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| fluffypony | http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/32b0sn/vitalik_buterins_45_page_whitepaper_on_blockchain/cq9ldhl?context=3 | 02:42 |
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| fluffypony | that is a gem of a comment | 02:42 |
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| fluffypony | I can't read this paper | 02:51 |
| fluffypony | adam3us: for your torture: https://github.com/vbuterin/scalability_paper/blob/master/scalability.pdf | 02:51 |
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| fluffypony | on page 35 he at least provides a diagram of the trans-atlantic undersea fibre cable he's making | 02:54 |
| moa | turing complete includes undersea FO cable these days? | 02:56 |
| fluffypony | moa: I'm creatively interpreting the diagram | 02:56 |
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| kanzure | "stakechain" | 07:59 |
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| gmaxwell | fluffypony: same regular sadness; to the extent that I can extract any ideas from the unexplained jargon and symbology I only observe that it's failing to cite similar/identical ideas elsewhere (the reddit title was especially offensive in that light). Its interesting that it talks so much about NXT but yet it seems the authors are unaware that the NXT 'random' generation is cryptographically br | 08:09 |
| gmaxwell | oken. | 08:09 |
| Adlai | if it helps you dismiss vitalik as part of the peanut gallery, he's also tweeting about the price | 08:13 |
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| Adlai | ah great, "Consensus-as-a-service" | 08:40 |
| nsh | everything in moderation, including contempt :) | 08:40 |
| * Adlai charitably interprets that to refer to miners | 08:40 | |
| Adlai | this isn't contempt... strongly worded dismissal? | 08:41 |
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| jcorgan | this is what happens when someone smart but very naive gets drunk on fanboyism | 08:49 |
| Adlai | me or vitalik? or both of us? | 08:53 |
| * Adlai invites the coiner of "consensus-as-a-service" into the decentralization fanboyclub | 08:55 | |
| Adlai | (appears to be by tim swanson) | 08:55 |
| jcorgan | sorry, i was specifically referring to vitalik | 08:56 |
| jgarzik | nsh, lol | 08:56 |
| nsh | (i only meant to suggest that consensus-as-a-service is not necessarily as silly as it may seem) | 08:57 |
| nsh | (but almost certainly it will be silly for a while still yet) | 08:58 |
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| phantomcircuit | Adlai, i can provide consensus as a service | 09:03 |
| phantomcircuit | consensus of one | 09:03 |
| Adlai | Proof of One | 09:03 |
| jgarzik | more seriously, I would like to see various orgs running oracles to provide consensus as a service, of sorts | 09:07 |
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| Adlai | one "problem" is that the underlying technology (bitcoin) offers too many ways to do this, so each actor in that space (and there are some already) do it differently | 09:09 |
| phantomcircuit | jgarzik, the easiest thing to do there is dumb oracles that will sign anything which includes the previous thing they signed | 09:11 |
| jgarzik | Adlai, indeed | 09:16 |
| jgarzik | I was thinking about publishing an open API spec and reference implementation, based off of moxiebox, which offered a standard list of demonstration oracle services | 09:16 |
| jgarzik | then services could take that as a base layer and reference protocol, and improve/compete from there | 09:17 |
| Adlai | is there a bite-sized explanation of why moxiebox is preferable to other virtual machines? | 09:21 |
| * Adlai has never seen this one before | 09:21 | |
| bsm117532 | The one project I've had experience with is Orisi, but I'm unimpressed with their "everyone has to run the same version of the software" philosophy. | 09:21 |
| Adlai | actually i should say, why _moxie_ is preferable | 09:22 |
| bsm117532 | http://orisi.org/ | 09:22 |
| bsm117532 | Seems like development has totally stalled | 09:23 |
| merlincorey | hey I'm probably super late to the party so forgive me for that but... anyone want to share with me the general consensus take on XPY / paycoin / GAW stuff? | 09:23 |
