2015-05-15.log

--- Log opened Fri May 15 00:00:12 2015
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* andy-logbot is logging01:04
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pampuchyhello, how does bitcoin have a dollar value? where can i read about this?01:08
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fluffyponypampuchy: because somebody is willing to spend USD for BTC01:13
fluffyponybut this is more a #bitcoin question01:13
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K1773Rgmaxwell: have you seen the (Coin)JoinMarket project? im interested to know what you think about it. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=919116.001:52
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fluffyponyDays since DHTs have been suggested on the mailing list: 002:58
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pampuchyany discussion about nytimes article?07:06
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instagibbspampuchy: #bitcoin07:19
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andytoshiK1773R: i did a quick audit for the "obvious mistakes" in doing a CJ implementation and didn't find any; but this is not an "an clear". i wish the code was laid out more cleanly to facilitate analysis (part of this is that i haven't familiarized myself with their data structures, but also there are nowhere near enough comments). generally i have a positive impression of them07:34
andytoshis/an clear/all clear/07:35
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dgenr8fluffypony: beefnode returns transaction details and spent-output proofs for transactions whose txid starts with beef.  Please relay new beefy transactions, and transactions that spend beefy outputs, to beefnode.07:47
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fluffyponydgenr8: only if you have MasterBeefs sharing DHTs kthx09:53
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dgenr8if you wanted to call something a DHT, wouldn't it be the collection of beefnodes, bef0nodes, ... and any nodes that route to them?10:08
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jgarzika DHT anchored by a blockchain would be interesting10:20
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afk11Hey, anyone here familiar with stratum servers? I wrote a client for it the other day, and just playing with some of the documented commands10:22
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afk11I seem to be getting two different errors while calling blockchain.address.get_mempool - an index not found when I don't specify an address, and 'BlockchainProcessor' object has no attribute 'get_unconfirmed_history' when I do10:26
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ThomasVafk11: you mean an electrum server? that method is not implemented10:29
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afk11ThomasV: aye. ah ok, I'll ignore that so! https://electrum.orain.org/wiki/Stratum_protocol_specification mentioned it10:36
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afk11I guess https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum-server will have what I need?10:37
ThomasVhmm indeed10:37
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ThomasVit's not been implemented because the client does not need it10:38
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afk11ThomasV: might submit a PR removing the binding to that nonexisting function11:58
ThomasVok11:58
ThomasVor implement it :)11:58
dgenr8SPV clients can be attacked by withholding spends.  so we ponder, how serious is the condition of having nodes in the network that are subject to the same attack?11:58
dgenr8if the goal is to sybil a single SPV client with 6 connections, you have a new way to do it -- you can sybil all of those 6 nodes' upstream connections.  meh?11:59
dgenr8if the goal is to screw with the network, you can set up a lot of fake beefnodes and hope an honest one isn't one of those asked to produce a spend proof12:00
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dgenr8for the same effort that today allows you to lie to some subset of SPV nodes about all transactions, you can lie to a bigger subset about beef transactions (because fewer beef nodes), but only 1/65536 txes are beefy12:05
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gmaxwelldgenr8: uh no you cannot.12:08
gmaxwell(attack a spv client by attacking its fullnode peers)12:09
dgenr8consider a world where there are far fewer fullnodes due to resource requirements12:10
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dgenr8and you have peers that relay among nodes that only track a slice of the blockchain...12:11
afk11ThomasV: pyfoo isn't too strong, but I'll give it a go. I see references to mempool stuff anyway, so reviewing whats in use now12:11
gmaxwellSo? I think you've failed to understand what the withholding attack against SPV clients is. It has nothing to do with relay.12:11
gmaxwelldgenr8: full nods that "track a slice of the blockchain" is incohearent with respect to bitcoin, thats not something that can be done without a radically different design.12:12
gmaxwellSo yes, an unspecified different design may have totally different vulnerabilities.12:13
