2015-03-11.log

--- Log opened Wed Mar 11 00:00:18 2015
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brisque"I think NaS has basically been solved."00:13
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brisque"Long range you use checkpoints/weak subjectivity, short range you use security deposits - doesn't really seem like an issue any longer IMO.'00:16
brisquethat is to say, proof of stake is totally workable if you allow complete centralisation.00:16
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sipapetertodd: my condolences; i turned 30.5 yesterday00:41
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nsh30 is a great age to be01:21
brisqueit's not prime though. sipa is on the right track with almost-31.01:22
* nsh smiles01:22
fluffyponylol01:26
* fluffypony is 33 in July01:26
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instagibbsnever trust anyone over 3005:54
kinloright, that makes sense05:55
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instagibbsI'm under 30 so you can trust this statement kinlo05:58
kinloI'm pretty sure you're an idiot :)05:59
fluffyponykinlo: *ur06:03
kinlo?06:03
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sipainstagibbs: does 30.5 count as over 30?06:12
sipaare you using natural or real arithmetic?06:12
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instagibbssipa: ill bring that up at the local under over 30 meeting06:16
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sipaalso, what number base?06:21
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brisquesipa: hex. you're really 48 in decimal.06:31
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* jtimon got stuck trying to convert 0.5 hex years to months...07:57
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sipa3.75?07:59
adlai1825/16 days :P08:02
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petertoddinstagibbs: are you over or under 30?11:33
petertoddbrisque: meh, the centralization that long-term checkpoints introduce may prove to be less damaging than the centralization ASICs and mining pools introduce; we don't have the perfect PoW implementation that we wish we had11:35
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kanzurepetertodd: any opinions on the "lower the max block size" concept? :P ("so that we can see what happens when max block size is regularly hit in a somewhat more controlled fashion (without the entire network blowing up due to bandwidth/hdd constraints)")11:40
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petertoddkanzure: we already did that with the default soft-limit, and hearn and others campaigned heaviliy to raise it well before it got interesting11:41
kanzurei am not sure i know about the soft-limit, whether it was implemented, and what the results were11:41
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Luke-Jrkanzure: it was lifted before it was relevant11:42
petertoddLuke-Jr: ^11:42
petertodder, I mean11:42
petertoddkanzure: ^11:42
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Luke-Jrdropping it back would be helpful, but good luck getting the monster pools to do it11:42
kanzurehmph.11:43
petertoddpools are actually pretty receptive to dropping it, but the PR of doing so is bad on reddit :/11:43
kanzureseems like we should be pushing for experiments that seem to be less harmful in general11:43
kanzurethe network might get stuck in other interesting ways with lower block size limits though, like maybe mempools explode and barf over everything11:44
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petertoddkanzure: well, it's easy to do the math on "mempools barfing" - just a function how many $/gb used you want to spend11:45
kanzurei wonder if there was anything that could have been learned from that soft limit anyway. like "yes more devices can participate", but we already know that sort of.11:47
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petertoddkanzure: would have driven the adoption of non-chain tech faster11:48
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petertoddthen again, we already saw that with changetip, gambling sites, etc.11:48
justanotheruserreddit gets mad at pools for not having large blocks?11:49
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Adlaireddit gets mad at dissent11:50
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justanotheruserwould they prefer the pools fill the coinbase with image macros?11:50
petertoddjustanotheruser: of course they do - it directly leads to transactions being more expensive, and larger blocks have no immediate downsides for SPV users11:51
justanotheruserwhat benefit does more expensive transactions have for reddit?11:51
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petertoddjustanotheruser: er, that's what I said... :)11:52
justanotheruser?11:52
petertoddjustanotheruser: I mean, obviously there is no benefit to more expensive transactions for reddit because there's no benefit to smaller blocks for reddit - they're all SPV or hosted wallet users11:53
justanotheruseroh, I was looking at that backwards11:54
justanotheruserthat actually sheds some light on reddit pushing super hard to increase block size11:54
petertoddthat's why we keep saying it's a tragedy of the commons situation...11:55
kanzurei wonder if there's a way to construct proof or evidence of a certain amount of participation in blockchain consensus activities (not mining, though)11:55
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kanzureeh nevermind. i will formalize that later.11:56
petertoddkanzure: how much do you want to bet that the answer will be basically no? :P11:56
kanzureif nodes are not anonymous, they could sign consensus activity receipts or something, as a way of monitoring this?11:57
Adlaithe best i've seen (for mining) is to mine on p2pool, which 'proves' not only your hashpower, but how much you actually earned... using this for verifiable mining contracts is left as an exercise to the miners11:57
kanzure<insert lots of handwaving>11:57
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petertoddkanzure: note how everything you're proposing adds a whole lot of complexity that will get rejected by the reddit crowd anyway "It'll all magically work! Incentives and stuff!"11:58
kanzureoh, this is not for them, this is for my own benefit11:58
petertoddultimately I think the problem is we have people who aren't security engineers proposing to change a security-related system11:59
CoinCadenceAdlai: agreed.11:59
justanotheruserdoes bitnodes check whether you're relaying stuff or just whether you accept incomming connections?11:59
CoinCadenceJust wish we could solve P2Pools scalability problems11:59
justanotheruserif it's the former that's probably the closest you can get to  that11:59
kanzurethe receipts i proposed would maybe be a solution to problems regarding hosted wallets and gossip/consensus participation (again, not mining) for reviewing whether nodes are rejecting your activity or something12:00
gmaxwellCoinCadence: huh? I dunno what you're talking about wrt p2pool. It has basically perfect scalablity.12:00
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CoinCadenceSmaller miners get squezed out as the pool rate increses12:00
Adlaiit doesn't scale down too well once the p2pool share difficulty gets high relative to ... what CoinCadence said12:00
gmaxwellCoinCadence: Thats a misunderstanding.12:01
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CoinCadence5-6 big miners can drive difficulty very high, so smaller miners can not keep a share in the chain for when a block is found12:01
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gmaxwellIf you'd said "solve variance" I agree there are things to improve there. But p2pool pays fairly in the expectation, regardless of the hashrate or hashrate ratios.12:02
CoinCadenceand variance gets very high...12:02
petertoddsigh... solving varience is critical if we want people using p2pool - varience has a very real business cost12:02
CoinCadenceagreed,12:02
petertodd*variance12:02
gmaxwellCoinCadence: Thats incorrect. :( the additional hashpower _decreases_ variance, yes, share variance goes up, but block variance goes down, and the net increase is a _reduction_ in variance.12:02
CoinCadencenot for the average home miner...12:03
Adlaishare variance is all that matters when your expected number of shares per block reaches 012:03
gmaxwellBasicallly p2pool gives at best a constant fraction redunction in variance.12:03
* Adlai was in this situation for the last ~month of his miner's life12:03
petertoddp2pool will never have as low variance as just using GHash.IO, and there just aren't good reasons to use it for the people who would use GHash.IO - running a full node has a very real cost12:03
CoinCadencewe have plenty of 0 zee public nodes available, they are underutalized12:04
gmaxwellAdlai: That _NOT_ correct. holy crap, please go wrie a simulator and check it out.  It doesn't matter _where_ you variance comes from.   You are not better off "having a share" when there is no block found at all, that the pool sometimes finds blocks which don't include you is not a benefit to you vs not finding the blocks at all. :)12:04
