2015-02-25.log

--- Log opened Wed Feb 25 00:00:04 2015
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gmaxwellseems the bitcoin foundation switched in the middle of their board election during the runoffs to use some completely insane "blockchain voting system"00:18
gmaxwellrun by something called "swarm" which is some crazy flavor of the week altcoin/fundraising platform or something.00:18
gmaxwellIn any case, miners get to pick the foundation board members it seems.00:18
gmaxwellFor example, censoring payments to 1MG6SSwK2qSASM2QgBez2g4YFe3ib4d2eL will block Olivier Janssens from being selected.00:19
gmaxwellthe site is too buggy for me to even get up the interfaces for each of the candidates.00:19
* [nsh] sighs00:21
fluffyponyBLOCKCHAIN ALL THE THINGS!00:27
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gmaxwellanother property of this system is that its really easy to sell your vote.00:37
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phantomcircuitgmaxwell, iirc the modification to the voting rules was not properly passed either00:58
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gmaxwellis anyone else able to get the information out of this thing? for me it seems that it's only possible to vote for Olivier Janssens right now, everyone else it just returns that its not ready yet.00:59
kinlothe vote is for "industry" members only?01:00
kinloor is there another reason why I didn't get an invite...01:00
gmaxwellno, it's for general members.01:00
gmaxwellIf you have an active indivigual membership you should have gotten an invite.01:01
gmaxwellinvites for the runoffs may still be going out.01:01
kinloI've got an active membership01:01
kinlowhat's the subjectline?01:01
gmaxwelle.g. "Deadline to Confirm Your Membership to Vote in Runoff Election is TODAY Mon, Feb 23 at 11:59pm EST"01:04
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* andy-logbot is logging01:05
kinloright, those pesky html mails01:06
kinloseems my spamfilter was overly active01:06
gmaxwellyea, they got flagged as spam for lots of people; doesn't help that they'd used mass mailing services.01:07
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gmaxwellreddit thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2x3ffk/bitcoin_foundation_runoff_voting_live_stats_2015/01:11
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kinloso I missed all deadlines to register :)01:14
kinlowont be voting in other words01:14
gmaxwellkinlo: Yup, alas. Sorry I didn't mention it here previously.01:14
kinloyou're not to blame01:15
kinloI have no idea on whom to vote anyway01:15
kinlolast time I took the time to read all candidates proposals, but for now most names are meaningless01:15
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phantomcircuitERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: non-final02:29
phantomcircuitwhere is this garbage coming from02:29
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gmaxwellphantomcircuit: add logging?02:30
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gmaxwelllol, gotta love reddit downvoting: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2x3687/bitcoin_foundations_runoff_election_conducted_100/cowjkx102:39
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stonecoldpatis there any technical description for how the voting thing works with swarm?02:53
sipamagic blockchain sprinkles02:54
sipafixes the universe02:54
gmaxwellstonecoldpat: I can't find any writeup (why would you want your cryptosystem subject to review???)02:54
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gmaxwellstonecoldpat: it looks like there is an xcp issued asset for each candidate and you send them to yes or no addresses.. but it's hard to tell.02:55
gmaxwell(so much for transparency, the indirection through xcp means that no normal bitcoin software can see whats going on)02:55
sipahow do you do the voting?02:55
gmaxwellJS webwallet, it's super glitchy. Seems I can't vote.02:56
sipado you need a counterparty client?02:56
gmaxwellwell calling it a webwallet is a streach it seems to be an ajax front end to a server there isn't much client side code.02:56
sipawtf02:56
sipawhat's the point of using a decentralized system through a centralized client...?02:57
sipa(even if using a blockchain for this would make sense at all)02:57
gmaxwellwell the helios stuff was via a centeral server but it was all user-auditable. (I even did the audit steps for it, they were trivial)02:59
stonecoldpatlol... magic blockchain sprinkles... the blog post made it sound like a quick knock up of a voting system and i think you guys just confirmed that03:04
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fluffypony[12:39:55]  <gmaxwell>lol, gotta love reddit downvoting <- well you *did* insult the Holy Blockchain, you know how Reddit takes that03:44
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gmaxwellhttp://envisage-project.eu/proving-android-java-and-python-sorting-algorithm-is-broken-and-how-to-fix-it/  sort busted in python, hope no one has made any normative cryptographic protocols that depeneded on sort behavior in java or python.03:55
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hearngmaxwell: seems like it causes a crash rather than incorrect results?04:03
hearnthough KeY looks interesting04:05
