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| kanzure | "Devaluation expectations and speculative attacks on the currency" http://www.suomenpankki.fi/pdf/SP_RP_1987_05.pdf | 06:44 |
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| instagibbs | I want to know the solution to the puzzle once this "contest" is over; I'm way too amateur to figure it out, but trying to learn. | 07:08 |
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| fluffypony | kanzure: that was such a fun read - someone should take modern whitepapers / research papers that are released and process them through an old-school typewriter font + fax machine paper | 07:17 |
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| fluffypony | (being serious about it being fun, not sarcastic) | 07:18 |
| jcorgan | there's a latex add-on to add coffee stains | 07:18 |
| fluffypony | lol | 07:18 |
| nubbins` | fluffypony i published a 200-page novel in 2013 with a typewriter font | 07:18 |
| nubbins` | people seem to either enjoy it or REALLY REALLY HATE IT | 07:19 |
| jcorgan | http://hanno-rein.de/archives/349 | 07:19 |
| fluffypony | lol | 07:19 |
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| kanzure | "In this paper we relaxed the assumption that investors have perfect information" | 07:36 |
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| wumpus | "in this paper we relaxed the assumption that cows are spherical" | 08:16 |
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| justanotheruser | hehe | 08:17 |
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| bramc | Okay, so collaborative mining is a bust, but it might be that having two proofs of storage in a row works better than one. | 10:17 |
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| bramc | Or maybe even three. Four is definitely overkill though. | 10:18 |
| Eliel | bramc: the buster is the block withholding attack? | 10:20 |
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| bramc | Eliel, Yeah, using multiple responses to a single challenge to form a block is busted by withholding, but making it so that the second one has a different challenge based on the results of the first one has less withholding problems because you can't guess how good others's supplements to the first one are likely to be. | 10:22 |
| tromp | bram; you sound a bit like that holy handgrenade scene from Monty Python:) | 10:22 |
| zooko | ☺ | 10:23 |
| fluffypony | nobody expects the Spanish inquisition | 10:23 |
| fluffypony | nobody. | 10:23 |
| Eliel | bramc: I think you can at best reduce it to being about as vulnerable to block witholding as bitcoin's mining mechanism is. | 10:24 |
| bramc | I'll explain things more clearly when I have something which works notably better than my last iteration | 10:24 |
| bramc | Eliel, not really, there are inherent problems when there's no extra cost to mining a fork | 10:25 |
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| bramc | At the moment I *think* that doing three proofs of storage followed by a proof of time can basically nuke the pooling advantage from mining forks, but it gives a bonus to withholdings, so I need to work this all out. | 10:31 |
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| bramc | The whole thing smacks into miner's dilemma as well | 10:33 |
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| bramc | On the plus side, whatever withholding attacks there are on the back-to-back pos system, they don't result in infinite forks systemic meltdown | 10:59 |
| brisque | avoiding systemic meltdown is always a good goal. | 11:01 |
| bramc | So I may just run numbers, decide that triple-pos makes the chances of systemic meltdown very small, and say fuck it about the withholding attacks. | 11:02 |
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| lechuga_ | lol@wumpus | 11:57 |
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| rusty | Is there a good primer on EC math anywhere? Coursera's Crypto I didn't cover it, and parsing wikipedia leads me down many garden paths... | 17:16 |
| zooko | I don't really understand EC math myself, | 17:17 |
| zooko | but, there is a lecture by DJB that seems to start from first principles. | 17:17 |
| zooko | So... I'm not really aware of a good primer. :-( | 17:17 |
| gwillen | rusty: crypto II is supposed to cover it, if he ever does that | 17:18 |
| rusty | gwillen: indeed, and I'm signed up if and when... | 17:19 |
| gwillen | current alleged start date is june 1 | 17:19 |
| gwillen | but we've heard that before ;-) | 17:19 |
| justanotheruser | rusty: I like the wiki page tbh | 17:20 |
| zooko | Hm, and I can't find that lecture that I saw. Sorry. | 17:20 |
| rusty | zooko: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6jTFxQaUJA ? | 17:20 |
| kanzure | how about http://antoanthongtin.vn/Portals/0/UploadImages/kiennt2/BaiBao/DuLieu/2.State%20of%20the%20art%20in%20applied%20cryptography%201997-LNCS%201528/15280131.PDF | 17:21 |
| zooko | rusty: that looks perfect. :-) | 17:21 |
| * zooko starts watching it | 17:21 | |
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| zooko | Whoops, got to go. Just got to the part about how to get away from those tricky non-discrete trig formulas. :- | 17:31 |
| zooko | ) | 17:31 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6jTFxQaUJA | 17:33 |
| yoleaux | ECCHacks - A gentle introduction to elliptic-curve cryptography [31c3] - YouTube | 17:33 |
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| brisque | I think a lot of people's introduction to bitcoin is hampered by people's poor explanations of ECDSA. you're better off knowing it's properties and otherwise black boxing it than having a half assed understanding that is ultimately meaningless. | 17:35 |
| jcorgan | ^^ knowing how it behaves and what properties you can assume lets you make better decisions; understanding why those behaviors exist and why the properties are what they are is less important. | 17:36 |
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| brisque | that goes for a lot of things in bitcoin really. | 17:46 |
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| brisque | black boxing shad256d is a nice start. | 17:46 |
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| jcorgan | and there aren't that many black boxes in bitcoin to understand | 17:50 |
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| brisque | sha256d and ecdsa are two that trip people up usually | 17:51 |
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| dgenr8 | waiting for crypto II too. DJB is clearly a Knuth disciple as it relates to timelines | 17:53 |
| jcorgan | well, pay-to-pubkey-hash seems to get universally black-boxed as "an address is an account that holds bitcoin" | 17:53 |
| brisque | much to the damage of gmaxwell's forehead. | 17:55 |
| jcorgan | even gribble, our saintly fount of all knowing, makes that mistake | 17:55 |
| brisque | it's a lot due to block explorers and people's desire to try to "organise" things in particular ways, not realising accounts are a feature of the wallet and utterly unrelated to addresses. | 17:56 |
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| jcorgan | something as simple as "Redeemable Unspent Receipts" as a table header instead of "Addresses and Balances" would go a long way. But people see the latter in pretty much every wallet. | 17:59 |
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| brisque | damage is already done. | 18:00 |
| jcorgan | and showing two UTXOs with the same pubkey hash should be highlighted in red as "ambiguous" | 18:01 |
| justanotheruser | !balance 1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX | 18:02 |
| gribble | 0.51465589 | 18:02 |
| brisque | some PKH have tens or hundreds of thousands of UTXO, enough to crash any browser | 18:02 |
| brisque | high water mark is 3 million total outputs for one address. | 18:04 |
| jcorgan | dice? | 18:05 |
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| brisque | you know it. | 18:06 |
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| instagibbs | brisque: for the longest time I only knew the high-level black box. Crypto 1 was my first attempt at digging deeper. Little peeved there was no signature/ECC stuff :) | 19:58 |
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| kanzure | what we really need is smart matter that cannot rise above a certain temperature so that nobody will be foolish enough to implement a hot wallet with said matter | 20:24 |
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| kanzure | just-vaguely-discernably-warm-wallet | 20:57 |
| kanzure | (signing should raise the temperature) | 20:58 |
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