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| gmaxwell | https://plus.google.com/103188246877163594460/posts/WTrnyFsRmHv | 08:05 |
|---|---|---|
| jcorgan | congrats | 08:07 |
| fluffypony | go rusty! | 08:07 |
| amiller | nice | 08:09 |
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| kanzure | .title | 08:43 |
| yoleaux | Leaving IBM May 4. Joining blockstream.com May 11. In 1997 I went to Usenix's… | 08:43 |
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| Taek | rusty congrats | 11:31 |
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| Taek | also congrats to blockstream | 11:32 |
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| jgarzik | Taek, great addition to the _bitcoin_ dev team :) | 12:20 |
| jgarzik | (meaning the wider bitcoin community) | 12:20 |
| jgarzik | The BTC community needs more smart, capable people like Rusty. | 12:20 |
| bsm117532 | What happened? | 12:20 |
| andytoshi | +1 jgarzik , and congrats rusty | 12:21 |
| jgarzik | <random> | 12:22 |
| jgarzik | I am vaguely tempted to see if I could find funding just to hire a "bitcoin intern" -- take a motivated C/C++'er and teach them bitcoin, to grow the community. Cheap payroll for me, intern learns bitcoin core, and the bitcoin community grows. | 12:22 |
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| morcos | you should definitely do that! get a Ga Tech CS student for the summer | 12:32 |
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| jgarzik | morcos, yup | 12:35 |
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| thufir | So, my NSA killing project is about to have the first public PREVIEW release. It is cloud 2.0, decentralized. Next step is incentivized. It will use bitcoin. The hash power cannot be split. I grok this. This is a purpose other than enabling cloud 2.0. It gives bitcoin intrinsic value that exists only on the internet (ie, no exchange needed, my project is an exchange for btc->bandwidth,storage,and more). Anyways, I come to ask. | 13:24 |
| thufir | Is bitcoin ready yet!?! IE: I NEED NLOCKTIMEDLAY!!! (or something like that to do probabilitc payments, channels, etc.. i need massive transaction amount) | 13:24 |
| thufir | please say yes and how... | 13:25 |
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| sipa | if by nlocktimedelay you mean checklocktimeverify (bip 65), feel free to help test the implenentation and contribute | 13:26 |
| thufir | so that is enabled on test net at least? | 13:27 |
| sipa | if you need massive transaction amount, the bitcoin blockchain won't help you (it is directly in conflict with the ability for the world to validate it) | 13:27 |
| thufir | and thank you! for that information (i will read bip65) | 13:27 |
| sipa | no, it is not even implemented entirely | 13:28 |
| thufir | sipa: probabibilistic payments | 13:28 |
| sipa | wrt killing the NSA: take it elsewhere | 13:28 |
| thufir | 1/1bill lotto ticket = 1 billion x transaction count | 13:28 |
| thufir | sure, if you are afraid of satan i understand | 13:28 |
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| andytoshi | thufir: keep it civil | 13:29 |
| thufir | andytoshi: i won't mention it again while sipa is around, i am civil. | 13:29 |
| thufir | so is that nlock thing enabled on the test net? | 13:29 |
| sipa | i just told you it is not even implemented entirely | 13:30 |
| sipa | let alone an actual deployment plan | 13:31 |
| sipa | let alone being in production | 13:31 |
| andytoshi | thufir: it's not just sipa. this channel is about research and technology; while these sort of stuff is hard to separate from the political context there's no need for name-calling or manifesto-type comments | 13:31 |
| thufir | don't be mad, i wasn't attacking you, i am just done with being afraid of them. we must be open, it is the antidote to their system. if we are open, we find each other. if we are closed, we find allies much slower. | 13:31 |
| sipa | feel free to contribute to its development, however | 13:31 |
| thufir | yes, sorry | 13:32 |
| kanzure | inflammatory comments are obvious and they are very boring | 13:32 |
| sipa | thufir: if i was afraid of them i wouldn't be asking you to stop talking about it in a publicly logged channel. this channel is about technical research. anything else is off topic, whether you agree with the statements or not | 13:33 |
| thufir | i said none. only objective pragmatic fact. you are the ones who keep talking about that. i am here to yes, contribute to development | 13:33 |
