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stonecoldpat | hi, i finally got some work on preprint, it is a "cute" application to do key exchange over bitcoin using the random nonce in an ecdsa signature, ill post it here since it should only really interest people here, let me know if you have any thoughts, http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/308.pdf | 05:51 |
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gmaxwell | stonecoldpat: the unfortunate part of that approach is that it imposes on users to use particular scriptpubkey forms which are compatible with that. It's really bad to say "you can't use scheme X for securing your coins, without losing your ability to pay/communicate/etc with person Y" (We'd proposed something vaguely similar in here for whats now called stealth addresses, where you use the R as | 05:56 |
gmaxwell | the public point for the ECDH in derriving an ephemeral payee address; and discarded it because of this) | 05:57 |
gmaxwell | If you're just trying to authenticate a communication channel, you can extract a scriptpubkey from the blockchain, and use it to sign a new key negoiation. This then avoids any of that ugly binding; though it does require transmitting a singnature and new nonce; along with whatever is being communicated. | 05:58 |
gmaxwell | (either R or the prior users pubkey can be used; both have the same binding problem) | 05:59 |
gmaxwell | Another example of the binding problem is "you can't use your hardware wallet to secure your coins because it (correctly!) won't let you get to the nonce, as that would let the private key escape the device" | 06:00 |
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stonecoldpat | gmaxwell: the ake supports any scriptpubkey that requires an ecdsa sig (which is the most used one atm), so using two signatures on the blockchain you can set up the secure end-to-end communication channel. If hardware wallets were updated then this should still work with them since the wallet could just pop out the shared secret (and not necessarily the nonce or private key) if it | 06:18 |
stonecoldpat | were given the owners signature & partners signature. The non-interactive protocol would be quicker than signing + nonce approach, but the signing + nonce approach is sort of similar to the second protocol proposed (YAK that uses a schnorr zkp in it) except as you mention we have that binding that we are using for the authentication. | 06:18 |
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stonecoldpat | also this could give some basis to using r for stealth addresses (id need to look into that a bit more), since that is based on a diffie-hellman anyway | 06:24 |
stonecoldpat | not that you would have too or anything, but it just opens an option that may be useful at some point | 06:25 |
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gmaxwell | stonecoldpat: yes, most used one; and then no one can ever upgrade to anything else. :( Also, w/ multisig doing that may blow the security policy (if it's just picking one of them to use) | 06:31 |
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gmaxwell | wrt hardware wallet giving an arbritary echd/shared secret oracle to an attacker doesn't dound especially wise. :) | 06:32 |
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gmaxwell | stonecoldpat: 'quicker' is kinda meh. I mean, one can do thousands of dsa signatures per second on a desktop. There are not that many counterparties; and constraining what kind of keys people we interact with can use is really a poor tradeoff for roughly doubling key agrrement speed. | 06:34 |
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gmaxwell | As a total aside that sighash stuff that doesn't cover the inputs makes a covenant possible, and also makes it possible for people to always sign with R that doesn't equal r. | 06:36 |
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stonecoldpat | gmaxwell: i wouldnt be pushing for it to be included anywhere just yet, we could be using schnorr next year for all we know - but it is useful for anyone who wanted to do ake today. the multi-sig one would depend on how you think of authentication, do you care to talk to any one of the escrows or a specific one? in our case its the people involved in the transaction which may include | 06:43 |
stonecoldpat | the escrows (since they had to authorize it). In the hardware wallet case if someone already has your wallet to perform that attack it may be more worrying than having that option - although if they are just getting a diffie-hellman secret then you can do that without the hardware wallet already - it is part of the security sketch, what do you mean by always signing with R that doesn't | 06:43 |
stonecoldpat | equal r? | 06:43 |
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gmaxwell | stonecoldpat: There isn't any lack of clarity there: You can authetnciate with scriptPubkey X if you can provide an input that returns true for it. | 06:45 |
gmaxwell | stonecoldpat: breaking inside a scriptpubkey is ill defined, it's like saying "hey I signed this message using these bits of your private key"; it may cause a total security failure. | 06:48 |
gmaxwell | stonecoldpat: "always sign with R that doesn't equal r"; I'm referring to the ability make signatures that always fail with your r using scheme. | 06:49 |
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gmaxwell | Another general issue is that data in the blockchain isn't an identity. Thats an example of the from address fallacy. (see also: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/From_address ) | 06:52 |
stonecoldpat | do you mean choosing a 'k' such that the R public key wraps around the modulus n? so kG = (x,y) mod n, and that 'k' is big enough to actually obscure the relationship of k and 'r'? | 06:53 |