| merlincorey | I mean it all seems pretty clear now | 09:23 |
| Adlai | merlincorey: totally irrelevant here, rather irrelevant to any other #bitcoin-foo channel too | 09:23 |
| merlincorey | Adlai: oh excuse me I saw someone talking about other coins above | 09:23 |
| merlincorey | Adlai: I didn't realize this channel was 100% specific to bitcoins,my apologies | 09:24 |
| Adlai | i'm not sure "100% specific to bitcoins" is lossless compression of /topic | 09:24 |
| andytoshi | Adlai: moxie has come up here several times before; it is preferable because it is very small (like 1kloc of actual state machine) and easy to audit | 09:24 |
| Adlai | ... but neither one covers "geniuses at work" | 09:24 |
| sipa | Adlai: this channel is about research that is potentially applicable to bitcoin in the long term, but not about bitcoin-as-it-exists-today | 09:25 |
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| merlincorey | sipa: thanks for the clarification | 09:25 |
| sipa | it is not about specifics of altcoins either; only about the potential research value :) | 09:25 |
| merlincorey | I work with a few different crypto currencies including bitcoin so I am definitely interested in following and perhaps being involved in future-crypto-coin discussion and news | 09:26 |
| andytoshi | merlincorey: if there is some specific (meaning well-specified) tech in those things it may be on-topic here; i don't think anyone is even aware of what altcoins are out there (except monero i suppose, since almost all their devs are lurking) | 09:27 |
| sipa | but anything related to specific code, exchanges, price value, acceptable, market adoption, ... of any cryptocurrency is offtopic here | 09:27 |
| merlincorey | sipa: right so we're more talking algorithms and such which is right up my alley | 09:27 |
| * merlincorey is a programmer as well | 09:27 | |
| Adlai | sipa: well, on what side of that does mappum's project fall? | 09:27 |
| sipa | Adlai: never heard about mappum | 09:28 |
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| lechuga_ | hmm diagram on pg 35 is impressive | 09:28 |
| * Adlai only knows about mappum and his project from him mentioning it here | 09:29 | |
| Adlai | "A multi-coin wallet that supports trustless cross-chain trading." | 09:29 |
| sipa | i'd say that cross-chain trading algorithms are on topic | 09:29 |
| sipa | a multicoin wallet is not | 09:30 |
| Adlai | i'd say that you're saying cross-chain trading protocols are on topic, and trading algorithms aren't :P | 09:30 |
| jgarzik | Adlai, moxie architecture is small and easy to audit from a simulator (and hopefully circuit) perspective | 09:30 |
| jgarzik | Adlai, it was designed to be small yet well aligned with gcc's (and other compilers) needs | 09:31 |
| Adlai | jgarzik, andytoshi, thanks for the pointers about moxie, i've queued some reading about it | 09:31 |
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| jgarzik | moxiebox is just a sandbox wrapper, that creates a purposefully deterministic and constrained environment. no concept of time, no syscalls other than "map memory" and "exit" | 09:32 |
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| jgarzik | works with the standard GNU toolchain, so pick your favorite language, use gdb, gprof, ... | 09:34 |
| merlincorey | sipa: so to be clear, sharing "my amazing protocol design for doing X with bitcoin" is topical, but "here is my implementation of Z protocol for doing X" is not so much? | 09:35 |
| sipa | merlincorey: depends on X and Z :) | 09:35 |
| merlincorey | sipa: haha okay thanks :P | 09:36 |
| merlincorey | I think I slightly better understand | 09:36 |
| merlincorey | I don't remember how I found this channel but I was like "yeah bitcoin-wizards definitely the place for a bitcoin using wizard such as myself" | 09:36 |
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| Adlai | or for [sorceror's] apprentices who want to avoid flooding | 09:38 |
| bsm117532 | What's the difference between Ethereum's Serpent and Moxiebox? | 09:38 |
| nsh | moxiebox is a reality-based engineering product | 09:38 |
| bsm117532 | And for that matter, Bitcoin's built-in script. | 09:38 |
| bsm117532 | how is Serpent "unreal"? | 09:38 |
| Adlai | bsm117532: the bitcoin stack machine is specified by its source code | 09:39 |
