2015-03-30.log

--- Log opened Mon Mar 30 00:00:37 2015
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fluffyponymoa: don't attribute to mistake what you can attribute to stupidity (re: blockthingys)01:09
fluffyponyI also don't get his assertion, he speaks about core/protocol dev and then jumps to talking about Jan Moller as an example of a dev who has been "bought"...except Jan Moller hasn't contribute anything to core?01:13
fluffyponybizarre reductionist arguments01:14
moanor Cody Wilson afaik, it's all a pretty hodge-podge amalgam of half-ideas ... unfortunately his initial point that private companies building on top of bitcoin could contribute more back to core dev is worth making.01:18
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fluffyponymoa: so basically he's decide how Bitcoin should be developed, and any deviation from that singular vision is clearly in violation of his imaginary perfect scenario01:37
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nshandy-logbot, pointer?03:19
andy-logbotSee http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/2015-03-30.html03:19
nsh(stillb0rk)03:19
fluffyponynsh: what's it supposed to do?03:20
nshpoint to the current entry in the logs (last line anchor), in theory03:20
fluffyponyoic03:20
nshwhich would be this: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2015-03-30/?msg=35378024&page=303:20
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rustyFeedback welcome: http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=45003:48
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fluffyponynice rusty03:53
fluffyponythat is significantly easier for me to parse03:53
rustyfluffypony: I ambitiously promised more to come... that's basically just 3.2 and part of 3.3 from the paper.03:54
fluffyponyI noticed03:54
fluffyponyI'm excited to read the next bi03:54
fluffypony*bit03:54
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rustyfluffypony: Want to write it for me? :)03:56
fluffyponyI don't mind writing it *with* you :-P03:57
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rustyfluffypony: But... *I'm* only writing it because I want to read it!  Reading the paper is *hard*!03:58
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fluffyponycryptography, in general, is hard...it just depends on if we're talking about discrete logarithm hardness or integer factorisation hardness04:00
* fluffypony makes joke04:00
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rustyfluffypony: I promise you I laughed, but not provably.04:03
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instagibbsrusty: nice writeup06:01
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kanzure.title06:18
yoleauxLightning Networks Part I: Revocable Transactions - Rusty Russell's Coding Blog06:18
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kanzure"Breakthrough silicon scanning discovers backdoor in military chip" https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sps32/ches2012-backdoor.pdf06:21
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kanzure(2012)06:21
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kanzure"Malicious SHA-1" https://malicioussha1.github.io/06:25
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fluffyponyoh Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/30t3k4/proofofstake_is_more_decentralized_efficient_and/08:51
fluffyponythey've now suckered jgarzik into the debate08:51
jgarzikfluffypony, I'm just a drive-by commenter, rather than a debater ;p08:52
fluffyponylol08:53
jgarzikfluffypony, as a public service I try to at least speak up and provide "this paper is bullshit" counter08:53
jgarzikmaybe that is too egotistical ;p08:53
fluffyponyno I think it's necessary08:53
fluffyponyit's just that they have an answer for everything08:53
fluffyponythis Neucoin crowd seem to have doomed themselves by alienating PoS supporters as well, they've apparently cherry-picked bits from NuBits and Blackcoin without attributing it to them08:55
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MRL-Relay[tacotime] are we still talking about neucoin09:00
MRL-Relay[tacotime] oh, they're still posting in r/bitcoin.09:01
fluffyponyyes09:01
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fluffypony"The main purpose of PoS is not distribution. It's first and foremost an consensus mechanism. PoS coins can (and have: Peercoin, Blackcoin etc) use PoW as a distribution mechanism. The reason we didn't do it is we believe PoS allows to design a smarter distribution mechanism"09:15
* fluffypony rolls eyes09:15
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gmaxwell0_o09:19
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kanzurejgarzik: "Separate of powers" -> "Separation of powers"09:22
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jgarzikkanzure, fixed09:25
kanzurejgarzik: notfixed http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/30t3k4/proofofstake_is_more_decentralized_efficient_and/cpvl80r09:26
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jgarzikkanzure, fixed for me, click reload.  the other comment is not authored by me.09:28
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kanzureah i forgot their page caching rules. yes, the individual link works.09:29
