2015-04-06.log

--- Log opened Mon Apr 06 00:00:44 2015
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* andy-logbot is logging01:05
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rustyLightning Networks Part III is up.  A bit dryer than the other two, but if you got this far... http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=46704:26
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bedehorusty: This is a great write-up, will read through04:51
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CoinMuncherVery much appreciated!   s/Hased/Hashed/05:15
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mkarrer_Is a locktime > 0 standard (relayed)?08:57
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fluffyponyis #bitcoin-dev a better channel for this?08:59
fluffypony:-P08:59
mkarrer_will try it there08:59
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bsm117532Who has read this before? http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_101.pdf15:54
bsm117532It's an idea that's been in the back of my head for a while.  They beat me to it.15:54
bsm117532Basically, using a Directed Acyclic Graph instead of a chain (of blocks).15:55
phantomcircuitbsm117532, there's no date on that paper15:57
phantomcircuiti cant stand that15:57
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kanzure"i only read papers that include their git commit id in their header"15:58
kanzurebut also, the url has some hints15:59
fluffyponykanzure: I thought you only read papers transmitted to you via carrier pigeon or morse code?15:59
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bsm117532Yes, see the top level URL, it seems to have been contributed to this conference: http://fc15.ifca.ai/16:03
bsm117532In Puerto Rico.  I wish I had gone!16:03
bsm117532I can't find it published anywhere else, I think it's probably still in preparation by the authors, I'll probably write them an email tonight, because I'm thinking of implementing this.16:04
andytoshiit's from late 2014, it is stuff the GHOST people did to improve on GHOST, they presented at FC15 in PR in january16:04
andytoshii was there but didn't follow it; several other -wizards were who might have a better idea of it16:05
bsm117532GHOST did not change from a chain/tree to a DAG, AFAIK, but if you have refs to the contrary...16:05
bsm117532This paper specifically includes both GHOST and the DAG improvements.16:06
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bsm117532Basically, each block has multiple parents, and you allow the same transaction to occur in multiple blocks.16:20
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bsm117532With those two, you can basically throw blocks out as fast as you want, and make the software assemble them into a DAG (which they are anyway unless you have a time machine or there's a hash collision).  You wouldn't have orphans anymore, chain tips would track conflicting transactions instead, and non-conflicting transactions could be moved to another fork and re-mined into it.16:22
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bsm117532There's a ton of advantages to this.  You could have a much faster block time, and put a serious dent in miner centralization.16:22
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Taekbsm117532: you'd still need some way to limit the total transaction volume per minute16:35
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bsm117532Of course.  I'm oversimplifying.16:36
moabsm117532: what limits number of chaintips being divergent?16:36
bsm117532e.g. let each node decide for itself what the minimum difficulty it will accept/relay/mine on.16:36
bsm117532moa: good question.  Been thinking about that, don't have a good answer right now.  What's bitcoin's limit on tracking orphans/alternate chains?16:37
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moaseems like a DDOS issue also16:37
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bsm117532It's a DDoS of mined blocks, yes.  So it's an expensive DDoS that requires mining hardware...16:38
moanot if mined blocks can have diff=116:38
TaekIt might be good to pair this concept with something like difficulty-per-kb16:38
bsm117532No node would accept or relay those.  I'm thinking each node would evaluate for itself what the hashrate is (with a fast hashrate it's easy and accurate) and advertise what it will accept.16:39
TaekI'm pretty sure that would cause consensus risk16:39
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Taekyou'd need a global rule determining which blocks were acceptable16:39
moaand then you're back into longest chain is best so what else do you need to track?16:39
bsm117532Taek most difficult chain is best.16:40
moait is an interesting approach though16:40
moadifferent latitdue16:41
bsm117532I sat down last night to start implementing this, got slightly discouraged by the depth of the required changes, and found this paper today...16:41
Taekbsm117532: 'most difficult chain is best' doesn't help you if you've decided to ignore blocks smaller than diff=X, but the longest chain contains those blocks16:42
Taekor rather, as a miner you get put at a disadvantage for ignoring them16:42
bsm117532Taek: depends on how you combine difficulty from two blocks.  If you do it such that D(x)+D(y) = 2*D(x) then the miner could have produced a block of the same difficulty in twice the time.16:43
bsm117532One can imagine other ways to combine it...16:43