| thufir | asking me to stop is doing their job, so i would now guess yes, afriad | 13:33 |
| thufir | lets stop talking about it then and talk about development, no? | 13:33 |
| sipa | good | 13:33 |
| kanzure | sipa: if he is this bad at thinking about that topic, why would you expect him to be capable of contributing on other topics | 13:34 |
| thufir | so then, bip 65 is the state of the art in what I seek? (enabling probabilistic payments?) and it isn't implemented even in test net yet? i thought some nlocktimedelay was done and in testnet? | 13:34 |
| sipa | i do not know what nlocktimedelay is, nor do i know the state of the art for probabilistic payments | 13:35 |
| thufir | kanzure: not asking him then, but i don't judge, i hope he learns. i am open to all who want to join, regardless of their past. | 13:35 |
| thufir | ok, i might have it wrong, sec... | 13:35 |
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| thufir | I guess it is just nLockTime (no delay) | 13:36 |
| sipa | do you have some reference for s probabilistic payment scheme that uses nlocktimedelay (and do you have something describing what nlocktinedelay is, if not checklocktimeverify)? | 13:36 |
| andytoshi | thufir: i think bip62 (non-malleability) is sufficient for probabilistic payments | 13:36 |
| thufir | well, bip-65 is referenced as "revisiting nLockTime" by qntra.net | 13:37 |
| thufir | i found now in search, thanks to you guys so thanks, and no hard feelings, i am just forward | 13:37 |
| thufir | oh awesome andy! | 13:37 |
| thufir | is that implemented in at least test net? :( :) | 13:37 |
| thufir | because yes, only flaw of probabilistic payments is the darn malliability | 13:38 |
| sipa | bip62 is not fully implemented | 13:38 |
| thufir | because fixing malliability would save on tracactions.. nLockTime would require transactions still and might not really work for probabilisitc payments at the scale i know that fixing malliability would | 13:39 |
| andytoshi | thufir: you can build and test systems which depend on bip62 since transactions which violate its restrictions are nonstandard to most nodes | 13:39 |
| andytoshi | actual deployment would need to wait for it to be fully implemented | 13:40 |
| sipa | andytoshi: the low-s rule is not enforced however | 13:40 |
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| andytoshi | oh, oops, i thought it was | 13:40 |
| thufir | is it implemented enough that i could use testnet as the backing for my system? when you guys are ready i switch it over? testnet would be enough as my system is not gold if you loose it, just bandwidth | 13:40 |
| sipa | no, it is not implemented enough | 13:41 |
| sipa | nowhere | 13:41 |
| thufir | ah ok, thank you! | 13:41 |
| sipa | and implementation is not sufficient: you need the actual network to adopt it | 13:42 |
| thufir | well, i might be joining your dev team to help because the free world needs cloud 2.0, and cloud 2.0 needs bitcoin (i refuse to use an alternative like creating a filecoin, i already know it must be bitcoin) | 13:42 |
| thufir | but that sucks cause it will slow me down | 13:43 |
| sipa | wth is cloud 2.0? | 13:43 |
| sipa | stop using buzzwords | 13:43 |
| thufir | my project. my purpose in life. | 13:43 |
| fluffypony | sipa: it's just before cloud 3.0 | 13:43 |
| fluffypony | and inbetween IAAS 1.5 and SAAS 2.8 | 13:43 |
| thufir | ok, then you heard it here first. only the "unnamable" knows its name, and one friend. now you all do: morphis | 13:44 |
| thufir | it deprecates bittorrent to start | 13:44 |
| sipa | whitepaper? research? code? design documents? | 13:45 |
| thufir | 3 months in the coding, years and years of thinking and planning. | 13:45 |
| fluffypony | guitar lessons: http://www.morphis.com | 13:45 |
| fluffypony | .title | 13:45 |
| yoleaux | Beginner Guitar Lessons :: morphis.com | 13:45 |
| thufir | i say maybe a month until preview release that will sufficiently deprecate bittorrent | 13:46 |
| thufir | yes, i don't care | 13:46 |
| thufir | morph.is | 13:46 |
| thufir | :) | 13:46 |
| thufir | eat your heart out guitar guy | 13:46 |
| thufir | oh btw, i taught myself classical guitar, will check out your site :) | 13:46 |
| kanzure | what is your opinion of mkultra | 13:46 |
| fluffypony | where's bramc when you need him... | 13:46 |
| thufir | might be what created me, | 13:46 |
| fluffypony | thufir: it's not my site | 13:46 |
| thufir | ah :( i could use more guitar expert friends | 13:47 |
| thufir | kanzure: why do you ask? | 13:47 |
