| --- Log opened Sat Mar 14 00:00:09 2015 | ||
| --- Day changed Sat Mar 14 2015 | ||
| bramc | index is the fragment number? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| rusty | bramc: yep. | 00:00 |
| rusty | bramc: turns out that[8] is *way* too low (little surprise). | 00:00 |
| bramc | I missed that | 00:00 |
| -!- givenchy [cc0e9fcc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.14.159.204] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:00 | |
| rusty | bramc: did you read the hashkeySum stuff in the original IBLT paper? | 00:01 |
| bramc | rusty, No I have a lot of trouble reading papers | 00:01 |
| bramc | I've never quite learned academicese, so when I read papers I tend to nibble at parts of them and rederive stuff and ask people questions | 00:02 |
| rusty | bramc: OK, well it's a pretty simple idea. You add a 16-bit (?) field with the hash of the key. That way you get an extra check if a bucket is really a singleton. | 00:02 |
| bramc | Oh that reminds me, I spoke to the lightning guys and the answer to how they can get around the apparent hard limit of needing to redo everything when the timeout time happens is that they don't. That requires an op_relative_time_verify using a much simpler but still highly technical protocol which they *ahem* are now going to write up clearly | 00:03 |
| bramc | rusty, How is that not just making the id longer? | 00:04 |
| rusty | bramc: you can't tell if an id is valid until after reconstructing the parts. This is a *bucket* hash. | 00:04 |
| bramc | rusty, I'm pretty sure that a separate 'ids only' iblt is a big performance win when there are significant numbers of deletions | 00:05 |
| rusty | bramc: I | 00:05 |
| rusty | bramc: I'm pretty sure it's not, since that's the easy case :) | 00:05 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: the problem you run into is that the efficiecny of iblt goes way down if there is too little data. (e.g. because you don't get enough singletons to decode) | 00:05 |
| -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 00:06 | |
| rusty | bramc: deletions are easy to spot: you only need one fragment. additions are hard, since you need all of them. | 00:06 |
| bramc | rusty, honestly it sounds like a waste of space, I think some careful implementation of guessing which things are singletons and backing up if you notice there's an error will handle that well in practice | 00:07 |
| -!- hktud0 [~ncidsk@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:07 | |
| rusty | bramc: Oh, I agree with hashkeySum being a waste of space. You can get most of the effect by offseting that "index" field by the hash of the fragid. | 00:08 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, But if you have an ids-only one it (a) needs only a single id for a large transaction with multiple fragments (b) needs only id space for each entry anyway | 00:09 |
| rusty | bramc: and then removing the singletons with the lowest-offset index field first (most likely to be valid). | 00:09 |
| bramc | so you can make an ids only iblt with a lot more entries in it, and you'll lean on mostly that one for deletions, and the other one for mostly insertions | 00:09 |
| bramc | rusty, I seem to not be explaining this important point about fragmenting properly | 00:10 |
| rusty | bramc: backtracking could get very expensive for the we're going to fail anyway case, I think. | 00:10 |
| rusty | bramc: no. How do you propose to fragment? | 00:10 |
| bramc | My proposal for fragmenting is that the fragments be treating for reconstruction purposes like separate pieces: hashed separately from each other and recovered separately from each other | 00:11 |
| bramc | so you start out with a bunch of transactions, then fragment them to make separate entries, then store everything in the iblt in an abstraction layer which doesn't really know much about fragmenting, then recover everything in a layer which also doesn't know much about fragmenting, and finally de-frag to get the original transactions back | 00:12 |
| rusty | bramc: Sure, and your implemention will suck. | 00:12 |
| bramc | rusty, why will it suck? | 00:12 |
| bramc | it will be much, much better at handling large transactions | 00:13 |
| rusty | bramc: no, AFAICT that's exactly Gavin's scheme. | 00:13 |
| rusty | bramc: except without the optimization for removal of known txs. | 00:13 |
| rusty | bramc: which is *really* winful. | 00:14 |
| bramc | rusty, so why do you say that large transactions create recovery problems? All that should matter is the number of fragments | 00:14 |
| rusty | bramc: Yep, but you're missing an opportunity to cheat! | 00:14 |
| bramc | what is this cheating you speak of? And what is the business about optimization for removal of known transactions? | 00:15 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: if you know that it doesn't contain fragment A and A is part of txn X, then you magically know it doesn't contain any of X's other fragments. It's a very clever optimization. | 00:15 |
| rusty | bramc: ie. when you do recovery, and find an addition of some fragment, you *know* the rest of the fragments, and can immediatly remove them too. | 00:15 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: thanks! | 00:15 |
| bramc | Oh I thought that trick was too obvious too mention | 00:16 |
| rusty | bramc: for my (admittedly flawed) results this means you can handle about 10x as many "I added a tx you didn't" as "you added a tx I didn't". | 00:16 |
| bramc | Obviously once you've eliminated a fragment you eliminate the rest of the transaction | 00:17 |
| rusty | bramc: that's exactly the opposite of your "abstraction layer" line above. | 00:18 |
| bramc | rusty, I'm pretty sure that if you fiddle with the numbers right a separate ids only data structure will still be a win | 00:18 |
| bramc | rusty, It's a somewhat leaky abstraction layer :-) | 00:18 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:18 | |
| gmaxwell | bramc: there is a way to make 'ids only' a win. But it's a bigger change than just that. | 00:18 |
| gmaxwell | (to get that win you don't even use iblt to encode the rest, you encode the rest with a scheme that needs to send size linear to the missing data only-- an erasure code) | 00:19 |
| rusty | bramc: as I said, it's optimizing the already-easy case. | 00:19 |
| bramc | Oh right you need ids only to not be redundant with the existing data structure, so you need 'the other half of this entry' or something like that | 00:19 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, I don't follow | 00:19 |
| bramc | rusty, easy schmeazy, overhead is overhead | 00:20 |
| gmaxwell | Thats okay, I've sort of giving up explaining it. Next time I come up with something I'll have to call it a hash table or something to all the more engineery types aren't so afraid of diving in. :P | 00:20 |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 00:21 | |
| bramc | gmaxwell, It seems like in principle it should be possible to build these things more efficiently, for information theoretic reasons, but ECC doesn't seem to exactly match | 00:21 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: it matches exactly once you know the IDs in the set and the lengths of the unknown entities. :) | 00:22 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, true but for things with such sparse holes you need to use tornado codes for it to perform at all | 00:24 |
| bramc | Maybe you could use iblt for finding the ids and lengths and ecc for filling in the data? | 00:24 |
| rusty | bramc: feel free to play with my code on github. Since you've reminded me of it, I might do so too:) https://github.com/rustyrussell/bitcoin-iblt-test | 00:25 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: you can. (or polynomial set reconciliation, which is information theoretically optimal) | 00:25 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, aren't tornado codes very close to optimal and very efficient? | 00:26 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: luby's later work (fontain codes) are more interesting. Though sipa crunched numbers and it looks like RS codes actually work fine. My "or" above was an alterntive to using iblt for the IDs. | 00:27 |
| gmaxwell | IBLT is to polynomial set reconciliation as a LT fountain code is to a Reed-Solomon erasure code. | 00:28 |
| bramc | Oh I see. I didn't quite parse that 'polynomial set reconciliation' is a form of set reconciliation | 00:28 |
| bramc | Yes that's obvious when I actually read the term | 00:28 |
| bramc | So in that case you expand your ids to be id+length and do polynomial set reconciliation on those, then do ECC on the whole string | 00:29 |
| bramc | That seems much more mathematically elegant. Less of a fun hack for the engineers to play with though. | 00:30 |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] | 00:30 | |
| bramc | I think I've now gotten enough familiarity with iblt and related concepts that I can stop worrying about it. | 00:31 |
| gmaxwell | I've not played with implementing iblt myself, but I had tremendous fun implementing fountain codes a while back, and they're pretty similar. | 00:32 |
