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| lmatteis | is anybody fluent in DHT networks around here? | 00:34 |
|---|---|---|
| lmatteis | i can't seem to find a channel where to discuss p2p related issues | 00:34 |
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| bedeho | lmatteis: #webtorrent and #ipfs has a bunch of people who are quite knowledgable about that sort of stuff, they may be able to help you | 01:37 |
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| Adlai | Luke-Jr's comment in #bitcoin-dev makes me wonder: does bitcoin's game-theoretic security model (which afaik hasn't yet been formalized) rely upon no single actor being able to devalue the currency by shorting? | 11:00 |
| Taek | Adlai: I don't feel confident about analysis, but | 11:01 |
| Taek | shorting is a market | 11:02 |
| Taek | if you are able to short Bitcoin, that means that someone is selling you that short | 11:02 |
| Taek | and if you crash the market, you are effectively taking money from them | 11:02 |
| Taek | so if it becomes known that someone is buying massive amounts of short volume on Bitcoin | 11:02 |
| Taek | people are going to get suspicious | 11:02 |
| Taek | that's going to hinder your ability to abuse shorting to acquire enough economic power to launch a 51% attack | 11:04 |
| * Taek waves hands furiously | 11:04 | |
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| Adlai | the action in question is that of a stakeholder selling 20mb-block-bitcoin for 1mb-block-bitcoin, to "vote with his money" for greater investment of infrastructure towards securing his preferred chain | 11:06 |
| Adlai | who is working on (or knows of draft versions of) a formal description of the game-theoretic model? | 11:08 |
| Taek | if a significant number of people are split between 20mb-coin and 1mb-coin, it'll be a disaster even if both chains are secure | 11:09 |
| Taek | it doesn't seem that different to me from 'voting with your money' with regards to altcoins though | 11:11 |
| Adlai | the same argument could be made about any large holder in a liquid cryptocurrency; and by that argument, the "one dollar, one vote" election has chosen bitcoin | 11:11 |
| Taek | I would agree with that | 11:12 |
| * Adlai is searching for a more nuanced/precise statement than "bitcoin needs to be valuable to be useful" | 11:12 | |
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| gavinandresen | Taek: I mentioned “the goldfinger attack” (profit by making a massive short bet) to some insanely smart people at MIT, including a couple of economists. Their question was the same as mine: why would it work in the Bitcoin world, if it doesn’t work in stock markets or financial markets? | 11:17 |
| Taek | I agree, but one potential answer is that stock markets are regulated | 11:18 |
| Taek | IE you can't do inside trading | 11:18 |
| Taek | that might change the mechanics substantially | 11:18 |
| zooko | Taek: haha. | 11:18 |
| yoleaux | 30 Apr 2015 17:29Z <kanzure> zooko: nice meeting you :-) | 11:18 |
| yoleaux | 30 Apr 2015 17:35Z <kanzure> zooko: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/venture-deals.pdf | 11:18 |
| zooko | kanzure: It was a pleasure! | 11:19 |
| gavinandresen | Taek: … and bitcoin markets are regulated, because they intersect the banking system. | 11:19 |
| zooko | kanzure: thanks! I've read that book, it was a good one. | 11:19 |
| zooko | Taek: were you serious when you said you can't do insider trading? | 11:19 |
| zooko | In normal stock markets, etc? | 11:19 |
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| kanzure | gavinandresen: i don't know if you should defer to them simply because they have been called smart by others :-) let's be more careful | 11:21 |
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| zooko | gavinandresen: also Bitcoin is a much smaller, shallower market than those others. | 11:21 |
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| gavinandresen | zooko: there are plenty of small, shallow markets for tiny stocks. Yet we don’t see people shorting them then burning down their factories..... | 11:22 |
| kanzure | overstock.com would love to disagree | 11:23 |
| Adlai | gavinandresen: because bitcoin needs to be valuable to be secure. a penny stock certificate is just as difficult to counterfeit as BRKA | 11:23 |
| zooko | gavinandresen: Hm. | 11:23 |
| gavinandresen | at least, not here in the US. except for owners pulling insurance fraud…. | 11:23 |
| kanzure | there are many stocks that get shorted far beyond the actual supply of that stock | 11:23 |
| kanzure | "the goldfinger attack" was not necessarily about profiting by selling shorts or whatever | 11:23 |
| zooko | gavinandresen: I don't know -- I'm certainly not one of those smart people -- but is it that there is the *potential* for massive amounts of money to come in to | 11:24 |
| zooko | bust your insincere short? | 11:24 |
| gavinandresen | In any case, if you’re worried about ‘goldfinger attacks’ — okey dokey. Look forward to your patch that fixes that potential problem. | 11:24 |