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gmaxwell | stonecoldpat: that has nothing to do with the magnitude of 'k'. There are up to four possible points R (R == kG) for each r (r = R.xy()[0] mod order). | 06:55 |
gmaxwell | But their values are unpredictable; though using signature recovery one can just directly pick a pubkey to work with a chosen [r,s,m] tuple. | 06:56 |
gmaxwell | which I think many violate the security of you scheme somewhat (or at least its use for some applications). A ECDH (or schnorr, for that matter) signature does not actually prove knowledge of any discrete logs if the pubkey is up to the attacker to select freely. | 06:58 |
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stonecoldpat | do you have an example/context of what you mean about being be mapped to four co-ordinates? We assume that kG = R = (x,y), that y is pre-decided, so as stated in the paper it would always be kG = (x,1). | 07:16 |
stonecoldpat | if the k in the signature is kG = (x,0) then we use the negation of -k for the key exchange | 07:16 |
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gmaxwell | stonecoldpat: yea, you allow allow a limited amount of ECDH malleability, as you alias k and -k. (I note you haven't mentioned anything about curves with cofactor != 1). You still have another possible value for some points the wrapping mod, you know this and mention it. | 07:35 |
gmaxwell | and what I was pointing out that I can create a transaction which uses someone elses r; e.g. in order to replay some messages. | 07:36 |
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stonecoldpat | fair point, i should be explicit to say cofactor == 1. ill answer the other points when i get home, i've got to run now, but thank you for the questions! | 07:57 |
gmaxwell | see ya | 08:00 |
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* andy-logbot is logging | 08:54 | |
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andytoshi | hi channel | 09:01 |
gmaxwell | hi andytoshi | 09:01 |
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andytoshi | rust update: rust-secp256k1 now has 100% unit test coverage, rust-bitcoin is still a mess. but good progress this week :) | 09:10 |
gmaxwell | andytoshi: fun timing, I was just looking up to see what you were doing there. What does 100% unit test coverage mean? | 09:16 |
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jtimon | that all the code is at least executed once when running the unittest? | 09:37 |
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antgreen | Hey - I was just reading the logs and was happy to see moxie being discussed yesterday. It's been quiet, but it sounds like people are still hacking with it? Or planning to? | 10:46 |
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stonecoldpat | gmaxwell: sorry had to dash earlier, thought i was late for dog-groom appointment but appears its tomorrow... anyway you the relay you mention should not work IIRC, when you verify a signature (r,s) - you end up with r = kG, so without knowledge of k you wouldn't be able to produce a valid s that will match someone else's r to do a relay | 10:49 |
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stonecoldpat | sorry kG = (x,y) then you heck if x = r from (r,s). its the last step of the verification protocol | 10:50 |
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stonecoldpat | my typing was terrible lemme fix it, anyway the relay attack you mention should not work IIRC, when you verify a signature (r,s), the final step of the verification is to check kG = (x,y), x = r from (r,s). The kG is produced from the 's' component of the (r,s). So an adversary would not be able to produce a valid signature (r,s) to pull off the attack without knowing k or d.***** | 11:07 |
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gmaxwell | stonecoldpat: thats not correct. | 11:10 |
gmaxwell | stonecoldpat: go explain http://www.blockstream.com/half-a-puzzle/ to yourself. | 11:11 |
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kanzure | "Prototype: stochastic cooperation in the One-Shot Prisoner's Dilemma in probabilistic programming" https://gist.github.com/kanzure/6950227cae0e0615f373 (not my work) | 11:13 |
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andytoshi | gmaxwell: i run the unit test binary (produced by `cargo test`) through kcov; it says all but one instrumented line is covered (and that line is a `}` so i guess this is a bug) | 12:18 |
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andytoshi | gmaxwell: there are some LOC that are not instrumented, i think the tool is not counting it, so this is not totally accurate ... but i think i've hit every error path | 12:19 |
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stonecoldpat | gmaxwell: got the sigs to verify (after some time) but ill need some sleep so ill chat to you tomorrow if i make progress on those puzzles | 13:50 |
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gwillen | belcher: registering potential nicksquats? | 14:21 |
belcher | yep, a scammer was pming people apparently | 14:21 |
gwillen | yikes | 14:21 |
* helo makes a list of the benign permutations | 14:23 | |
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arubi | beιcher | 14:30 |
arubi | (hehe) | 14:30 |
belcher | is that iota ? | 14:31 |
arubi | yea :) | 14:31 |
belcher | more likely i need cyrillic | 14:31 |
arubi | nicks are probably in ansi\ascii ? | 14:32 |
arubi | but for forums.. yea | 14:32 |
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arubi | well, this is why we have pki | 14:34 |
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