| bramc | Aren't fountain codes patent encumbered? | 00:32 |
| gmaxwell | Yup, or at least there are patents in that space. (I actually noted that on the writeup, and mentioned alternatives) | 00:33 |
| gmaxwell | (there may also be a non-public patent application for iBLT as of yet, papers are new enough that there could be; and the author has filed patents previously) | 00:36 |
| bramc | On the expansion of the ids before doing polynomial set reconciliation: It you wouldn't just tack on bits of length, you overwrite a variable amount using omega encoding | 00:38 |
| bramc | Also I think the earlier confusion about difficulty of larger transactions was that I thought the claim was being made that larger transactions are harder to insert, because there's a dumb way of screwing that up, but the claim was that larger transactions are easier to delete, which is sort of the opposite claim and also true. | 00:40 |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:04 | |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:05 | |
| * andy-logbot is logging | 01:05 | |
| -!- p15x_ [~p15x@61.49.120.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:08 | |
| -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 01:08 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 01:09 | |
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:09 | |
| -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 01:09 | |
| -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:11 | |
| -!- afk11 [~thomas@89.100.72.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 01:15 | |
| -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-73-51-255-57.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:24 | |
| -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-73-51-255-57.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] | 01:24 | |
| -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:24 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:29 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 01:30 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@c-67-180-209-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 01:34 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 01:43 | |
| -!- p15x_ [~p15x@61.49.120.187] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 01:55 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:f5a0:6dff:5bbf:a292] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 01:56 | |
| -!- crowleyman [crowleyman@gateway/shell/bnc4free/x-chpyshnlghbbobld] has quit [Excess Flood] | 01:59 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@61.49.120.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:00 | |
| -!- crowleyman [crowleyman@gateway/shell/bnc4free/x-pgbeeraeryamiqdc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:03 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:11 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:20 | |
| -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:28 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 02:36 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:37 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 02:37 | |
| -!- johnguest [~chatzilla@adsl-50.91.140.60.tellas.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:39 | |
| johnguest | spartancoin is the name | 02:39 |
| -!- koshii_ [~0@cpe-107-184-241-124.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:40 | |
| -!- koshii [~0@cpe-107-184-241-124.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 02:40 | |
| sipa | johnguest: not here | 02:43 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:44 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@85.91.139.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 02:45 | |
| -!- fanquake_ [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:45 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 02:46 | |
| -!- fanquake_ is now known as fanquake | 02:46 | |
| -!- johnguest [~chatzilla@adsl-50.91.140.60.tellas.gr] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 02:48 | |
| -!- crowleyman is now known as crwlymn | 02:48 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:58 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 03:03 | |
| -!- jhogan42 [~textual@c-67-169-168-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 03:27 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 03:29 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:42 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:46 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:54 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host] | 03:54 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:54 | |
| -!- givenchy [cc0e9fcc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.14.159.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 04:09 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 04:11 | |
| Muis | with bitcoin you are 'allowed' to mine a block when some condition (difficulty is met) | 04:12 |
| Muis | and other peers are able to check that condition immediately, but also years later | 04:12 |
| Muis | but suppose there was a second conditiion | 04:12 |
| -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:13 | |
| Muis | and other peers can check for that right now, but will not be able to re-check it in the future | 04:13 |
| Muis | would that make the network insecure by design, or is there some way the network can record that they agreed today? | 04:13 |
| sipa | recording that they agreed is not enough | 04:14 |
| Muis | mmhh | 04:14 |
| sipa | also, what is the point? | 04:14 |
| Muis | i have an idea | 04:14 |
| sipa | what is the benefit? | 04:14 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 04:15 | |
| Muis | its kind of complicated, but you can compare it to something like: | 04:16 |
| Muis | suppose the chain draws random numbers, and only miners that are connected with an IP address that match the number are privileged to mine. then the whole network can just refuse to relay new blocks from other IPs, and it would be pretty secure. But for new joiners to the network, they can never verify that it was actually relayed by that IP | 04:17 |
| Muis | (my idea has nothing to do with IPs but I try to make it simple) | 04:18 |
| sipa | refusing to accept an otherwise valid block is a really bad kdea, unless you know that others will reject it too | 04:19 |
| Muis | I assume that the majority is honest | 04:19 |
| Muis | no | 04:20 |
| Muis | i must say it differently | 04:20 |
| Muis | I dont assume the majority is honest, but I dont mind being on a fork as long as it is the fork of the honest ones :) | 04:21 |
| sipa | we do have something similar in bitcoin already | 04:21 |
| sipa | namely the maximum timestamp | 04:21 |
| -!- crwlymn is now known as crowleyman | 04:21 | |
| sipa | but that doesn't have the same problem as it is only temporary blocking | 04:21 |
| Muis | how do you mean temporary | 04:22 |
| Muis | that suppose those blocks ended up in the chain | 04:22 |
| sipa | if time passes, a too high timestamp becomes valid | 04:22 |
| Muis | the chain would still be valid | 04:22 |
| Muis | yes ok | 04:22 |
| Muis | now I think about it | 04:23 |
| sipa | right, it doesn't affect the ultimately valid chain, only the one we choose to accept right now | 04:23 |
| Muis | thats also no problem in my case | 04:23 |
| Muis | I just want to make it highly unlikely | 04:23 |
| sipa | so what is your idea | 04:23 |
| Muis | and I guess its very unlikely for too high timestamps to end up in the chain? | 04:23 |
| sipa | yes, because few nodes will (quickly) accept them | 04:24 |
| Muis | do nodes also actively block other nodes who broadacast invalid timestamps? or does it not go that far? | 04:24 |
| sipa | no | 04:25 |
| sipa | not afaik | 04:25 |
| Muis | okay this is my idea: | 04:25 |
| Muis | but its a long story, so if you are in a hurry say it | 04:25 |
| sipa | what are you trying to accomplish? | 04:26 |
| sipa | if it's long, maybe write it up somewhere, and post a link | 04:27 |
| sipa | so others can read it later | 04:27 |
| Muis | I want to mix proof of work with something new: location. Locations are something weird in digital space, because the concept does not exist. But still its very important: your bitcoins can only be in 1 location at the same time. | 04:28 |
| sipa | ok | 04:29 |
| Muis | It basicly boils down to this: | 04:29 |
| Muis | Peers publish their GPS locations, and every 10 minutes a different location is allowed to mine. Miners try to pool with peers from the same country (based on the publish gps location, which may be fake). Now after they joined the pool, they ping all the peers and sort them by latency, after they found the peer with the lowest latency, they can be pretty | 04:35 |
| Muis | sure that the found someone who is very close to them. They record a vote in the chain saying: I dont know where peer A is, but I claim that he is closer to me than B, C and D, etc. | 04:35 |
| brisque | what stops the miners from just lying? | 04:36 |
| brisque | nobody could tell if they are right, wrong, or just mislead. | 04:36 |
