2015-02-19.log

--- Log opened Thu Feb 19 00:00:58 2015
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kanzure"The ledger is openly viewable by all, so no PoR audits are necessary" big mistake07:19
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nshPoR? proof-of-[revenue?]07:38
nshretriveability?07:38
kanzurereserves, i think07:39
nshah07:40
nshyeah, that's bad logic07:40
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adam3usi think proof of reserve is slightly limited in the sense that its good to see real time status but you can also watch in slo-mo as someone steals the hot-wallet.  visibility but still lose your money.09:32
kanzureyes but they were saying have a list of addresses and outputs instead09:34
kanzurewhich tells you nothing about whether the corresponding private keys are known09:35
adam3usyes improvement over that or nothing for sure09:35
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dabura667https://gist.github.com/dabura667/875bb2c159b219c1888509:39
dabura667I tried to make it legible. Sorry English is not my forte.09:39
kanzure.title09:40
dabura667Anyone with comments please let me know, I'd appreciate it.09:40
yoleauxA proposal for an improved HD wallet generation algorithm09:40
Luke-Jrimproved how?09:40
dabura667Title: A proposal for an improved HD wallet generation algorithm09:40
sipadabura667: there was a talk at FC15 about to extend the bip32 derivation to an arbitrary (but fixed) number of leaks09:41
dabura667sipa: if you set it to tolerate 1 leak, you can use convention to prevent the attack.09:41
dabura667Anywho, my propsal gets into some specifics.09:42
dabura667I have already received feedback from sipa before on the attack method with 2 leaked keys. Now I am just hammering down the details and would appreciate any criticism or help.09:43
sipadabura667: read the fc15 paper, it gives a generic construction for an arbitrary number of leaks09:45
sipahttp://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_15.pdf09:46
dabura667thx09:47
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dabura667my proposal tolerates unlimited key leaks as long as rules are followed. So instead of having a 700 byte xprv for a 20 department company, 2 keys (A and B) are all that is needed in the extended keys.09:55
dabura667maybe my dirty proposal is not worthy of disproving, but I think it is sound. I will start coding an implementation soon to test it out in python.09:56
sipacoding it will not teach you how it can be broken09:57
dabura667yes I am aware.09:57
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stonecoldpatdabura667: all reasonably written proposals that are interesting in my books are worthy of being disproven ;)10:26
nshunfortunately, this tends towards attrition of the limited time of people capable of disproving things10:27
nshwhich for any given proposal might often be better spent elsewhere10:27
stonecoldpatnsh: thats true, i mentioned the disclaimer "interesting" for that reason :)10:32
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* nsh nods10:33
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nshthe problem is that the number of ways to not quite achieve interesting properties >> interesting properties10:33
nshsadly :)10:33
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Adlaikanzure: (i think asimov also had a reversible computation pro-negentropy thing too?) << maybe http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html ?13:41
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kanzurepossibly.13:44
nshso did the vedas...13:44
nshnothing is new under the sun13:44
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gmaxwellI thought about mentioning the last question but it didn't quite match and you didn't ask for the most sublime piece of short science fiction ever authored, and so I figured that wasn't what you were asking for.14:30
Adlaidunno, Feeling of Power comes close in my ranking14:30
Adlaihttp://downlode.org/Etext/power.html (also asimov)14:31
* nsh smiles14:32
gmaxwellAsimov himself said that TLQ was his favorite </appeal to authority>  :)14:32
nshfeeling of power gave me much more of an impulse than the end of the last question14:32
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nshbut they're complementary anyway14:32
nshi think TLQ is a bit more bellygudfeels14:33
nshoh wait, i was conflating feeling of power with another story even14:33
nshthe one about jokes14:33
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nsh(jokester)14:35
nshthe reveal in that is a kind of conceptual hitchcock zoom14:35
Adlainsh: haven't read this one yet, thanq14:35
nshenjoy :)14:35
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amillerokay i'm thikning about variations on nonoutsourceable puzzle arrangements17:53
amilleras i try vainly/desperately to fix my paper so it can get published.17:54
nshcan you define nonoutsourceable puzzle arrangements a little more?17:54
nshas in merkle puzzles?17:54
amillerokay to recap, the basic structure i have is a puzzle with an optional zk proof17:55
nshpuzzle being something that's computationally hard to determine from the inputs?17:55
amillerwhere you can prove, "i know a puzzle solution pointing to previous block P" without indicating what it is17:56
* nsh nods17:56
amillerer you reveal the prevhash P, but nothing about any transactions you may have committed to, nothing about the nonce17:56
amillernow, i make it the zk thing optional because it's a pain to actually have to produce these proofs, but it can be done in say 15 seconds if you have enough parallel cpu17:56
amillerbut,17:57
amillerif there are no pools, and everything else is the same, then no one would want to play at all.17:57
amillersince the variance is so high, you spend $2k on a rig you're still not seeing a block in the next year most likely17:57
amillernow my handwavy solution so far has been, well lets lower the block time17:58