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satwoall the noise created by the altcoin/scamcoin scene may actually serve a positive, if unintended, purpose: keeping potential scammers and unscrupulous types from focusing their energy on what really matters in the long run (bitcoin and, I think, cryptonote/monero)09:35
Chillumwithout scammers the bitcoin community would be in a terribly insecure state09:36
Chillumconsider it field hardening of the protocol and best practices09:36
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satwogood point.09:37
DrGridAnd the two are totally not Altcoins, lol! Choose your way either you're a maximalist or nothing.09:37
satwoMonero is not an altcoin, it is a fundamentally different protocol.09:37
fluffyponywe're veering into #bitcoin territory, folks...09:39
kanzureyes09:39
satwosorry, that's my fault... not really sure where to have those types of discussions09:39
kanzurein #bitcoin09:39
satwo(i gathered that :))09:39
satwobut thanks for the heads up09:40
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andytoshi"The author even admits in his own conclusion: “there is no rigorous argument that it is impossible to obtain a distributed consensus without provably consuming some resource outside the system.”" what a dumbass, wasting time and energy on burden of correctness11:03
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andytoshi(for those missing context, i am faceteously calling myself a dumbass -- i don't mean to make this channel seem unfriendly :))11:11
fluffyponyI saw that jibe11:13
fluffyponyand decided not to mention it11:13
Taekthat would be a nice proof to have though - is anyone working on building one?11:14
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andytoshiTaek: it's really hard, try to even formalize the claim11:21
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gmaxwellTaek: those kinds of proofs usually are not so useful, they're often either circular or so narroly defined so as to be meaningless.11:22
gmaxwellE.g.  Assuming X, Y, Z you can't achieve exactly R, Q, N.  They're not totally worthless because they can help focus your thinking when you're trying to do precisely the impossible thing. But usually the answer is to change the assumptions or deliverables slightly.11:23
andytoshiANN: for anyone interested in my school situation, i just sent an email to my supervisor in the CS department at UT saying that i'm leaving to return to the math dept. rather than doing academic crypto i'll be doing something like network information theory (not that i'll stop doing actual crypto here ofc :) the academic stuff was entirely a distraction from that anyway). the main reason is that11:24
andytoshiswitching departments would require me to do an extra couple years of coursework, which would be a thorough waste of my time (e.g. i'd have to do a compilers course, a database course, etc, because i don't have a CS degree). this also prevents me from joining the CS dept at any other schools; i am open to joining the math dept somewhere else if i could do more cryptographic work, but it's not a11:24
andytoshistrong desire11:24
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andytoshiTaek: i think i made the statement much more concrete and useful in the new pos.pdf; there were some things i was thinking about really unclearly that i was able to figure out11:25
andytoshie.g. the realization that pos can (in principle and practice) give you a centralized consensus if the initial stakeholder always prevents others from joining. before i sorta assumed that consensus would always fail11:25
andytoshiand how pos related to this fuzzy "DMMS" concept in my head; i thought pos was a broken dmms but now i think it's just totally different and trying to attack it for being a bad dmms would be a strawman11:26
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fluffyponyandytoshi: would there be any value in the "learnings" from the extra few years, or is it too tangential to bother?11:29
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andytoshifluffypony: no, zero value11:31
fluffyponyyeah I figured11:31
fluffyponynone of the core MRL guys are in comp sci, they're all pure maths11:31
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andytoshifluffypony: in the last six years the "good" courses i've taken required nothing at all from me; the bad ones (like these) would involve a lot of gruntwork. but i have never attended lecture and never learned anything from them, they are always just in the way of my actual learning11:32
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fluffyponyomg11:39
fluffyponyno11:39
* fluffypony bangs head into wall11:39
fluffyponyhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.msg10932356#msg1093235611:39
fluffypony"it's more like math hasn't got to the stage where it can describe complex systems, i.e. chaotic systems, e.g. weather, turbulence, market behaviour.  That's not a 'human element', it's a 'chaotic element'.  Cryptography's purpose is to obscure information for the purpose of un-obscuring it later.  Which is essential for underpinnings of mechanics of crypto currency.  But when you want to start to lose information like you do with11:39
