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| gmaxwell | http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/349xgg/sf_bitcoin_devs_seminar_a_deep_dive_with_bitcoin/ < looks like the youtube video of my talk is up. | 11:19 |
|---|---|---|
| helo | ty | 11:21 |
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| hulkhogan_ | +1 | 11:25 |
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| gmaxwell | [OT] my blackbox optimization contest submission finished today; wish me luck. :) | 14:35 |
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| amiller | goodluck | 14:40 |
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| nsh | i hope you optimized a friend black-box and not one of those ones that turns us all into gray goo | 14:53 |
| nsh | *friendly | 14:53 |
| gmaxwell | "in soviet russia, black box optimizes you" http://bbcomp.ini.rub.de/ I had fun with it, I was thinking about making a bitcoin version of it where you pay bitcoin to play (and then the bitcoin becomes the payoff prize). | 14:58 |
| helo | sounds fun | 15:06 |
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| instagibbs | eh I can't really get off my butt to do free work without knowing anything about the underlying problem :P If you want to kaggle, OTOH, hit me up. | 15:14 |
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| hulkhogan_ | cool | 17:22 |
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| hulkhogan_ | haha - one of the FAQs is "which functions are inside the black box?" | 17:29 |
| gmaxwell | I'm sure people asked; it's the norm in for benchmarks in this space is that someone will publish a set of functions and you self-report your results. (If this sounds stupid, you've probably not been exposed to enough academia. :) ) | 17:31 |
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| hulkhogan_ | haha it seems silly, especially with the title of the competition being what it is, at least :P | 17:34 |
| hulkhogan_ | in principle its quite interesting, so you're searching for the best point under some budget | 17:35 |
| hulkhogan_ | it makes sense to compete i think, seeing as how there's a lot of field/point math in bitcoin | 17:35 |
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| bsm117532 | moa: this is utter bullshit: http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1525871/russian-scientist-makes-a-breakthrough-quantum-protection-for-physical-objects-is-created | 17:52 |
| bsm117532 | The premise is that there's so much data that you can't possibly read it to copy it. The "quantum" business is garbage, remove that word from the press release. | 17:55 |
| bsm117532 | I love PR Newswire. "We let anyone write anything!" | 17:55 |
| gmaxwell | bsm117532: ah some of the functions in the PHC contest were going for supporting something like that. E.g. you have some random key you store safely offline; and use it with a CSPRNG to build a many-many-TB pseudorandom random pad you store online. To authenticate a password the middle of the expensive KDF function requires a lookup in your database. | 17:57 |
| gmaxwell | So now it's "infeasable" (in the kind of very limiting armwaving sense that blockchain reorgs are infeasable) for an attacker to steal your password database. | 17:58 |
| bsm117532 | Let me tell you about a memory-hard PoW algorithm... | 17:58 |
| bsm117532 | It's not a bad idea if you have a source of many-many-TB data. But if it's all generated from a single seed...well... | 17:59 |
| phantomcircuit | bsm117532, you throw away the seed obviously | 17:59 |
| bsm117532 | It's effectively a book cipher. | 17:59 |
| gmaxwell | well the point there is that the seed can be kept totally offline and only used to repair your data (or, indeed, could just not exist if you're feeling especially brave) | 18:00 |
| gmaxwell | I'm skeptical of the value, comapred, to say ... geting a couple $25 yubikeys and putting them in HMAC mode and loading them with some key you keep offline. | 18:00 |
| gmaxwell | Then the yubis are your authentication oracle and cannot be stolen (short of compromising SHA1) in a _much_ stronger sense than your super expensive petabyte codebook. | 18:01 |
| bsm117532 | I agree. I don't see the value relative to offline keys. Online but-hard-to-find? Still attackable, while offline is not. | 18:01 |
| gmaxwell | bsm117532: well something needs to be online to authenticate users. You just don't want the online thing to be online stealable. | 18:02 |
| * Eliel is wondering how come we're still using password authentication schemes when we have asymmetric cryptography that would be much better in many ways. | 18:02 | |