| zooko | Even if that rarely happens in practice? | 11:24 |
| * kanzure is not okay with that argument from authority above | 11:26 | |
| zooko | I'm not saying that smart people know. I'm saying I don't know. ;-) | 11:29 |
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| jgarzik | kanzure, slapped that book on my Kindle, thanks | 11:49 |
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| kanzure | jgarzik: sorry for forgetting about you, whoops | 12:18 |
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| warren | Have there been any followup papers on the size of the transactions of 2 way pegging when going back to BTC? | 14:30 |
| * Adlai is not okay with the "argument from disinterest" | 14:32 | |
| * dgenr8 fully expects massive pumps (and dumps) in bitcoin as big fiat gets going | 14:33 | |
| livegnik | http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/pdf/20150505.pdf | 14:33 |
| Adlai | right, because until now it's been "flat as a pancake" (as the cross-country coach said of his home track) | 14:33 |
| * Adlai isn't sure what to call this "attack", but it should have a different name... bond villains never competed over hashpower | 14:34 | |
| dgenr8 | ability to hold your own keys is like taking delivery of known genuine stock certificates in seconds. i wonder if wall st is ready for that | 14:37 |
| * Adlai isn't sure "stock certificates" exist anymore, any more than ghosts, or the laws of nature | 14:42 | |
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| --- Log opened Tue May 05 22:35:03 2015 | ||
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 22:35 | |
| -!- Topic set by andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] [Fri Aug 22 14:51:37 2014] | 22:35 | |
| [Users #bitcoin-wizards] | 22:35 | |
| [@ChanServ ] [ fluffypony ] [ nephyrin ] | 22:35 | |
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| [ andytoshi ] [ harrigan_ ] [ platinuum ] | 22:35 | |
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| [ Apocalyptic ] [ hashtag_ ] [ pollux-bts ] | 22:35 | |
| [ artifexd ] [ helo ] [ prodatalab ] | 22:35 | |
| [ arubi ] [ HM ] [ Relos ] | 22:35 | |
| [ azariah ] [ hulkhogan_ ] [ richardus ] | 22:35 | |
| [ BananaLotus ] [ huseby ] [ roasbeef ] | 22:35 | |
| [ bassguitarman ] [ indolering ] [ runeks ] | 22:35 | |
| [ bedeho ] [ ir2ivps5 ] [ ryan-c ] | 22:35 | |
| [ berndj ] [ Iriez ] [ s1w ] | 22:35 | |
| [ binaryatrocity ] [ isis ] [ sadoshi ] | 22:35 | |
| [ bliljerk101 ] [ jaromil ] [ scoria ] | 22:35 | |
| [ BlueMatt ] [ jbenet ] [ sdaftuar ] | 22:35 | |
| [ bosma ] [ jessepollak ] [ se3000 ] | 22:35 | |
| [ BrainOverfl0w ] [ jgarzik ] [ shesek ] | 22:35 | |
| [ brand0 ] [ jonasschnelli ] [ sipa ] | 22:35 | |
| [ btcdrak ] [ justanotheruser] [ sl01 ] | 22:35 | |
| [ c0rw1n ] [ K1773R ] [ smooth_ ] | 22:35 | |
| [ catcow ] [ Keefe ] [ sneak ] | 22:35 | |
| [ catlasshrugged_ ] [ kinlo ] [ so ] | 22:35 | |
| [ cdecker ] [ kobud ] [ sparetire ] | 22:35 | |
| [ cfields ] [ koshii ] [ sparetire_ ] | 22:35 | |
| [ cluckj ] [ Krellan ] [ spinza ] | 22:35 | |
| [ CodeShark ] [ kumavis ] [ Starduster ] | 22:35 | |
| [ comboy ] [ kyuupichan ] [ starsoccer ] | 22:35 | |
| [ copumpkin ] [ larraboj ] [ stonecoldpat ] | 22:35 | |
| [ Cory ] [ leakypat ] [ STRML ] | 22:35 | |
| [ coryfields ] [ LeMiner ] [ sturles ] | 22:35 | |
| [ crescendo ] [ livegnik ] [ SubCreative ] | 22:35 | |
| [ CryptoGoon ] [ lmacken ] [ SwedFTP ] | 22:35 | |
| [ CryptOprah ] [ lmatteis ] [ Taek ] | 22:35 | |
| [ cryptowest_ ] [ lnovy ] [ TD-Linux ] | 22:35 | |
| [ d1ggy ] [ Logicwax ] [ throughnothing] | 22:35 | |
| [ d9b4bef9 ] [ luigi1111 ] [ Tiraspol ] | 22:35 | |
| [ dansmith_btc ] [ Luke-Jr ] [ tromp ] | 22:35 | |
| [ dardasaba__ ] [ luny ] [ tromp___ ] | 22:35 | |
| [ dasource ] [ Madars ] [ ttttemp_ ] | 22:35 | |
| [ davout ] [ mappum ] [ veox ] | 22:35 | |
| [ dc17523be3 ] [ mariorz ] [ vonzipper ] | 22:35 | |
| [ delitzer ] [ Meeh ] [ warptangent ] | 22:35 | |
| [ dgenr8 ] [ melvster ] [ warren ] | 22:35 | |
| [ dignork- ] [ merlincorey ] [ waxwing ] | 22:35 | |
| [ DougieBot5000 ] [ metamarc ] [ weex_ ] | 22:35 | |
| [ Dr-G ] [ michagogo ] [ williamdunne ] | 22:35 | |
| [ EasyAt_ ] [ midnightmagic ] [ wiz ] | 22:35 | |
| [ ebfull ] [ mikolalysenko ] [ wizkid057 ] | 22:35 | |
| [ elastoma ] [ mkarrer ] [ wumpus ] | 22:35 | |
| [ Eliel ] [ mm_1 ] [ xabbix ] | 22:35 | |
| [ Emcy_ ] [ moa ] [ Xzibit17 ] | 22:35 | |
| [ epscy ] [ morcos ] [ yoleaux ] | 22:35 | |
| [ eric ] [ mr_burdell ] [ yorick ] | 22:35 | |
| [ espes__ ] [ Muis ] [ yrashk ] | 22:35 | |
| [ face_ ] [ nanotube ] [ Zouppen ] | 22:35 | |
| [ fanquake ] [ narwh4l ] | 22:35 | |
| [ Fistful_of_coins] [ NeatBasis ] | 22:35 | |
| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 211 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 210 normal] | 22:35 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 22:35 | |
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| --- Log closed Wed May 06 00:00:03 2015 | ||
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