fluffypony anonymity, (in my opinion) it's not the best suited way.  Because it's essentially reversible with the right tools (because the information is confined in one place, it security relies on your ability to decode it)."11:39
fluffyponysorry, andytoshi, you may as well give up now. math just hasn't got to the stage where it can describe complex systems like MasterNodes11:40
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fluffyponypretty much all you can do with maths is like your bill at the restaurant and calculate the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow11:41
andytoshifluffypony: ya, i am gonna type a response to that at some point11:41
andytoshihe PM'd me asking me to11:41
andytoshithis "cryptography is not appropriate for hiding information" thesis is bizarre11:42
fluffypony"masternodes 'depend on humans for security' in the same way that bitcoin fullnodes 'depend on humans for security' dude.  It's a misapplication of the concept of trustless operation."11:42
fluffyponyI feel like I'm watching a bunch of 3rd graders performing open-heart surgery11:43
fluffyponymaybe they even recognise some of the surgical instruments from TV, but they have no clue what they are doing11:43
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andytoshithat's a good analogy. i'm not sure if i should keep touching it11:44
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bramcHey everybody, I have questions/thoughts about this post: https://medium.com/@octskyward/replace-by-fee-43edd9a1dd6d11:51
bramcThe author seems to be saying that 0conf is important central functionality, which I think is a little nutty, but can buy the argument that 0conf is something which people are likely to do anyway so you shouldn't try to break it.11:52
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bramcWhich leads to the question of why you can't have a totally reasonable middle ground: Why not allow for replace-by-fee, but only for transactions with the same inputs and outputs with the same unlock scripts? What's wrong with tacking on child pays when you don't have scorched earth?11:54
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bramcI'm guessing that 'scorched earth' here refers to the very specific practice of a peer throwing out an unconfirmed transaction when a new one with the same input and a different output but a higher transaction fee shows up.11:54
instagibbsI think a lot of e-ink is wasted on scorched earth, per se. Either you believe the steady state will be RBF, or not. You can't force miners to run policy like that.11:55
bramcBut that only matters if the unlock script has changed, which isn't wanted for the fee increasing functionality anyway11:55
bramcinstagibbs, Yes there's a large amount of people needing to give up on 0conf already, but there's a practical question of what you can get into the standard codebase today, and my proposed middle ground seems like it should be acceptable to everybody.11:57
sipabramc: allowing limited replacement was the original design11:57
sipaof bitcoin11:57
bramcsipa, Do peers currently support limited replacement?11:57
sipano11:57
sipait was disabled years ago11:57
bramcUh... why?11:57
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sipait complicates wallet design11:58
instagibbswhat did limited replacement do? Tack on an additional input/output pair?11:58
bramcPeople should fix the damn wallets anyway :-P11:58
bramcchild pays should work fine but doubles transaction size, which is a serous problem.11:58
sipa(cpfp and rbf also requre wallet complication)11:58
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bramcsipa, The current flame war doesn't seem to be about wallet design, it seems to be about 0conf12:00
sipayes12:00
sipaoh, the limited replacement functionality was only for nonfinal transactions12:00
bramcWhat does 'nonfinal' mean?12:01
sipawhich were a huge dos attack surface12:01
sipanonfinal == cannot go into the blockchain yet12:01
bramcThat sounds backwards12:01
sipathrough locktime and other means12:01
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bramcYou want limited replacement for transactions which aren't going through because their fees are too low, those are by definition not nonfinal12:02
sipathe original replacement feature was for certain contracts12:04
sipanot for postfacto fee increases12:04
bramcOkay, let's assume that the original replacement feature is long gone and irrelevant12:04
sipaokay12:04
sipacpfp is enough for fee increases12:05
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dgenr8bramc: in your proposal, could the replacement pay more to output 0, but an overcompensatingly less to output 1, to get to net higher fee?  If so I could rip somebody off.12:06
bramcsipa, What is cpfp an acronym for?12:06
instagibbschild pays12:06
bramcdgenr8, I'm proposing requiring that the output script(s) have to be the same12:07
dgenr8i'm only changing the amounts12:07
bramcdgenr8, Oh sorry, amounts should have to be the same as well12:07
dgenr8then you have to add inputs to raise the fee12:08
bramcoh wait, but then you have to decide whose amount goes down when the transaction fee goes up. That's an interesting question12:08
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bramcLet's say that the rule is that outputs can only go down12:08