CoinCadence*fee12:04
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petertoddCoinCadence: yeah, for pools of any kind, p2pool public nodes included, marketting matters tremendously12:06
Adlaiwouldn't p2pool be better off with another large miner's worth of small miners in a hierarchical sharechain?12:06
kanzurehmm those receipts would be useless because sybil, anyone can sign your messages and pretend to be a different node claiming they totes agree with your messages12:06
kanzures/agree/valiate12:06
kanzure*validate12:06
CoinCadenceI guess my point is it would be nice to coome up with a method of including more miners, with lower share vaiance without creating dust txs in the generation tx...12:06
Adlailet them eat dust, as long as they mine it12:07
gmaxwellAdlai: No, you can't have unbounded dust; existing hardware is often broken with large coinbase transactions,  and huge coinbases would risk increasing orphaning rate if not for all the busted hardware out there.12:08
Adlaigmaxwell: to 'share variance is all that matters', add 'for humans making irrational decisions based on expected utility'12:08
Adlaiwhich unfortunately seem to be the majority of participants in bitcoin12:08
gmaxwellThere are a lot of misunderstandings, some of these can be improved via better presentation and education. Twiddling the technology is almost never a good alternative to presentation or education.12:09
* Adlai needs to mine again, so he'll have skin in this game12:09
gmaxwellThat the varance reduction is bounded seems fundimental without invoking a trusted third party to pool funds.12:09
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CoinCadenceCould serial multi-sig replace a trusted 3rd party?12:10
CoinCadencetrustless is a big part of P2Pool ;)12:10
* gmaxwell has mined since roughly the end of 2010, save for ~three months between moving to CA and avalons showing up.12:10
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kanzurei wonder whether more-informative responses from validating nodes regarding validation errors would be useful for taking account of network status for node operators. hrm.12:11
gmaxwellCoinCadence: I disagree that trustlessness is actually a big part of p2pool in practice. A significant franction of p2pool users have used third party servers; which are completely trusted.12:11
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CoinCadencegmaxwell: true, but with the exception of NastPools new implementation they are still paid from coinbase...12:12
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CoinCadenceour public node is open to all, 0 fee, miner username = payout address12:13
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gmaxwellCoinCadence: that doesn't make it trustless, thats trustlessness theater.12:13
CoinCadencelol12:13
petertodd"trustlessness theater" <- nice12:13
gmaxwell(and plenty of other ones have done traditional aggregated pooling on top of it)12:13
CoinCadenceI guess to some degree it is, but we allways encourage to set up own node...12:13
petertoddthough I think "decentralization theater" has a better ring to it12:14
gmaxwell(To be fair, it's not _totally_ trustlessness theater, but considering the high share variance its darn near so)12:14
CoinCadencewould not be hard to skim shares, if your on someone eleses node you have to trust them, true12:14
gmaxwellit would be perfectly reasonable for people to instead of mining to their own address, mine to a multisig address that has agreed to pool and pay out for them, then they could get very low variance, same as any other pool.. with exchange of some risk.12:15
CoinCadencelike it, how do you determine what each miner on a given multi-sig has contributed?12:17
kanzuremining to a multisig address would not make that trustless ;)12:17
Adlaibut it's decentralizing the trustlessness!12:17
kanzureor rather, i mean login with a multisig address or whatever12:18
CoinCadencewould allow for groups of smaller miners to join, and yes would require trust within the group...12:18
justanotheruseryeah, pay-to-proportional-tx-output-set-hash12:18
gmaxwellCoinCadence: they send the multisigners evidence of their mining seperately.12:18
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gmaxwellImagine that the subpool is PPS for a moment. You mine to 3subpool  and then send any (say, diff 256) shares you find to the multisigners,  and then they credit you diff 256 worth of bitcoin, which you can withdraw at any time from them.12:19
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CoinCadencegmaxwell: I get it, the caviat is how the multisigners come to consensus12:21
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gmaxwellCoinCadence: thats up to them, I gave a PPS example because it simplified out that part.  Without it then everyone would submit shares to them and they come to consensus among themselves about which shares are to be paid.12:22
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gmaxwellConsensus with a fixed set of participants is a solved problem many times over.12:23
CoinCadenceI wonder if we could modify the share chain to include a miner ID along with the multisig address, and use the share chain to track valid shares submitted by each miner in the cluster, then you could set a time in the future to pay based on a threshold you are comfortable with?12:26
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gmaxwellthere isn't any modification required, you cna have arbtitary extra data, but you're missing the point there. If you only use the data in the p2pool sharechain you get the same variance as if you were paying the users directly.12:27
gmaxwell(unless you allow the sharechain data rate to become large, and potentially unreasonable.)12:28
CoinCadenceThat was another agle prposed by some of the community, make p2pool more efficient (maybe by re-writing in C++) and increase the number of shares in the chain, either by reducing expected time to share, or by extending the valid chain (or a combination of both)12:30
CoinCadence*angle proposed12:32
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gmaxwellCoinCadence: people already were bitching about p2pool's bandwidth usage back when it had a 10 second sharechain. I think it's unlikely people would find more than double the current level acceptable.12:37
CoinCadencegmaxwell: was not around then, but bandwith usage for the p2pool node is actually quite low right now...12:38
gmaxwellwell the share time was changed to 30 seconds which cut the bandwidth usage by a factor of 3.12:39
gmaxwellI think it was pretty low at 10s too, but obivously opinions differ. :)12:39
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CoinCadenceMy node right now:  24.9kB/s12:40
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CoinCadenceand I'm one of the mostpopular on the pool ;)12:40
CoinCadencehowever, some hardware def. had a problem with the high restart rate12:41
gmaxwellyour size doesn't change the bandwidth all that much, but yea, it was about 110kB/s previously.12:41
gmaxwelland people did complain about that. (consider a significant portion of the US only has DSL with 1-3 mbit/sec upstream)12:42
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dgenr8petertodd: any data gathered today on fee elasticity wrt a restrictive size limite will not be useful when it's needed .... in a dozen years minimum12:44
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CoinCadencegmaxwell: thx for your input, I'll continue to think on it...12:46
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gmaxwellLast call on any blockers for assigning a BIP number to this simple spec specifying lexagraphic ordering by default for p2sh multisignature: https://github.com/afk11/bips/blob/b924a75f66580ffa12b6f72b625ec1575d002691/bip-0090.mediawiki13:30
gmaxwell(i.e. are there any important applications or optimizations which are broken by using this particular ordering rather than some other one which need to be discussed; the proposal is really short and can be skimmed in just a minute)13:31
kanzurei looked over it and didn't see any problems, but the absence of mumble mumble does not prove mumble mumble13:32
gmaxwellyea sure. the best we can do is make sure a bunch of people have seen it; this isn't cosmic importance, so I'm not looking for proof that no mumble mumble blazerzot.13:32
gmaxwellThis scheme cannot work for more complex scripts that use checkmultisig multiple times and reuse some of the keys (because then positions matter); but I think thats compfortably out of scope.13:34
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afk11i'm here if anything needs answering.13:36
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mike420http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Antminer-S4-2nd-Gen-/271801501789?13:57
mike420good price13:57
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fluffyponywut14:02