| * bsm117532 groans in agreement. | 18:02 | |
| gmaxwell | Eliel: users aren't so good at managing keys. | 18:02 |
| bsm117532 | If I could destroy the fucking password mania... | 18:03 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, hsm's are much more difficult to deploy at small scale | 18:03 |
| bsm117532 | We have a serious UI and user education problem with any other (better) scheme. | 18:03 |
| gmaxwell | I mean, don't look at me, all my personal stuff is not password auth. | 18:03 |
| phantomcircuit | nobody sells dedicated servers with them installed | 18:03 |
| phantomcircuit | rents* | 18:03 |
| Eliel | you could even have a system that looks like password auth but actually transforms the password into a key and :P | 18:04 |
| bsm117532 | PBKDF... | 18:04 |
| phantomcircuit | Eliel, i actually implemented that in javascript once | 18:04 |
| bsm117532 | It's great for making bad keys. | 18:04 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: this is why I suggested a yubikey. ... but yea; I mean, if you have so little control over your hardware that you can't plug a usb widget into it... welll.. (Also: licensing dongles are still common in the windows world, I bet any hosting operaiton will let you plug something into the USB on a didi) | 18:04 |
| phantomcircuit | it was god aweful slow but probably marginally more secure than standard https + plaintext password | 18:04 |
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| phantomcircuit | note: marginally | 18:05 |
| gmaxwell | Eliel: thats still password auth, just in disguise. If you want to see actually superpowered password auth, what you want is something like SRP. | 18:05 |
| Eliel | gmaxwell: well, as long as that's just an interface for luddites who want to keep using passwords :P | 18:06 |
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| gmaxwell | Unfortunately, lucent's patent fund campaign has basically blocked PAKE deployments for over a decade; though the patents they were harassing people with have recently expired. | 18:06 |
| bsm117532 | There were several hardware wallet vendors at the Inside Bitcoins NYC conference that just finished...intriguing stuff. | 18:06 |
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| Eliel | gmaxwell: ... you mean we've got patents to blame for not having proper authentication mechanisms in widespread use yet? | 18:08 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, PAKE? | 18:08 |
| phantomcircuit | too many acronyms in this space... | 18:08 |
| gmaxwell | Among other reasons, yes. I mean, some have theorized that the anti-pake patent nonsense is state sponsored, but who knows. | 18:08 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: password authenticated key exchange. | 18:08 |
| Eliel | wouldn't surprise me if it was state sponsored. | 18:09 |
| phantomcircuit | ah | 18:09 |
| bsm117532 | I know a fellow who likes to go on about how the government and banks already have a ton of tech for electronic money that they're sitting on. I'd dismiss him as a crank if I didn't know better, but I don't know any details. Maybe PAKE is part of it? | 18:09 |
| Eliel | but then again, there's a reasonable chance it's just due to misguided profit incentives too. | 18:10 |
| gmaxwell | Eliel: SRP is really turning your password into a public key and authenticating with that; but it does so in such a way that if the server didn't know the pubkey to begin with, the server doesn't learn it. (likewise someone watching the channel never learns it); so even if the key is derrived from a crappy secret they don't learn anything that helps them grind it. | 18:10 |
| gmaxwell | Eliel: hard to say; the patent fud stuff never earned them a drop of profit as far as I can tell; people just said "okay, we won't deploy that then". | 18:10 |
| bsm117532 | gmaxwell: that's neat. Zero Knowledge Authentication? | 18:10 |
| gmaxwell | And a side effect is that if the server was the only one to know your password-hash (other than you), then the protocol mutually authenticates the server to you-- with no CA infrastructure. | 18:11 |
| Eliel | what's SRP short for? | 18:11 |
| gmaxwell | Eliel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Remote_Password_protocol | 18:11 |
| gmaxwell | It can be implemented over EC groups too, which would make it a bit more communications efficient. | 18:12 |
| bsm117532 | Hmmmm "This means that an attacker who steals the server data cannot masquerade as the client unless they first perform a brute force search for the password." -- So the list of commonly used passwords will still come in handy. Still need to move away from passwords. | 18:13 |