bramcbbiab, lunch12:08
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bramcOkay, more thoughts: It should be okay for a new transaction to add both new inputs and new outputs, as long the old outputs are kept to their same level.13:28
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bramcLowering output has the problem that you can spitefully destroy13:30
bramcActually, dumb question: Is there a way with cpfp for a child transaction to depend on a parent transaction even without spending its outputs in any way?13:31
@gwillen... that's actually a really interesting question13:33
bramcThat would get around some (most?) of the bloat problems of cpfp by allowing aggregation of a whole bunch of smaller transactions to be paid for by a bigger one with a consolidated fee without all that much blowup13:33
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bramcIt would be trivial to add an extension to support that13:35
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bramcOP_HAS_BEEN_COMMITTED_VERIFY13:35
gmaxwellbramc: yea, that kind of replacement has been discussed before. to prevent DOS you really want to also demand the fee goes up by some reasonable quanta at each step.13:36
bramcAlso interesting to design a lottery protocol so one of a set of parents has to refund, picked at random13:36
bramcgmaxwell, That fee going up thing can be a matter of policy instead of being baked into the spec13:37
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kanzureat the moment there is no way to check for the presence of another transaction13:38
kanzureiirc there are many fair proposals for a hard for kto introduce that (although no particularly written-down proposals), and so far no soft forks? i think?13:39
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gmaxwellbramc: sure well any of this is "just policy", the important point there is keeping the bandwidth usage finite.13:40
gmaxwellkanzure: there is a very straightfoward way to do that-- spend one of its outputs.13:41
kanzurebut his criteria was.. er..13:41
bramckanzure, Shouldn't require a hard fork, an OP_VERIFY should work fine13:41
kanzure"without spending its outputs in any way"13:41
bramcgmaxwell, spending an output is much larger. A new opcode could use a total of 256 + 8 bits13:42
gmaxwellkanzure: most things that people propose there are scale-fails.13:42
kanzurecan you elaborate?13:42
bramcOP_HAS_BEEN_COMMITTED_VERIFY: one byte to specify opcode type, 256 bits of specifying what it's reliant on. If that tx isn't in the committed set, it rejects13:43
gmaxwellkanzure: e.g. multiplicatively increasing the IO cost of verifying a transaction, breaking pruning, etc.13:43
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gmaxwell(much of the cost of verifying a transaction is simply looking up each of its inputs)13:43
kanzurebramc: there are many good reasons to do that. another approach is OP_PLEASE_HAVE_THIS_BLOCKHASH_IN_HISTORY13:44
gmaxwellblockhashes are easier to test and scale.13:44
kanzureoh right i did forget about the scaling problems of these proposals13:44
bramckanzure, blockhash doesn't work for child pays because the parent and child are pending at the same time13:44
kanzurehmm i will have to look more closely at this sometime13:44
kanzurebramc: yes i think you are solving a more specific problem than the one i'm thinking about13:44
bramckanzure, The one and only problem I'm trying to solve is that child pays bloats up the history by a factor of 213:45
kanzuregmaxwell: you could make the scalingness matter much less.. i mean, you could artificially limit it to transactions from the last N blocks, where N is totally arbitrary. and if they want to reference something older, they should switch to a lbockhash maybe.13:46
kanzure*blockhash13:46
bramcHow about OP_IS_COMMITTED_IN_SAME_BLOCK_VERIFY ?13:46
kanzurewhen would i want something to be in the same block, but not want to know whether it was in a previous block?13:47
kanzure*when would i want to know something was in the same block13:47
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gmaxwellkanzure: last N things are not reorg safe.13:47
bramcEr, what kanzure said, where I was proposing n=1, but allowing n to be a small number more13:47
kanzurethey are if you do something like 100 <= N <= 15013:48
kanzureheh i guess it's less useful if it's already 100 blocks deep anyway13:48
bramcTransactions are not reorg safe :-P13:48
kanzurei mean if the parent is13:48
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gmaxwellbramc: there is a big difference between things that will _spontaniously_ fail on their own, and things that require malicious action to fail.13:49
kanzureyeah i suppose not baking in spontaneous failure would be a nice thing to do13:49
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bramcgmaxwell, Isn't the lookup requirement of my proposed extension exactly the same as handling child pays normally?13:50
gmaxwellbramc: no because child pays works fine if the txn end up split across two blocks.13:50
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bramcgmaxwell, But it's the same number of lookups total, isn't it?13:51
bramcAlso I'm thinking that the number of verifies isn't generally huge, it's like 100 or something13:51