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EclipseBRUH BRUH14:07
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bramcpetertodd, I'm planning on going to your talk at bitcoin-dev14:07
bramcSo, I've been working on this problem of combining multiple proofs of storage to make it so that a pool can't get a side advantage, and have come up with some fairly 'well duh' observations14:08
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bramcIf you look at just a single generation, if you're combining multiple proofs of storage there's a hard limit to how unlikely you can make the attacker to succeed, which is that they might win in every single one of the sub-proofs14:10
bramcSo if an attacker has, say, 1/10 of the total capacity, and three proofs of storage are combined, then they have at least a 1/1000 chance of succeeding14:10
bramcThere's another monkey wrench in the whole thing, which is that some fraction of the time when they succeed as a fork it isn't really a fork - it's the main chain. It's a bit hard to evaluate that one.14:11
bramcSo I'm messing with details to try to get as close to that hard limit as possible. And I'm thinking the number to combine, as they explain in the holy hand grenade skit, is three, because that makes it so that a pool of size 1/10 is hardly getting any benefit, and a pool of size 1/4 is going to have a measurable advantage even with four14:14
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kanzuregmaxwell: perhaps it would be better to specify the exact script that it is compatible for14:28
kanzurecc afk1114:28
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instagibbskanzure: +114:33
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brisquejustanotheruser: bitnodes does some basic checks and blacklists some Sybil nodes, but it's obviously not able to be perfect.14:53
brisquePetertodd: I'm not sure I understand. if you boil down Bitcoin to checkpoints than you might as well just call it an issued currency by whoever has the key.14:56
brisquepetertodd: in the case of ethereum, they've managed to make a GPU resistant mining algorithm that runs primarily on GPUs.14:57
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justanotheruserbrisque: Not sure what kanzure was going for, but the best you can do is something like that, or on a small scale try to connect to many nodes with 2 connections and see if they actually validate and relay14:58
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brisquewhy with two?15:05
brisquemore than one doesn't tell you anything more than relaying something unique to them and seeing if it ends up on another peer. also doesn't mean they're a useful node, either. there public software now which will make a Sybil node that passes this tea.15:06
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justanotheruserbrisque: making a block is expensive. You want to be able to tell whether the person you relayed to is relaying before the block makes its way back to you15:08
justanotheruserBut at this point I am completely speculating on what he meant and it may be completely different15:09
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kanzurewe really need a name for the thing that checkpoints were that other people don't mean when they say checkpoints15:23
justanotherusercentralized blockchain block ivalidation?15:23
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justanotheruser*invalidation15:24
gmaxwellIt's always easier to change the words you use than the words other people use.15:24
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justanotheruseror just get rid of them15:26
kanzurei'm okay with that, am still interested in name proposals either way :P15:26
kanzure(for the one that was implemented)15:26
justanotheruserSNCMC - static not-consensus-mechanism checkpoints15:27
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Adlaiconsensus snapshots?15:27
justanotheruserdarkcoiners have also redefined "coinjoin" so they can say "coinjoin is centralized, we don't use coinjoin"15:27
petertodd"trusted snapshots"15:27
petertoddjustanotheruser: darkcoiners can go die in a fire for that15:28
gmaxwelltrusted is not a great word because you can't tell if it means trustworthy or blindly-relied-on15:28
belcherhow the hell is coinjoin centralized?15:29
petertoddbrisque: thanks! we should talk there15:29
Adlaithrough bad implementations such as 'shared send'15:29
petertoddgmaxwell: trusted has this wonderful definition in many circles as "something that can fuck you over"...15:29
gmaxwellpetertodd: yes but in others as trust-worthy. :(15:30
petertoddbrisque: there's a lot of subtleties to different types of checkpoints in terms of how much auditing happens prior to the trusted checkpoint being accepted15:30
petertoddgmaxwell: "blind checkpoints"15:30
gmaxwellAdlai: yea, nevermind that basically everyone who has worked on or researched coinjoin implementations have told them that their service is busted. alas.15:30
petertoddgmaxwell: er, I mean "blind snapshots"15:30
gmaxwellpetertodd: I like that better.15:31
kanzurei forget whether we are trolling each other or which checkpoint definition we are talking about. lemme go look at my notes..15:31
petertoddkanzure: why not both?15:31
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kanzurewhat happened to the "anti-dos checkpoint" name suggestion?15:32
gmaxwellAt the moment, -- (my opinion is open to change)-- I'm really not fond of any of these schemes, I'd rather just have difficulty threshold style checks to prevent DOS attacks; "consensus advice" that warns you if you're in a weird state; and tools like invalidateblock being available to users.15:33
kanzurecheckpoint-for-anti-dos-reasons-only15:33
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justanotheruserbelcher: implementations of it are15:33
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kanzureinitial-sync-checking-stints... i don't know.15:34
justanotheruserjust like how file sharing is centralized and bittorrent isn't file sharing15:34
petertoddgmaxwell: I really, really, really dislike difficulty threshold, because that fundementally gives control of what is considered valid to anyone with sufficient hashing power - it's just a bad model with much worse implications than "yes, we claim this blockheader is from a valid chain"15:34
gmaxwelljustanotheruser: nothing about _coinjoin_ is centeralized.15:34
petertoddgmaxwell: for instance, consider someone running old software in that case where the diff. threshold represents something relatively easy to attack15:35
justanotherusergmaxwell: I know, hence the bittorrent example15:35
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justanotheruserI am just explaining why people mistake coinjoin as being something centralized15:35
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gmaxwellpetertodd: such a party ultimately already has control... they can cheaply reorgnize the tip as much as they like, double spend people, claw back subsidy and fees, etc...  In the case of a large reorg, if you just have all wallets go into a safe mode after it, people can just hit a few buttons and slay off any rewrite.15:36
gmaxwellpetertodd: and you've avoided granting tacit approval to things like these centeralized blocksigning schemes or made there be some centerally administred list of trusted values people have to update all the time.15:36
petertoddgmaxwell: that's the thing, no they don't. again, remember my example of someone running some old software where the threshold is out of date15:36
petertoddgmaxwell: after all, I'm only talking about the case where software ships with some blockhashes to skip validation - if the longest chain doesn't appear to include those hashes, redo validation15:37
petertoddgmaxwell: I'm *not* talking about "checkpoints" as we know them15:37
gmaxwelloh you talking about skipping some validation along a single particular path but not changing the consensus.15:38
gmaxwell"blind shortcuts"15:38
gmaxwella "blindly trusted shortcut"15:38
petertoddyup15:38
petertodddiff. thresholds for anti-dos are perfectly fine15:39
gmaxwellit somewhat seems sad to have all this discussion to save what is only a couple CPU hours after all optimizations are in place.15:40
kanzure"yes, i only have discussions that can save at least 200 million hours of cpu time globally, anything else is boring" words to live by15:41
kanzure(although something i happen to agree with in principle)15:41
gmaxwellThe irony is that the initial shortcutting was put in bitcoin core because of an outright bug. We should have taken it back out when the real bug was fixed.  (accidentally we were using the SecureAllocator for basically everything, so every allocation was mlocking and on free munlocking and bzeroing... which as a MASSIVE slowdown for verification; esp on operteron where TLB flushes were super exp15:41
gmaxwellensive)15:42
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gmaxwell(the nature of the bug made it not show up in profiles... as much of the time was in the kernel)15:43