| thufir | well, i also know it to be a failure. unless you wanted your control of the interenet to be lost | 13:48 |
| thufir | I see. we'll i guess I'll wait for Todd. Thanks for the info so far though guys. | 13:54 |
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| thufir | so what is the low-s rule? | 14:16 |
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| andytoshi | thufir: ECDSA sigs consist of a pair of numbers (s, r) which each live in a field of order roughly 2^256; turns out for each (s, r) that ($field_order - s, r) is also a valid sig, creating a degree of freedom that an attacker can use to change data on the wire (which doesn't affect any functionality but can confuse things); the low-s rule says that only one of these is actually valid, removing that | 14:18 |
| andytoshi | degree of freedom | 14:18 |
| thufir | so low-s means the sig is only valid if it is the lowest possible sig? so it is not implemented yet because? i guess it is impossible to know the lowest possible s (ie, someone might know math that would calculate a valid lower one) ? | 14:20 |
| andytoshi | that's not what it means; it means exactly what i said. it's not implemented because it was overlooked that this degree of freedom could be problematic, it's still not problematic for systems in use today, and changes in a consensus system are slow to happen | 14:21 |
| thufir | yes, i understand. i mean the low-s rule, it means only accept lowest s? | 14:21 |
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| gmaxwell | What do you mean not implemented? all Bitcoin Core nodes produce low-s signatures, but it cannot be enforced in the network currently because it would break existing wallets. | 14:22 |
| thufir | I don't know what you mean by "rule says that only one of these is actually valid". one of what? | 14:22 |
| thufir | oh, is that all? | 14:23 |
| thufir | like you guys know you know the math to know the lowest s? so you could implement such a rule? if only it didn't break existing wallets with higher s's? | 14:23 |
| gmaxwell | It's implemented in bitcoin core, but not enforced for other people's transactions. | 14:23 |
| thufir | wow. damn. i understand the problem that we can't force old wallets to have to move their coins. damn | 14:24 |
| gmaxwell | not move their coins, but not create incompatible transactions. | 14:24 |
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| thufir | so can't it be simple like: if coins come from < block (351720) then don't apply low-s rule, otherwise, transaction must be low-s to be accepted? | 14:25 |
| gmaxwell | Great, and now your coins are all stuck becuase you have some unupgradable hardware wallet. | 14:26 |
| thufir | because that hardware wallet might genereate a non low-s new address? | 14:27 |
| thufir | only generate | 14:27 |
| gmaxwell | this has nothing to do with addresses. | 14:27 |
| gmaxwell | It's the /SIGNATURE/. | 14:27 |
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| Taek | while people are asking dumb questions: do schnorr signature schemes have curves? I confess I still don't understand them well | 14:28 |
| thufir | hmm, ok i think i see. hardware wallet that makes high-s transaction signatures can't escape its coins | 14:28 |
| thufir | gmaxwell: thank you immensiley. i am thinking :) | 14:29 |
| thufir | it would be too much cpu or something for the rule i proposed to be instead of < block 351720, to instead be: if all input coins to a TX come from low-s signed transactions, then the TX must be low-s as well. | 14:30 |
| gmaxwell | Taek: schnorr is a signature system based on groups where discrete logs are hard. | 14:30 |
| gmaxwell | Taek: it can be used over integer rings or EC or other groups that have the right properties. | 14:31 |
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| gmaxwell | thufir: what software people who send you coins runs doesn't imply anything about the software you run! | 14:31 |
| thufir | but i mean if me and alice want to do something that requires malliability fixed, then i can transfer my coins into a valid low-s TX if they are not already. then I can do my probablistic TX to alice. she knows that since the coins in this probabilistic TX come from a low-s TX that the lotto ticket is valid? | 14:34 |
| thufir | valid i mean safe, not winning, you knew that probably | 14:36 |
| Taek | gmaxwell: ok, I think I understand that. You could use secp256k1 as 'g' because discrete logs are hard in that field? But more typically a Schnorr group is used? | 14:36 |