bramcSome value where the metadata overhead is insignificant13:51
bramcThe 2x factor of child pays is a real issue13:52
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gmaxwellbramc: depends, like if something has implemented a freeform lookup tx it may be enormously more work per unit of blocksize limit.  Also, 'has x' is a query against the complete history, as opposed to 'spends x' is a utxo query.13:53
bramcOoooh, the issue is whether it's unspent or not13:54
bramcBecause the unspent set is smaller13:54
gmaxwellperhaps for the very narrow purpose of a CPFP you can do something like the child is only good in the same block, and it's not reorg safe.. but it's a narrow application. But ::shrugs::13:55
gmaxwellbramc: right, bitcoin core doesn't even keep a database of the other stuff. The full UTXO database is about 600MB.13:55
kanzurecpfp = child pays fee pillowfight?13:55
bramcChild Pays For Parent13:55
kanzurethrow in some 4s into that, man13:56
bramcgmaxwell, How about dependency on the transaction being in the unspent set? Also not reorg safe...13:56
bramcRequiring it be in the exact same transaction is likely to start failing if you have a big set and a few things get accepted early13:57
bramcAlthough it might be unusual for a transaction to get accepted and spent when it was having trouble even going through, and whoever did the payment transaction can just reissue.13:59
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bramcAlthough, hmm, the remember first policy gets in the way of that.13:59
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bramcOh I know, you have the opposite OP_VERIFY, which is that something *not* be in the utxo set, and you apply it to the grandparent14:02
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bramcWith the edge case of being spent in the same block defined as passing14:03
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bramcgmaxwell, Is OP_NOT_IN_UTXO_SET_VERIFY to your liking?14:05
gmaxwellas in, you can't include this txn if that other one is still spendable? thats probably better.14:10
gmaxwellthat sounds like it has reasonable scaling behavior and reorg safty.14:10
phantomcircuitdamn left the space heater on overnight14:12
phantomcircuitif it was a miner i'd be tens of cents less poor14:13
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petertoddbramc: re: zeroconf "safe"/"honest" replacement, that's been implemented by aalness: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/pull/314:30
petertoddbramc: it's pretty easy to use, as inputs can be changed, letting you swap out a smaller input for a larger one, and then increasing the nValue of the change txout with the difference minus the new tx fee14:31
petertoddbramc: I'll submit it as a pull-req for bitcoin core sooner or later14:31
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petertoddbramc: re: "giving up on 0conf" it's remarkably hard to actually find any major users relying on 0conf right now at all; standard pattern seems to be services enable it, get ripped off, and quickly turn it off (e.g. atm operators)14:32
petertoddbramc: https://shapeshift.io/ is another example, that claims to accept 0conf but doesn't appear to actually do so14:33
gmaxwellWhats interesting to me is that people _really_ do not understand the tradeoffs/risk exposure there. E.g. they keep being surprised by things which I think are really not surprising.14:34
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justanotheruserpetertodd: there are small scale 0conf attacks in the wild? I thought there was some security through obscurity while replace-by-fee wasn't the norm.14:35
petertoddgmaxwell: doesn't help that people don't make their failurs public... e.g. aalness seems to indicate coinbase doesn't want to talk about it: https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/58220742819371417614:36
gmaxwelljustanotheruser: If you deployed accepting zero conf without really understanding the risks, you're also probably likely to overreact when you do get ripped off.14:36
petertoddjustanotheruser: for sure, lots of them, and people do the rational thing and quickly turn 0conf off after one or two successful attacks14:36
petertoddjustanotheruser: e.g. just a few weeks ago I talked to another atm operator who saw once, and switched to requiring a confirmation after the first $100 or something loss14:37
pigeonsyes coinbase has come in here and admitted they are getting ripped off from 0 confirms, then blamed it on eligius for not mining the 1st tx because one of the inputs was a known gambling game14:38
justanotheruseris that because their first tx isn't relayed about the network yet, or because some miners do the rational thing?14:38
petertoddpigeons: ah, ok, so that's something like the third time that's happened then14:38
justanotheruserLOL they blamed eligius?14:38
petertoddpigeons: (er, third as in what I personally know about)14:38
petertoddjustanotheruser: yes, as did mike hearn on his recent blog post14:38
pigeonsyes coinbase asked for help and the answer was, "wait for confirmations" they said that isnt a good customer experience14:39
petertoddpigeons: it's not clear to me that they actually understand what "wait for confirmations" really means re: UX14:39