| Taek | Muis: how do you sort by latency? What's to stop a massive mining pool from having nodes in 500 locations that can all respond with low latency, but tap into the higher powered miner? | 04:37 |
| Taek | Mining takes a long time anyway, nobody is going to recognize an extra 200ms when a block is found | 04:38 |
| Muis | After that you send POW prefixed with the IP of that peer, to that peer. If he wants to pair with you, he sends POW back based on what you send him, and you continue this proces with other peers (this last step I must describe in some document or else its gets too long). But the proof now is that if one of you lied, other pairs will will the block because | 04:38 |
| Muis | they can do faster POW because the ping between the hosts is 140 ms instead of 11 ms for example. | 04:38 |
| brisque | also note that as the crow flies is not how the internet works. you can have in some cases people who are 100 meters apart but have to transverse half a country for TCP packets. | 04:39 |
| Muis | Taek: you cannoit have 500 miners in one location | 04:39 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:40 | |
| Muis | Taek: Because you have to transfer the results forth/back between the country of the fake node, and the country of the real miner | 04:40 |
| Muis | and if you do that, you always will be slower than miners who are really located in that country and do not fake | 04:40 |
| Muis | if your datacenter or mining rack is 500 KM away, you already have 5 millisecond extra latency | 04:40 |
| Muis | and you will never mine a block | 04:40 |
| Taek | what determines when a block has been found? | 04:41 |
| Muis | because those 5 milliseconds are amplified | 04:41 |
| Muis | the difficulty, but its a different difficulty as with bitcoin because it depends on two conditions | 04:41 |
| Muis | what it comes down to: | 04:42 |
| brisque | again physical location and latency are loosely linked. even in the absence of other problems, you can't determine location like that. if I ping my neighbour it's a 150ms+ round trip, even though we are physically in the same place. | 04:42 |
| Muis | the network select two random GPS locations: you try to form a chain with pow from country A to country B, and if you can provide a valid chain, then that chain allows you to broadcast the block, and a new block starts | 04:43 |
| Taek | For the sake of science I'm happy enough assuming a spherical Internet | 04:43 |
| Muis | brisque: that doesnt matter.. it just means that if you want to team-mine with your neighbour, he is a bad partner | 04:44 |
| Taek | What determines if a node is allowed to mine? | 04:45 |
| Muis | it doesnt matter when a peer is slower than he should | 04:45 |
| Muis | because people fake slowness | 04:45 |
| Muis | it matters that they cannot fake speed | 04:45 |
| Taek | so, say we pick Chicago and NY as the two GPS locations | 04:45 |
| brisque | if I wanted to "mine" with anybody I'm a bad partner. it's 70ms just to get to my ISPs network let alone outside. | 04:45 |
| Taek | how do you know that the peers forming the mining chain are in Chicago and NY? | 04:46 |
| Taek | why not have 1 datacenter in SF do all of the mining and just say that it was 2 datacenters? | 04:46 |
| Taek | it's quite likely that the biggest datacenter in the world will have more power than the two random locations you picked combined | 04:46 |
| Muis | thats impossible | 04:46 |
| Taek | which part? | 04:47 |
| -!- crowleyman is now known as crwlymn | 04:48 | |
| Muis | the peers are all split according to small regions, so if you do what you say, then all peers in region Chicago and NY will vote that they never saw you in their peer-list, and all the peers along the path will say that too. | 04:48 |
| Muis | its not like treechains that every region mines a different chain | 04:49 |
| Muis | they mine the same chain as other regions, its just that they prefix their hashes with another region-code | 04:49 |
| Muis | and they will reject blocks which have their region-code, but contains peers they do not recognize | 04:50 |
| Taek | but what stops me from bribing peers in chicago to say that they saw me in the peer list? And what happens if I make 10,000 fake nodes that all say they're in Chicago? | 04:50 |
| -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@ip9135c25d.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:51 | |
| Muis | if you bring 10.000 fake nodes that all claim to be in Chicago | 04:51 |
| -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host178-23-dynamic.12-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:51 | |
| Muis | it doesnt work, because the latency to the datacenter will make them loose the race | 04:51 |
| Muis | but suppose the 10.000 are really in chicago | 04:51 |
| Taek | they don't have mining power, they're just endorsing the idea that my datacenter is in chicago | 04:52 |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:c817:27d3:5e8d:f766] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:53 | |
| Muis | it still wont work, because every block a different region is selected, so even though you represent > 51% of the hashrate, and also > 51% of the nodes, you can never use it to mine a block more than once every X blocks. (X= number of regions) | 04:53 |
| Muis | if they are just endorsing an idea it will never work | 04:53 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 04:54 | |
| Muis | because they have to form a path from that region to another? if they have high latency in the Chicago area, how will they ever form a chain to new york the fastest to win the race? | 04:54 |
| Taek | they aren't forming a chain to NY. My 10,000 in Chicago says my datacenter in SF is in Chicago, and my 10,000 in NY say my datacenter is in NY. So my datacenter pretends to be two datacenters, one in each location, and really it's just getting sub-millisecond latency | 04:55 |
| Taek | while using the full power for each | 04:56 |
| Taek | wining the race is easy if I can make people believe that I'm in a location that I'm not | 04:56 |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@user-5af5157d.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:57 | |
| Muis | the proof of work is the path from region A to region B, so you need to do the POW not only with your partner-peer in Chicago, but that hash must travel trough all region-codes between those two cities, every time using the same partner-hashing. So you dont need datacenters in Chicago and NY, you need datacenters in all towns and villages between those | 04:58 |
| Muis | cities. | 04:58 |
| Muis | and every node that is part of the winning path, earns a small reward | 04:59 |
| brisque | how do you prove to other people that it transversed that route? | 04:59 |
| Muis | because they can verify that for themselves? | 04:59 |
| * brisque blinks | 05:00 | |
| brisque | how. | 05:00 |
| Muis | they just ask a random peer in country A: do you know something in the path called X? | 05:00 |
| Muis | *someone | 05:00 |
| brisque | I don't think you understand the sybil problem. we should take this to #bitcoin. | 05:00 |
| Muis | I do | 05:00 |
| Muis | but I dont explain myself wel, because they can also verify that from the path alone | 05:01 |
| Muis | since it contains pow based on the IP's in the chain | 05:01 |
| * brisque rolls eyes | 05:01 | |
| Taek | If you are in London, watching all of this, how do you decide which peers are or are not in NY? | 05:02 |
| -!- brisque [~brisque@unaffiliated/brisque] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["quit"] | 05:02 | |
| Taek | lol | 05:02 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:03 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@user-5af5157d.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 05:03 | |
| Muis | Taek: because all past history in the chain is basicly a record of pow-votes for locations, so if you take that data, you can reconcstruct a large world-map with estimated positions of nodes with a reasonable accury. its exactly how GPS triangluaton works | 05:03 |
| Taek | that only works if the majority of hashing power has been honest the whole time | 05:04 |
| Taek | but security is worse than that, because most of your hashing power is idle most of the time | 05:04 |
| Taek | If one big miner starts from block 1 and constructs an alternate view of reality where his "nodes" are scattered all over the world, and they're all endorsing each other, and providing fake timestamps etc. | 05:05 |
| Taek | he can get a much larger/more difficult blockchain much faster | 05:05 |
| Muis | that doesnt work | 05:05 |
| Taek | even without 51% of global hashing power | 05:05 |
| Muis | because a client can read that chain | 05:05 |
| Muis | and calculate where his own location is according to that chain | 05:06 |
| Muis | and if its own position mismatches, its a bad chain | 05:06 |
| Taek | That's called subjective consensus | 05:06 |
| Muis | how do you mean | 05:07 |
| Taek | if each client is deciding for themselves which chain is valid based on data that only they know (their own location), you're going to have problems | 05:07 |
