2015-05-05.log

--- Log opened Tue May 05 00:00:48 2015
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lmatteisis anybody fluent in DHT networks around here?00:34
lmatteisi can't seem to find a channel where to discuss p2p related issues00:34
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bedeholmatteis: #webtorrent and #ipfs has a bunch of people who are quite knowledgable about that sort of stuff, they may be able to help you01:37
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AdlaiLuke-Jr's comment in #bitcoin-dev makes me wonder: does bitcoin's game-theoretic security model (which afaik hasn't yet been formalized) rely upon no single actor being able to devalue the currency by shorting?11:00
TaekAdlai: I don't feel confident about analysis, but11:01
Taekshorting is a market11:02
Taekif you are able to short Bitcoin, that means that someone is selling you that short11:02
Taekand if you crash the market, you are effectively taking money from them11:02
Taekso if it becomes known that someone is buying massive amounts of short volume on Bitcoin11:02
Taekpeople are going to get suspicious11:02
Taekthat's going to hinder your ability to abuse shorting to acquire enough economic power to launch a 51% attack11:04
* Taek waves hands furiously11:04
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Adlaithe action in question is that of a stakeholder selling 20mb-block-bitcoin for 1mb-block-bitcoin, to "vote with his money" for greater investment of infrastructure towards securing his preferred chain11:06
Adlaiwho is working on (or knows of draft versions of) a formal description of the game-theoretic model?11:08
Taekif a significant number of people are split between 20mb-coin and 1mb-coin, it'll be a disaster even if both chains are secure11:09
Taekit doesn't seem that different to me from 'voting with your money' with regards to altcoins though11:11
Adlaithe same argument could be made about any large holder in a liquid cryptocurrency; and by that argument, the "one dollar, one vote" election has chosen bitcoin11:11
TaekI would agree with that11:12
* Adlai is searching for a more nuanced/precise statement than "bitcoin needs to be valuable to be useful"11:12
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gavinandresenTaek: I mentioned “the goldfinger attack” (profit by making a massive short bet) to some insanely smart people at MIT, including a couple of economists. Their question was the same as mine: why would it work in the Bitcoin world, if it doesn’t work in stock markets or financial markets?11:17
TaekI agree, but one potential answer is that stock markets are regulated11:18
TaekIE you can't do inside trading11:18
Taekthat might change the mechanics substantially11:18
zookoTaek: haha.11:18
yoleaux30 Apr 2015 17:29Z <kanzure> zooko: nice meeting you :-)11:18
yoleaux30 Apr 2015 17:35Z <kanzure> zooko: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/venture-deals.pdf11:18
zookokanzure: It was a pleasure!11:19
gavinandresenTaek: … and bitcoin markets are regulated, because they intersect the banking system.11:19
zookokanzure: thanks! I've read that book, it was a good one.11:19
zookoTaek: were you serious when you said you can't do insider trading?11:19
zookoIn normal stock markets, etc?11:19
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kanzuregavinandresen: i don't know if you should defer to them simply because they have been called smart by others :-) let's be more careful11:21
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zookogavinandresen: also Bitcoin is a much smaller, shallower market than those others.11:21
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gavinandresenzooko: there are plenty of small, shallow markets for tiny stocks. Yet we don’t see people shorting them then burning down their factories.....11:22
kanzureoverstock.com would love to disagree11:23
Adlaigavinandresen: because bitcoin needs to be valuable to be secure. a penny stock certificate is just as difficult to counterfeit as BRKA11:23
zookogavinandresen: Hm.11:23
gavinandresenat least, not here in the US. except for owners pulling insurance fraud….11:23
kanzurethere are many stocks that get shorted far beyond the actual supply of that stock11:23
kanzure"the goldfinger attack" was not necessarily about profiting by selling shorts or whatever11:23
zookogavinandresen: I don't know -- I'm certainly not one of those smart people -- but is it that there is the *potential* for massive amounts of money to come in to11:24
zookobust your insincere short?11:24
gavinandresenIn any case, if you’re worried about ‘goldfinger attacks’ — okey dokey. Look forward to your patch that fixes that potential problem.11:24
zookoEven if that rarely happens in practice?11:24
* kanzure is not okay with that argument from authority above11:26
zookoI'm not saying that smart people know. I'm saying I don't know. ;-)11:29