| gmaxwell | I have never personally seen schnorr implemented over an integer ring in deployment. | 14:37 |
| thufir | gmaxwell: does that solve it? ie, anyone else doesn't care about low/high-s. but for those who do because they are looking at a probabilistic ticket, they can know it is valid if it is low-s signed and all input coins come from low-s TXs, because that is the new low-s rule? | 14:38 |
| thufir | your pause is getting me excited... because it means you haven't found the flaw yet? ;) | 14:40 |
| gmaxwell | thufir: I am unable to decode your request! | 14:40 |
| thufir | lol (crying laugh) :) | 14:40 |
| gmaxwell | what the heck is a "probablistic ticket"? :) | 14:41 |
| thufir | probabilistic payments | 14:41 |
| thufir | only broken due to malleability | 14:41 |
| andytoshi | thufir: the problem is that -in transit- somebody can change a signature from low-s to high-s; it doesn't matter if everyone involved agrees to use low-s | 14:41 |
| thufir | a cheap way for 1 billion x tx on btc | 14:41 |
| thufir | yes, humans won't like it. but autonomous agents won't mind | 14:41 |
| gmaxwell | I think you need to step back and understand actually the mechenism by which things are broken. | 14:41 |
| thufir | andytoshi: so if that high-s tx has only coins from low-s txs then it won't be accepted with my proposed low-s rule.? | 14:42 |
| thufir | gmaxwell: i think i do understand it :) | 14:42 |
| gmaxwell | (also, I'm not aware of probablistic payment scheme which is broken by malleability) | 14:42 |
| gmaxwell | thufir: the transaction _you_ accept isn't your issue in any case. | 14:43 |
| thufir | if i know the ticket i was given is low-s and matches the rule so low-s rule will be applied then i know the network won't accept any other | 14:43 |
| andytoshi | thufir: you're confusing different parts of the system; coins don't come "from txs" (see https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-faq.pdf ) for an explanation of low-s vs high-s see https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/malleability-faq.pdf | 14:43 |
| thufir | andytoshi: thx | 14:44 |
| gmaxwell | thufir: we just explained that the network cannot currently reject violating transactions because that will break existing wallets. | 14:44 |
| andytoshi | thufir: btw everything in there about mt gox is probably false | 14:44 |
| andytoshi | but the technical content is correct | 14:44 |
| thufir | gmaxwell: so are you saying one of the probabilistic payments schemes does work 100%? | 14:44 |
| gmaxwell | I'm saying that issues they have are not malleability related. | 14:45 |
| thufir | gmaxwell: even with my altered rule? existing wallets would make non low-s txs, but the coins would come from non... shit, i guess it is random. its coins might be in low-s TXs but its next TX it would ever generate is high-s? that is the issue? | 14:45 |
| thufir | gmaxwell: i've heard that before that the only issue is humans | 14:45 |
| andytoshi | thufir: you aren't making sense, please read the PDFs i linked you | 14:46 |
| thufir | gmaxwell: is that what you mean? human acceptance of a losing lotto ticket as payment? | 14:46 |
| thufir | gmaxwell: if that is the only problem, my system doesn't mind that, it understands that is a valid payment.. the risk | 14:46 |
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| thufir | andytoshi: i am, thank you | 14:46 |
| gmaxwell | thufir: thats a problem with it, most people reject the idea very agressively in my expirence. Not the only one. | 14:46 |
| thufir | gmaxwell: ok, that one for me is 100% not relivent. I do understand it, but for my system to use it in the background it doesn't mind what humans think. | 14:47 |
| thufir | gmaxwell: what are the other problems if not malleability? | 14:47 |
| thufir | andytoshi: i did read these back in mtgox days, still thank you | 14:47 |
| gmaxwell | What made you think malleability was an issue at all? All the proposals I've seen have double spending problems. | 14:48 |
| thufir | exactly. isn't that due to malleability? | 14:48 |
| thufir | that the double spend is possible? | 14:48 |
| gmaxwell | No. | 14:48 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. you use the same coin to probablistically pay many people concurrently instead of sequentially. | 14:49 |
| thufir | hmm | 14:49 |
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| thufir | from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Nanopayments: "If need be, this could be solved with hub servers that nanopayment recipients would use to announce coins currently in use to other nanopayment recipients." | 14:50 |