hearnit's sort of disappointing how often these provers require apparently redundant annotations though04:07
hearnthe loop invariants there could have been automatically deduced04:07
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gmaxwellMost of these tools basically cannot read code and require effectietly rewriting the software in their own language... so thats one of the major limitations; since the faithfulness of the analysis depends on hand translation.04:10
gmaxwellmight be best to think about it as going through engineering diagrams with a pocket calculator to double check all the figuring. ... which is a completely reasonable practice on a sufficiently critical system.04:11
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justanotheruserIs there ane reason for voting to be decentralized?04:29
sipaif it could be done without other compromises, perhaps - decentralization means no central party can obstruct the voting04:30
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hearnjustanotheruser: electronic voting protocols mostly focus on auditability and other properties rather than hard-core decentralisation04:31
sipabut here it comes at the cost of privacy, vote secrecy, influencing the outcome, and inability to sell off your vote04:31
hearnarguably bitcoin focuses on decentralisation to the extent it does for political reasons that don't apply very well to the matter of voting04:31
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justanotheruseryes, auditability seems more important04:32
sipathere exist perfectly good cryptographic voting algorithms which have all these properties04:33
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sipausing a blockchain is inefficient and a step back in so many ways, just for thr price of being able to call it "decentralized" (even though it's just done through a centralized website you need to trust, lol)04:33
hearni would not say they are perfectly good :) I have some of my own designs for this space04:33
midnightmagic'first meaningful vote ever done on blockchain technology'04:35
sipafirst and hooefully last04:35
* midnightmagic washes mouth of bad flavour04:35
justanotherusersipa: which one? How can you have a decentralized set of people come to consensus on what votes have been made?04:36
justanotheruserCouldn't some just ignore anothers votes04:37
sipajustanotheruser: it's just not decentralized04:37
justanotheruserso what is its censorship prevention mechanism04:38
sipabut cryptographic voting protocol that offer secrecy, auditability, inability to influence votes, and inability to prove afterwards what you voted for exist04:38
sipait's called anonimity04:38
stonecoldpatjustanotheruser: a good read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_auditable_voting_systems04:38
midnightmagicthen meatspace problems get in the way04:39
hearnmost existing voting protocols have the issue that they are not resistant against malware on the voting devices04:39
sipahearn: fair enough, but if we're talking about that, we shouldn't be using a javascriot webbased client for surr04:40
sipajavascript, sure04:40
hearni quite agree!04:40
hearnmy own idea involved sending someone a book of QR codes containing encrypted votes (or hashes of them) through the mail04:40
hearnthe paper would be thick enough that no camera could observe the other side of each page04:40
hearnthe idea is you flick through the book to find an appropriate QR code for your vote, and hold it up to the camera so the device never knows what vote you are actually casting04:41
hearnthe endpoint is blind to the contents of the vote for the entire time04:41
hearnit works best for simple yes/no votes rather than complicated leadership elections with runoffs, etc04:41
stonecoldpatthe problem then is coercion - someone can stand in the background to make sure you vote in a certain way04:41
justanotheruserstonecoldpat: Just reading that it seems someone can't prove to anyone else that their vote wasn't counter04:41
justanotheruser*counted04:42
stonecoldpatif you live in northern ireland, that would certainly be the case04:42
sipajustanotheruser: yes, and that is a feature04:42
sipaif you're able to prove your vote to someone else, you can sell your vote04:43
justanotheruseryeah, I'm just saying that there isn't a censorship prevention mechanism04:43
stonecoldpatthere is, its a receipt-based system04:43
hearnstonecoldpat: you're supposed to be voting from home, right04:43
hearnso i figure someone literally watching over your shoulder is not a big deal04:44
sipathere is a mechanism against biased censorship04:44
stonecoldpatyou can see that your voted was accounted for, but you can't prove to someone else how oyu voted04:44
sipajustanotheruser: the server can go.doen, meaning no votes at all happen04:44
sipa*go down04:44
sipathat's about it04:44
sipastonecoldpat: the receipts don't help against censorship; if the server knows your ip address and refuses connections from you, you are censored04:46
sipathe receipts provide auditability after the fact04:47
hearnyeah mostly you want to connect to the servers via tor04:47
sipaindeed04:47
midnightmagicwell.. it is a pretty big deal when the someone watching over your shoulder is a family member expecting you to vote the right way04:52
midnightmagicthere's a lot of presumption of personal agency in those protocols04:53
