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| kanzure | "The ledger is openly viewable by all, so no PoR audits are necessary" big mistake | 07:19 |
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| nsh | PoR? proof-of-[revenue?] | 07:38 |
| nsh | retriveability? | 07:38 |
| kanzure | reserves, i think | 07:39 |
| nsh | ah | 07:40 |
| nsh | yeah, that's bad logic | 07:40 |
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| adam3us | i think proof of reserve is slightly limited in the sense that its good to see real time status but you can also watch in slo-mo as someone steals the hot-wallet. visibility but still lose your money. | 09:32 |
| kanzure | yes but they were saying have a list of addresses and outputs instead | 09:34 |
| kanzure | which tells you nothing about whether the corresponding private keys are known | 09:35 |
| adam3us | yes improvement over that or nothing for sure | 09:35 |
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| dabura667 | https://gist.github.com/dabura667/875bb2c159b219c18885 | 09:39 |
| dabura667 | I tried to make it legible. Sorry English is not my forte. | 09:39 |
| kanzure | .title | 09:40 |
| dabura667 | Anyone with comments please let me know, I'd appreciate it. | 09:40 |
| yoleaux | A proposal for an improved HD wallet generation algorithm | 09:40 |
| Luke-Jr | improved how? | 09:40 |
| dabura667 | Title: A proposal for an improved HD wallet generation algorithm | 09:40 |
| sipa | dabura667: there was a talk at FC15 about to extend the bip32 derivation to an arbitrary (but fixed) number of leaks | 09:41 |
| dabura667 | sipa: if you set it to tolerate 1 leak, you can use convention to prevent the attack. | 09:41 |
| dabura667 | Anywho, my propsal gets into some specifics. | 09:42 |
| dabura667 | I have already received feedback from sipa before on the attack method with 2 leaked keys. Now I am just hammering down the details and would appreciate any criticism or help. | 09:43 |
| sipa | dabura667: read the fc15 paper, it gives a generic construction for an arbitrary number of leaks | 09:45 |
| sipa | http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_15.pdf | 09:46 |
| dabura667 | thx | 09:47 |
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| dabura667 | my proposal tolerates unlimited key leaks as long as rules are followed. So instead of having a 700 byte xprv for a 20 department company, 2 keys (A and B) are all that is needed in the extended keys. | 09:55 |
| dabura667 | maybe my dirty proposal is not worthy of disproving, but I think it is sound. I will start coding an implementation soon to test it out in python. | 09:56 |
| sipa | coding it will not teach you how it can be broken | 09:57 |
| dabura667 | yes I am aware. | 09:57 |
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| stonecoldpat | dabura667: all reasonably written proposals that are interesting in my books are worthy of being disproven ;) | 10:26 |
| nsh | unfortunately, this tends towards attrition of the limited time of people capable of disproving things | 10:27 |
| nsh | which for any given proposal might often be better spent elsewhere | 10:27 |
| stonecoldpat | nsh: thats true, i mentioned the disclaimer "interesting" for that reason :) | 10:32 |
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| * nsh nods | 10:33 | |
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| nsh | the problem is that the number of ways to not quite achieve interesting properties >> interesting properties | 10:33 |
| nsh | sadly :) | 10:33 |
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| Adlai | kanzure: (i think asimov also had a reversible computation pro-negentropy thing too?) << maybe http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html ? | 13:41 |
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| kanzure | possibly. | 13:44 |
| nsh | so did the vedas... | 13:44 |
| nsh | nothing is new under the sun | 13:44 |
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| gmaxwell | I thought about mentioning the last question but it didn't quite match and you didn't ask for the most sublime piece of short science fiction ever authored, and so I figured that wasn't what you were asking for. | 14:30 |
| Adlai | dunno, Feeling of Power comes close in my ranking | 14:30 |
| Adlai | http://downlode.org/Etext/power.html (also asimov) | 14:31 |
| * nsh smiles | 14:32 | |
| gmaxwell | Asimov himself said that TLQ was his favorite </appeal to authority> :) | 14:32 |
| nsh | feeling of power gave me much more of an impulse than the end of the last question | 14:32 |
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| nsh | but they're complementary anyway | 14:32 |
| nsh | i think TLQ is a bit more bellygudfeels | 14:33 |
| nsh | oh wait, i was conflating feeling of power with another story even | 14:33 |
| nsh | the one about jokes | 14:33 |
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| nsh | (jokester) | 14:35 |
| nsh | the reveal in that is a kind of conceptual hitchcock zoom | 14:35 |
| Adlai | nsh: haven't read this one yet, thanq | 14:35 |
| nsh | enjoy :) | 14:35 |
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| amiller | okay i'm thikning about variations on nonoutsourceable puzzle arrangements | 17:53 |
| amiller | as i try vainly/desperately to fix my paper so it can get published. | 17:54 |
| nsh | can you define nonoutsourceable puzzle arrangements a little more? | 17:54 |
| nsh | as in merkle puzzles? | 17:54 |
| amiller | okay to recap, the basic structure i have is a puzzle with an optional zk proof | 17:55 |
| nsh | puzzle being something that's computationally hard to determine from the inputs? | 17:55 |
| amiller | where you can prove, "i know a puzzle solution pointing to previous block P" without indicating what it is | 17:56 |
| * nsh nods | 17:56 | |
| amiller | er you reveal the prevhash P, but nothing about any transactions you may have committed to, nothing about the nonce | 17:56 |
| amiller | now, i make it the zk thing optional because it's a pain to actually have to produce these proofs, but it can be done in say 15 seconds if you have enough parallel cpu | 17:56 |
| amiller | but, | 17:57 |
| amiller | if there are no pools, and everything else is the same, then no one would want to play at all. | 17:57 |
| amiller | since the variance is so high, you spend $2k on a rig you're still not seeing a block in the next year most likely | 17:57 |