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petertoddwell, that's one of the problems with having an architecture and devel philosophy where small changes like that matter...15:44
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bramcgmaxwell, Is there a reason to use SecureAllocator in a full node? Obviously it makes sense in a wallet, but I don't see what's secret in a node.16:14
sipabramc: only for wallet stuff16:15
bramcI would argue that wallets should be completely separate pieces of software, for basically that reason16:15
bramcIf you want a wallet + full node you can run a wallet and a full node.16:16
brisqueAdlai: Shared Coin doesn't in a single way resemble coinjoin.16:16
brisquehere's a pig.16:16
* brisque holds up a porcupine 16:16
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brisque(they'll never notice because they're not experts in pigs)16:17
gmaxwellbramc: its only wallet code, just some minor mistake in the codebase caused it to get used where it shouldn't be.16:18
gmaxwell"and the evidence is so very clear and present that anyone justifying software design choices by claiming that "the network is reliable" without irony should probably not be trusted to build any computing systems at all" http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=274538516:19
bramcSound travels about a foot per millisecond, FYI16:20
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* brisque slaps bramc with a metric ruler 16:20
bramcSo with an old-school radio setup if you were sitting in the bleachers and listening on the radio you would hear the batter make contact with the ball on the radio at the same time as you saw it but would hear it through the direct air at a noticeable delay16:21
sipabramc: nobofy disagrees that the wallet code shouldn't be separate :)16:22
sipajust hasn't been done yet16:22
brisquesipa: least that isn't a comment about we have to remove the marketplace *and* the wallet from bitcoin core :)16:23
bramcWhat do you mean by the marketplace?16:23
sipahehehe16:23
brisquevery very very early bitcoin core had a marketplace built into it, or the framework of one anyway.16:23
sipabitcoin core 0.1.5 had some unfinished marketplace built in16:23
sipano actual logic, but part of the network protcol andngui16:24
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hearnit was intended to be a market where blocks mined == reputation16:26
sipareally?16:26
sipai never knew that16:26
brisquehttps://0bin.zertrin.org/paste/2e5db5f7de0f59c62c154b117935a0578045ad58#swlDE30AnRx9SpXx/yj1XtoceqaOxMC/59xUMjYerFw=16:26
brisque"atoms"16:27
bramcBecause we all know what reputable upstanding people professional miners are16:27
hearnremember satoshi imagined that most users would mine on their home cpus16:28
brisquekeep in mind the network was fairly different to how it is now. you would connect to someone's IP address directly and exchange pubic keys in network messages.16:28
hearnit probably made sense at the time16:28
sipayeah16:29
bramcThere are lots of things which made sense to try at the time which are clearly bad ideas now.16:29
hearnnow people are trying to bring it back as openbazaar, except about a million times more complicated16:29
hearnwell satoshi said he realised it was a bad idea and switched to doing the rpc api16:29
hearni.e. he realised the community was growing and his time was better spent empowering other devs16:30
sipai see16:30
sipainteresting16:30
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bramcMiners can throw whatever info they want into blocks16:31
brisquehearn: started today it would be released as BazaarCoin, have an IPO, and be built into a coloured ethereum sidechain.16:31
hearnyeah. seems a shame.16:32
hearnthere's a certain elegance to the "just power through it in win32 C++" approach that satoshi used :)16:32
sipait would also run on the cloud16:32
sipamssed opportunity there16:32
jgarzikhearn, rofl16:33
bramcC++ is a strange choice for the bitcoin codebase16:33
sipai woukd not use anything else if i started today :)16:33
jgarzikI thought so at first -- but in hindsight it's better than the other choices16:33
hearnsipa: "it's decentralised!! all you have to do is install this precise build of ubuntu node mongodb bitcoind go + twelve other libraries and then register for an AWS account!"16:33
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sipai woukd like C more, because of easier control over resources16:34
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sipabut needing to deal with manual memory management is such a pain it's not worth it imho16:34
bramcJava and Python are both much less worrisome from a security standpoint, and of course the actual mining should be in C extensions anyway.16:34
sipaconsensus code i would write in C16:34
hearnmost code doesn't require super explicit control over memory16:34
jgarziksmart C++ engineers out several problematic patterns programmers keep resurrecting.  I tend to think C++ is superior to C even for consensus -- and this is coming from a C fan who wrote a C compiler & kernel C code for decades...16:35
jgarzikreluctant conclusion16:35
hearnheh. i'd do it all in java or kotlin :) except for the core ecdsa. that, it seems, pretty much has to be in C or assembly16:35
bramcDoes the SecureAllocator using a kernel memory call for each allocation or does it do one big pool via a secure call and use that until it needs another one?16:35
sipaif i could just have structs with constructors and destructors in C, i would use it16:35
sipabramc: the most naive way possible16:35
gmaxwellbramc: it's not as strange as you might guess.16:35
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hearnsipa: well you can write C++ that way16:36
hearnsipa: but do you really want to write your own linked lists ...16:36
bramcI'm told that C++11 is much less problematic than the older versions16:36
sipahearn: i have written linked list implememtatiins in C several times :)16:36
sipahearn: and hash tables16:36
sipaand ni, i don't want to do that again16:36
hearnexactly :)16:37
gmaxwelljgarzik: in general consensu code doesn't do any of the things that are espeically footgunny there, and C++ also introduces a lot of oppturnity for shocking behavior that even surprises the foremost C++ experts that you can find; which is a pretty big liability when writing anything whos behavior must be absolutely and totally unambigious.16:37
sipabut to the extent possible, i think consensus code should have as little allocations at runtime at all16:37
bramcgmaxwell, How is it not so strange? What are th ebenefits?16:37
hearnsipa: why? it's not hard real time.16:37
sipahearn: being able to reason about memory usage16:38
sipawhich does not require no-allocations at all16:38
sipabut minimizing them simplifies things16:38
sipaand c++ really makes it easy to glace over really inefficient things16:38
sipabut maybe that's just a sign of a bad programmer :)16:38
gmaxwellbramc: well consider the original version of bitcoin it was only about 10kloc with a GUI. We have never had a memory safty bug hit us in production-- whole classes of errors that are easy to have in C are much less likely with relatively modern C++.  It's not good, however, at avoiding hidden behavior...16:39
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brisquegmaxwell: all the more hell for reimplementations I suppose.16:40
hearni think we got incredibly lucky with satoshi's code, especially given the total absence of any modern testing methodology16:40
gmaxwellbramc: e.g. the only memory leaky ish bugs we've had IIRC in bitcoin core were just container datastructures which had no upper bound, no actual memory leaks in the sense that you get them in C that I can recall.16:40
gmaxwellhearn: I think you're incorrect about testing methodology, it just wasn't made available to you.16:40
jgarzikgmaxwell, and a lot fewer memory corruption type bugs/errors on average16:40
hearnthat's what i mean by reasonable - satoshi tested by writing little standalone apps then throwing them away16:41
hearnsorry s/reasonable/modern/16:41
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jgarziksipa, ideally consensus code should do zero allocations...  embedded situations want you to pass in things like heap & stack16:41
bramcMy coworkers tell me that in C++ 11 you mostly use smart (i.e. ref counted) pointers and unique pointers, so you basically don't do any memory management. Python winds up being basically the same thing16:41
hearneverything about bitcoin 0.1 screamed "this is going to be riddled with exploitable bugs" and it wasn't16:41
hearnbramc: refcounting *is* memory management, but yes it can avoid issues like double frees when done properly and consistently so it's better than fully manual if you can take the code size/perf hit.16:42
hearn(bitcoin doesn't do refcounting)16:42
bramcA lot of the exploitability of a piece of software has to do with how good the developers are. Some people are just plain sloppy16:43
bramcBut I prefer to do development in Python for purely development time reasons.16:43