Taekwhere D(x) < D(y) ?16:44
bsm117532D(x)=D(y) is 1/hashrate for the miner.16:44
Taekhmm16:44
bsm117532Point is, miner would gain no advantage by throwing blocks out twice as fast with half the difficulty.16:44
bsm117532This part my idea is not fully fleshed out... not sure how much overlaps with the above paper...16:45
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Taeksorry if I'm misunderstanding something but having 2x the blocks might be an advantage if you know a minority of your competition can't keep up with the bandwidth16:46
bsm117532Yes.  The block rate becomes a dynamic parameter that reflects the bandwidth of participants.16:47
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moaand issuance?16:48
bsm117532mao you mean coinbase reward?  Would have to change obviously.  A fixed target block rate might be desirable anyway for that reason unless one came up with a different issuance scheme.16:49
moawell difficulty/block rate/issuacne are all coupled in btc16:50
bsm117532Let's just be really dumb about it and say you get a block reward proportional to the difficulty of the block you mined.16:51
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Taekthat sounds reasonable enough to me16:51
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bsm117532That reward would grow in time with the hashrate but...16:51
moasounds exactly like hashcash16:51
bsm117532Except for the DAG part...16:52
Taekwell, you'd still have an adjustor. It would just tally the total weight of the blockchain every X work and determine what the new reward per work is16:52
moayeah i meant in the more hashes=morecashes sense16:52
Taekand then you throw on an extra limit that says blocks can have at most Xkb per work, and then gets retargeted at the same itme16:53
Taek*time16:53
bsm117532I really dislike having the network need consensus on the adjustment.  If we got rid of orphans like this, each node can make his own decisions about what difficulty he will take, and adjust it as he sees fit.  Most difficult chain still wins.16:53
Taekwith having a specific attack in mind, that just seems like something that would favor more powerful miners16:54
bsm117532Needing consensus on the target brings clocks into the game.16:54
Taekyes the reliance on clocks is unfortunate16:54
bsm117532Taek: yes, that's why I mentioned that this proposal for the block reward was "dumb"16:55
moai think it is fundamental isn't it?16:55
moaas in unavoidable16:56
Taekmoa: I don't see why it would be fundamentally necessary16:56
bsm117532No, Satoshi conflated issuance and consensus. I could premine all coins and distribute them a different way if I wanted to.16:56
moaseem to recall that from some previous analysis but forget the chain of reasoning ...16:57
moawould need to revisit16:57
bsm117532Mind you, I think that conflation was a good idea for initial distribution, but they're logically separate things.  I think it also gave a lot of people the terrible idea that this "mining" activity was somehow "generating" value.16:58
moadistributed timestamp server16:58
bsm117532What about them?16:59
moathat's the clock in the game16:59
bsm117532There is no distributed timestamp server in bitcoin.17:00
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phantomcircuitbsm117532, there sort of is17:01
bsm117532I'd say it the other way, bitcoin *is* a (very poor) distributed timestamp server.17:01
bsm117532but it doesn't use one external to itself.  timestamps come from node clocks.17:02
moait is very distributed timestamp server ... best at what it does17:02
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bsm117532A DAG (or chain) allows you to time/normal order transactions without actually using a clock.17:03
bsm117532I'd rather see one of two things: (1) no clocks at all in the consensus or (2) push the limits on clocks to get NTP-level resolution.17:04
bsm117532But these arbitrary rules like 2-week retargets, 100 blocks to spend coinbases, etc. are totally arbitrary and are attempting to solve a different problem, that should probably be solved in a better way.17:05
moawell the 'clock' is the sequential ordering of transactions innto hashed blocks, the node timestamps are not the 'clock'17:05
bsm117532The only clock that matters is: did transaction A come in a block before transaction B?  And the only way time actually comes into that is the retarget calculation, which uses the timestamps in the blocks.17:06
bsm117532Which could be entirely fudged...17:07
moanot really17:07
bsm117532Up to yet more arbitrary limits, they can.17:07
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moaexcept it has never been done17:08
bsm117532You haven't been paying attention to the altcoins, I see...  ;-)  (Also, never been done != can't be done)17:09
moai witnessed the first timewarp attack ... on namecoin17:09
moa:)17:10
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moa;)17:10
bsm117532Anyway I'm getting off topic.  Screwing with difficulty adjustments is a separate topic from using a DAG instead of a chain.  ;-)17:10
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moaarguably DAG might be off-topic unless you have a concrete proposal17:11
moaseems like lots of loose chain tips to tidy up17:12
bsm117532moa: See the above paper.  ;-)  I was reluctant to bring it up until I found this paper... http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_101.pdf17:12
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