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| adam3us | yet another proof of stake whitepaper claims to fix nothing at stake etc. http://www.neucoin.org/en/whitepaper/download seems quite well written and to quote the critiques of PoS, but I am not sure if it actually solves anything. | 06:25 |
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| tromp | "A plugin is needed to dispolay this content" :( | 06:48 |
| adam3us | i am thinking the flaw is the assumption that the attacker can only grind 64-bits of stake modifier. i would think the attacker can expand the stake modifier to match his hashrate simply by going backwards in time or varying any inputs that may affect it (like permuting transactions or generating dummy transactions to permute) | 06:49 |
| adam3us | tromp: i think its pdf | 06:49 |
| adam3us | tromp: file NeuCoin_White_Paper-March_25th.pdf | 06:50 |
| fluffypony | lol adam3us, I just had that same discussion | 06:50 |
| adam3us | NeuCoin_White_Paper-March_25th.pdf: PDF document, version 1.5 | 06:50 |
| kanzure | adam3us: they claim that proof-of-work is wasteful. i don't think they know why it is wasteful. | 06:50 |
| fluffypony | they have an entire section dedicated to preventing stake grinding | 06:50 |
| fluffypony | except that they don't actually prevent it | 06:50 |
| fluffypony | kanzure: because it supports their claim that "all criticisms of PoS are political" | 06:50 |
| tromp | thx; got it | 06:51 |
| fluffypony | just like "all criticisms of Darkcoin come from the competition" so therefore | 06:51 |
| kanzure | ah yes, the "outside review is biased" argument :-) | 06:51 |
| fluffypony | yip, shoot the messenger :-P | 06:52 |
| adam3us | nicely written paper though eh? sounds exhaustive. i was reading mainly for the amusement of how many minutes to spot the break. had to skim a lot of exhaustive/authoritative sounding stuff to find the spot where it fails. | 06:52 |
| fluffypony | it is much better written than most | 06:52 |
| fluffypony | although I wish they didn't spend so much of it complaining about PoW | 06:52 |
| kanzure | to be fair, proof-of-stake criticisms /are/ political. i am politically interested in not participating in broken things. | 06:53 |
| adam3us | fluffypony: its a little accusative (repeated claims of what PoS detractors think) but otherwise well written | 06:53 |
| kanzure | figure 1 is a whole wad of anti-intellectualism. "this data center generates numbers!!!" | 06:54 |
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| adam3us | kanzure: i guess you could make similar statements "this gold mine digs up little bits of inherently worthless metal". or "this hsbc tower in singapore is full of people adding friction to payments" etc | 06:57 |
| kanzure | haha the second one :-) | 06:57 |
| kanzure | "this skyscraper is full of dirty monkey men touching dollar bills with their greasy dirty fingers and adding friction to payments" | 06:58 |
| fluffypony | tsk tsk | 06:58 |
| adam3us | i skipped to section 3 guided by the contents page as i was going for skim & minutes to break | 06:59 |
| adam3us | actually they are not very clear about how PoS works in peercoin nor neucoin. when they say stake modifier, does that apply to future stake wins after the min age? if so more directly i dont see why anyone would broadcast a failed grind | 07:00 |
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| AdrianG_ | adam3us: are there any workable PoS designs yet | 07:06 |
| AdrianG_ | or at least something with promise | 07:06 |
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| andytoshi | AdrianG_: this is the first one i've heard of that even acknowledges that PoS is difficult | 07:37 |
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| andytoshi | adam3us: the discussion on page 14 and 15 of peercoin is really confused. as usual they conflate blocktime with clocktime and make wrong/incoherent statements because of it. then this "stake modifier" discussion appears to suggest sending information backward in time (which time? well you can't do this with clocktime because of relativity, and can't do it with blocktime because blocks commit to past | 07:48 |
| andytoshi | blocks, so it doesn't matter) | 07:48 |
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| tromp | "The mechanics of generating the stake modifier parameter are complex." It should be expected to be sufficiently complex to elude the designer's ability to see how it could be attacked... | 08:05 |
| andytoshi | yeah, i designed a system with exactly the properties they're claiming when trying to evade the first pos.pdf, then threw it out because it didn't work. apparently i should've obfuscated then marketed it.. | 08:10 |