gmaxwellThere is very little of satoshi's code left in Bitcoin core. 0.10 replaced much of what had been remaining.16:43
bramchearn technically Python is garbage collected as well but it turns out in practice most of the work is done by ref counting. I was simplifying.16:44
hearnright16:44
gmaxwellin bitcoin there are very few long lived objects, and basically none without simple linear ownership, memory management isn't generally a huge issue.16:45
sipabramc: if you wrote consensus code in python, i'm sure you'd get forks when new python versions were introduced :)16:45
sipajgarzik: yup, libsecp256k1 only does allocations at init time16:46
bramcsipa, No Python is extremely stable in terms of basic syntax.16:46
sipabramc: well, let me know if you :)16:46
hearngmaxwell: my fear is that as the years go by and multi-threading gets more common ownership will get more complex. we already have locking issues with the RPC threads vs main threads, etc. threading is a fertile source of double free and ownership type bugs.16:47
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bramcWhat does the bitcoin codebase use for strings? I'm told null terminated strings have mostly gone the way of the dodo.16:47
hearnbut yes it's much less of an issue than say, webkit16:47
gmaxwellbramc: uh. I've had simple thing like adding an import in python change the behavior of unrelated code.. because the import changed things about the interperter enviroment.16:47
bramcgmaxwell, I'd be curious for details on that one. I've never had anything like that happen to me. I also don't use any crazy tricks in Python.16:48
bramc(Well, there's utah data center, but that's just for testing purposes)16:48
bramcIf you make a codebase monothreaded and use a consistent and reasonably safe string class that fixes most of your security problems regardless of which language you use.16:50
hearnbramc: std::string16:50
hearnbramc: yeah null terminated strings are a C thing only these days16:50
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brisquehearn: and PHP :P16:51
bramcI'm old enough to have gotten serious criticism as a know it all kid for shitting on null terminated string as being obviously idiotic when I first started out.16:51
gmaxwellbramc: god knows what strings are being used for at all. Every time someone has added some string thing to the Bitcoin system (e.g. not in some UI facing role) they've managed to add some kind of vulnerability or another, strings have no real place in this system.16:51
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jgarzikmost pragmatic implementations store string length & null terminate for safety (+ speed of rendering a C-string upon request)16:55
sipawhich is what std::string does actually16:55
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bramcpython3's biggest difference with python2 is the separation of string into separate binary and unicode string data types. It seems utterly barbaric for them to be crammed into the same structure once you're used to that.16:56
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bramcI'd like to JCF-terminate my length-delimited strings for testing purposes :-P16:57
bramcgmaxwell, Well it implicitly must use binary strings all over the place, at least when it's doing network traffic16:58
hearnwe tend to just call those byte arrays16:58
hearnthough using std::string to hold arbitrary binary data is not uncommon in many c++ code bases16:58
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justanotheruserhearn: what should be used? a vector of bytes?16:59
hearnstd::string is a vector of bytes17:00
justanotheruseryes, but its more explicit that way17:00
hearnsure17:00
hearni am not a big fan of using std::string to hold arbitrary binary data. it's pretty common in the google c++ codebase though17:00
hearnsipa: i think std::string is not null terminated unless you call c_str()17:01
bramcIn Python it started that strings were just binary strings, then encoding/decoding support was added with people mostly using uft8 because by that time it had become clear that utf16 was a blight upon humanity17:01
hearnthe java guys are working on an interesting way of handling strings.17:01
hearnthey want to detect whether a string is ascii or unicode at runtime and then "compress" utf-16 strings down to a variant of ascii on the fly17:01
bramcNow there's bytes for mutable ones and a separate unicode string type in python317:01
bramcI think Python does something like that too, although that's got an SEP field around it.17:03
bramcI'm mad at the Java people for making the string.encode() method not require an encoding and defaulting to the local system one.17:03
bramcI once had a bunch of overseas developers who thought that Java just magically solved encoding problems for them and that's why it didn't need the parameter17:04
bramcOf course it turned out that their machines had the locale set to latin-117:04
hearnString.getBytes() without an encoding parameter is deprecated17:05
hearnso they weren't paying attention, apparently17:05
hearnor this was a looooong time ago17:05
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gmaxwellhearn: "though using std::string to hold arbitrary binary data is not uncommon in many c++ code bases"  yea, well, I hear there are also people who huff glue.17:13
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bramchearn, 2006. Some of us are old :-P17:14
Luke-Jrlol17:15
bramcDoes C++ do array bounds checking?17:15
hearnah ok, my mistake, it's not deprecated actually. it just states that the behaviour is unspecified :)17:15
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hearnah i see. it's the ranged version that's deprecated17:15
bramc"Don't have to worry about the encoding problem any more, ops fixed it!"17:15
hearngmaxwell: well, BigTable does that, and it's one of the best engineered systems i've seen.17:15
hearnthough possibly only glue huffers would think "hey let's put the entire web into a database" :)17:16
hearnbramc: it bounds checks std::vector if you use the .at() method which nobody does. the [] operator overload doesn't bounds check17:16
phantomcircuit<hearn> bramc: yeah null terminated strings are a C thing only these days17:16
phantomcircuiteven then17:16
phantomcircuitew17:16
phantomcircuit<brisque> hearn: and PHP :P17:17
bramcFor anyone missing the joke, a local latin-1 encoding will cause encode() and decode() to return the string passed into them17:17
phantomcircuitphp is actually both null terminated and not null terminated which leads to an entirely hilarious class of exploits17:17
* hearn tries hard to forget that PHP exists17:17
hearnphantomcircuit: lol how does that work?17:17
hearnmy father writes code in PHP <sadness>17:17
phantomcircuithearn, certain functions treat strings as null terminated and others use their length property17:17
hearnhaha. yes that sounds about right.17:18
bramcThe upshot of all of this for bitcoin is that unicode shouldn't be allowed anywhere near bitcoind17:18
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gmaxwellbramc: huh?17:18
phantomcircuithearn, iirc strlen is just a direct call to libc strlen17:18
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phantomcircuitso you get fun code where only the part before the nulls are sanitized and there's escape codes afterwards17:18
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bramcgmaxwell, bitcoin handles binary strings fine as byte arrays, the dangerous thing would be to add unicode strings in somewhere17:19
brisquephantomcircuit: yeah, you can do lots of trickery with that. there's a whole class of php related exploits where you can inject null bytes and bypass security limitations.17:19
bramcJCF terminated, it's the future.17:19
phantomcircuitbramc, except that i dont think bitcoin uses strings anywhere except for the remote client version identifier17:20
sipaand reject messages17:20
phantomcircuithmm17:20
sipawhich have already almost caused a vulnerability17:20
hearnand message type codes17:20
bramcphantomcircuit, I'm not arguing against that17:20
phantomcircuitright17:20
hearnand subVer fields17:20
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bramcalthough remote client version identifies should probably be utf-8 and that's the end of it.17:21
sipahearn: those are constant size (message commamds)17:21
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hearnright17:21
sipaalerts have several strings17:21
gmaxwellbramc: I think you've spent too much time exposed to languages which needlessly conflate strings with everything. The bitcoin protocol isn't text, its a simple binary protocol, with many fixed length and length encoded fields. There is nearly no text anywhere in it. (nearly: exceptions being things like that client version string thing; which we had _two_ vunlerabilties related to)17:21
phantomcircuithearn, subVer is what i was talking about17:21
brisquephantomcircuit: subversion, and reject messages I think.17:21
gmaxwell(and which I still think should never have been added, now that _every_ downside I predicted has come true. :) )17:22