| Adlai | in the world of bitcoin-like consensus, that's fine, but a good specification is more useful than the code implementing it | 09:39 |
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| bsm117532 | And for that matter, why do we need ANOTHER stack machine. There are tons, why not just take one and constrain its stack size and execution cycles? | 09:40 |
| nsh | bsm117532, moxiebox has been implemented. (i don't know what's going on with etherium/serpent, but presumably it's relatively theoretical) | 09:40 |
| Adlai | aha, but it is not a STACK machine! | 09:40 |
| bsm117532 | Just an example, I mean any state machine whatsoever... | 09:40 |
| merlincorey | last I looked into ethereum it was extremely theorhetical | 09:40 |
| merlincorey | for all those advanced features and such | 09:40 |
| bsm117532 | It has 3 implementations. It's hardly theoretical. | 09:40 |
| merlincorey | but they promised the world | 09:40 |
| merlincorey | oh really? | 09:41 |
| jgarzik | moxiebox is just a component -- albeit a working, practical one :) | 09:41 |
| jgarzik | bsm117532, it is tough to find another virtual machine that has all the qualities of: auditable, deterministic, provable, integrated with existing compiler toolchains | 09:43 |
| bsm117532 | What about the JVM? | 09:44 |
| jgarzik | JVM hits 1 of 4 checkboxes | 09:44 |
| bsm117532 | I'm totally talking out my ass assuming one exists that satisfies bitcoin's requirements. But I would find it surprising if one didn't. | 09:44 |
| phantomcircuit | 3MXxfNZoifLYdS8wJTpvfeDNPt9ZWuMAaN | 09:45 |
| phantomcircuit | ffs that's a lot of crap | 09:45 |
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| bsm117532 | In all seriousness, it seems to me that moxiebox and ethereum's serpent have exactly the same goals, no? Why two of them then? | 09:49 |
| bsm117532 | Besides that making your own is fun. ;-) | 09:50 |
| sipa | bsm117532: serpent is a high-level language for writing contracts in; moxiebox is a low-level deterministic environment to run consensus code in | 09:51 |
| bsm117532 | I'm surprised I hadn't heard of moxiebox before. I like the idea. | 09:54 |
| bsm117532 | Is it inteded to have cryptographic primitives as opcodes? | 09:54 |
| sipa | iirc yes | 09:54 |
| sipa | but i'm not up to date | 09:54 |
| bsm117532 | So then I can use it to make garbled circuits for ZKP's. | 09:54 |
| * nsh frowns | 09:55 | |
| nsh | that might be a bit optimistic :) | 09:55 |
| bsm117532 | Reimplmenting AES or ECC in a state machine when your CPU has optimizations for it is painful. | 09:55 |
| jgarzik | bsm117532, close -- yes it will have crypto primitives. probably not opcodes, more like magic jmp addresses etc. | 09:55 |
| gmaxwell | we've talked about moxiebox here a lot; I went and found it looking for something that was morally similar to tinyram | 09:55 |
| gmaxwell | er s/moxiebox/moxie/ | 09:55 |
| sipa | my interest in it is mostly the ability to write consensus code for a blockchain system once, and compile it to moxie... then different platforms could run the consensus system by only reimplementing the very simple moxie interpreter... rather than reimplement the whole consensus logic | 09:56 |
| sipa | (this is a different goal from the oracles that were talked about before) | 09:56 |
| fluffypony | gmaxwell: well my solution was to link to the Ethereal Verses and note that it made more sense | 09:57 |
| jgarzik | yeah it enables several use cases. I also like it for the NaCL-like goals of sharing binary code - with a crypto twist of being provable in general | 09:57 |
| bsm117532 | My interest is in making modified consensus rules. Layers like Counterparty and Colored coins have no sense of consensus, and systems like them need to have their rules as part of the consensus code. | 09:57 |
| jgarzik | you can more safely share binary code | 09:57 |
| sipa | bsm117532: yeah... but SPV incompatible :( | 09:57 |
| bsm117532 | What's SPV incompatible? | 09:58 |
| jgarzik | in a distant future, you will want to be able to prove that your personal droid behaves in a certain way, code-wise | 09:58 |
| sipa | bsm117532: both of those | 09:58 |
| jgarzik | moxiebox is a tiny baby step towards that | 09:58 |
| bsm117532 | CP and Colored coins? | 09:58 |
| sipa | yes... you can't have either of those without running a full node implementing their consensus rules | 09:59 |