justanotheruserdon't fiat withdrawals tend to take more than 10 minutes? What exactly is the problem for them with waiting for confirmations14:40
gmaxwellsort of ironic for coinbase blaming something for not assc. with a known gambling address, considering that sending to one of those from your coinbase wallet reportadly results in your account being immediately frozen and closed.14:40
petertoddgmaxwell: lol14:41
pigeonsjustanotheruser: it doesnt answer your question or the question in general, but this particular instance was not a fiat withdrawal but coinbase acting as a payment processor for a 3rd party merchant14:41
gmaxwell(unless that has changed since the initial reports on reddit)14:41
petertoddpigeons: was this merchant actually relying on 0conf? or was it the more usual case where losses are zero? (e.g. shipping a product hours later)14:41
justanotheruserpigeons: that makes sense then. The rational thing is probably to evaluate the fraud rate and give the merchant an ultimatum of 1-conf or 0-conf and high fee14:42
pigeonspetertodd: my uunderstanding was the merchant relies on coinbase saying "you have been paid you can release the goods", not that the business case actually required 0 confirms14:42
petertoddpigeons: right, coinbase is taking on a huge risk doing that...14:43
pigeonsyes then they told everyone how to do it to them more14:43
petertoddpigeons: they were so angry at replace-by-fee that they canceled a contract with me to implement proof-of-reserves14:44
gmaxwellit's hard. You're trying to sell vendor X on accpeting bitcoin via you.  Explaining zero conf security tradeoffs is not a good sales pitch.14:44
petertoddgmaxwell: indeed, and coinbase is big enough to fool themselves into thinking they can pull it off anyway by throwing engineers at the problem; if they start throwing lawyers at the problem...14:45
justanotherusermaybe they should contract you to implement green addresses and payment channels14:45
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pigeonsin ruby14:46
petertoddjustanotheruser: that was discussed earlier actually; curiously they brought up "conflicts of interest" as one of the reasons to cancel the contract - wonder if they realise I don't have any clients doing that stuff...14:46
justanotheruserpigeons: beating a dead horse :P14:46
justanotheruserpetertodd: I think the conflict of interest in their eyes is you increasing their fraud risk and being paid to implement the solution14:47
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petertoddjustanotheruser: could be, however there's a lot of people who are more likely to get paid to fix that problem than me14:48
bramcpetertodd, The rumor I heard is that coinbase has contractual obligations to accept 0conf14:48
petertoddbramc: I think it's highly likely that rumor is true14:49
petertoddbramc: their api docs say they do that, minus the contractual obligation part14:49
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gmaxwellWhats interesting to me is that some people (e.g. tom, and it sounds like coinbase) are actually confusing RBF assisted double spends (which there should be absolutely zero of now, as AFAIK there are no miners with that policy); and the inevitabilities of asynchronicity in the network (or other unavoidable or long term existing differences in state)14:51
phantomcircuitgmaxwell, i kind of wonder if discuss fish is rbf14:52
phantomcircuitthey seem to get the blocks very close to being full14:52
phantomcircuitwhich i think would be easier with rbf14:52
phantomcircuit(maybe not)14:52
gmaxwellsee the conversation in #bitcoin-dev last night with Tom; he linked https://gist.github.com/aalness/a78e3e35b90f52140f0d  and I pointed out that RBF does nothing interesting there,  sender just sends t1 and t2 concurrently and he can more or less precisely pick which nodes have one vs the other, which is much better than RBF in the sense that it actually works whereas RBF currently does not.  For14:53
gmaxwell some reason this didn't seem to click for him, at least not right away.  Maybe there is some way we're explaining bitcoin to people which is inherently confusing?14:53
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dgenr8jeez.  i have never misunderstood the speed of light.  the fact that I think improvement is possible, does not mean I believe in the impossible.14:54
bramcAccording to our psychoacoustic studies we need a 100 millisecond round trip time between new zealand and spain. Make it happen.14:55
phantomcircuitheh14:55
petertoddbramc: I'll get all my top men on that, for your top dollar14:57
gmaxwelldgenr8: Didn't say you did there. What I'm pointing out is that you seem to keep being surprised by things like me pointing out that concurrent transmission has the same result. I don't mean to pick on you, you're not alone.  But to me this is the most obvious thing possible, and it makes me wonder if something isn't being expressed poorly if you're failing to have really good intutions on the ho14:57
gmaxwellw things like that work.14:57
lechuga_that gist was wrt btw: https://github.com/aalness/bitcoin/commit/659399cc941db14d25f6a29494bdc01acd2ae45814:57
lechuga_(that patch was just an experiment)14:57
dgenr8yes andy also sent me that, haven't had time to look at it14:57