| thufir | so that is what you are speaking of then | 14:50 |
| thufir | that is the problem and if i fix that then malliability is for sure not a problem? | 14:50 |
| gmaxwell | thufir: I still have no idea why you thought malleability was an issue to begin with! | 14:51 |
| thufir | because my system deprecates 'hub servers' so very well might be the symbiant of bitcoin that fixes nano-payments | 14:51 |
| gmaxwell | (for that application) | 14:51 |
| gmaxwell | thufir: that fix requires they be a semitrusted cosigner on the coins. | 14:52 |
| thufir | i am sorry, it is not fresh in my mind. i realized it when mtgox made it an issue. so i forget the thinking. | 14:52 |
| andytoshi | gmaxwell: iirc a payment that goes through is a pair of chained transactions that get confirmed together | 14:52 |
| andytoshi | so there's a potential loss if the first gets marred then confirmed | 14:53 |
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| thufir | yes, what andy is saying sounds familiar | 14:53 |
| thufir | if i had a winning ticket they can jam it or whatever he is saying | 14:53 |
| thufir | before i broadcast it | 14:53 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: in the last protocol I remembered all it did is jam. | 14:53 |
| thufir | i think they invalidate the tx the coins in the winning ticket came from | 14:53 |
| thufir | i can fix the semitructed cosigner to fix the double spend. i believe it in easy due to nature of my system | 14:54 |
| gmaxwell | I find this doubtful. | 14:54 |
| thufir | but that thing andytoshi is talking about I do not know how to solve unless my low-s rules sounds good?? | 14:54 |
| andytoshi | gmaxwell: the one in the wiki can't jam, the payer creates a tx and sends it to the payee, that is the entirety of the payment | 14:54 |
| andytoshi | then if it happens to be valid, the payee broadcasts it | 14:54 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: yea, indeed. | 14:55 |
| thufir | so by your opinions, the link i sent nanopayments. if my code doesn't mind like a human (that isn't the issue), and i have a magic oracle to register the source tx with like the wiki says: "A hub server would be pretty simple, just a single lookup table. A merchant sends it a reserve message. The server checks that the signature matches the coin. If a reserve is already in effect for that coin, it returns an error, otherwise | 14:57 |
| thufir | OK." (just assume like human problem this doesn't exist), then in your guys exper opinions, the wiki nanopayment is 100% perfect? no malleability problem? | 14:57 |
| andytoshi | i also had some idea that double-spending wasn't a problem except with pretty low probability (if you send two payments then 0, 1 or 2 of the will go through; if you double-spend then the "2" case results in theft, but that's unlikely), but i can't remember the details | 14:57 |
| andytoshi | and to double-spend you need your txid guess to be in-range for multiple probabilistic transactions, which if the range is small and random, is unlikely to occur | 14:57 |
| gmaxwell | andytoshi: you _always_ concurrently spend, it's a direct division of your payment, undetectably, proportially to the parallelism you can achieve. | 14:58 |
| andytoshi | thufir: ...but i really didn't think these things through, please don't go building systems based on these half-bakked thoughts! | 14:58 |
| thufir | hehe | 14:58 |
| thufir | no thank you so much | 14:58 |
| andytoshi | gmaxwell: oh, right, derp | 14:58 |
| thufir | andytoshi: i am sorry to say that i am already 3 months into full time development of it, 1 month until first version (0 bitcoin in it) | 14:59 |
| thufir | andytoshi: but next step is what i've planned for years, since you first proposed nanopayments! | 14:59 |
| gmaxwell | if you have a (semi-)trusted cosigner then you can stop the multiplication. | 15:00 |
| andytoshi | thufir: i didn't propose them, it was mike caldwell i think, i had an old article about them that didn't cite him upfront (but it is now fixed to do this) | 15:00 |
| thufir | i stand on the shoulder of giants. credit to you all | 15:00 |
| thufir | thanks both of you for your time so far, i can't thank you enough. well, hopefully my contribution helps | 15:01 |
| thufir | My name is Sam Maloney, btw. This is my usual nick on freenode. Take care for now. | 15:04 |