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jgarzikheh12:14
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dgenr8i didn't refer to full nodes that only had a slice.  clearly those would not be full nodes.12:18
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dgenr8suppose some capabilities were added to bitcoind.  tracking only specific txid stems would be one.  providing full tx lookups and spend proofs for those stems are some more.12:27
dgenr8then there's an ability to route these requests to nodes with other slices.  that's where all the fun is12:28
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williamdunneIt'd be nice if someone bolted on some sort of WebSocket/WebHook thing to it as well to pass on transaction data on the fly12:30
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phantomcircuitwilliamdunne, no... just... no12:30
williamdunneNot onto the core12:31
williamdunneBut onto a fork of it12:31
williamdunneSorta like the fork which passes on all transactions for checking for double spend attempts12:31
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fluffyponyhttp://backronym.fail12:39
fluffypony.title12:39
yoleauxThe BACKRONYM Vulnerability12:39
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fluffypony"Use your thought leadership talents to write blog post about BACKRONYM to reap sweet Internet karma."12:41
fluffyponysounds about right.12:41
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williamdunneCertainly plenty of that done with HeartBleed12:58
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fluffyponyhttps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7539.txt13:26
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fluffyponyChaCha20 and Poly1305 got ratified for IETF13:26
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dgenr8to allow an SPV client to validate inputs to a transaction by requesting spend proofs that invalidate them, and not getting any13:54
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phantomcircuitdgenr8, what?14:12
phantomcircuitdgenr8, you mean walk the inputs to a transaction back to the coinbase?14:13
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Luke-Jrdgenr8: you realise what you're suggesting is not very practical?14:14
Luke-Jrphantomcircuit: pretty sure he means the ability to query "was <txid>:<index> spent already? SPV proof of this please"14:15
dgenr8phantomcircuit: not walk back, just have a complete indexed set of transactions matching some stem like 0xbeef14:15
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dgenr8neither the SPV client's peers, nor any of the nodes involved in generating responses, need the full blockchain or UTXO set.  they have block headers back to genesis, and process new blocks to update their slices14:16
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phantomcircuitdgenr8, so an index of transactions by their prefix?14:16
phantomcircuitdgenr8, still not really sure what you're suggesting14:17
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dgenr8phantomcircuit: node stores a transaction set matching some prefix, and can quickly produce the tx details (-txindex), and a spend proof (block + merkle branch) for any of its outputs14:20
dgenr8(block hash + merkle branch)14:20
phantomcircuitdgenr8, so the security model of that is super vulnerable to sybil attacks due to censorship risks14:21
dgenr8how would you censor me?14:22
phantomcircuitdgenr8, im an spv client, i connect to 8 peers and ask them for spv proof of spends for my transactions14:24
phantomcircuitall 8 peers are secretly you and you lie to me saying they're not spent14:24
dgenr8if you control all the peers that is a risk today14:25
dgenr8s/you/i/14:25
phantomcircuitdgenr8, peers can only hide full blocks14:25
phantomcircuitwhich is mitigated by PoW14:26
dgenr8today, if i fail to tell you about a block that spent an input you're interested in, how will you know? you have the block header but so what?14:28
phantomcircuitdgenr8, i dont get the point of this all14:29
phantomcircuitit's really not that difficult for a wallet to walk the entire blockchain once14:30
phantomcircuitit's not like it has to store it14:30
dgenr8the point is scalability by not storing fullblocks or utxos.  are you suggesting a different way to achieve scalability?14:31
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phantomcircuitdgenr8, why shard based on transaction? it's so much easier to shard based on block14:33
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dgenr8because the necessary query is by transaction14:33
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phantomcircuitdgenr8, a full node needs to see all the transactions in all of the blocks14:35
phantomcircuiti see lots of effort being put into wallets which dont have to download the full blockchain... but this is largely ill advised14:36
phantomcircuitinitialization at spv is fine14:36
phantomcircuitbut there is virtually no reason not to continue to download the blockchain and upgrade security as you go14:36
dgenr8for a few billion people to be able to own some bitcoin, wallets aren't ever going to download the full blockchain14:38
helobattery use14:38
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phantomcircuithelo, limit full chain download to wifi + plugged in14:40