| Muis | no its only for when they are in doubt, normally they dont have to do it like that | 05:08 |
| Muis | and they should never be in doubt if they follow the protocol | 05:08 |
| Taek | just the fact that you have subjective rules though opens up an entire world of hardfork risks | 05:08 |
| Taek | it's unreasonable to assume that miners won't try to lie about their location, because there's clearly a large profit incentive for doing so | 05:09 |
| Muis | I dont assume that | 05:10 |
| Taek | then you acknowledge that sometimes clients will be using subjective rules? | 05:13 |
| Muis | no not really, but I must make a better write-up | 05:16 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 05:17 | |
| Muis | first, they will never be able to join the country-pool from that location, because other peers from that country will not relay and disconnect them (based on ping times, ip adress, hostname, etc.). and each region is also connected to their neighbouring regions, so if you need to travel your fake work accross, nobody on that path will relay for you | 05:17 |
| Muis | second, even if you try to do it anyway, you will loose the race, because the path with the least latency will win, and you cannot magicly transport your asics to that country or city | 05:18 |
| Muis | so having a sybil group of fake nodes is not impossible, its just that their outisde IP address will never geo-locate to that region, and their latency is too high to ever win | 05:19 |
| Muis | and you cannot change region with every block | 05:20 |
| Muis | because existing pow for one region stays valid for some time, so if you join the region AFTER its public which region is start or endpoint of the path, then you will have a disadvantage compared to the people who were already commited to that region in the hour before | 05:23 |
| -!- brisque [~brisque@unaffiliated/brisque] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:24 | |
| Muis | so your point of 'most hashing power is idle most of the time' is not really true, its just that they are already kind of preparing for when their region is picked | 05:25 |
| -!- antgreen` [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:25 | |
| Muis | and if the path is from Germany to Spain, and you are from region Belgium, you are still allowed to form a valid pow-path as long as it contains the start- and endpoint. but most likely you will not win, because nodes who happen to live in the right country can form a shorter path | 05:28 |
| Muis | so you will only win if you are faster, even though your path was longer | 05:29 |
| -!- crwlymn is now known as crowleyman | 05:31 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:36 | |
| Muis | I think the beauity of this scheme is that honest miners will only have to 50% of the work, because they form couples all the time. And dishonest miners need to do twice the work, because they need to form pairs with themselves, essentially doing twice the effort with the same net result. | 05:37 |
| Muis | i never saw anything like that before | 05:37 |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@user-5af5157d.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:42 | |
| -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:45 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:52 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:81af:e3de:801b:95ff] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:54 | |
| -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 05:57 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 05:57 | |
| -!- afk11 [~thomas@89.100.72.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:01 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@user-5af5157d.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:01 | |
| -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:04 | |
| -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 06:07 | |
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 06:13 | |
| -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@ip9135c25d.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 06:17 | |
| -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:23 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 06:23 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@95.83.254.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:29 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@95.158.129.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:31 | |
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:33 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@95.83.254.63] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 06:38 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 06:47 | |
| -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:50 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:56 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] | 06:56 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:56 | |
| -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:06 | |
| -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.62] has quit [Quit: -] | 07:06 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:09 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@173.234.150.144] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:13 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@173.234.150.144] has quit [Changing host] | 07:13 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:13 | |
| -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@ip9135c25d.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:13 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:14 | |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has quit [] | 07:18 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:30 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:34 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has quit [Quit: feel the bass] | 07:36 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 07:44 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:44 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@61.149.240.55] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 07:48 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 07:48 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:81af:e3de:801b:95ff] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 07:48 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@61.149.240.55] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:49 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:55 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@95.83.254.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:02 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 08:15 | |
| -!- Mably_ [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:16 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@174-16-35-35.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:17 | |
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 08:19 | |
| -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in] | 08:22 | |
| -!- HM [~HM@81.4.101.225] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:31 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@95.83.254.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 08:36 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 08:39 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:39 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] | 08:39 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:39 | |
| -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@ec2-54-67-38-167.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:40 | |
| -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@ec2-54-67-38-167.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Changing host] | 08:40 | |
| -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:40 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 08:44 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:44 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:45 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] | 08:45 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:45 | |
| -!- HM2 [~HM@178.62.229.149] has quit [Quit: Segmentation fault] | 08:45 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 08:48 | |
| -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 08:50 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@c-67-180-209-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:53 | |
| -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:54 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 08:56 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@173.234.150.144] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:01 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@173.234.150.144] has quit [Changing host] | 09:01 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:01 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@69.23.213.3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:02 | |
| -!- dc17523b13 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bcxiougojnyqcgdd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 09:02 | |
