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| gmaxwell | Heh: thermal sidechannels, http://www.wired.com/2015/03/stealing-data-computers-using-heat/ | 09:49 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | in practice i imagine that ends up like http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/15/08/47/58/28310510.jpg | 09:52 |
| Adlai | this isn't really 'sidechannel' in the same sense as a timing attacks... just another way of communicating between already compromised systems | 09:55 |
| Adlai | the receiving computer can't detect anything that's not intentionally broadcast from the transmitter | 09:56 |
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| gmaxwell | Adlai: there is still actually a sidechannel there (it's just low enough capacity that its unlikely to be useful except intentionally). | 09:58 |
| fluffypony | for those who've poked around with Darkcoin, did I miss anything major? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zufu1/a_great_podcast_by_lets_talk_bitcoin_discussing/cpmvogy?context=3 | 09:59 |
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| fluffypony | (also my favourite comment in that thread is this one: "Maybe Bitcoin could implement some of the features, learn from what DRK is doing" - http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zufu1/a_great_podcast_by_lets_talk_bitcoin_discussing/cpmxf62) | 10:00 |
| gmaxwell | fluffypony: ask brisque when he's on, he knows more than most. | 10:01 |
| fluffypony | kk | 10:01 |
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| dabura667 | argh, I am going insane. | 10:22 |
| * fluffypony sends dabura667 to a shrink | 10:22 | |
| dabura667 | Anyone willing to look over my crappy BIP32 implementation in Python? | 10:23 |
| dabura667 | I can initialize ok, but deriving gives me incorrect values, and afaik I am throwing the right values into the hmac | 10:23 |
| dabura667 | but the correct privkey doesn't come out of the hmac | 10:23 |
| sipa | the outout of the hmac is not the key | 10:24 |
| dabura667 | I know | 10:24 |
| dabura667 | the left 32 bits | 10:24 |
| dabura667 | bytes | 10:24 |
| dabura667 | oh wait | 10:24 |
| dabura667 | OHHH YEAH | 10:24 |
| dabura667 | d'oh | 10:24 |
| sipa | you still need to add the parent privkey | 10:24 |
| dabura667 | thanks for reminding me | 10:24 |
| dabura667 | I was going insane here. I knew it was something stupid like that. thanks. | 10:24 |
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| andytoshi | dabura667: fyi, in future, #bitcoin-dev is a better channel for implementation questions | 10:28 |
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| dabura667 | ok thanks, I was under the impression it was only Core related | 10:29 |
| dabura667 | made a mental note | 10:29 |
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| fluffypony | http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/263.pdf | 11:37 |
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| nubbins` | fluffypony: dat misspelling of Colombia | 11:39 |
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| fluffypony | lol nubbins` I didn't even catch that | 11:42 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] this sounds a lot like the known sybil attacks | 11:52 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] thought it's neat that they quantitize them | 11:53 |
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| sipa | petertodd: until when are you in sf? | 14:06 |
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| fluffypony | lol andytoshi, now Reddit wants to know if we can implement adam3us' scheme now, like in the next week | 14:32 |
| fluffypony | gogogo | 14:32 |
| sipa | which scheme? | 14:33 |
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| fluffypony | sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=972541.0 | 14:33 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] what? why? it's nice but it's still O(n) | 14:34 |
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| fluffypony | tacotime: because logic. Remember that whole hoopla with the Microsoft Research paper on ring sigs? Every altcoin was going to implement "Chandran Signatures" and this would automagically make Monero meaningless | 14:36 |
| sipa | altcoins? implement? | 14:36 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] well... i mean, pretty zany things are recommended by the general public for bitcoins each day in r/bitcoin, most of which are insane or not very useful. | 14:36 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] heh. | 14:37 |
| fluffypony | sipa: this thing - https://www.stealth-coin.com/wp-content/uploads/Stealthsend_Whitepaper_brief0914.pdf | 14:38 |
| fluffypony | they have an entire page on Chandran signatures | 14:39 |
| fluffypony | they quickly backtracked on the idea after andytoshi and gmaxwell discussed it here | 14:39 |
| fluffypony | hilarity ensued | 14:40 |
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| adam3us | bbut its O(n) instead of O(2n) :) | 15:10 |
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| andytoshi | fluffypony: lol, oh well. sometimes reddit pattern-matches to useful related research.. | 15:15 |