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| Eliel | if there's just one extra version of a tx producable through malleability, then couldn't you just produce continuation txs for both versions to effectively make malleability a non-issue? | 16:27 |
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| thufir | Eliel: i think there are essentially 2^256 different valid ones, not just one | 17:22 |
| sipa | for ECDSA, just one | 17:26 |
| sipa | but read BIP62, there are many ways through which a transaction can br malleated that does not rely on ECDSA malleability | 17:27 |
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| hhogan420 | i conco | 17:42 |
| hhogan420 | concur*, if anything the bullet point summary was a really important takeaway for understanding malleability 'vectors' | 17:43 |
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| hhogan420 | (from BIP62) | 17:43 |
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| rusty | Hmm, would it ease enforcement of low-s-value normalized txs if bitcoin core flipped non-conformant signatures? A bit weird, of course, to normalize other peoples transactions... | 20:10 |
| phantomcircuit | rusty, there's nodes that add null padding | 20:11 |
| phantomcircuit | so why not | 20:11 |
| rusty | phantomcircuit: null padding? | 20:11 |
| sipa | rusty: i don't think it would help | 20:12 |
| phantomcircuit | openssl didn't correctly enforce the DER minimum encoding rules until very recently | 20:12 |
| sipa | enforcement is about being sure that no malleated form enters the blockchain | 20:12 |
| sipa | phantomcircuit: it also did not intend to | 20:12 |
| phantomcircuit | so you were free to add null padding since it was BER | 20:12 |
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| phantomcircuit | sipa, the function names indicate someone at some point intended to | 20:13 |
| phantomcircuit | d2i and such | 20:13 |
| sipa | well they have a fully fledger ber decoder | 20:13 |
| rusty | sipa: sure, so you start with making them non-standard (but do the normalized step first), then later at some point soft-fork to make them invalid. | 20:13 |
| phantomcircuit | (btw they didn't fix the actual decoder, they merely do a decode/encode/compare) | 20:13 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, sure but that is a super set of a der decoder | 20:14 |
| sipa | rusty: that would hurt wallets more than just making it opt-in | 20:14 |
| sipa | phantomcircuit: if the intention was not supporting full ber, they could have used 10 times less code | 20:15 |
| phantomcircuit | to be fair i wouldn't suggest they actually fix the DER functions since it's such a mess of macros | 20:15 |
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| sipa | i am pretty sure that the intention was supporting full ber on decoding | 20:15 |
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| phantomcircuit | sipa, i was under the impression that DER is simply the minimal encoding of BER | 20:16 |
| sipa | indeed | 20:16 |
| phantomcircuit | is that wrong? | 20:16 |
| rusty | sipa: by making it opt-in, you're suggesting some kind of "normalized-only" sighash flag? | 20:16 |
| sipa | rusty: i am suggesting bip 62 :) | 20:16 |
| sipa | normalizing sighashes is not avoiding malleability... it is making malleability harmless | 20:17 |
| sipa | bip 62 provides an opt-in way to have consensus rule enforce a single encoding of a transaction | 20:17 |
| sipa | but bip62 does not protect against a sender re-signing | 20:17 |
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| rusty | sipa: Thanks, I missed that nuance when I read "but it cannot be enforced in the network currently because it would break existing wallets." from gmaxwell in earlier logs. | 20:19 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, so it looks like DER is strictly a subset of BER with a bunch of encoding constraints intended to maintain 1:1 value:encoding mapping | 20:20 |
| sipa | yup | 20:21 |
| sipa | D = distinguished | 20:21 |
| phantomcircuit | so what | 20:21 |
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| phantomcircuit | someone implemented BER because they didn't understand the purpose of DER? | 20:22 |
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| sipa | no | 20:22 |
| phantomcircuit | the decoding function names seem to indicate they intended them to use DER at some point | 20:22 |
| sipa | i am pretty sure that the intention was supporting full ber | 20:22 |
| phantomcircuit | that's mad | 20:22 |
| sipa | even if the standard says using der | 20:22 |
| sipa | one would want to support more than strictly necessary on input | 20:23 |