petertoddphantomcircuit: I doubt they're rbf, as I recently did a test designed to only get mined by rbf miners, which showed somewhere between 0% and 1% adoption14:58
gmaxwelllechuga_: ah, thats the "allow output supersets"? Cool that you went and implemented it.14:58
petertoddphantomcircuit: which funny enough hearn was going around saying the test was proof rbf doesn't work...14:58
lechuga_gmaxwell: nod. wanted to think more about the behavior. ultimately don't like it.14:58
petertoddlechuga_: why?14:58
gmaxwelllechuga_: What don't you like about it?14:58
phantomcircuitpetertodd, lold14:59
lechuga_if the intent is to increase confirmation priority seems like child-pays-for-parent would be smoother14:59
petertoddlechuga_: cpfp uses much more blockchain space14:59
justanotheruserpetertodd: you sure the 0-1% isn't just latency?14:59
petertoddjustanotheruser: that's why the range I gave includes 0% :)15:00
justanotheruserheh15:00
petertoddjustanotheruser: it's actually kinda tricky to design tests like that to avoid latency false-positives15:00
gmaxwelllechuga_: CPFP is really terrible to implement in terms of mempool management, and it's less efficient (= more fees). Both probably have a place.15:00
gmaxwelllechuga_: optimal block filling under CPFP is probably NP-complete, and even the hurestic soltions for it seem to produce hairball code... which is why we don't have it in Bitcoin core yet.15:01
petertoddgmaxwell: also, cpfp doesn't currently work in the case where the parent didn't have enough fees to get relayed15:01
phantomcircuitthe CPFP stuff is a DoS magnet15:01
phantomcircuitchain a bunch of transaction together and then adjust the fees just a little15:01
lechuga_ic15:02
gmaxwellpetertodd: yea, we don't have an INV that can transmit TX as groups.15:02
bramcgmaxwell, A greedy approach of highest fee first should work okay for prioritizing cpfp15:02
petertoddgmaxwell: exactly, same reason why I've never implemented rbf se w/ cpfp15:02
petertoddgmaxwell: yay acronyms!15:03
dgenr8<gmaxwell> Maybe there is some way we're explaining bitcoin to people which is inherently confusing?   <--- spare me the passive aggressive alpha-geek bullshit.  please ;)15:03
bramcNot ideal for adding together grandchildren and great-grandchildren, but good enough.15:03
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petertoddbramc: I've actually done a fair bit of work implementing that, and it's really complex compared to the current stuff15:03
lechuga_also dont like introducing another simple finney attack vector re: gist15:03
petertoddbramc: er, s/stuff/implementation/ to be clear15:03
gmaxwelldgenr8: Thats out of line.15:04
petertoddlechuga_: all IsStandard() changes do that; do you suggest we never change anything?15:04
bramcpetertodd, I'm sure, my point is that NP-completeness isn't something to be terribly worried about15:04
petertoddbramc: yeah, well, I'm a fine arts grad :P15:04
lechuga_are those my only choices?15:05
petertoddlechuga_: what do you mean?15:05
lechuga_nm, but point taken15:06
gmaxwelllechuga_: I think PT's comment was that _any_ difference in node policy gives you that, so it's not very interesting to avoid. Actually he wasn't expansive enough,  really any difference in _state_ gives you that. See my example with just concurrently announcing t1 and t2.15:06
gmaxwellIts unfortunate (IMO) but I think unavoidable, so not a reason to shy away from something useful.15:06
gmaxwellbramc: the "pick highest fee first" by itself doesn't work, e.g. you make a huge bloated chain of low fee txn, then add a single high fee cap.15:07
lechuga_then i guess i'd prefer 'honest' rbf behvaior since i think a well-connected observer can have a much better chance at detecting the fraud15:07
petertoddlechuga_: well, like I said, submit it as a pull-req and I'll ACK it15:08
bramcgmaxwell, Caveat of using highest fee/byte including all uncommitted ancestors, yadda yadda yadda, a bunch technical details which are annoying to implement15:08
petertoddbramc: remember that any tech detail that you didn't understand fully can easily lead to a DoS exploit here15:08
dgenr8gmaxwell: sorry.  it is your forum, after all15:08
gmaxwellbramc: yea yea, then you end up with the hairball stuff thats been written already, and has laid fallow because no one wants to review it.15:09
lechuga_petertodd: i did15:09
petertoddlechuga_: no, I mean to bitcoin core15:09
lechuga_meh15:10
lechuga_would rather spend time on a real solution to 0conf15:11
petertoddlechuga_: hey, if you submit it, you can call it "honest replace-by-fee" - I'll just call it "firstseen safe" :P15:11
lechuga_heh15:11
petertoddlechuga_: we do need a fix for fee bumping...15:11
gmaxwelllechuga_: I don't think we had any opposition to that kind of superset replacement so long as the fee goes up every time.15:11
gmaxwell(fee needs to go up some minimum threshold amount to prevent someone from making it into a DOS vector where they make a single very low priority txn and then keep updating it; same as why we don't realy non-final txn)15:13
petertoddgmaxwell: my rbf patch makes fee go up by same amount per byte as min relay fee15:14
gmaxwellpetertodd: yea, that seems reasonable to me.15:14