| -!- JonTitor [~superobse@unaffiliated/superobserver] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 09:02 | |
| -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-jxugqvkpmspsjpod] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:04 | |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 09:05 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 09:09 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 09:12 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:12 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:13 | |
| -!- JonTitor [~superobse@unaffiliated/superobserver] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:14 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 09:18 | |
| dgenr8 | Muis: what benefits does this scheme deliver, if it worked? | 09:21 |
| dgenr8 | re mining, i've been flashing on a mental picture enzymes replicating a strand of DNA | 09:22 |
| dgenr8 | the reality is amazing http://www.dnalc.org/resources/3d/04-mechanism-of-replication-advanced.html | 09:22 |
| dgenr8 | "how the sausage is made" is so complex, but the result it so simple | 09:23 |
| Muis | dgenr8: providing an incentive for geographically decentralized mining | 09:23 |
| dgenr8 | Muis: why? | 09:23 |
| -!- OneFixt [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 09:25 | |
| Muis | dgenr8: so that people dont need asics anymore to win a block, and making the network more secure as Bitcoin: since 51 percent attack is much harder to pull off | 09:25 |
| -!- OneFixt [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:25 | |
| Muis | As it requires not only to have 51 percent of the hashrate | 09:26 |
| Muis | But to have that amount on each possible geographical location | 09:27 |
| Muis | So with 255 countries/regions thats 255 times the hashrate | 09:27 |
| Muis | *127 | 09:28 |
| -!- d1ggy_ [~d1ggy@dslb-178-003-013-061.178.003.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 09:28 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:29 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 09:29 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 09:29 | |
| kanzure | dgenr8: i have spent a great deal of time thinking about polymerases... http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/ | 09:30 |
| -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-jxugqvkpmspsjpod] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 09:31 | |
| -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-cwezttpavcsrlmst] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:31 | |
| Muis | I once read that the DNA of one person is 650 MB of data | 09:31 |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 09:32 | |
| Muis | So you one cd-rom is enough to describe you | 09:32 |
| Luke-Jr | Muis: uh, no. DNA is only the biological blueprint, it doesn't describe anything beyond that. | 09:32 |
| kanzure | and also the lifecycle is not determined by dna anyway | 09:33 |
| kanzure | (there's an initial state that is maintained outside of dna, sort of) | 09:33 |
| Muis | Luke-Jr: i can deduct how you look like based on that | 09:34 |
| sipa | Muis: there is also mitochondrial DNA | 09:35 |
| Muis | But only if you are african or chinese, nothing specific ofcourse | 09:35 |
| Luke-Jr | Muis: only very little about how I look. most people wear clothes, some have scars from their experiences, some dye their hair, etc | 09:35 |
| sipa | Muis: what does race have anything to do with it? | 09:35 |
| Muis | sipa: you can deduct that from DNA | 09:36 |
| sipa | oh, you mean you can determine race | 09:36 |
| sipa | i read it as "you can only determine anything if they are chinese or african" | 09:36 |
| Luke-Jr | lol | 09:36 |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:36 | |
| Muis | But i dont mean race because East european is not really a race | 09:37 |
| Muis | But more where they were born | 09:37 |
| Luke-Jr | eh, that'd be hard. people travel.. | 09:38 |
| kanzure | this is boring | 09:38 |
| Muis | Dont know the word in english for it | 09:38 |
| dgenr8 | anyway, an idea like Muis's (for better or worse) is just an adjustment to the "polymerase" machinery. it's clear that something has tweaked and adjusted it infintely already, it's just one more tweak | 09:38 |
| sipa | Muis: ethnicity | 09:38 |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@95.83.254.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:38 | |
| Muis | Tnx | 09:39 |
| Muis | But suppose you digitize your DNA and store those 650 MB in the chain | 09:40 |
| kanzure | there's no reason to do that | 09:41 |
| kanzure | most dna is redundant, and you can safely store just the differences (polymorphisms) | 09:41 |
| Muis | How hard would it be for people to verify its me, or does dna testing take days in a lab? | 09:41 |
| kanzure | there's nothing in the dna that determines whether it is you | 09:41 |
| Eliel | are there other reasons to avoid the mini private key format than reduced key length? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mini_private_key_format (by, the way, the wikipage talks about Mt.Gox still) | 09:41 |
| sipa | Muis: also, what does putting it in a chain gain you? | 09:41 |
| Muis | A way to link my identitiy like a web of trust | 09:42 |
| kanzure | dna is not identity -_- | 09:42 |
| sipa | you can do that without a blockchain | 09:42 |
| kanzure | if dna was identity then twins would be impossible. and they exist. | 09:42 |
| Muis | My twin may open my wallet | 09:43 |
| sipa | make a gpg key, have an identity with a hash of your serialized dna in it | 09:43 |
| Muis | But no one else | 09:43 |
| kanzure | dna is not a private key | 09:43 |
| sipa | sign it | 09:43 |
| sipa | if you want to prove to someone you're you, have them do a dns test, and give them the full dns sequence to compare with | 09:43 |
| Muis | I can make a private key based on my DNA | 09:43 |
| sipa | that's pointless | 09:43 |
| kanzure | sipa: dna tests do not give you guarantees like that | 09:43 |
| Muis | 99.9999 garantuee | 09:44 |
| sipa | kanzure: i know; but even if we assume dns was 100% constant throughout your body and your life, mutastions didn't happen, and twins didn't exist | 09:44 |
| sipa | even then there is no fricking point to put it in a blockchain | 09:44 |
| Muis | why not | 09:44 |
| kanzure | sipa: i think some people are just really upset that identity doesn't work and that they have been lied to :/ | 09:44 |
| Muis | Maybe i loose my wallet | 09:44 |
| Taek | it's bad for privacy. (i kid) | 09:44 |
| sipa | Muis: i just gave you an 100% equivalent scheme | 09:44 |
| Muis | Yeah i dont reallyneed it to back it up | 09:45 |
| -!- zooko [~user@174-16-35-35.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["#tahoe-lafs the cryptographically-protected distributed storage system"] | 09:45 | |
| -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["this is pointless"] | 09:45 | |
| kanzure | dna is a bad idea for private key material because most dna is shared between almost all life we have ever known about | 09:46 |
| Muis | Haha | 09:46 |
| Muis | Good point | 09:46 |
| dgenr8 | and you leave copies of your private key on everything you touch | 09:46 |
| Taek | ^ | 09:46 |
| Muis | Could the process of matching DNA in a databank be potentially POW, or is it hard to verify the match? | 09:48 |
| dgenr8 | Holy crap. The incoming strand spins at 10,000 RPM. Must invent massively parallel organic miner. | 09:49 |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:50 | |
| kanzure | Muis: i recommend learning some biology stuff first | 09:50 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Molecular%20Biology%20of%20the%20Cell%20-%204th%20edition.pdf | 09:50 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Primer%20for%20Synthetic%20Biology.pdf | 09:51 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Molecular%20biology%20of%20the%20gene%20(Watson,%20Baker,%20Bell,%20Gann,%20Levine,%20Losick%20-%202004%20-%205th%20ed.%20-%20Pearson).pdf | 09:51 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] I remember those text books | 09:51 |
| Muis | kanzure: i hate biology so i hoped u might knew the answer by chance | 09:51 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] DNA is generally not super stable | 09:51 |
| -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-178-003-013-061.178.003.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:51 | |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] because of polymerase errors | 09:51 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] so you'd have to have a high redundancy | 09:52 |
| kanzure | tacotime: dna is unstable for other reasons, some polymerases have error checking and much lower error rates | 09:52 |
| kanzure | tacotime: for example, dna has rarely been known to survive for more than 2 million years | 09:52 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] well, yeah, but it's not like it's RNA | 09:53 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] i've pcr'd from template samples stored at -20C for a couple of decades with no issue | 09:53 |