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| adam3us | fluffypony: i had looked at the chandran et al paper. problem i have is its based on weil pairing and maybe some other assumptions. in the direction of but not as far as snark novel construction risk | 15:20 |
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| fluffypony | and it requires a trusted setup | 15:23 |
| fluffypony | plus the verification time would be horrendous (it's bad enough in Monero as it is) | 15:23 |
| gmaxwell | the verification time was linear in the ring size, IIRC. | 15:24 |
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| gmaxwell | fluffypony: I dunno if its changed but the implementation in monero I think was pretty performance braindamaged before. | 15:25 |
| andytoshi | how practical (and plausibly secure) are zk accumulators? | 15:25 |
| fluffypony | gmaxwell: nothing's changed, we still sigverify on one thread because logic | 15:26 |
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| * fluffypony sighs at the bits of the codebase nobody wants to touch | 15:26 | |
| adam3us | gmaxwell: that (verification time O(n) ) maybe hard to avoid short of snarks. it seems to me that you need to admit the possibility with fresh pseudo randomness that any signer could've signed and to prevent existential forgery so you need to bind all those values together so that there is at least one non-existential forgery | 15:26 |
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| gmaxwell | the forgery needs only be computationally infeasable though... so it's not obvious to me that the O(n) can't fundimentally be amoritized (and indeed the snark over a hash tree proof does that). | 15:28 |
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| adam3us | gmaxwell: yeah maybe. just not with the ideas i explored so far :) my criteria were to avoid any novel crypto though so thats constraining perhaps. | 15:33 |
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| amiller | andytoshi, by zk accumulators, you mean the RSA ones that zerocoin uses? | 15:44 |
| andytoshi | amiller: yeah, a quick search suggests there aren't others out there | 15:44 |
| amiller | there are, there are a) accumulators from generic snarks like zerocash uses, there are b) ones using bilinear groups but they have kind of worse setup costs | 15:45 |
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| andytoshi | oh ok, i saw "strong RSA" in the title and thought they might've been number theoretic :/ | 15:46 |
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| petertodd | sipa: friday for sure, but maybe sooner - don't know yet | 15:46 |
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| sipa | ah, i'm coming to sf on wednesday | 15:46 |
| amiller | andytoshi, i mean there are at least three kinds of accumulators, a) like in zerocash, b) using bilinear groups, c) like in zerocoin | 15:46 |
| amiller | the last one is based on strong RSA assumption | 15:46 |
| petertodd | sipa: cool, that's a maybe - not sure I'm in sf wed/thu/fri yet | 15:47 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: the rsa like ones in theory can work in any additive cyclic group group with unknown order. | 15:47 |
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| amiller | andytoshi, this is the main citation for the RSA one, which zerocoin basically uses in tact http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-45708-9_5#page-1 | 15:50 |
| amiller | gmaxwell, that surprises me, you can do some kinds of zero knowledge proofs in cyclic group groups with unknown order but not everything you need for a zk accumulator.. | 15:51 |
| andytoshi | ok, thx for the help guys. my usecase fell apart when i looked at it too closely but i'll keep this in mind.. | 15:51 |
| adam3us | speaking of RSA accumulators this shoup et al paper http://www.shoup.net/papers/subring.pdf has fixed size ring signature based on some small extension to the benaloh accumulator. but its not linkable. | 15:55 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: could just be confirmation bias on my part. I don't off the top of my head have an argument to support that claim in a strong sense; but it was my cached result. | 15:58 |
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| amiller | gmaxwell, okay. the rsa accumulator is a little wonky, like you can only accumulate prime numbers | 15:59 |
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| amiller | zerocoin gets around that by just redrawing commitments over and over again until the commitment value iteslf is literally a prime number | 16:00 |
| gmaxwell | yea, well you're trying to show knoweldge of a N-th root. | 16:00 |
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| andytoshi | adam3us: the paper you posted uses an accumulator based on RSA; i guess there is a trusted party who knows the factorization of the modulus? so for cryptocurrency we'd need to use a UFO? | 17:02 |
| andytoshi | adam3us: (or just take the zerocoin accumulator and put that into the paper's result i guess) | 17:03 |
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| amiller | andytoshi, all accumulators using RSA have that, yeah, including the zerocoin one | 17:20 |
