurefor april this year you guys should re-publish ralph merkle's paper and see if anyone notices that this "revolutionary cryptosystem" was previously known13:14
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Adlaimake sure to cite recent work ("A generalization of the data integrity scheme used by certain cryptosystems, such as Bitcoin")13:17
gmaxwellkanzure: by you guys you mean Nicolas van Saberhagen the second?13:17
andytoshihmm, i should highlight on that..13:17
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andytoshi(everyone should)13:19
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* Adlai is not spartacus (yet)13:20
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Adlaialthough an interesting question for somebody at my stage in the crypto quest is "you wake up in late 2008, knowing what you do today; can you beat satoshi to the press?"13:22
gmaxwellI've been a part of some communities that had collective troll accounts. E.g. some account where people share the credentials, as kind of an open secret.13:23
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gmaxwellkanzure: with respect to the earlier thing with the DHT network; whats _interesting_ there is that someone actually went and built it.13:27
gmaxwellI haven't looked at the design, may well be crap and all... but I think it's very useful for something like that to exist; even if it just serves the purpose of shunting off misplaced things that think they want to shove data in the blockchain.13:28
kanzureyeah, i suppose i was focusing more on the hash portion13:29
kanzurei don't really have anything against DHT networks existing and doing things13:29
kanzurewhoops by "hash portion" i meant the one they place into the blockchain13:29
gmaxwellIf its well built and serves that purpose I'll gladly run a large node of it, at a loss, just to help discourage crap from going into the chain.  Indeed, the hash portion is, meh. At least the stuff we'd talked about before used UTXO for rate limiting, not transactions, so you didn't have to transact.  Alternatively, a sign to contract would at least make it more efficient to do and it could run13:30
gmaxwellas a side effect of existing txn with no marginal cost.13:30
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gmaxwellthe motivation for using utxo is so that no transactions are required per DHT operation.13:31
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bramcA few people from this channel may or may not be coming to meet me in a minute13:54
kanzureif you stream it i will type it13:54
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gmaxwellbramc: I'm in the lobby in the south building. No one else is here yet. I'll let you know when other people show up.13:57
bramcgmaxwell, Cool I'm upstairs on the 6th floor13:57
gmaxwellK. I'll hang out here for people to show for a bit.13:58
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sipawhich tower?14:01
sipabramc: we'll be there in a few minutes14:01
gmaxwellsipa: south, as I mentioned specifically for your benefit. :)14:02
zookoHuh, I wonder if bramc's new project is exploring side-chainy options.14:02
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kanzurenah they are ging to brawl about proof-of-work14:03
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kanzureso much for that stream14:04
Adlaizooko: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2015-02-14/?msg=31966591&page=114:06
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Adlaias i understand DMMSs, they make most sense when both blockchains use similar (if not identical) PoW algorithms. changing one chain's algorithm would require implementing both verification algorithms in both chains14:08
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zookoAdlai: thanks.14:22
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andytoshiAdlai: "DMMS" simply refers to the cryptographic property required of hash signatures..15:08
andytoshi...what you mean is, "when using a hash signature as a DMMS in one chain of work done on another", it makes most sense for both blockchains to use similar (or identical) PoW algorithms15:08
* Adlai passes the thanks to andytoshi15:09
andytoshiand yes, if you wanted to sidechain a scrypt chain with Bitcoin, say, you'd need an "adaptor" sidechain which understood both PoW15:09
nshhrm15:09
nshso you can bridge PoW like dominoes tiles?15:09
nsh*PoW algorithms15:09
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andytoshinsh: yeah, you'd be moving your coin from Bitcoin to the adaptor chain to the target chain15:09
nshinteresting...15:09
andytoshiand to move back, you'd undo in the same order15:10
nshwhat's the transaction overhead for a chain of atomic swaps of length two like that?15:10
andytoshiwell, for atomic swaps you'd not need any adaptor chains15:10
nshoh, hm15:10
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nshi thought all chains were coupled by atomic swaps...15:10
andytoshibecause they don't use a DMMS, they use 2-of-2 sigs15:10
nshhmm15:11
Adlaiusing atomic swaps, two 2of2 in each chain. using lock/unlock proofs... more than this, depending how large a DMMS is needed for each stage in each chain15:11
andytoshinsh: "atomic swap" refers to a coinswap-like protocol and requires a counterparty on the chain that you're moving to; the alternative is to actually move the coin by the sidechain peg, which doesn't require a counterparty but does require a DMMS15:11
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nshah, right15:12
nshi was conflating atomic swaps with two-way pegs15:12
andytoshithey are totally distinct; the peg would likely only be used by market makers who are moving a lot of coins, since they're slow and big15:12
* nsh nods15:12
Adlai"market takers" would accept swap offers from makers15:12