| andytoshi | basically you can fiddle around and make stake-grinding N times as hard by making your stake modifier take N times as long to validate and be N times as big, and requiring forgers to forge N blocks at a time | 08:11 |
| * fluffypony can't wait for andytoshi's altcoin | 08:11 | |
| andytoshi | which is thoroughly unhelpful unless your system was already ridiculously costly to run; if honest parties are doing almost no computation then a dishonest one can do billions of times as much as that | 08:12 |
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| justanotheruser | Perhaps they can come up with a stake modifier that has complexity such that the hours spent to reverse engineering grow it exponentially with the time spent designing it. | 08:18 |
| justanotheruser | s/grow it/it grow/ | 08:19 |
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| helo | justanotheruser: trapdoor design? | 08:21 |
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| justanotheruser | trapdoor software complexity :P | 08:21 |
| fluffypony | lol | 08:21 |
| helo | i think we have that here where i work o.o | 08:22 |
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| gmaxwell | HOT DAMN. Microsoft Z3 theorem prover is now MIT licensed! (this has come up in here before) | 13:47 |
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| adam3us | well someone can apparently earn some neocoins by pointing out that neocoin PoS is broken. hmm does that is kind of self-sabotaging bounty model :) | 13:51 |
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| tromp | 1 beeeeeeeeeelllion neocoin offered for a proof that neocoin is worthless... | 13:54 |
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| kanzure | we still need mental rsa arithematic | 14:04 |
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| MRL-Relay | [surae] adam3us, they won't ever pay out, because they "wrote a whitepaper" that "discredits all criticisms of PoS." And so, consequently, every time you criticize that paper, you're criticizing PoS and by the definition of the whitepaper, they've discredited you. They never have to pay out because they perpetually have their fingers in their ears | 14:11 |
| fluffypony | SHUTUP SURAE, YOU'RE JUST A BITCOIN ADVOCATE, POW IS DEAD AND POS IS THE FUTURE | 14:12 |
| * fluffypony sticks fingers in ears | 14:12 | |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] wow | 14:12 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] not the response I was expecting. :P | 14:12 |
| fluffypony | I think every whitepaper should have pictures of mining farms in it | 14:13 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] i think every whitepaper should be scratch-n-sniff | 14:13 |
| fluffypony | adam3us: what was your time to break, btw? | 14:13 |
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| * Adlai liked the paycoin whitepaper, full of zero-day buzzwords | 14:15 | |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: zero-day buzzwords? https://archive.org/details/EtherealVerses | 14:17 |
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| MRL-Relay | [surae] what's that one website that has a repository of academic-ish bitcoin articles? | 14:18 |
| prufer | i am unsure | 14:18 |
| prufer | what's "MRL-relay?" | 14:18 |
| Adlai | bitcoinobituaries.com | 14:18 |
| fluffypony | prufer: relay to the Monero Research Lab | 14:18 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] Monero Research Lab | 14:18 |
| Adlai | gmaxwell: nice, i initially misparsed the author's name as another with the same initials | 14:19 |
| prufer | oh. weird. haven't seen that in IRC before... | 14:19 |
| Adlai | might not be accidental | 14:19 |
| gmaxwell | Adlai: it was linked in here previously. | 14:20 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] that bitcoinobituaries is interesting... didn't the Fed come out with a bitcoin paper recently? like over christmas or something | 14:20 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] they studied the inter-day volatility of bitcoin and actually found it was lower than other currenciess | 14:21 |
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| MRL-Relay | [surae] it's just that you'll have a sudden and volatile price fluctuation, and then it'll stay "unusually stable" for a few weeks, then move again | 14:21 |
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| Adlai | surae, there was a fed research paper which calculated the price variance as bounded when measured relative to the price: http://www.federalreserve.gov/econresdata/feds/2014/files/2014104pap.pdf | 14:26 |
| Adlai | (it looks at several things, that's just one of them) | 14:26 |
| gmaxwell | uh. price ... relative to ... price should have a variance of 0. :P | 14:26 |