| amiller | now my handwavy solution so far has been, well lets lower the block time | 17:58 |
| amiller | but that's really not that good a solutino | 17:59 |
| amiller | if the block time were put that low, then that 15 second time would be kind of prohibitive | 17:59 |
| amiller | so here are some of the basic options i'm considering now: | 18:00 |
| amiller | 1) suppose there's some chance of winning a "lucky" block, and the lucky block might count for a little bit more difficulty (to offset the time it takes to make a zk proof) and a lot more reward | 18:00 |
| amiller | like, one out of 4096 blocks gets a 100x reward, and counts for 10x difficulty | 18:01 |
| amiller | (measures of the average difficulty rate and expected reward would need to take that into account) | 18:02 |
| amiller | okay that's one component not a whole solution. | 18:02 |
| nsh | [phonecall, bbiab] | 18:03 |
| amiller | component 2) what if you can basically reveal some information more than the prevhash, but only if that extra information is itself a sub-difficulty proof of work chain? | 18:03 |
| amiller | or to put it another way, | 18:03 |
| amiller | you can reveal enough information that you can participate in p2pool | 18:03 |
| amiller | let me recap the two extremes and why i've previously settled on one. | 18:05 |
| amiller | the first extreme is that you reveal the prevhash, and the merkle root of transactions you were committing to, but use zk proofs to hide the nonce and maybe some details that would ordinarily be in the coinbase tx | 18:06 |
| amiller | the reason this defeats the nonoutsourceability premise is that | 18:06 |
| amiller | a pool could catch defectors by basically assigning a unique sentinel transaction in the merkle root of the work it hands out to each different user | 18:06 |
| gmaxwell | If a pool is handing out tx sets that depending on a old model of pooling that really should go away. | 18:07 |
| gmaxwell | (there is no reason for pools to manage the consensus, miners should be able to pick the chain/tx sets themselves and have pools pay them on the basis of coinbase outputs) | 18:08 |
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| amiller | yeah but that doesn't matter in this context | 18:09 |
| amiller | the scenario here is, suppose pools are trying to find ways of still existing despite a nonoutsourceable puzzle that tries to make them not work | 18:09 |
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| gmaxwell | oh sorry, yea, my error there. | 18:10 |
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| gmaxwell | (I was reading LIFO) | 18:10 |
| amiller | heh, now that you know what i'm trying to talk about again you may want to tune out :p | 18:10 |
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| amiller | okay so the other extreme, which is the main assumption i've been working in for describing nonoutsourceable puzzles, is you reveal as little about any committed informaiton as you possibly can | 18:11 |
| amiller | no merkle root, no nonce, no timestamp, just the prevhash, which seems unavoidable. | 18:12 |
| amiller | okay so this extreme sucks because it breaks P2Pool | 18:12 |
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| amiller | throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak | 18:12 |
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| amiller | that's becuase p2pool works by showing other people your near-miss work shares, and showing that the work you were doing would have paid out to them if you had won. | 18:13 |
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| amiller | okay so, | 18:20 |
| amiller | a compromise between those extremes | 18:20 |
| amiller | is to allow the zk proof to reveal more than just the prevhash, | 18:20 |
| amiller | but something that makes adding per-user watermarks harder. | 18:21 |
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| amiller | you could allow the zk proof to reveal a p2pool-like shares-chain | 18:21 |
| amiller | since it has to come with some valid work, it wouldn't be possible to freely farm out different ones to different pool members | 18:22 |
| amiller | you'd have to solve a proof-of-work puzzles just to do that! | 18:22 |
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| amiller | ugh well, that's the key observation, it might be safe to commit to some informaiton you're oging to later reveal even though the rest is in zk, because at least that thwarts pools easily making different values for every person | 18:42 |
| amiller | i'm having a hard time thinking through how to use that to best effect | 18:42 |
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| amiller | the difference between the total hash rate (350M gigahertz) vs a $50 mining device (10Ghz) is still 35 million. It would be impossible to make p2pool parameters such that someone with the 10ghz right wins a 'share' every day... that would be 35M shares and therefore as many txoutputs | 18:45 |
| amiller | p2pool has like 2M GH/s so that's still 300k of the 10GH/s chips.... yet only like 3k p2pool shares are found in a day so still pretty far off, let alone if everyone used p2pool | 18:58 |
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| * zooko has read with interest and with partial comprehension. | 19:11 | |
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| amiller | i duno now i'm having second thoughts about whether this is feasible at even a high level | 19:19 |
| amiller | the harm in pooling comes from letting someone else decide what you work on | 19:19 |
| amiller | it still costs nothing to do that, even if you are solo mining | 19:19 |
| amiller | furthermore if you are committing to prevhash, which i think you must be doing, then a coercer could still bribe you to do work reverting some history | 19:21 |
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| amiller | in general, the reason to follow 'soft fork' rules is that majority of miners won't build on your block if you don't | 19:27 |
| amiller | that rule by majority is assumed 'ok' | 19:27 |
| amiller | some subbehavior, like a black list enforced by a few pool operators, is a problem, although if its effective its because its still a majority behavior | 19:28 |
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| amiller | so i guess what i want is to make it encouraged to defect from any *small* coalition but still to do what the majority wants | 19:46 |
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