phantomcircuitit's trivial to do on android and i assume it is on ios also14:40
phantomcircuitdgenr8, if you're thinking that all the worlds transactions are going to happen on the same blockchain14:40
phantomcircuitthink again14:40
helodunno... it's a really long walk up the chain for a phone14:41
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heloside loading the utxo from a node you trust at a recent block would help a lot14:41
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dgenr8phantomcircuit: all transactions will not be on the blockchain, because people will continue to accept other forms of payment.  but.   1 blockchain = 1 currency.14:42
moanew bitcoin spec. ... all global transactions validated and stored on a mobile device14:42
moaand you have 1 month to decide or we hard fork14:42
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phantomcircuitdgenr8, there's no reason for 1 blockchain = 1 currency14:43
heloi think you mean "in 1 month the people that choose to hard fork"14:43
moameanwhile back in the real world14:44
helo"hard fork in 1 month for hale bopp believers"14:44
phantomcircuitthere are various things coming out which use bitcoin the money outside of the bitcoin blockchain by leveraging the programmable trust model bitcoin provides14:44
phantomcircuitthe best example of this is lightning14:44
moaless rhetoric and more numbers would be a good start14:45
dgenr8phantomcircuit: that's not a counterexample.  a counterexample would be 2 blockchains supporting 1 currency.14:45
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phantomcircuitdgenr8, k sidechains14:46
phantomcircuit2 blockchains14:46
phantomcircuit1 currency14:46
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dgenr8must disagree on that14:47
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dgenr8maybe I stated it too strongly though.  it would be easy to have 2 currencies on 1 blockchain but that doesn't help scalability14:47
phantomcircuitdgenr8, blockchains are inherently un-scalable14:48
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phantomcircuitto maintain the security model under which bitcoin operates (and arguably must operate to function) the economic majority must run full validating nodes14:49
phantomcircuitwhich must validate all transactions since forever14:50
moaphantomcircuit: inherently is not quite correct ... expensive to scale, but expensive is a comparative term with temporal and spatial context14:51
phantomcircuitmoa, it's really not14:51
dgenr8if a DHT-like collection of partial nodes works, it would represent a huge chunk of economic activity14:51
phantomcircuitbitcoin ultimately scales at something horrendous like O(2^n) or something due to the gossip network14:52
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phantomcircuitthe terrible complexity stuff is largely irrelevant now, but that's because the cost of those pieces has been linearly scaled down making the ultimate scaling issues there less obvious14:52
moaeverything scales ... but at what cost is the right question14:52
phantomcircuitmoa, ok so this is an issue of language14:53
moagood place to begin14:53
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phantomcircuitwhen i say scales i mean, can grow at roughly O(n) with cost14:53
phantomcircuityes given infinite resources bitcoin could support all of the worlds transactions on one blockchain14:53
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phantomcircuitbut im certain nobody would consider that an optimal or even acceptable outcome14:54
moacorrect14:54
moaso it is the cost of scaling that you need to address14:54
phantomcircuit(i actually suspect that you'd start to get into comical ridiculous things like consuming stars worth of energy...)14:54
moammm, not happening in the foreseeable future14:55
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moai see they recently decreased the possible radius for a feasible dyson sphere14:55
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phantomcircuitmoa, "feasible"14:56
phantomcircuit:P14:56
moalol14:56
moamaybe there is hope for bitcoinn after all14:56
lmatteisdo you guys know how long does a key-value pair stay in a DHT network?14:56
lmatteisi suppose as long as a peer serves it.14:57
moawe just need to find a collection of dim brown dwarves14:57
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phantomcircuitlmatteis, DHT networks provide virtually no guarantee of anything14:57
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phantomcircuitthey are decidedly not useful for bitcoin14:58
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lmatteisphantomcircuit: yeah sorry wasn't bitcoin-related question15:00
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phantomcircuitlmatteis, iirc there's no real guarantees15:00
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nullbytehave the old -wizards logs from wpsoftware disappeared? i'm sadly seeing 404's on access :(19:56
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merlincorey  /w 1722:13
merlincoreyfffail22:13
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--- Log closed Sat May 16 00:00:13 2015

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