phantomcircuitbrisque, yeah that seems to be everything17:22
phantomcircuitgmaxwell, every every or just 99% every17:22
hearngmaxwell: you don't see the upsides17:23
gmaxwellWell, I'd have to dig, I predicted security bugs, that it would not be set to accurate values, and that software would bogusly test against it. All of which have been true. I might have predicted doom of other forms.17:23
bramcconstant size implies that they're binary. If they're unicode with constant binary size then they just happen to be putting in conveniently displayable data but they're still binary17:23
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gmaxwellThere has been some doom I haven't predicted, it actually makes for some mild deanonymization attacks that I didn't quite expect. (people leave the data in logs, because it doesn't seem identifying, and you can watermark version strings when you connect)17:24
bramcgmaxwell, The bittorrent protocol works that way too. It's fairly clear that satoshi had reasonable familiarity with at least the wire specification of bittorrent17:24
bramcstarting with how bitcoin was intended to be defined based on a protocol rather than 'whatever this codebase does' (modulo a few bugs which snuck in of course)17:24
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bramcThings like version strings should be binary strings, and when people ask about unicode the answer is 'use utf-8 dumbass'17:26
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gmaxwellhearn: upsides are limited by the downsides, a lot of hosts lie about their subver.17:26
hearni was referring to reject messages. nonetheless, subVer is still useful.17:26
gmaxwellbramc: sure. well thats been the C/Unix land answer to unicode anything pretty much. though its not quite a perfect answer. (e.g. stuff utf-8 into a array of a maximum number of bytes in size...)17:27
bramcIn its heart of hearts, is a filename a binary string displayed as unicode or a unicode string encoded as binary?17:27
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bramcgmaxwell, Microsoft totally got fucked by utf-16. They were earnestly trying to do the right thing and follow the 'standard'.17:28
phantomcircuitbramc, the first one which can be super annoying17:28
phantomcircuit(it's valid on most filesystems to save a file with a name that isn't valid utf-8)17:29
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bramcphantomcircuit, If only file system apis provided quoting functions to get the local way of encoding an arbitrary fucking filename17:29
brisquehearn: for bitcoin in particular this sort of thing has a higher impact than anywhere else. did anyone else think that you could use the subversion string as a deanonymization side channel? it's really in the clients best interest just to avoid even "harmless" things as much as possible.17:29
bramcAnd then there are the ... interesting behaviors when you try to make a file whose name is the null character, or zero length, or front slash...17:30
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phantomcircuitbramc, sure but rogue programs can still produce filenames which cannot be deleted by "rm" because rm considers the filename invalid17:30
phantomcircuitthat's always fun17:30
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hearnclients are almost always connecting with their real IP address today over unencrypted connections. subVer fields are really not high up the list of things to worry about. meanwhile there is an actual need for features to aid development, monitoring and administration.17:31
phantomcircuitbrisque, client authors want people to know that people are using their client17:31
gmaxwellhearn: I've found rejects useful at times, though the tradeoff is still somewhat unclear to me: For the moderate additional help in trouble shooting we also gained three vulnerabilties (sanitization, memory exhaustion (even though the code tried to limit the size initially it did so too late), and a potential for infinite loops because it could reject reply to a reject message17:31
phantomcircuit(and it's not like identifying clients based on their protocol handling is difficult)17:31
bramcphantomcircuit, I'm continually terrified of trying to store files with filenames suggested by an untrusted source. For example having a file name '~/.profile' in a multifile torrent17:31
brisquephantomcircuit: subvers as an advertising method seems a little far fetched to me17:31
gmaxwellhearn: subver is wrong more often than it's right now if you exclude bitcoin core and bitcoinj _lots_ of things claim to be bitcoin core which are not. So I think that basically makes it useless for monitoring.17:32
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bramcSorry for the dumb question, but what are rejects and subver?17:32
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phantomcircuitbrisque, it's definitely going on i see version numbers with urls for exchanges sometimes17:32
gmaxwellbramc: subver is a text string that gives the remote peers software version (or whatever else it wasnts to send instead)17:32
hearni'd like to see a systematic framework for catching memory usage issues.17:32
phantomcircuit(it's actually just the one but im not going to advertise for them here...)17:32
hearnaccounting/disconnecting nodes that used up more than their fair share, etc.17:33
gmaxwellbramc: reject is a response that can be sent to messages to say you rejected them.17:33
phantomcircuithearn, identify all the allocation events and walk the stack backwards17:33
gmaxwell(and maybe why)17:33
bramcAh, I see17:33
hearnbear in mind that there might be tens of thousands of developers who can develop faster over the next 5 years because of (say) reject, so the benefits pile up over time17:33
hearnbugs are nasty but they get fixed and then the benefits accumulate.17:33
bramcSo rejects are a way for developers to tell other developers that their shit is busted?17:34
hearnphantomcircuit: you don't really want to do it that way. you can just use a custom allocator that tracks and accounts memory usage whilst a peer is "in scope". the problem is what to do if a peer goes over its budget17:34
gmaxwellhearn: The time it save in diagnostics mostly translates into "I don't have to test against my own node to see why it rejects things"17:34
hearnbramc: yeah it's an error message scheme for the protocol basically. like HTTP error codes.17:34
brisquebramc: not even that, you can reject for things like an input already being spent.17:35
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phantomcircuithearn, i suspect that would end up being more risky than it sounds since you'd have to track which peer triggered the allocation and that information isn't currently available17:36
brisquehearn: point was that you can use a subversion side channel to deanonymise users. ask them to supply a log, they don't scrub the subversion, and you now know what their real IP address is.17:36
hearngmaxwell: sometimes the production network doesn't match your local setup, though. i mean that argument applies to any network protocol that has an open source server available. we could just make every network protocol just return ERROR if something goes wrong, MS/DOS style.17:36
bramcbrisque, I would argue that a 'that input is already spent' message has enough semantic meaning that it should be its own message type instead of relying on the 'human readable' reject message17:36
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hearnphantomcircuit: most processing for a peer happens whilst a message is on stack, so you can just put a CPeer reference into a TLS slot, for example (and make sure to propagate it across threads when that happens for eg. signature checking)17:36
bramcYou could even make it implicit by making the 'error' response be to send the transaction which you yourself had accepted17:37
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gmaxwellhearn: it's all much simpler to just avoid the case where a peer can cause you to use memory beyond some trivial amount you can always handle.17:37
brisquebramc: it has both, a machine readable reject reason and a string.17:38
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hearni'd rather have automatic solutions as much as possible. eg it'd be simpler to use C and just avoid writing bugs, but in practice, the automatic facilities C++ provides do help (and going up one level, automatic gc helps etc)17:39
hearnthe code might be being evolved 15 years from now by people we have never met17:39
brisquehearn: like an antimony pill?17:39
hearnfrom time to time people will make mistakes or network conditions will change, assumptions will be invalidated, etc. better put in place crash mats now.17:40
hearnantimony pill?17:40
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brisquesorry that was a horrible joke.17:40
phantomcircuithearn, er there's stuff passed between threads which you'd have to handle correctly17:40
hearnphantomcircuit: yes i said that. you have to propagate the peer across thread boundaries.17:40