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stonecoldpatsipa: fair point, i wasn't thinking about connections being refused04:59
stonecoldpatwhere I live, the political parties will personally drive you to the ballot to vote, I can't imagine what they would try to do if you voted at home, so that worries me04:59
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sipamidnightmagic: yeah, i think electronic voting is strictly inferior to paper-based go-alone-into-a-room voting in terms of privacy and transparency05:09
sipabut it's so convenient05:09
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instagibbsI can't even figure out *how* to vote. I will sell my vote to someone who will vote for the person who votes to never do blockchain/swarm voting again.05:29
instagibbsI am registered. I got the email. When I log in it's just some web page I can't navigate05:29
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instagibbsoh.... you click that "paper wallet" backup thing, then it appears. wtf?05:33
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gavinandresensipa: I agree, paper voting’s long track record of being good enough at preventing massive fraud (assuming the organization controlling the voting is honest) makes it superior to new, untested electronic voting systems.06:20
gavinandresensipa: However, I also think it is OK to experiment with newfangled stuff when the stakes are low.06:20
gavinandresen… and in my opinion the election of 2 Foundation board members is low-stakes. We’re not talking president of the World Bank here....06:21
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gavinandresenWhether or not the Swarm voting system is good or not, I have no idea, I stepped away from running-the-Foundation stuff as quickly as I could after it had enough money to hire people to do that stuff.06:23
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sipagavinandresen: experimenting i'm all for; but using a blockchain for voting is outright silly, compared to the existing alternatives06:31
gavinandresenthere are lots of things I thought were silly that turned out to be interesting06:32
sipaname me one advantage it has, and i may be convinced06:32
gavinandresenMore things that were silly that actually are just silly, of course06:33
gavinandresenit’s got a nifty PR smell06:33
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gavinandresenengineers always underestimate the value of public relations........06:33
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gavinandresen(myself included, I think it’s silly)06:34
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hearnBF should probably be positioning itself as "we do cool things with cryptography" rather than the block chain specifically06:34
sipareally, there is a difference between trying different approaches that have different tradeoffs, and using something that is clearly worse in every single way06:34
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gavinandresenmmm.  Well, if it was my decision Foundation members would get paper ballots with a unique nonce that they could either mail back in or use the nonce to vote at a web page. But I’m not excited about experimenting with voting on a blockchain.06:38
sipaI don't get it. The whole point of the blockchain was needed because no identity was wanted in the system. In voting, you have identity, so you don't need the massive compromises and costs a blockchain brings. Why do you want the worst of both worlds?06:40
kinlosounds to me it is indeed a bad idea06:40
gavinandresenI’ll play Devil’s Advocate a little more:  your view of the blockchain is wrong. It is a global, secure, public ledger, appropriate for any application that requires a secure ledger of what happened.06:42
gavinandresenIdentity is orthogonal06:42
gavinandresenAnd if you can issue identity tokens associated with transactions on the ledger, then it is a perfectly reasonable permanent record of a vote.06:42
kinloare you then claiming the blockchain is not just for bitcoin but for much more?06:42
gavinandresen(I don’t actually know if I believe all that, so don’t press me too hard :)06:42
kinlopersonally I see the blockchain for bitcoin only06:43
gavinandresenkinlo: sure, why not?  Currency had to be the first application to make the incentives work, but why not more?06:43
kinloand only the bitcoin blockchain is the only useable blockchain06:43
gavinandresenkinlo: do you like the idea of a decentralized DNS?06:44
kinlogavinandresen: because I prefer to think in different categories, I'd prefer to use those things somewhat seperated, not coupling it to bitcoin transactions.  IE, it is ok to store other data in the blockchain, but let's not use bitcoin for that06:44
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kinlogavinandresen: yes I like the idea of decentralized dns06:45
gavinandresenkinlo: do you think NameCoin did the right thing in creating a separate currency to try to incentivize that system?06:45
gavinandresen(I think that was a huge mistake)06:45
kinloI think the whole idea of a sidechain was ideal for that06:46
gavinandresenI agree, but sidechains are a good way of using the bitcoin blockchain for other things06:46
kinlothe merged mining was the best part: getting the security (at least partially) from the bitcoin blockchain, but still not storing all that stuff in the main chain06:46