amillerbut that's really not that good a solutino17:59
amillerif the block time were put that low, then that 15 second time would be kind of prohibitive17:59
amillerso here are some of the basic options i'm considering now:18:00
amiller1) suppose there's some chance of winning a "lucky" block, and the lucky block might count for a little bit more difficulty (to offset the time it takes to make a zk proof) and a lot more reward18:00
amillerlike, one out of 4096 blocks gets a 100x reward, and counts for 10x difficulty18:01
amiller(measures of the average difficulty rate and expected reward would need to take that into account)18:02
amillerokay that's one component not a whole solution.18:02
nsh[phonecall, bbiab]18:03
amillercomponent 2) what if you can basically reveal some information more than the prevhash, but only if that extra information is itself a sub-difficulty proof of work chain?18:03
amilleror to put it another way,18:03
amilleryou can reveal enough information that you can participate in p2pool18:03
amillerlet me recap the two extremes and why i've previously settled on one.18:05
amillerthe first extreme is that you reveal the prevhash, and the merkle root of transactions you were committing to, but use zk proofs to hide the nonce and maybe some details that would ordinarily be in the coinbase tx18:06
amillerthe reason this defeats the nonoutsourceability premise is that18:06
amillera pool could catch defectors by basically assigning a unique sentinel transaction in the merkle root of the work it hands out to each different user18:06
gmaxwellIf a pool is handing out tx sets that depending on a old model of pooling that really should go away.18:07
gmaxwell(there is no reason for pools to manage the consensus, miners should be able to pick the chain/tx sets themselves and have pools pay them on the basis of coinbase outputs)18:08
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amilleryeah but that doesn't matter in this context18:09
amillerthe scenario here is, suppose pools are trying to find ways of still existing despite a nonoutsourceable puzzle that tries to make them not work18:09
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gmaxwelloh sorry, yea, my error there.18:10
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gmaxwell(I was reading LIFO)18:10
amillerheh, now that you know what i'm trying to talk about again you may want to tune out :p18:10
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amillerokay so the other extreme, which is the main assumption i've been working in for describing nonoutsourceable puzzles, is you reveal as little about any committed informaiton as you possibly can18:11
amillerno merkle root, no nonce, no timestamp, just the prevhash, which seems unavoidable.18:12
amillerokay so this extreme sucks because it breaks P2Pool18:12
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amillerthrowing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak18:12
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amillerthat's becuase p2pool works by showing other people your near-miss work shares, and showing that the work you were doing would have paid out to them if you had won.18:13
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amillerokay so,18:20
amillera compromise between those extremes18:20
amilleris to allow the zk proof to reveal more than just the prevhash,18:20
amillerbut something that makes adding per-user watermarks harder.18:21
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amilleryou could allow the zk proof to reveal a p2pool-like shares-chain18:21
amillersince it has to come with some valid work, it wouldn't be possible to freely farm out different ones to different pool members18:22
amilleryou'd have to solve a proof-of-work puzzles just to do that!18:22
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amillerugh well, that's the key observation, it might be safe to commit to some informaiton you're oging to later reveal even though the rest is in zk, because at least that thwarts pools easily making different values for every person18:42
amilleri'm having a hard time thinking through how to use that to best effect18:42
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amillerthe difference between the total hash rate (350M gigahertz) vs a $50 mining device (10Ghz) is still 35 million. It would be impossible to make p2pool parameters such that someone with the 10ghz right wins a 'share' every day... that would be 35M shares and therefore as many txoutputs18:45
amillerp2pool has like 2M GH/s so that's still 300k of the 10GH/s chips.... yet only like 3k p2pool shares are found in a day so still pretty far off, let alone if everyone used p2pool18:58
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* zooko has read with interest and with partial comprehension.19:11
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amilleri duno now i'm having second thoughts about whether this is feasible at even a high level19:19
amillerthe harm in pooling comes from letting someone else decide what you work on19:19
amillerit still costs nothing to do that, even if you are solo mining19:19
amillerfurthermore if you are committing to prevhash, which i think you must be doing, then a coercer could still bribe you to do work reverting some history19:21
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amillerin general, the reason to follow 'soft fork' rules is that majority of miners won't build on your block if you don't19:27
amillerthat rule by majority is assumed 'ok'19:27
amillersome subbehavior, like a black list enforced by a few pool operators, is a problem, although if its effective its because its still a majority behavior19:28
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amillerso i guess what i want is to make it encouraged to defect from any *small* coalition but still to do what the majority wants19:46
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