| sipa | as the network cannot enforce their consensus rules | 09:59 |
| bsm117532 | Yes. I've half written a blog post in my head about how they're totally broken from a consensus perspective. One rogue node, or one person forgets to upgrade their software, and you have a fork. But there's no way to know that the fork exists and there's no way to fix it. | 10:00 |
| bsm117532 | I should probably air that here... | 10:00 |
| bsm117532 | What's the consensus among the rest of you...do you think systems like Colored Coins, CounterParty, Mastercoin, Coinffeine (etc) which use bitcoin as a public record work at all? I'm of the opinion they don't for the reasons stated above. | 10:02 |
| sipa | i think there is no consensus about them (pun intended) | 10:03 |
| bsm117532 | ;-) | 10:04 |
| jgarzik | bsm117532, I would rather that stuff be off-chain, than on-chain | 10:04 |
| jgarzik | more scalable. the future is 1,000,000 chains. | 10:04 |
| bsm117532 | jgarzik: My statement is quite a bit stronger...they fundamentally don't work, and should be banned from bitcoin for being spam. If they did work, it would be a different story. | 10:05 |
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| jgarzik | <shrug> they work... within bounds. it is a secondary layer, not validated by the bitcoin network. outside actors can create junk that looks like valid entries. | 10:05 |
| sipa | i think they work, and they achieve a different security/scalability tradeoff than alternatives have | 10:05 |
| jgarzik | you need to create a secondary protocol that is provable, and all actors within the secondary system must validate a second set of rules. | 10:06 |
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| sipa | doesn't mean i think they're a good idea, and bitcoin users have all reasons to institute policy to ban them | 10:06 |
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| bsm117532 | But every version of the software must parse the "public record" in exactly the same way and arrive at the same balances. There are absolutely no checks that in that layer, nodes agree. You get whatever node you're talking to thinks is on the ledger. | 10:07 |
| sipa | bsm117532: there are no such checks for bitcoin either | 10:07 |
| jgarzik | bsm117532, RE "same way" -- sure, that's how consensus works | 10:07 |
| jgarzik | bsm117532, every node must parse bitcoin TXs in the precisely 100% same way | 10:08 |
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| bsm117532 | But bitcoin assembles things into the chain and keeps the chain. You don't have to worry about bad txes that were rejected in 2010. | 10:08 |
| jgarzik | bad txs are invisible if you write the code properly | 10:08 |
| bsm117532 | e.g. non-isStandard transactions mined into the chain a long time ago. | 10:09 |
| jgarzik | To a secondary protocol, entries are either 100% valid or they do not exist | 10:09 |
| jgarzik | from the blockchain perspective, there's just more junk/spam in the chain. | 10:09 |
| sipa | bsm117532: we could easily have a rule that says that invalid transactions can be part of the chain, but are ignored | 10:09 |
| bsm117532 | jgarzik: but then the consensus is the code itself, and consensus problems can only be solved by calling up every node operator and telling him to upgrade. It's consensus by dictate. Disagreement cannot be tolerated. | 10:09 |
| sipa | bsm117532: that would turn bitcoin into a full-node-only system, like those you described | 10:09 |
| jgarzik | oh good grief | 10:10 |
| jgarzik | how do you think bitcoin works? | 10:10 |
| sipa | bsm117532: bitcoin's consensus is also the code itself | 10:10 |
| sipa | and it's a huge burden to make it not ever conflict with other versions | 10:10 |
| bsm117532 | bitcoin has a second layer of consensus that's the longest-work-chain, whatever it contains. | 10:11 |
| sipa | bsm117532: incorrect | 10:11 |
| bsm117532 | Ok...why? | 10:11 |
| sipa | bsm117532: it's the longest-work-chain-with-no-invalid-transactions | 10:11 |
| sipa | where 'invalid' is exactly the consensus problem we were talking about | 10:12 |
| sipa | miners do not choose the rules | 10:12 |
| sipa | miners satisfy them | 10:12 |
| sipa | (though a majority of them can decide to enforce stronger rules than the consensus demands; this is called a soft fork) | 10:13 |