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jgarzikkanzure, slapped that book on my Kindle, thanks11:49
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kanzurejgarzik: sorry for forgetting about you, whoops12:18
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warrenHave there been any followup papers on the size of the transactions of 2 way pegging when going back to BTC?14:30
* Adlai is not okay with the "argument from disinterest"14:32
* dgenr8 fully expects massive pumps (and dumps) in bitcoin as big fiat gets going14:33
livegnikhttp://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/pdf/20150505.pdf14:33
Adlairight, because until now it's been "flat as a pancake" (as the cross-country coach said of his home track)14:33
* Adlai isn't sure what to call this "attack", but it should have a different name... bond villains never competed over hashpower14:34
dgenr8ability to hold your own keys is like taking delivery of known genuine stock certificates in seconds.  i wonder if wall st is ready for that14:37
* Adlai isn't sure "stock certificates" exist anymore, any more than ghosts, or the laws of nature14:42
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--- Log opened Tue May 05 22:35:03 2015
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-!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja22:35
-!- Topic set by andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] [Fri Aug 22 14:51:37 2014]22:35
[Users #bitcoin-wizards]22:35
[@ChanServ ] [ fluffypony ] [ nephyrin ] 22:35
[ [7] ] [ forrestv ] [ NewLiberty ] 22:35
[ [ace] ] [ GAit ] [ nickler ] 22:35
[ [d__d] ] [ gavinandresen ] [ NkWsy ] 22:35
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[ a5m0_ ] [ gmaxwell ] [ null_radix ] 22:35
[ adams__ ] [ gnusha ] [ Oizopower ] 22:35
[ Adlai ] [ go1111111 ] [ OneFixt ] 22:35
[ AdrianG ] [ Graet ] [ optimator ] 22:35
[ afdudley ] [ GreenIsMyPepper] [ otoburb ] 22:35
[ airbreather ] [ gribble ] [ p15 ] 22:35
[ ajweiss ] [ gsdgdfs ] [ PaulCapestany ] 22:35
[ Alanius ] [ Guest39820 ] [ petertodd ] 22:35
[ AlexStraunoff ] [ Guest90218 ] [ phantomcircuit] 22:35
[ amiller ] [ guruvan ] [ phedny ] 22:35
[ Anduck ] [ gwillen ] [ pigeons ] 22:35
[ andytoshi ] [ harrigan_ ] [ platinuum ] 22:35
[ antgreen ] [ harrow ] [ poggy ] 22:35
[ Apocalyptic ] [ hashtag_ ] [ pollux-bts ] 22:35
[ artifexd ] [ helo ] [ prodatalab ] 22:35
[ arubi ] [ HM ] [ Relos ] 22:35
[ azariah ] [ hulkhogan_ ] [ richardus ] 22:35
[ BananaLotus ] [ huseby ] [ roasbeef ] 22:35
[ bassguitarman ] [ indolering ] [ runeks ] 22:35
[ bedeho ] [ ir2ivps5 ] [ ryan-c ] 22:35
[ berndj ] [ Iriez ] [ s1w ] 22:35
[ binaryatrocity ] [ isis ] [ sadoshi ] 22:35
[ bliljerk101 ] [ jaromil ] [ scoria ] 22:35
[ BlueMatt ] [ jbenet ] [ sdaftuar ] 22:35
[ bosma ] [ jessepollak ] [ se3000 ] 22:35
[ BrainOverfl0w ] [ jgarzik ] [ shesek ] 22:35
[ brand0 ] [ jonasschnelli ] [ sipa ] 22:35
[ btcdrak ] [ justanotheruser] [ sl01 ] 22:35
[ c0rw1n ] [ K1773R ] [ smooth_ ] 22:35
[ catcow ] [ Keefe ] [ sneak ] 22:35
[ catlasshrugged_ ] [ kinlo ] [ so ] 22:35
[ cdecker ] [ kobud ] [ sparetire ] 22:35
[ cfields ] [ koshii ] [ sparetire_ ] 22:35
[ cluckj ] [ Krellan ] [ spinza ] 22:35
[ CodeShark ] [ kumavis ] [ Starduster ] 22:35
[ comboy ] [ kyuupichan ] [ starsoccer ] 22:35
[ copumpkin ] [ larraboj ] [ stonecoldpat ] 22:35
[ Cory ] [ leakypat ] [ STRML ] 22:35
[ coryfields ] [ LeMiner ] [ sturles ] 22:35
[ crescendo ] [ livegnik ] [ SubCreative ] 22:35
[ CryptoGoon ] [ lmacken ] [ SwedFTP ] 22:35
[ CryptOprah ] [ lmatteis ] [ Taek ] 22:35
[ cryptowest_ ] [ lnovy ] [ TD-Linux ] 22:35
[ d1ggy ] [ Logicwax ] [ throughnothing] 22:35
[ d9b4bef9 ] [ luigi1111 ] [ Tiraspol ] 22:35
[ dansmith_btc ] [ Luke-Jr ] [ tromp ] 22:35
[ dardasaba__ ] [ luny ] [ tromp___ ] 22:35
[ dasource ] [ Madars ] [ ttttemp_ ] 22:35
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[ dc17523be3 ] [ mariorz ] [ vonzipper ] 22:35
[ delitzer ] [ Meeh ] [ warptangent ] 22:35
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[ dignork- ] [ merlincorey ] [ waxwing ] 22:35
[ DougieBot5000 ] [ metamarc ] [ weex_ ] 22:35
[ Dr-G ] [ michagogo ] [ williamdunne ] 22:35
[ EasyAt_ ] [ midnightmagic ] [ wiz ] 22:35
[ ebfull ] [ mikolalysenko ] [ wizkid057 ] 22:35
[ elastoma ] [ mkarrer ] [ wumpus ] 22:35
[ Eliel ] [ mm_1 ] [ xabbix ] 22:35
[ Emcy_ ] [ moa ] [ Xzibit17 ] 22:35
[ epscy ] [ morcos ] [ yoleaux ] 22:35
[ eric ] [ mr_burdell ] [ yorick ] 22:35
[ espes__ ] [ Muis ] [ yrashk ] 22:35
[ face_ ] [ nanotube ] [ Zouppen ] 22:35
[ fanquake ] [ narwh4l ] 22:35
[ Fistful_of_coins] [ NeatBasis ] 22:35
-!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 211 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 210 normal]22:35
-!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 201322:35
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--- Log closed Wed May 06 00:00:03 2015

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