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| andytoshi | amiller: but is it true that you can get around it by using UFOs? | 17:21 |
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| amiller | im pretty sure, yeah. i'm not 100% that everything that's defined for an RSA modulus sitll works with an RSA ufo but i'd be surprised if anything doesnt. | 17:23 |
| amiller | or you can do a multiparty setup ceremony | 17:23 |
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| amiller | also i think you can reuse RSA moduli across projects since they dont have any other 'special' properties other than being sufficiently big, i dont think, as opposed to generating the setup for a snark which has to be done again for every new 'circuit' | 17:24 |
| andytoshi | hmmm maybe i could find one in a famous dead person's gpg key :P | 17:27 |
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| gmaxwell | andytoshi: product of US gov and china gov 2048 bit ssl cert keys. | 20:12 |
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| bramc | There's going to be a talk on stellar http://forum.stanford.edu//events/2015davidmarzieresinfo.php | 20:33 |
| kanzure | "... the first provably safe federated Byzantine agreement protocol. Unlike prior Byzantine agreement protocols, which presuppose unanimous agreement on system membership, a federated protocol allows the set of participating organizations to grow organically over time. " | 20:34 |
| kanzure | is there a strong reason for me to be interested in federated consensus | 20:34 |
| bramc | Looks like the goal is to allow the set of consensus servers to vote in new consensus servers | 20:34 |
| bramc | What is 'federated consensus'? | 20:35 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: is it just the trivial thing where you assume that the earlier keys are never compromised and never turn dishonest? so you're just following a sequence there? if so.. thats not terribly interesting. (well it's what the fedpeg stuff does too, but I wouldn't describe that as a fundimental property of the consensus system unless it didn't need assumptions like those) | 20:37 |
| bramc | kanzure, I mean, I understand 'we appointed this set of consensus servers and they can vote in new consensus servers and as long as never more than X% of the peers participated in a conspiracy everything is still on the up and up' | 20:37 |
| kanzure | i don't know the details of their scheme; i'm not sure i can think of any formulation of federated that makes me interested in this. | 20:39 |
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| gmaxwell | so what happens if the initial set is eventually completely replaced and then turns evil, will they be able to decieve (and thus split the network) new users / users who were offline for a bit? | 20:40 |
| gmaxwell | because if so, well okay, but thats not super interesting (you just normally put the membership under the consensus just like any other property.) | 20:40 |
| gmaxwell | If not, then it's very interesting (and probably wrong. :) ) | 20:41 |
| bramc | These things are inherently very fragile: If too many peers leave at once, it just breaks | 20:41 |
| kanzure | i think this is the wrong direction to talk about. instead of talking about whatever their scheme is, it would be better to think of properties that a "federated" system should have, and then go from there. then evaluate their design against that. | 20:41 |
| kanzure | but again, a federated design is somewhat uninteresting to me.... | 20:41 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, You can use timestamping/proofs of time to ensure that peers need to start their conspiracy early and can't retroactively make it later | 20:41 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: then you need another consensus; yo dawg. | 20:42 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: well they don't 'leave at once' if its not ~really~ a p2p system in the sense we use on the internet. E.g. if it's bank2bank, they aren't going to leave unless the system has already become uninteresting to them for other reasons... so there are cases where its more useful than others. | 20:42 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: I agree that you can do things like use any scheme that would have by itself formed a workable consensus system to prevent reversal; though if you were willing to depend on that, why not cut out the federation? (answer: well there can still be value; but its certantly more complex to reason about) | 20:43 |
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| bramc | gmaxwell, If it's really a centralized system which just rolls its keys slowly over time that can certainly work. Also not all that interesting. | 20:44 |
| gmaxwell | Thats what I was asking; I think thats not interesting, also things like "use a POW blockchain to prevent rollback" is not terribly interesting (yes you can do that, duh, but what does it get you) unless the approach is especially novel. | 20:46 |
| gmaxwell | I'm a big fan of FS/NIFS ((non-interactive) forward security). I think the _obvious_ thing to do for any kind of timestamper (like a consensus signer) is to actually rotate the keys with every timestep and destroy the old ones, so even a physical compromise cannot make you split the consensus before the compromise point. | 20:48 |
