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| Taek | One of the big things I don't like about merged mining + sidechains is that the security model is much weaker if your chain isn't funding the majority of the mining | 09:23 |
|---|---|---|
| Taek | And one of the problems with larger blocks is that validating becomes expensive | 09:23 |
| Taek | One of the ways to approach this problem is to have 20 parallel utxo sets in the blockchain | 09:24 |
| Taek | each set permitted 1mb of transactions in each block | 09:24 |
| Taek | and some form of sidechains implementation to move coins between the utxo sets | 09:25 |
| Taek | You end up with 20mb as the maximum blockchain size, but people can now hold all of their coins in only 1 of the 20 sets | 09:25 |
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| Taek | and then they can validate that set and ignore all of the others | 09:25 |
| Taek | The improvement to merge mining comes in from a new consensus rule | 09:26 |
| Taek | once a valid set of transactions is in a 20mb block, it can't be reorg'd unless you completely reorg the whole system | 09:26 |
| Taek | so, instead of 20 blockchains, it's just 1 blockchain, but with 20 utxo sets | 09:27 |
| Taek | Since you are only validating 1 set, there's a chance that the other sets have invalid transactions | 09:27 |
| Taek | if a block appears that has invalid transactions for your utxo set, you just ignore the transactions for that set | 09:28 |
| Taek | but the block as a whole is still valid | 09:28 |
| Taek | this makes SPV trickier to implement, but I think it's still possible to have SPV nodes (you might need an additional consensus rule about miners committing to which prior blocks have been valid) | 09:28 |
| Taek | There might be a way to improve on everyone needing to d/l the 20mb blocks as well | 09:29 |
| zooko | Hiya Taek! Nice to meet you IRL. | 09:29 |
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| Taek | hey zooko! I enjoyed chatting | 09:30 |
| Taek | The only reason that you need to d/l the whole block is to be certain that none of the data is being withheld | 09:30 |
| Taek | as the security model breaks if someone can hide a valid portion of the chain | 09:31 |
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| Taek | Previous discussions with gmaxwell suggest that there might be ways to avoid needing to download the entire 20mb block while still having high certainty that no data is being withheld | 09:31 |
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| Taek | I'm curious if the above idea is something worth putting on the mailing list | 09:56 |
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| zooko | https://leastauthority.com/blog/a_bug_in_libsnark.html | 10:44 |
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| Luke-Jr | zooko: so is this a Zerocash softfork? (was Zerocash actually released in some form?) | 10:57 |
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| theymos | Taek: That's a bit like tree chains, isn't it? | 11:54 |
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| theymos | Taek: I'm also not confident that merge-mined sidechains will be particularly useful if any big Bitcoin pool can destroy them at will almost for free. | 11:55 |
| kanzure | well they are giving up the opportunity to mine for other things during that time | 11:56 |
| kanzure | i mean during the time that they are attacking | 11:56 |
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| kanzure | (depending on how weak the target is) | 11:56 |
| Taek | it's not a huge sacrifice though, b/c they are still getting the rewards from the majority chain. It's even more significant if they can merge-mine many chains at once. | 11:57 |
| Taek | then their only opportunity cost is the reward on the chain they are attacking | 11:57 |
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| kanzure | they only get the rewards from the majority chain if they are actively mining | 12:02 |
| kanzure | oh merge-mining an attack? hm | 12:02 |
| Taek | right | 12:03 |
| Taek | especially if you're including behaviors like bribes, a coin with a very small reward doesn't require much of a bribe to convince a pool to attack-mine or just not mine. | 12:04 |
| Taek | that ceases to be a problem in my 'merged block' scheme, because reorging any set of transactions requires reorging every set of transactions - you lose out on the rewards of the majority chain as well as the rewards on the minority chain | 12:07 |
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| theymos | Instead of doing PoW on sidechains, I wonder if you could do something like this: After creating a new sidechain block without any PoW, broadcast or mine a transaction on the Bitcoin network with an OP_RETURN output containing some sidechain-identifying leading info and the sidechain block hash. The real next block in the sidechain is the first such transaction listed in a Bitcoin block. The Bit | 12:16 |
| theymos | coin network already keeps track of ordering, so don't allow reorgs on the sidechain without reorgs on the Bitcoin chain. | 12:16 |
| Taek | what is the sidechain identifying leading info? That is very important | 12:18 |
| Taek | If it's just a hash, someone could hide a different reorg in the bitcoin chain, and then reveal it | 12:19 |
| Taek | if there's some identifying prefix, someone could release a prefix followed by a nonsense hash, and you have to figure out how to choose which entries to ignore | 12:19 |
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| theymos | Ah, good point. | 12:20 |
| theymos | Maybe this particular idea doesn't work then, but I feel like if possible it'd be better to do sidechain-type stuff without any additional PoW (including merged mining) by attaching sidechain stuff more tightly to Bitcoin blocks, in this general vein. | 12:22 |
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| fluffypony | theymos: that's basically what we're going to do be doing with some of the Monero daughter-chains, no coinbase and more tightly coupled to the mainchain, with nodes being able to advertise what additional chains they serve | 12:47 |
| fluffypony | but then it's less of an "anyone can make a chain!" thing, and more of a "hallowed be thy blessed other-chains" | 12:47 |
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| Luke-Jr | fluffypony: Monero daughter-chains for Bitcoin, or within Monero? | 14:11 |
| Luke-Jr | theymos: also to consider, what if it's an invalid sidechain block | 14:12 |
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| fluffypony | Luke-Jr: within Monero | 14:21 |
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| --- Log closed Mon May 18 00:00:15 2015 | ||
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