gmaxwellThere is some increased 'successful sender mutation risk' there, but I don't think it's an interesting attack vector because it can't be much worse than what you can get from concurrent broadcast already.15:15
justanotheruserHas block withholding + replace-by-fee DoS been discussed?15:16
gmaxwelle.g. I send you a txout. You make a spend of it while unconfirmed. I successfully mutate the payment out from under you, invalidating your spend.15:16
petertoddjustanotheruser: ?15:16
petertoddgmaxwell: which is a practice damn near no wallets allow anyway15:17
justanotheruserpetertodd: If I am guaranteed to win I can spam the network with 100BTC worth of transactions incrementing each time without risk of miners eating my 100BTC in fees15:17
justanotherusers/incrementing each time/incrementing the fee each time/15:17
petertoddjustanotheruser: right, however that's not any different from what you can do right now anyway15:17
justanotheruseryeah...15:18
petertoddjustanotheruser: you can just spam 100BTC worth of standard transactions, and anywya, spamming transactions as a DoS vector is hard15:18
gmaxwellpetertodd: yea, it's crazy to do that in any case already; but I'm just trying to think inclusively.15:18
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phantomcircuit<gmaxwell> Its unfortunate (IMO) but I think unavoidable15:21
phantomcircuitthere's probably some shenanigans that can be played by measuring hashrate working on a tx15:21
phantomcircuitbut that certainly cant be done today15:21
petertoddphantomcircuit: I proposed that awhile back actually: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02868.html15:25
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phantomcircuitpetertodd, to be fair it's kind of an obvious solution :P15:37
phantomcircuit(im sure someone else has suggested this before)15:38
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petertoddphantomcircuit: well, at the time it wasn't obvious to me, lol16:10
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bramcWhat do bitcoin atms do when they don't support zeroconf? Do they require you come back after a few minutes to get your cash?16:11
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justanotheruserbramc: get your identity16:18
bramcjustanotheruser, identity meaning what? Something more than the owner of a particular pubkey?16:18
justanotheruserbramc: I think you need to go through a verification process before using one and then you can identify with your fingerprint. Though that is just one ATM a year ago16:19
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bramcjustanotheruser, That doesn't sound very bitcoinish16:20
justanotheruserit involves bitcoin doesn't it?16:20
justanotherusernot much they can do when AML/KYC laws exist16:20
moapalm scans, facial photos, ID scans ... atm are full on KYC/AML dragnets in some places16:21
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moaand then limit transactions sizes to less than $1000 lol16:22
moalike columbian cartels are using bitcoin atms to wash their cash ...16:23
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petertoddbramc: that's exactly what they do; some operators are even better and let you deposit funds in advance on a website prior to actually going to the atm in person16:37
bramcpetertodd, Better than giving people the cash without authentication and making them pinky swear that they'll hand over bitcoin later.16:39
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phantomcircuit!ops17:15
phantomcircuitsipa, ^17:16
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fluffyponyok so bramc23:30
fluffyponywhen I was in LA and Las Vegas a few months ago23:30
fluffyponyI tried a bunch of ATMs23:30
fluffyponythe experience was horrible23:30
fluffyponythe ones in LA were Robocoin, but seemed to be customised23:34
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fluffyponythe process was arduous and quite confusing, I first had to scan my palm print, take a photo, scan my passport23:35
fluffyponyand then wait for "10 minutes" (turned out to be 20) whilst someone manually reviewed my "application"23:35
fluffyponyonce that was confirmed the actual process was easier - go back to ATM, say you want to withdraw cash, send BTC,23:36
fluffyponywalk away, wait for 1 confirmation, go back, login, print slip, take slip to till, get cash23:36
fluffyponythe Robocoin ones in Vegas were a joke - go through a similar process, send funds, wait for SIX confirmations! I gave up23:37
gmaxwellmy SO had a similar expirence at a non-bitcoin ATM recently.  Swiped card, made withdraw.  "please wait, dispensing money"23:40
gmaxwellfor 20 minutes.23:40
gmaxwellWe couldn't leave... because, you know, "dispensing money".23:40
gmaxwellEventually it timed out.23:40
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fluffyponylol23:46
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fluffyponyI feel like the problem is easily surmountable, it just requires Bitcoin ATMs designed by humans and not robots23:47
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midnightmagicthe ATMs that steal your card while you do it are the worst when they "malfunction".23:57
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 31 00:00:38 2015

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