| bsm117532 | If 51% of the miners chose a different set of rules...the chain would fork. They do chose the rules. | 10:13 |
| sipa | bsm117532: nope | 10:13 |
| bsm117532 | Then I'm confused. Why | 10:13 |
| sipa | you have a fundamentally wrong model of bitcoin's consensus | 10:13 |
| jgarzik | bsm117532, incorrect. those miners would self-select themselves off the network, as network nodes would ignore their rule changes. | 10:13 |
| sipa | bsm117532: imagine 80% of miners decide they're going to have an everlasting 100 BTC subsidy | 10:13 |
| sipa | bsm117532: as of tomorrow | 10:14 |
| sipa | bsm117532: what would happen? | 10:14 |
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| bsm117532 | Other miners who made that change to their consensus rules would accept block from that 80%. The remaining 20% would form a lower-work fork and reject blocks from the 80%. | 10:15 |
| sipa | bsm117532: what would you and i see? | 10:15 |
| sipa | and everyone who is not one of those 80% miners | 10:15 |
| bsm117532 | We'd see a hard fork. Two chaintips and we'd pick one. If our nodes do not implement the new subsidy rules we'd follow the 20% fork. | 10:16 |
| fluffypony | we'd see blocks solved significantly faster until difficulty readjusts | 10:16 |
| sipa | bsm117532: exactly | 10:16 |
| sipa | bsm117532: from _everyone who matters_'s viewpoint, we'd just see a 5x hashrate drop; done | 10:16 |
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| sipa | bsm117532: _nobody_ has any incentive to implement that rule too, so all those 80% miners have done is created their own little world with forked coins that they cannot spend | 10:17 |
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| sipa | bsm117532: things are different when it's a rule that actual users of the system want | 10:17 |
| sipa | but it's import to see that miners are not privileged here | 10:17 |
| sipa | miners saisfy the rules that the users of the system want | 10:18 |
| bsm117532 | It would be very cool if rule changes could be incorporated (changes on consensus of consensus) | 10:18 |
| sipa | miners are of course users too, but they are not special ones in that | 10:18 |
| sipa | bsm117532: why would you want that? | 10:18 |
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| sipa | or rather | 10:19 |
| bsm117532 | I have in mind extensions to bitcoin with significantly more complex consensus rules. (Use Ethereum as an example) | 10:19 |
| sipa | who would have authority to change them? | 10:19 |
| bsm117532 | Good question. But let's make a toy example. | 10:19 |
| dgenr8 | the 80% now have a chain that requires ~40% to attack. The 20% can be attacked by ~10%. As a user, I would ponder that. | 10:19 |
| bsm117532 | Let's say we issued IBM stock as a blockchain, and they had a stock split. | 10:19 |
| sipa | bsm117532: so start with a blockchain that supports issuer-controlled stock split | 10:20 |
| sipa | bsm117532: no need to _change_ the blockchain's rules for every user of the system | 10:20 |
| bsm117532 | Not necessarily, if you think of every possible use case at the outset. :-/ | 10:20 |
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| jgarzik | stocks and bonds are almost always _ultimately_ controlled by the issuer at a trust level. the blockchain is simply an ownership record. stock splits are easy. | 10:20 |
| sipa | bsm117532: sure, but it shouldn't be IBM that can change the rules for everyone | 10:21 |
| sipa | bsm117532: _everyone_ should agree to changes of the rules | 10:21 |
| bsm117532 | Well, if it's their chain it might be. | 10:21 |
| sipa | bsm117532: then why do you have a chain at all? | 10:22 |
| sipa | bsm117532: they can just publish a list of records | 10:22 |
| sipa | the point in making it a chain is so others can verify it | 10:22 |
| sipa | but if the issuer and the one setting the rules are the same, that's pointless | 10:22 |
| bsm117532 | Yes, for this toy example there are obviously other ways to do it. | 10:23 |
| sipa | we're talking about consensus systems | 10:23 |
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| sipa | if one party gets to set the rules, there is no consensus to speak of | 10:24 |
| sipa | if there are more parties involved, they all need to agree | 10:24 |