| kanzure | yes... if you look at rna wrong, your project explodes.... or something. | 09:54 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] as long as you keep it nuclease free, frozen, and in buffer, it's pretty happy | 09:54 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] yeah don't even get me started on rna isolation, i spent enough time tortured by reverse transcriptase protocols | 09:54 |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:55 | |
| MRL-Relay | [fluffypony] ah yes, reverse transcriptase something something | 09:55 |
| kanzure | tacotime: i would appreciate your commentary regarding https://groups.google.com/group/enzymaticsynthesis | 09:55 |
| MRL-Relay | [fluffypony] the best kind of tase | 09:55 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] kanzure: is this some kind of group where computer engineers develop theoretical biochemical protocols? | 09:56 |
| kanzure | tacotime: more specifically the goal of that group is enzymatic dna synthesis (without phosphoramidite chemistry).. my dna synthesizer suuuucks: https://www.takeitapart.com/guide/94 | 09:57 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] ehm | 09:58 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] phosphoramidite chem is fine... just make short sequences with small overlaps and use enzymes to fill in/stitch until you get the length you require | 09:58 |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pbeqtaozvxoweysc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:59 | |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] we used to just straight up synth plasmids with thousands of base pairs for not too much money | 09:59 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] and that was only a year ago | 09:59 |
| kanzure | yes but i don't want to spend $40M/genome or whatever... i want $1/genome. | 09:59 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] oh | 09:59 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] you want something that prints millions of base pairs? | 09:59 |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@95.158.129.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 10:00 | |
| kanzure | yep... so i have been looking into something more like http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/synthesis/Synthesis%20-%20Microfluidic%20PicoArray%20synthesis%20of%20oligodeoxynucleotides%20and%20simultaneous%20assembling%20of%20multiple%20DNA%20sequences%20(10%20kb).pdf | 10:00 |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@95.158.129.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:00 | |
| kanzure | (using DMD projectors, spatial light modulation, etc) | 10:00 |
| -!- crowleyman [crowleyman@gateway/shell/bnc4free/x-pgbeeraeryamiqdc] has quit [Quit: DWTW~] | 10:00 | |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] is this your day job? | 10:00 |
| kanzure | my day job is ledgerx | 10:01 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] artificial chromosome production is usually via yeast | 10:01 |
| kanzure | sure | 10:01 |
| -!- droark [~droark@173-162-150-61-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:02 | |
| dgenr8 | dunno why it took so long to figure out how this stuff works. you can see it all right there in the video ;) | 10:02 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] ...i wouldn't recommend stepping too far outside of the biological systems for something like this. to stabilize massive amounts of dna you usually use histones/etc too. | 10:03 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] i was very good at sheering whole genomes after chloroform/phenol extracting them. keeping them in one piece when they're non-compacted is a nightmare. | 10:04 |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@95.158.129.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 10:04 | |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] anyway, this is pretty OT... you can get in touch with me at dev.mc2@gmail.com if you want to discuss this in length. all my experience will probably be practical lab stuff, though. | 10:06 |
| -!- woah [~woah@presence.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:08 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:10 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:24 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.24.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 10:24 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:24 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] | 10:24 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:24 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.24.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:25 | |
| -!- roasbeef [~root@104.131.26.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 10:29 | |
| -!- roasbeef [~root@104.131.26.124] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:29 | |
| -!- devrandom [~devrandom@unaffiliated/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:31 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@95.83.254.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 10:32 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 10:35 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 10:36 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:36 | |
| -!- btcdrak [uid52049@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qlvozelfdgfapdoz] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 10:38 | |
| -!- x98gvyn [~vfbtgn@86.126.0.191] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 10:45 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@c-67-180-209-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 10:46 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] | 10:47 | |
| -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@126.Red-83-32-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 10:52 | |
| -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@126.Red-83-32-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:52 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 10:55 | |
| -!- AdrianG [~User@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 10:58 | |
| -!- AdrianG [~User@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:59 | |
| -!- skittylx [skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:01 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 11:02 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-17-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:04 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@c-67-180-209-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:05 | |
| -!- belcher_ [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:12 | |
| -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 11:13 | |
| -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher | 11:13 | |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@c-69-254-243-205.hsd1.ks.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:23 | |
| -!- oaavi [uid16128@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ifqbtalzlxhhdmkg] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 11:25 | |
| -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@ip9135c25d.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 11:37 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@83.70.200.146] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:39 | |
| fluffypony | altcoin whitepapers in a nutshell: http://i.imgur.com/2WuM3pW.jpg | 11:40 |
| belcher | would read again | 11:43 |
| realcr | fluffypony: It's great :) | 11:46 |
| -!- woah [~woah@presence.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 11:46 | |
| -!- skittylx [skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has quit [Quit: feel the bass] | 11:46 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:49 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Changing host] | 11:49 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:49 | |
| -!- xenog [~xenog@83.70.200.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 11:52 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 11:52 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 11:55 | |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@c-69-254-243-205.hsd1.ks.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 12:09 | |
| -!- LeMiner [HydraIRC@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 12:17 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pbeqtaozvxoweysc] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 12:20 | |
| -!- Hybridsole [~hybridsol@c-69-243-228-52.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 12:21 | |
| Muis | fluffypone: nice! | 12:21 |
| Muis | btw: I listened to your podcast | 12:21 |
| Muis | it was 6 hours long or so it felt | 12:22 |
| -!- Hybridsole [~hybridsol@c-69-243-228-52.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:22 | |
| Muis | but very interesting things about Monero | 12:22 |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 12:24 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vcxoersckftcfpjs] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:24 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:25 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] | 12:25 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:25 | |