phantomcircuitit's probably easier than im thinking but harder than you're thinking17:40
* hearn has experience of building systems that work this way17:41
phantomcircuitand either way just identifying all the potential ridiculous allocation issues and limiting their size is probably easier and saner17:41
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gmaxwellSometimes things sold as crash mats turn out to be spike covered death traps in production. e.g. several different attempts at BGP congestion handling resulted in large scale internet outages, because they could turn small single device failures into big convergence faults. Making something automatic at the expense of making it harder or impossible to analyize may not be a win. ... though some ki17:41
hearni hope at some point to get time to prototype this sort of framework17:41
gmaxwellnds of automatic are safer than others.17:42
bramcAs a general rule what makes the codebase for something like bitcoin maintainable is having a coherent protocol specification. First you design the protocol, then you make the codebase conform to it. If it's coherent you can always scrap the current codebase and reimplement17:42
brisquehearn: (in the 19th centuary people would make a pill out of antimony (a poisonous metal) and use it for a sort of laxative effect, birth control or hangover cure. being a metal you could reuse it infinite times, and it would be passed down through families. I was likening the bitcoin codebase to this.)17:42
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bramcYou should see the garbage generated by people who don't understand that point and are all proud of how well they understand C++ because of all the template metaprogramming and multithreading they've thrown in.17:43
phantomcircuitbramc, except like you cant with bitcoin....17:43
gmaxwellbramc: the 'protocol' is unimportant, can be replaced at any time.. and in fact the bitcoin system is run over several different protocols now. :)17:43
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hearnbrisque: huh, i didn't know that. interesting.17:43
hearnbrisque: sounds about as wise as sweetening wine with lead :)17:44
bramcThere's always a tension between the de facto protocol and the in principle protocol, but in the case of bitcoin the de facto one is largely subservient17:44
bramcExcept for time warp attacks :-P17:44
gmaxwellBitcoin starts with an authenticated data structure; thats the 'protocol' that counts (transactions and blocks); though it's not what most people are thinking about when they say protocol.17:44
bramcgmaxwell, It peels apart in layers. There's the blockchain format, which is most fundamental, then there's the bitcoin protocol and spv17:45
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brisquehearn: (similar concept really. you would make a cup out of antimony, and if you'd been heavily drinking you would fill the cup with water before you went to bed. it would leech into the water overnight, and act as a hangover cure in the morning)17:46
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brisquebramc: SPV isn't really something that needs to be part of the network protocol.17:46
gmaxwellbramc: right but there are alternative protocols; e.g. bluematt's relay network protocol, or the electrum stratum stuff that replace the p2p protocol with varrying levels of completeness.17:46
bramcgmaxwell, right and the further they get away from the block chain the easier they are to change17:47
brisquebramc: I have a sort of half-assed build of a bitcoin transport which uses tumblr.com as the communication medium.17:47
gmaxwellbrisque: ohhhh "Bitcoin tumbler"17:48
gmaxwell(for some reason people referring to bitcoin tx graph obfscuation things as 'bitcoin tumbler'; I have no clue where it came from, and no clue why it irritates me.)17:49
phantomcircuitbrisque, except for the part where it was poisonous17:49
hearni guess it conjures images of lottery machines17:49
hearnat least it does for me17:50
bramcIt all has to do with difficulty of change. If engineered correctly it should be easy to rework the actual codebase, because it has a coherent behavioral specification which is dependent on implementation details17:50
bramcWeb browsers are awful things to work on for this reason17:50
brisquephantomcircuit: to "cure" syphilis they fed mercury to goats and drank the milk. I don't think a lot of these cures are particularly well thought through or researched.17:50
phantomcircuitheh17:51
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bramcAccording to the interwebs the human body can handle antimony fairly well, probably because it's much more widely occuring in our natural environment than lead.17:52
phantomcircuitbramc, long term chronic exposure is poorly studied and probably has similar health risks as other heavy metals17:54
phantomcircuitintentionally consuming large amounts via an "antimony cup" seems ill conceived17:54
phantomcircuitand back on topic17:54
bramcAlso while mercury poisoning sucks in the days before antibiotics risking it beat reliably dying of syphilis17:54
phantomcircuitwhy does the bloomfilter stuff even have a "hash" parameter?17:55
phantomcircuit(ie iteration count)17:55
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phantomcircuitor i guess it's not iterations but actually different hash functions?17:55
brisqueit's different hash functions17:56
brisqueone hash function with a "tweak" causing different outputs17:56
gmaxwellbasically it lets you change your collission set.17:56
hearnit's a part of the Bloom algorithm, check wikipedia17:56
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Adlaigmaxwell: 'coin tumbler' dates back to when taint had mass :)17:59
Adlaihttp://rocktumbler.com/blog/coins-in-a-rock-tumbler/18:00
brisqueAdlai: hm, I thought it was a reference to laundry18:00
brisquecould be dual-origin I suppose.18:00
phantomcircuitgmaxwell, is it really necessary?18:01
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phantomcircuitguess i should take a bit to read about bloom filters some more...18:08
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phantomcircuitoh i see18:20
phantomcircuiteach hash function produces a single index18:20
phantomcircuitthat doesn't exactly seem optimal18:20
phantomcircuitMurmurHash3 produces 32 bits of output per call18:22
phantomcircuitwhy not simply use the first k bits of output as indexes?18:22
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mike420http://www.ebay.com/itm/271801501789?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l264918:43
mike420good price?18:43
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bramcSo the IBLT proposed by Gavin only uses xor, no fancy ECC?19:28
phantomcircuitbramc, any opinion on bloom filter hash function usage?19:30
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bramcphantomcircuit, I'm going off this, written by rusty: http://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/11/05/Playing-with-invertible-bloom-lookup-tables-and-bitcoin-transactions.html19:30
phantomcircuityeah i just meant normal bloom filters19:30
bramcWhich hash unction you use shouldn't really matter. I'd go with siphash keyed off the block id, because I'm paranoid like that19:30
bramcAnd because, uh, there's no downside in terms of performance19:31
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bramcphantomcircuit, Not really sure what your question is19:33
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bramcI don't have much to add to rusty's analysis. If I were to analyze it seriously I'd just re-run the tests he's done, which seems pointless19:37
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bramcAlso I agree that it doesn't make sense to compress 1M of data down to 1M.19:38
bramcAnd I don't know how very large transactions get broken up - are they split into pieces or something?19:38
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justanotheruserAny reason not to just use FNV for the bloom filter?19:45
bramcjustanotheruser, Using siphash would keep anybody from doing a dos where they intentionally make a bunch of transactions hit the same place and render the summary useless19:47
justanotheruserthat seems like a miners problem19:47
justanotheruserand makes malleability a feature!19:47
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phantomcircuitbramc, the standard algorithm is to set a bit in a bitfield once for each hash call19:48
bramcIn all seriousness, using siphash keyed off the block id is exactly the kind of thing siphash is meant for.19:49
phantomcircuitbut the hash function returns 32 bits19:49
phantomcircuitso you should be able to get more than 1 bit in the bitfield per hash function call19:49
bramcphantomcircuit, You expand out the hash value in some random way to get all the locations19:49
phantomcircuiti dont think it gets you a whole lot of advantage19:49
phantomcircuitbut it's potentially something19:49