| sipa | and there is always the inherent possibility of asking every party to upgrade their software because they've all realized they want different rules | 10:24 |
| sipa | this is NOT something you need to implement in the system itself | 10:25 |
| kanzure | jgarzik: it is too bad that the "miners self-selecting themselves out of the network" outcome is not more obvious to others. i think that certain mining actively is more obviously falling under this situation, like someone mining a million blocks at a low difficulty :-). | 10:25 |
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| bsm117532 | sipa: "if one party gets to set the rules, there is no consensus to speak of" ... github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin sets the rules, so there's no consensus to speak of. | 10:30 |
| bsm117532 | Interesting dichotomy | 10:30 |
| jcorgan | hey, i know, we need a dark blockchain of internet of things that implements consensus-as-a-service that will result in universal wealth for all | 10:31 |
| jcorgan | i'll code that right up | 10:31 |
| sipa | bsm117532: i really _really_ hope you are wrong | 10:32 |
| kanzure | bsm117532: no, that is a misunderstnading of how bitcoin works | 10:32 |
| sipa | bsm117532: that if we would implement a rule that is the least bit controversial, people would refuse to run it | 10:32 |
| kanzure | bsm117532: github just hosts repositories dude | 10:32 |
| sipa | bsm117532: also, if the change is not carefully controlled, it just results in a fork | 10:32 |
| bsm117532 | Of course, I'm just being provocative. :-P | 10:33 |
| sipa | ok | 10:33 |
| kanzure | you are being dumb | 10:33 |
| fluffypony | ^^ | 10:33 |
| bsm117532 | And you wonder why you have trouble finding bitcoin devs... | 10:34 |
| kanzure | because people are wrong about bitcoin? | 10:34 |
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| bsm117532 | Because sipa leaves the room... | 10:35 |
| bsm117532 | And people get called dumb. I'm getting used to it. | 10:35 |
| fluffypony | bsm117532: I say dumb things all the time | 10:35 |
| fluffypony | I go down roads of thought for days and only realise at the end that my initial assumption was flawed | 10:35 |
| kanzure | no, i was correcting "provocative". that should be obvious. | 10:35 |
| bsm117532 | I'll admit to that too, but not gonna call anyone dumb in a public forum. | 10:35 |
| fluffypony | "being dumb" isn't something to be ashamed about | 10:36 |
| bsm117532 | anyway, thanks for the chat, I leaned something, I think. | 10:36 |
| fluffypony | as long as you can recognise it, or have it pointed out, and adjust your thinking accordingly | 10:36 |
| kanzure | i suspect that the reason why there are not more developers is because it is actually quite challenging to understand how bitcoin works | 10:39 |
| bsm117532 | That's true as well. It has the drawback of requiring knowledge from several disparate fields: distributed systems, cryptography, economics... | 10:39 |
| bsm117532 | jgarzik: So given the above conversation, I'm now confused about what moxiebox is for. Can you enlighten me? | 10:40 |
| kanzure | consensus sandboxing | 10:40 |
| bsm117532 | That implies multiple consenses | 10:41 |
| kanzure | every node executes consensus verification, yes | 10:41 |
| kanzure | and certain nodes can fall out of consesus due to bugs, poor consensus rules, etc. | 10:41 |
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| bsm117532 | Moxiebox seems to lead logically toward having a hash of the consensus code in a block, which implies there could be multiple versions of the consensus code. And led to me thinking (above) about consensus on the consensus code. | 10:43 |
| kanzure | if you hash the bytecode you get back a hash that starts with the letters "BITCOINBITCOINBITCOIN". that's how you know it's bitcoin. | 10:44 |
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| instagibbs | mine keeps hashing to BITCOIN2.0BITCOIN2.0BITCOIN2.0 | 11:01 |
| fluffypony | I thought it was WEB3.0? | 11:02 |
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| dgenr8 | security rests totally on ~50% not organizing and maintaining an unfair fork in the first place. if 99% of mining were organized, of course they could change the rules of the secure PoW network. they would own it. | 11:14 |