| -!- amincd [1710a2c6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.23.16.162.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 12:29 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@c-67-180-209-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 12:30 | |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 12:43 | |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:43 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@195.159.234.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 12:45 | |
| amiller_ | i like the leakage one better fluffypony | 12:45 |
| amiller_ | there's a whole journal for this junk :p http://www.anagram.com/jcrap/ | 12:45 |
| fluffypony | Muis: yeah 3.5 hours, was crazy long:) | 12:46 |
| fluffypony | amiller_: LOL - the Journal of Craptology! | 12:46 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] http://www.anagram.com/jcrap/Volume_8/heatherweight.pdf | 12:54 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] oh dear | 12:54 |
| -!- skittylx [skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:56 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@69.23.213.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 12:58 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:03 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 13:13 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:14 | |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:14 | |
| fluffypony | "The author is grateful to Antonio Banderas for inspiration. It was while watching his performance as Zorro that the zero function first surfaced as an idea for an encryp- tion algorithm. Previous meditations on his co-star had led to consideration of the zeta function ζ(s) = Σ∞ 1 , which did not work nearly so well." | 13:15 |
| -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:15 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:15 | |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 13:18 | |
| -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 13:19 | |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:c817:27d3:5e8d:f766] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 13:22 | |
| -!- skittylx [skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has quit [Quit: feel the bass] | 13:28 | |
| -!- grandmaster [dansmith3@knows.the.cops.are.investigat.in] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:32 | |
| kanzure | link to the six hour podcast? | 13:35 |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:d5d0:8347:d469:401b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:44 | |
| Muis | https://www.mixcloud.com/dogedradio/monero-coin-interview/ | 13:47 |
| Muis | that fluffy needs so many hours just to explain Monero's basics, says enough :D | 13:47 |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:d5d0:8347:d469:401b] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 13:49 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@2601:8:a380:e29:5d08:c0d3:64f1:bd6d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:49 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@2601:8:a380:e29:5d08:c0d3:64f1:bd6d] has quit [Changing host] | 13:49 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:49 | |
| gmaxwell | fluffypony: you've seen the youtube video related to that chicken-chicken thing, right? | 13:49 |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@adsl-98-71-197-229.jax.bellsouth.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:50 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:50 | |
| gmaxwell | also if that were a altcoin whitepaper it would end with "chicken chicken, chicken. Chicken Profit!" | 13:51 |
| fluffypony | lol | 13:55 |
| Muis | gmaxwell: link? | 13:55 |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 14:01 | |
| kanzure | above. | 14:01 |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:01 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] | 14:01 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:01 | |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@adsl-98-71-197-229.jax.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 14:08 | |
| -!- vmatekol_ [~vmatekole@e180247220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:10 | |
| -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 14:13 | |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@177.sub-70-209-24.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:15 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@c-67-180-209-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:19 | |
| gmaxwell | Muis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_-1d9OSdk | 14:19 |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 14:20 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:21 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Changing host] | 14:21 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:21 | |
| -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-tydcikvgkezgdipt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:25 | |
| -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.24.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:30 | |
| -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.24.162] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 14:30 | |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@177.sub-70-209-24.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] | 14:36 | |
| -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:a104:44a7:7861:135e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:36 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@c-67-180-209-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 14:38 | |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:43 | |
| -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 14:44 | |
| -!- droark [~droark@173-162-150-61-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] | 14:47 | |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 14:49 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:50 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:58 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 15:03 | |
| fluffypony | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=990285.new#new | 15:04 |
| kanzure | .title | 15:04 |
| yoleaux | [ANN] [CHK] Chicken | chicken. chickens. chicken. | RC Chicken | 15:04 |
| phantomcircuit | fluffypony, please tell me they have a working client | 15:05 |
| fluffypony | phantomcircuit: I haven't even started on the source code | 15:05 |
| fluffypony | I figured I'd wait until someone creates DarkChicken | 15:05 |
| fluffypony | and then I'd retro-fork that back | 15:05 |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:05 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 15:07 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:07 | |
| -!- gabridome_ [~gabridome@host178-23-dynamic.12-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:08 | |
| -!- MoALTz_ [~no@78.11.179.104] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:08 | |
| phantomcircuit | fluffypony, lol the only reply | 15:08 |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 15:10 | |
| -!- MoALTz [~no@78.11.179.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 15:10 | |
| -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host178-23-dynamic.12-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 15:11 | |
| -!- gabridome_ is now known as gabridome | 15:11 | |
| -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:12 | |
| -!- prodatalab__ [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:a104:44a7:7861:135e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:22 | |
| -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:a104:44a7:7861:135e] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 15:23 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 15:25 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-147-70.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:26 | |
| -!- kmels [~kmels@186.151.60.248] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:28 | |
| amiller_ | Muis, fluffypony, this is the craptology equivalent of the chicken talk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89K3j_Rsbco its a panel discussion on leakage, featuring DJB and moti yung and ian goldberg | 15:41 |
| fluffypony | *clicks* | 15:42 |
| -!- Sub|afk [~SubCreati@2601:8:a380:e29:bd4f:bfe6:decf:7f66] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:46 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:46 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 15:46 | |
| fluffypony | lol this is awesome | 15:47 |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 15:49 | |
| -!- Sub|afk is now known as SubCreative | 16:10 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@2601:8:a380:e29:bd4f:bfe6:decf:7f66] has quit [Changing host] | 16:10 | |
| -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:10 | |
| -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@c-69-254-243-205.hsd1.ks.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:22 | |