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| bramc | Trivially, you can make the output of each consensus can include the list of authorities for the next consensus | 20:48 |
| gmaxwell | Exactly. | 20:48 |
| bramc | So yeah, all the authorities can rotate their key each turn on principle, and there's no reason for the consensus agreement itself to give their 'identities', just a list of keys | 20:50 |
| gmaxwell | or any other threshold signature pubkey. e.g. it can just be one of many compact threshold signature schemes. The fact that there is a threshold can just be a property of the particular pubkey in use. | 20:52 |
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| bramc | Schnorr signatures for the win, only one pubkey necessary :-) | 20:53 |
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| bramc | I wish that were a joke | 20:53 |
| kanzure | the actual agreement between a set of servers in a federated scheme is just not an actual problem as far as i can tell | 20:53 |
| kanzure | and it confuses me why this would be considered byzantine by them | 20:53 |
| bramc | Because if there's nothing byzantine it isn't a cryptocurrency | 20:56 |
| bramc | But, umm, in all seriousness no matter how complex the agreement protocol it should be able to provide a schnorr pubkey for the next block in each block. Boom, any amount of iteration on the agreement protocol you want is possible. | 20:57 |
| gmaxwell | well it's 'byzantine' in that a sub-threshold of the specified, identified participants at any time can be byzantine. | 20:58 |
| gmaxwell | But if it is really that the defintion has to be contorted around the membership changes. | 20:59 |
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| gmaxwell | in any case, if anyone finds out otherwise, lemme know! | 21:02 |
| bramc | Well, I have my big question to ask now, I'm planning on going to the talk, although it isn't happening for a month | 21:05 |
| bramc | Is anybody going to the cryptocurrency workshop going on at stanford right now? | 21:06 |
| kanzure | there was an email sent out to the xgbtc list, i asked for a livestream, but nope no linkz | 21:06 |
| gmaxwell | not sure about my schedule a month out; kinda hard to justify going without a better basis on it being interesting. :) maybe. | 21:08 |
| gmaxwell | (I'm at the IETF in dallas right now) | 21:08 |
| kanzure | ietf has a physical place? | 21:09 |
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| bramc | ietf definitely has a space in san francisco | 21:11 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, It's part of a general security workshop http://forum.stanford.edu//events/2015security.php | 21:12 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: IETF meetings are held three times a year at wandering locations in rotating geographies. It's in dallas this time. | 21:15 |
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| phantomcircuit | kanzure, a federated system in which you can vote in new signers seems like a pretty hilariously bad idea | 22:00 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, It's better than a single signing key. Although as we were just discussing, a single signing key can be collaboratively generated, so there's no clear need for the blockchain format itself to contain anything other than a single signing key per block | 22:02 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, a federated system is reasonable | 22:03 |
| phantomcircuit | a federated system in which you try to implement dynamic membership? | 22:03 |
| phantomcircuit | not so much | 22:03 |
| bramc | Not sure what's wrong with it, you can hand off your identity to somebody else unilaterally anyway | 22:04 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, if the original keys are compromised the set of signers can be changed after the fact | 22:05 |
| phantomcircuit | although i see now gmaxwell suggested constant rotation and key destruction | 22:05 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramc, hmm actually | 22:18 |
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| bramc | Yeah, rotate keys and destroy every block. Also use a schnorr signature so you can do multiparty key generation without having to gunk up the blockchain with the details | 22:18 |
| phantomcircuit | i guess you could build a DMMS on top of a federated system | 22:18 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramc, still seems like asking for trouble though | 22:21 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, Only if you make the claim that it's highly distributed like bitcoin is. If you're more realistic in your claims it's fine | 22:22 |
| phantomcircuit | actually know what i completely retract my previous statement | 22:24 |
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| heath | anyone else at the stanford blockchain conference? | 22:37 |
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| bramc | heath, Not I. Anything interesting going on? | 23:16 |
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