| dgenr8 | this has not happened because satoshi's guess was right: no cynical majority of investment, wanting an unfair system, has yet emerged | 11:15 |
| bsm117532 | They cynical types who want unfair systems, want the unfairness all to themselves. | 11:15 |
| dgenr8 | there aren't enough of them. security has been achieved by putting all investment in one pool and learning that the humanity behind it chooses a fair system | 11:16 |
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| jgarzik | bsm117532, firstly, if it wasn't clear from the above, moxiebox is separate & distinct from bitcoin | 11:38 |
| jgarzik | bsm117532, moxiebox is intended to be helpful for situations where you want to be able to prove and repeat execution of some arbitrary code | 11:39 |
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| bsm117532 | jgarzik: do you intend bitcoin's consensus rules to be a future "example application"? | 12:16 |
| jgarzik | bsm117532, no | 12:17 |
| jgarzik | not directly | 12:17 |
| jgarzik | indirectly via contracts and external actions, sure | 12:17 |
| jgarzik | it is theoretically possible in an alt-coin of your own design | 12:18 |
| bsm117532 | Or for sidechain rules? | 12:18 |
| bsm117532 | Both parties include the consensus rules into the transaction when they bail-in to the sidechain... | 12:19 |
| jgarzik | bsm117532, sure. sidechains are for, in part, experimenting with "bitcoin 2.0" new features, without breaking bitcoin 1.0. You could create an OP_MOXIE that executes moxiebox code. | 12:19 |
| jgarzik | as an aside, two features I would love to add to bitcoin down the road are | 12:20 |
| jgarzik | - active addresses | 12:20 |
| jgarzik | - mailboxes (small bits of storage, with some sort of decaying economic model attached) | 12:21 |
| jgarzik | that's my useful takeaway from intheoreum | 12:21 |
| bsm117532 | I'm afraid you'll have to elaborate on both of those. ;-) | 12:21 |
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| jgarzik | those are foundational concepts that ethereum provides, to enable whiz bang smart contract shit | 12:22 |
| bsm117532 | I need to allocate some time to spend more with Ethereum... they canceled their meetup here in NYC last week. :-/ | 12:23 |
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| kanzure | https://github.com/telehash/blockname | 18:41 |
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| adlai | kanzure: so, i read the readme. can i use this to register a domain with miners rather than corporations blessed by icann? | 18:43 |
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| * adlai finds the linked https://github.com/williamcotton/blockcast a bit more interesting | 18:44 | |
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| bsm117532 | adlai: It will only work if you're running their resolver, not for others on the internet at large. | 18:46 |
| adlai | so... "cute"? | 18:46 |
| bsm117532 | There's also factom.org | 18:46 |
| kanzure | this is similar to sbp's proposal | 18:48 |
| adlai | kanzure: which proposal? | 18:52 |
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| kanzure | hmm not sure, that may not have been public | 18:57 |
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| StephenM347 | Hi all, I emailed about this a few days back: https://github.com/scmorse/bitcoin-misc/blob/master/sighash_proposal.md. I'm thinking of either dropping SIGHASH_WITHOUT_TX_VERSION or merging SIGHASH_WITHOUT_PREV_VALUE and SIGHASH_WITHOUT_PREV_SCRIPTPUBKEY together to get it down to 16 flags, for a 2 byte nHashType. Does anyone have any suggestions on which would be better? | 19:20 |
| StephenM347 | Or if it would be better to just leave the sighash flag at a full 4 byte int | 19:20 |
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| adlai | StephenM347: #bitcoin-dev | 19:22 |
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| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent-based_model | 20:13 |
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| gwillen | adlai: based on the content it's further discussion of stuff from this channel, I think it's probably ok here | 21:51 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Apr 13 00:00:51 2015 | ||
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