| -!- LeMiner [~LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:31 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:32 | |
| -!- adams_ [uid73416@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-txvgmlsetesxrfnm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:36 | |
| -!- LeMiner [~LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 16:40 | |
| -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:44 | |
| -!- LeMiner [~LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:46 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:49 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:50 | |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:58 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] | 16:59 | |
| kanzure | win 2 | 16:59 |
| kanzure | whoops :( | 16:59 |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 17:05 | |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:06 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 17:07 | |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 17:12 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vcxoersckftcfpjs] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 17:20 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 17:25 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 17:28 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:29 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:29 | |
| heath | petertodd: still wanting to play with your smartcolors library | 17:36 |
| heath | petertodd: good news! i might be able to annoy you about this in person next week! :P | 17:36 |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:45 | |
| -!- jhogan42 [~textual@216.171.220.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:47 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 17:49 | |
| -!- xerxerxer [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-72.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:50 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:50 | |
| -!- xerxerxer [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-72.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 17:50 | |
| -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] | 17:50 | |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] so, I think I have developed a method of testing whether recent block arrival times have been manipulated (either by user computers having an incorrect time set, or by dishonest manipulation) | 17:52 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] and from this method, it's (relatively) easy to develop a "momentum" term in difficulty adjustment | 17:52 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] so that if block arrival times are, say, 20% off of a true Poisson process, you end up with about 81.8% the difficulty adjustment that you would normally make by assuming no manipulation occurred | 17:53 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] with bitcoin, this isn't a huge deal because of the 2 week adjustment period, but for coins with rapid adjustment periods like Monero, this can prevent manipulation by multipools and whatnot | 17:53 |
| -!- xerxerxer [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-72.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:54 | |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] the real interesting part about this is that a Poisson process has the same sample variance and squared sample mean of inter-arrival times... | 17:54 |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 17:55 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:55 | |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] and blocks *should* arrive on the network in a Poisson process, but folks can issue whatever timestamp they like; the difference between squared sample mean and sample variance is a metric (not in the strict sense) between the observed process and a true poisson process with the target arrival rate | 17:55 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] so using the difference between these two, you can develop a momentum term in difficulty adjustment that says "okay, if the process doesn't exhibit a lot of poisson-icity, don't adjust difficulty very much because the observations have been manipulated; if the process is very poisson-ic (ha) then go ahead and adjust difficulty like normal | 17:57 |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:58 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 18:01 | |
| petertodd | heath: oh yeah, I did say that - added | 18:02 |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 18:05 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:05 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d80c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 18:05 | |
| -!- jhogan42 [~textual@216.171.220.202] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 18:07 | |
| -!- jhogan42 [~textual@216.171.220.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:15 | |
| -!- jhogan42 [~textual@216.171.220.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 18:20 | |
| -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:21 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:24 | |
| -!- vmatekol_ [~vmatekole@e180247220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:29 | |
| -!- moleccc [~molecular@e176103053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:38 | |
| -!- Mably_ [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 18:39 | |
| -!- molec [~molecular@e176103075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 18:41 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a766.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:42 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a766.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host] | 18:42 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:42 | |
| -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 18:44 | |
| -!- HM [~HM@81.4.101.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:10 | |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:12 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@172.56.38.221] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:12 | |
| -!- HM [~HM@81.4.101.225] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:14 | |
| -!- toffoo [~tof@unaffiliated/toffoo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:22 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:37 | |
| -!- prodatalab__ [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:a104:44a7:7861:135e] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 19:38 | |
| -!- kmels [~kmels@186.151.60.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 19:45 | |
| -!- hearn [~mike@172.56.38.221] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 19:47 | |
| -!- prodatalab__ [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:551d:4858:bd:7baa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:58 | |
| -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 20:00 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:01 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:18 | |
| -!- kmels [~kmels@186.151.60.248] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:31 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-147-70.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 20:35 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 20:47 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 20:54 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 21:18 | |
| -!- kmels [~kmels@186.151.60.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 21:22 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:41 | |
| heath | petertodd: thanks :) | 21:41 |
| kanzure | heath: no fair | 21:42 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 21:45 | |
| -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 21:45 | |
| -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] | 21:47 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 21:48 | |
| -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@mobile-166-171-251-120.mycingular.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:03 | |
| -!- kmels [~kmels@186.151.60.248] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:07 | |
| -!- xerxerxer [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-72.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 22:16 | |
| -!- x98gvyn [~vfbtgn@188.25.35.47] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:26 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-198-15-179.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 22:28 | |
| -!- nuke_ [~nuke@46-4-227.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:29 | |
| -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@mobile-166-171-251-120.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 22:40 | |
| -!- kmels [~kmels@186.151.60.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 22:46 | |
| -!- x98gvyn [~vfbtgn@188.25.35.47] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 22:48 | |
| --- Log closed Sun Mar 15 00:00:22 2015 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