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| adam3us | fluffypony i am not sure 10mins maybe… i was just reading reading until i could find the obvious break where the grind opportunity would fail to be prevented. it wasnt like it took any analysis i just had to read what they were saying , its was more like insta break once i had the offending sentence :) | 14:28 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] gmaxwell price/price will have variance of zero. but will var(var(price)/price) = 0? almost certainly not | 14:29 |
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| MRL-Relay | [surae] Adlai thats the one I was looking for | 14:36 |
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| nsh | it's the variance with respect to PriceWaterhouseCooper that matters | 14:41 |
| MRL-Relay | [surae] var(var(var(priceBTC)/priceOil)/priceBTC)/var(priceOil) = ? | 14:42 |
| Adlai | the one that keeps me up at night: TBTC/BTC | 14:43 |
| fluffypony | Adlai: don't invoke that name in vain | 14:44 |
| Adlai | relax, i'm just talking about testnet! it should come with a label: "CAUTION: Worthless when valued" | 14:44 |
| justanotheruser | I still don't know what a TBTC is | 14:45 |
| justanotheruser | either a tonal coin or a testnet coin though | 14:46 |
| Adlai | yes. | 14:46 |
| justanotheruser | probably could google it, but its more fun to roll the dice and see which one I bought | 14:46 |
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| gmaxwell | what if its a tonal testnet coin? | 14:49 |
| nsh | ingrowing tonal testnet coins are the worst | 14:50 |
| fluffypony | gmaxwell: don't talk about TTs, there are kids around | 14:51 |
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| nubbins` | ha | 14:56 |
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| helo | hmm... what's this "bitcoin lightning network" stuff? | 15:06 |
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| Adlai | a microtransactions protocol | 15:07 |
| adam3us | its an extension to payment channel hubs | 15:07 |
| fluffypony | check the logs for lightning.network, helo | 15:08 |
| helo | ahh, my history is long, but apparently not long enough | 15:08 |
| fluffypony | don't worry | 15:08 |
| helo | i thought it must not have been mentioned... i need to disable joins/parts | 15:08 |
| fluffypony | inetwebz to the rescue | 15:08 |
| helo | yeah, i have the pdf | 15:08 |
| petertodd | helo: I wrote up a semi-review of it for a coindesk journalist last night: http://0bin.net/paste/MY6eTIzpjd5N8pHl#5IxELcd7nlnW2Swt0JGFe86rqMxiwx1MBnm2gTJQm7G | 15:08 |
| fluffypony | https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/ | 15:08 |
| helo | petertodd: ahh, i just read the coindesk journalist's article :) | 15:09 |
| petertodd | helo: there you go :) | 15:09 |
| fluffypony | petertodd: are you going to WEBTCExpo in Amsterdam in May? | 15:09 |
| petertodd | fluffypony: well, no-one's offered to pay expenses yet... :) | 15:09 |
| adam3us | there's a youtube video of lightning presented at an sf local bitcoin meetup | 15:09 |
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| fluffypony | petertodd: complain to middle management! | 15:10 |
| adam3us | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zVzw912wPo | 15:10 |
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| petertodd | fluffypony: heh, if I accepted all the invites I get I'd be broke(r) | 15:10 |
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| petertodd | helo: hmm... actually come to think of it I probably should give journalists the standard disclaimer that I may publish my communications with them unless agreed otherwise :) | 15:26 |
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| phantomcircuit | petertodd, they'll publish anything you say regardless of agreements not to | 15:36 |
| phantomcircuit | so why shouldn't you? | 15:36 |
| petertodd | phantomcircuit: because I have higher ethical standards of course :P | 15:38 |
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| nsh | you haven't been journalism't until you've been misquoted on the front-page of a national broadsheet newspaper after explicitly telling the correspondent that you had no comment and nothing you say to [them] should be considered on the record | 16:33 |
| nsh | *front page | 16:33 |
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| gmaxwell | nsh: yea, been there. (well; not front page of the broad sheets; but I've absolutely been misquoted on a supposidly off the record conversation: most journalists are scum). | 16:34 |
| * nsh nods | 16:34 | |
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| MRL-Relay | [smooth] nsh: if they misquoted you then they werent publishing what you said :) | 18:15 |
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| nsh | they published some of the things i said, and some of the (ridiculous) things they misheard / misunderstood :) | 18:16 |
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