| sipa | that was fashionable at some point | 20:23 |
| sipa | be strict on output, not strict on input | 20:23 |
| rusty | sipa: a-la Postel | 20:24 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, ichy | 20:24 |
| * sipa scratches | 20:24 | |
| phantomcircuit | ichy not itchy... | 20:24 |
| sipa | ah | 20:25 |
| phantomcircuit | i can see that in non security things | 20:25 |
| sipa | yup | 20:25 |
| sipa | but even then | 20:25 |
| sipa | it makes behaviour unpredictable | 20:25 |
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| phantomcircuit | sipa, sure but for example a date field on some website accepting 2015-03-13 and 03/13/15 | 20:26 |
| phantomcircuit | seems reasonable (note not 03/03/15 ...) | 20:27 |
| phantomcircuit | ok so maybe bad example... | 20:27 |
| sipa | even for unix tools etc | 20:28 |
| sipa | it results in differences between different platforms/implementation | 20:29 |
| sipa | at least for DER it was well defined what the "correct" subset was supposed to be | 20:29 |
| sipa | but how many people here have actually read the DER standard? :) | 20:30 |
| rusty | sipa: using DER/BER was weird in the first place though. Two 32-byte integers would have been simpler and more optimal. | 20:31 |
| thufir | why not just serialize the numbers as straight forward as possible? why use their purposely convoluted standards? | 20:31 |
| thufir | heh, exactly! | 20:31 |
| sipa | thufir: ask satoshi | 20:32 |
| sipa | i don't think anyone disagrees with this | 20:32 |
| sipa | but change is ridiculously hard | 20:32 |
| thufir | ok, i'll get around to it ;) | 20:32 |
| thufir | yea, true. so that is the answer then, hehe | 20:32 |
| phantomcircuit | rusty, there is virtually zero documentation on what the openssl signature structure is | 20:33 |
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| sipa | the code is self-documenting! | 20:34 |
| phantomcircuit | (like 90% of openssl) | 20:34 |
| thufir | my purposed DER replacement: http://pastebin.com/VvzyRTPB | 20:34 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, yeah like how the d2i functions are defined by macros at compile time and are roughly impossible to find | 20:34 |
| sipa | thufir: we're not using rsa | 20:34 |
| thufir | yes of course, adapt it. mostly a joke on how silly it is to use der/whatever. | 20:35 |
| sipa | oh, sure, fully agree there | 20:35 |
| thufir | you know, i looked at implementing either TLS or SSH-TRANSPORT in my project. I went with SSH because it took me a couple weeks to do it from scratch from RFCs. Looking at TLS, it would take me a year, and most of that would be implementing the crazy encoding of the certificates. that is practically a turing complete language onto itself. complication is bad, i think put there on purpose. more surface area for bugs. | 20:38 |
| thufir | ie, the biggest surface area of attack in my opinion on TLS is the encoding of the certs. encoding. so change is hard, but, keep that in mind is all. | 20:40 |
| thufir | not saying at all satoshi did. he was pragmatic and chose what tools were available to get 'er done. | 20:43 |
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| phantomcircuit | thufir, SSH-TRANSPORT being the ssh protocol itself or some sort of transit over ssh using the openbsd ssh-client ? | 20:51 |
| phantomcircuit | i wouldn't suggest reimplementing ssh either... | 20:51 |
| thufir | in the rfcs its broken up into SSH-AUTH, SSH-TRANSPORT, and SSH-CONNECT, essentially the SSH auth, encryption, integrety, and multiplexing | 20:52 |
| thufir | basically the best damn p2p protocol now thanks to python asyncio and my python asyncio ssh implementation. | 20:52 |
| thufir | i needed a high performance encrypted p2p library. i didn't want to 'invent it myself' and fail at security, so i followed the rfcs. its cool because i can ssh into my program with openssh :) | 20:53 |
| thufir | i would have used paraminko, but as I said, i needed a high perf one, so async io. twisted is twisted, so yea :) | 20:54 |
| thufir | i'll release it lgpl in a few weeks along with my gpl program | 20:55 |
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| -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: mappum, jbenet, NeatBasis, forrestv, dasource, richardus, wumpus, Krellan, btc___, cfields, (+1 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) | 22:53 | |
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| --- Log closed Sun Apr 12 00:00:50 2015 | ||
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