gavinandresenI’m not suggesting storing lots of data in the UTXO or even spent TX sets....06:46
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kinlothat's basicly my point, OK to use the blockchain's mechanism of ordering blocks, but not all data needs to go to the utxo or use the same rules in validation as bitcoin does06:47
kinloand there can only be one blockchain, so the sidechains need to be coupled somehow06:48
gavinandresenThere is the question “does SWARM have a reasonable architecture for doing voting on a chain”  <— I have no idea, haven’t looked.  And the separate question “Does voting on a chain make sense?”  <— sipa’s objection, I think.06:48
kinloI haven't looked in all the details, just figured out today that my spam filter ate all foundation mails so I didn't even knew in time about the voting at all06:49
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instagibbsthe key is that *deciding on the true state of the ledger* does not use identities. I still think voting on blockchain is silly, unless you have to use some PoS-ish scheme(and even then probably better ways of doing it)06:53
kanzureso your argument against sipa was "it sounds cool"?07:01
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kanzuregavinandresen: btw i dunno if i snagged you to mention this but if you have future livestreamed things that you would like transcripts of, i can arrange that: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-devcore-2015/gavinandresen/07:03
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maakugavinandresen: the question is not whether Swarm has a good architecture, but whether they _can_. You simply cannot have a fair election on a blockchain. Not with foreseeable technology.09:01
maakuIt's mud on the foundation's face to even go down this route.09:02
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jcorgan"blockchain" has become the new cargo cult technology; you can use it for everything, because, <mumble mumble> Bitcoin!10:08
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justanotheruserjcorgan: well even if Bitcoin fails, we still have the blockchain10:23
kanzureblockchainium is a well-known variant of computronium10:23
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justanotheruserThere was some guy on #bitcoin asking "doesn't every decentralized program need a blockchain". I'm starting to think that isn't an isolated case10:24
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kanzurei suspect that as more people learn about blockchain things, they should be advised to compensate in their reasoning for their greater knowledge of blockchain things compared to their other (prehaps lacking?) knowledge of other software. that way, they wont inadvertedly accidentally end up misapplying wrong technology to the wrong problems.10:26
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ajweiss"i'm not sure if a blockchain makes sense here, perhaps you should look into singly linked lists..."11:33
ajweiss"you may find that the time complexity of insertions is far easier to manage"11:34
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gmaxwellso... 100k of UTXO bloat that will never go away for this swarm debacle (595 voters, 40 bytes utxo, 4 candidates). Presumably no one but the users have the private keys to the ballots (or otherwise...)15:48
lechuga_lol15:50
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justanotheruserhaving 600 people create vote transactions for the miners to use is a really inefficient way for miners to vote!16:00
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Luke-Jrjustanotheruser: I suppose it places oversight on miners' votes to some limited degree16:10
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instagibbsI did my part(TM) and refused to vote until they switched it back16:32
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maakugmaxwell: no way to clean that up?17:07
copumpkinwhat's the status on sidechains?17:08
copumpkinhaven't heard much about them recently17:08
justanotherusermaaku: if you want to softfork and have potentially a forbidden change over a utxo size decrease17:10
justanotherusercopumpkin: IIRC there will be demo (federated trust?) sidechains soonish17:11
maakucopumpkin: we will be releasing some code related to the federated peg soon17:11
copumpkinah cool17:11
copumpkinany writings on what's planned?17:11
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maakucopumpkin: too busy actually writing it to write about it :(17:12
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copumpkinI know the feeling :)17:12
copumpkincarry on!17:12
maakubut speaking of too much to do, we can use some help : http://blockstream.com/jobs17:12
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justanotherusermaaku: out of curiousity, is everyone remote?17:13
sipawe live on the interwebz17:13
copumpkinhah, I enjoy mine too much to do that, but it certainly sounds fun17:13
justanotheruserthats probably for the best17:14
belchermaaku how are you paying the salaries of those positions? VC money?17:14
maakuhappy to answer these on #blockstream17:15
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instagibbsmaaku: changing up my work soon, unfortunately I'm in wrong sub-field of CS :)19:06
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