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| gmaxwell | bsm117532: sure; it's strictly better but not unboundedly so. You can use the same protocol with strongly generated keys instead; nothing requires a dumb-ass user 'password'. :) | 18:15 |
| gmaxwell | its just _IF_ you've happened to use a dumb password; at least someone impersonating the server or sniffing the wire learns nothing that helps them. | 18:16 |
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| bsm117532 | It's an improvement. But working around bad user habits is a losing game in the long run. We need to teach users better habits. | 18:17 |
| gmaxwell | I mean, bitcoin had no password based keys anywhere; and an orgy of 'wallet innovators' (as I heard someone call them) were quick to produce things like brainwallet and BIP39 to 'fix' that surplus of security. :) | 18:18 |
| bsm117532 | hey now, I'm a bip39 fan. I can remember a 12 word passphrase and so can most people (+ HD wallets...) | 18:19 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, so the question becomes why isn't SRP implemented in browsers? | 18:19 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: patent fud. | 18:20 |
| bsm117532 | The person I was referring to above is on the IETF and W3C and claims they have something up their sleeve to replace the centralized CA mess. SRP sounds like a likely candidate. | 18:20 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: because lucent went around and made people concerned that _all_ PAKE schemes were patented; even though a competent review says there is no chance SRP violates the lucent patent, once there is a cloud people won't bother. | 18:20 |
| bsm117532 | I've long been bothered that no one uses user certificates for anything... | 18:22 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, :| | 18:22 |
| phantomcircuit | bsm117532, it was non-trivial to run a CA until relatively recently | 18:22 |
| phantomcircuit | the only tools for it were openssl and that was... | 18:23 |
| Eliel | bsm117532: I hear they're a PITA to work with. | 18:23 |
| phantomcircuit | not fun | 18:23 |
| bsm117532 | That's a UI problem, that no one put any effort into fixing. | 18:23 |
| Eliel | (or there's someone blocking the fix with enough force that those who wanted to fix it gave up) | 18:24 |
| bsm117532 | CA's only half-authenticate. They (centrally) authenticate one side (the server) leaving the other side open to attack... | 18:24 |
| gmaxwell | It doesn't help that the creator of SRP's instution (Stanford) itself patented some largely pointless extension (SRP-Z); and then didn't make the licensing clear for a long time. | 18:25 |
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| moa | TIL: patent concern trolls exist | 18:46 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: watching your SF Bitcoin Devs talk. Wow. | 19:13 |
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| bsm117532 | I watched it a few days ago, that was a great talk gmaxwell | 19:35 |
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| rusty | Yes, cogent and accessible; I've not seen anything like it wrt. bitcoin privacy. | 19:35 |
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| gmaxwell | I need to watch it so I can transcribe it; I actually forgot to mention a whole fork of my argument there. | 19:59 |
| bsm117532 | I think every talk I've ever given I forgot to give an entire fork. :-/ | 20:06 |
| bsm117532 | OTOH you have a better sense of the flow of an argument "in the moment". I think it's more important to tell a cohesive intelligible story than to hit all the forks I have floating in my head. I try not to let the forgotten forks bother me. | 20:09 |
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| hulkhogan_ | IIRC it started to get a little pessimistic when talking about the wallet signing stuff, but i think the conclusions were sensible ie. avoid using js for crypto if you can, (or use lots of strict/linting to get 'basically' type-safety) | 20:35 |
| gmaxwell | yea, I wanted to mention e.g. typesafe languages that compile to JS and such; though I don't know anything about them except that they exist... but they're probably interesting. | 20:37 |
| hulkhogan_ | yea | 20:38 |
| hulkhogan_ | it was a insightful chunk of time for sure... i enjoyed the 'spurious beginnings' origin story as well ;p | 20:39 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, just place an assert typeof(a) == typeof(b) before every expression | 22:49 |
| phantomcircuit | problem "solved" | 22:49 |
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