phantomcircuitbramc, no the standard implementation is that you call the hash function again with a new tweak value to get the next bit19:50
phantomcircuitso for k=10 you call H 10 times19:50
bramcphantomcircuit, six, dozen/219:50
justanotheruserI suppose miners wouldn't even have to optomize the transactions for non-collision, but if they did the fee would have to correlate with the increased risk or reorg from including their collision tx'19:50
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phantomcircuitbramc, wat19:50
bramcjustanotheruser, I have no idea if you're joking19:51
justanotheruserbramc: why, am I wrong?19:51
phantomcircuitbramc, is siphash considered secure?19:51
phantomcircuiti didn't think it was19:51
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bramcphantomcircuit, there's key data and you pick positions in the filter based off it. How you mash up that key data to determine the positions doesn't matter19:52
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phantomcircuitbramc, right19:52
bramcphantomcircuit, siphash is considered secure against an attacker intentionally making hash collisions when they don't know the key for the hash19:52
phantomcircuitbut the standard (and the current bitcoin) implementation is 1 bit is set per hash function call19:53
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bramcphantomcircuit, If you run numbers on bloom filters it turns out that you get the maximum storage when roughly half the bits in the filter are set19:53
phantomcircuitbut i guess it's not worth it actually to change that19:53
phantomcircuitbramc, the attacker knows the key though19:54
phantomcircuitsince the key has to be deterministic19:54
bramcphantomcircuit, You could speed it up a little bit by not throwing out any of the bits from hash calls19:54
bramcphantomcircuit, If you use the block id as the key then the attacker doesn't know it when they're trying to do their attack19:54
phantomcircuitbramc, yeah but i just realized that complicates things enough that it's not worth it19:55
phantomcircuitbramc, iirc the idea was to include a hash of the bloom filter in the block19:55
phantomcircuitbut if you're not doing that then yeah19:55
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bramcphantomcircuit, I don't see the point of putting the bloom filter hash in the block19:57
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phantomcircuitbramc, soft forking rule change19:57
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bramcYou could also hash together everything but the bloom filter id for the bloom filter's key19:57
phantomcircuitpresumably using something like the merkle tree root would make the raw time to bruteforce the tweak value high enough as to be unreasonable by itself19:58
phantomcircuitbut that's just a gut feeling19:58
phantomcircuitbramc, cant include the nonce value in the block header of course19:58
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bramcmerkle tree root should be plenty19:58
phantomcircuiti suspect keying off just the merkle tree root would be sufficient19:58
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phantomcircuitbramc, maybe20:05
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bramcphantomcircuit, Since the attacker's vector is by guessing the key and introducing transactions which work with it, using the transaction root should kill any such attacks because each new transactions gets secure hashed into it20:12
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bramcrusty, If you're here I have some questions about the IBLT format, starting with why use a whole 32 bits for count? Shouldn't the last 8 bits of it be sufficient?20:13
rustybramc: am here.... was a while since I played with it.  Let me dig out my code for a refresh.20:14
trompbramc: you want to avoid count overflowing20:15
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bramctromp, I don't understand, aren't you mostly looking for exact matches?20:16
phantomcircuitbramc, bruteforcing a merkle tree root which causes a siphash collision might not be as expensive as it sounds20:16
brisqueyou're going to have to be doing that for every 2^32 nonces though20:16
bramcphantomcircuit, I think the key to siphash is kinda big20:17
brisqueprobably a little more with nrolltime.20:17
rustybramc: I used 6 bytes for id, 2 for index.20:17
trompyou want to use count==1 as a single item. 257 items xored together could cause havoc when interpreted as one20:17
bramcrusty, and there's 32 bits for 'count'20:17
rustybramc: ah, that doesn't really matter.  The iblt is small.20:18
rustybramc: assuming it gets wire encoded down to something more minimal.20:18
bramctromp the vast majority of the time you're looking for exact match. You start looking for additions/deletions by finding one which is off by 120:18
brisquecan the iblt actually be processed by a node more quickly than a direct block push?20:19
trompbut what if they're really off by 257?20:19
phantomcircuitbrisque, hmm you're right that could get expensive20:19
bramctromp I'm guessing the chances of accidentally hitting something really off by 257 is vanishingly small20:19
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rustytromp: if you're missing 257 in one bucket you have other problems; you're not going to be able to recover :)20:20
phantomcircuitbrisque, oh derp you use the previous block hash as the tweak value20:20
bramcbrisque, the iblt is vastly smaller than a whole block, and yes it should be fast to process. Xor is quick like that.20:20
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phantomcircuitnot perfect but pretty damned close20:20
trompbramc, rusty: ok, i'll take your word for it:)20:21
bramcrusty, I suspect that making a decent standard wire encoding for that is tough and it's more expedient to just reduce it to 8 bits20:21
rustybramc: there are a couple more refinements possible to my codebase.  First, I insist on recovering the entire transaction (all slices) otherwise I don't remove any from the iblt.  This leads to the cliff effect I see.20:22
rustybramc: Someone did a java implementation which did that, for much more win.20:22
bramcrusty, got a link for that?20:22
bramcAlso, I suspect that thresholding behavior is totally reasonable. If you're off, you're likely to well and truly to be able to get back anything20:23
rustybramc: kallen rosenbaum, commented on http://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/11/05/Playing-with-invertible-bloom-lookup-tables-and-bitcoin-transactions.html#Using-IBLTs20:23
brisquebramc: still going to be slower than a direct TCP squirt, but I suppose it's a reasonable tradeoff if you can manage it.20:24
phantomcircuitbrisque, lol yeah derp previous black hash is perfect as a tweak value since it's (more or less) not controlled by the miner20:24
rustybramc: my next step was testing with some real blocks and txs, but never quite got that round tuit I need.20:25
rustySorry, gtg.20:25
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bramcbrisque, I think the whole context here is that it's supposed to be something for the fast relay network to redistribute20:25
brisquephantomcircuit: if you're talking about blocks with bloom in them, you don't want the client to have to rebuild their filter for every single block20:25
brisquephantomcircuit: it's sort of unavoidable though.20:26
brisqueif you're not I'm going to need to go read some scrollback for context.20:27
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phantomcircuitbrisque, que?20:32
phantomcircuitthe bloom filter in the block would cover just that block20:32
phantomcircuitnothing else20:32
brisquephantomcircuit: yes, but you want to salt the filter to avoid people brute forcing elements in the filter which set all the bits to zero.20:33
brisqueset them to one, rather.20:33
phantomcircuitbrisque, right20:36
phantomcircuitim thinking the previous blocks hash works well for that20:37
phantomcircuitit's effectively immutable (who is going to bruteforce a block such that the next blocks bloom filter has a high false positive rate??)20:37
brisqueyep.20:37
bramcIf you cram a transaction's length into its id that should solve the variable sizes problem20:37
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brisqueit gets uglier with big wallets unfortunately.20:37
bramcphantomcircuit, An attacker knows the previous block when trying to attack the next block though. What's your problem with using the merkle transaction root?20:38
brisqueif you have 5000 keys in your wallet and 10,000 blocks to sync, you're going to be doing an awful lot of hashes.20:38
bramcThis IBLT thing is an example of Fun Things I Shouldn't Be Working On20:39
brisquemore like, Things I Should Be Paid For But Aren't Very Marketable20:39
brisqueyou put the bloom filter in the block, and then we ride it all the way to the moon!20:39
bramcbrisque, I'm working full time on cryptocurrency stuff now but really need to keep focused on things which will actually help get a working project out the door20:40
phantomcircuitbrisque, maybe20:43
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