andytoshiAdlai: sure, but both parties would likely be big players who are somehow making money off of the overhead, with the goal of having a supply of coins on each chain .... as long as there is such a supply, ordinary people would use coinswaps15:13
Adlai"market taker" = ordinary people using coinswaps. i don't think we're in disagreement here, maybe just some confusion about terminology.15:14
andytoshioh :) yes15:15
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Adlaiin this context, market = atomic swap market. i guess you could talk about there being a market for mining lock/unlock proofs, but that's another story15:15
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nshfgodel15:31
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rustynsh: nice find re:timestamping.  Thanks!15:38
nshnp :)15:38
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kanzureare there as many bittorrent forks and variations as there are bitcoin derivatives?16:27
kanzureprotocol-level i mean16:27
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nshnot even remotely...16:41
nsh(because bittorrent is more magically associated with wealth from nowhere)16:41
nsh*is not16:41
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maakukanzure: maybe? theres probably more meaningful changes18:52
kanzurehm.18:53
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everettForthhas anyone looked at altcoins that have implemented zk-snarks?19:13
nshare there any?19:14
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everettForthnsh: I have seen at least one that claims to19:19
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gmaxwellI don't believe there is.19:20
amillereverettForth, which?19:21
everettForthgmaxwell: shadowcash claims to19:21
kanzure.g shadowcash19:21
yoleauxhttp://shadow.cash/19:21
nshclaims 'traceable' ring signature with no trusted setup19:23
nsh.g ext:pdf shadowcase-anon19:23
yoleauxhttp://www.atmos.washington.edu/~siler/SilerRoeDurran2013.pdf19:23
nshhttp://shadow.cash/downloads/shadowcash-anon.pdf19:24
everettForthnsh: I think this ring structure may be outdated19:24
everettForththey have been making changes and left some old pieces in there19:25
gmaxwellI see no evidence of anything zk-snark in it. (fetched the source)19:25
nshthe, ehm, white paper is a bit dubious. a lot more effort was put into the marketing copy in the bitcointalk thread19:25
nshwhich is generally a bad sign19:26
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instagibbs99% sure that paper was posted here before19:27
gmaxwellthere is some amusing cryptographic code in it thats quite concerning.19:27
gmaxwellbut nothing interesting.19:27
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gmaxwellThey're also MIT licens violators (no shock)19:30
nshheh19:30
everettForthok, so no zk-snarks yet I guess, I must have read something on bitcointalk19:31
everettForthgmaxwell: how are they violating the license?19:31
gmaxwellStripped out all attribution, which is the only thing the license requires they not do.19:31
everettForthisn't this attribution: https://github.com/SDCDev/shadowcoin/blob/master/COPYING ?19:33
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gmaxwelleverettForth: they stripped it out of the source files elsewhere (with a search and replace which falsely claims authorship even of files they didn't touch).  No on really cares, I just mentioned it in passing.19:34
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gmaxwellpretty sophicated BRS implementation in it.19:38
everettForthwhat's BRS?19:39
gmaxwellthe bytecoin thing.19:39
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everettForthI wonder how does shadowcash's stealth address work if it's not zk-snarks?19:40
gmaxwellsame way stealth addresses work in Bitcoin.19:40
everettForthah I see, thanks gmaxwell19:42
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everettForthyou guys are pretty smart here, this was so much better than trying to read bitcointalk19:43
sipalol19:43
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instagibbshttp://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/20701/what-is-a-stealth-address for more info everettForth19:44
everettForththanks instagibbs I'm reading that now :)19:44
gmaxwellTranslation: we're too helpful, to the point that wasting our time is eaiser than a moment of research on your own? :)19:44
instagibbsgoogle is still in beta, pretty sure19:45
everettForthWell, i tried to research it, but I got stuck, so I appreciate the moment of clarity from this crowd19:46
everettForththere is a lot of noise even with google helping me19:46
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adam3uslike http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bitcoin+stealth+address20:25
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adam3usaka why are you asking, its the first hit on google search! with a fun slow moving cursor and simulated typing of the search term :)20:26
sipaadam3us: one should never post a non-tinyurl'd lmgtfy link20:26
gmaxwellI dunno, makes the most sense to me.20:27
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instagibbsadam3us: people can't know my secret20:57
instagibbsstop spoiling20:57
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bramcHey everybody. I'm still digesting from the meeting today. Have some thoughts but want to give them a chance to stabilize a bit more before discussing.22:00
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fluffypony[06:26:49]  <sipa>adam3us: one should never post a non-tinyurl'd lmgtfy link <- agreed, you've got to trick them into clicking the link, otherwise your trolling is incomplete23:20
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sipapartial troll is worst troll23:49
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