2015-05-19.log

--- Log opened Tue May 19 00:00:16 2015
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nsh.ask NeatBasis ootko suomesta? miten hyvin on bitcoinnit tuttunnut siella nykyaan?05:59
yoleauxnsh: I'll pass your message to NeatBasis.05:59
fluffyponyfrankenmint: the ultimate mining botnet!06:24
fluffypony:-P06:24
frankenmintyea that's really the wrong description to use06:25
frankenmintI mean, comeon- calling it a botnet, its not06:25
frankenmintalthough it remains to be seen what on earth these guys are thinking06:25
frankenmintTheir article said 'software' implementation that can work on existing chip infrastructure06:25
frankenmintso I read that as 'software asics' which makes no sense to me06:26
nsh#bitcoin-speculation-about-vapourware06:26
fluffyponyfrankenmint: was a joke06:27
fluffyponynsh: can't tell if hashtag or IRC channel06:27
frankenmintnsh: its empty :( 4evr alooonee06:27
frankenmintyea I know, say sorry bout giving you a hard time about my gpu frame comming 5 months later :p06:28
frankenmintfluffypony: know anyone stateside who wants a vitalia standalone here stateside?  I've got a brand new one for them06:29
fluffyponyunfortunately not :(06:30
hashtagu rang?06:30
fluffyponylol06:30
hashtag:)06:30
fluffyponyok I'm out, speaking at a meetup in Brussels in 3 hours and presentation still needs tweaks06:31
fluffyponycheers06:31
frankenminttell em honeybadgerofmoney06:32
frankenmint5 dollars gets them involved in the worlds largest grassroots bitcoin promotion!06:32
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nshseriously, random chit-chat to #bitcoin, please06:33
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TaekWould it be an acceptable endgame to have mining become completely inaccessable to the unwealthy, but instead dominated by 5-10 corporations, none of whom have more than 33% hashrate?08:50
kanzureno, because corporations are subject to the law and can be compelled by courts to compromise technical systems08:51
Taekwhat if each of the corporations is in a separate jurisdiction?08:51
Taekat that point the discussion changes from 'corporations' to 'nation states'08:52
Taekcertainly it's less ideal than 1-cpu-1-vote, but in a stable political climate it might be sufficient08:54
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kanzure1-cpu-1-vote is not something that exists at the moment08:56
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Taekright but it's an ideal I think many researchers are aiming at08:57
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kanzureoh, why?09:00
kanzurethat's clearly not sybil-resistant09:00
kanzure(since there's no way to identify individual cpus)09:00
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* Taek backs up a bit, s/1-cpu-1-vote/fully decentralized mining/g09:02
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temujinmining is decentralized enough imo09:08
temujinbitcoin is perfectly parallel, meaning the hashrate landscape can change quickly as individual miners change pools (in the case of a disagreement with pool policy, overcentralization, etc)09:09
Taektemujin: there's significant risk that arises from economies of scale.09:10
TaekA bigger mining investment also has more room to establish itself in places with inherent advantages (such as regions where electricty is cheap), has more ability to collect lots of talent (proprietary and significant ASIC improvements)09:12
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temujinis there an alternative?09:25
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Taekhopefully. Currently the most promising seems to be the idea of using the waste heat of ASICs as an advantage09:26
Taekheating homes, hot water, etc.09:26
Taekbecause the asics are now serving 2 purposes instead of 1, there's an efficiency boost09:27
Taekit's not clear though that this will be enough in the long run09:28
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temujinhaha, my two GPU rigs certainly heated my apartment quite nicely winter 2013... i can see this being true09:28
sturlesI still have my GPUs connected to the water pipes for my underfloor heating. :-)09:29
sturlesA very profitable way to heat my house back in 2010-2012.09:30
sturlesNot GPU mining any more, of course.09:31
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nshall we need, and it can't be that much of an ask, is for the US DoD to reprogram their GPS satellites to act as entropy beacons so that it's possible to cryptographically attest geographic locations10:07
nshthen we can ensure reasonable jurisdictional distribution of miners10:07
Taekyou would adjust the difficulty depending on geography?10:08
nshrequires a bit more thought10:08
Taekassuming that you could accurately enforce geographic honesty10:09
TaekI think that it would be a good thing to have10:09
nshwell, you can't, because space doesn't exist. but you can attest to being in a certain locus within a certain timeframe10:10
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nsh(what i mean is, you can fake being somewhere else, but you can't fake having the exact information for that position at some exact time)10:10
nsh(if you have to commit to it)10:11
Taekyou're still stuck trusting the entropy beacons10:11
* nsh nods10:11
nshdon't the russians have a parallel GPS satnet still, or did they give up?10:12
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nshpresumably china will at some stage, so at least you can split the trust between rough geopolitical adversaries10:13
nsh.wik GLONASS10:14
yoleaux"GLONASS (Russian: ГЛОНАСС, IPA: [ɡlɐˈnas]; Глобальная навигационная спутниковая система; transliteration Globalnaya navigatsionnaya sputnikovaya sistema), or "GLObal NAvigation Satellite System", is a space-based satellite navigation system operated by the Russian Aerospace Defence Forces." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS10:14
nsh.wik BeiDou Navigation Satellite System10:15
yoleaux"The BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS, simplified Chinese: 北斗卫星导航系统; traditional Chinese: 北斗衛星導航系統; pinyin: Běidǒu wèixīng dǎoháng xìtǒng) is a Chinese satellite navigation system." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeiDou_Navigation_Satellite_System10:15
nshbut aye, back in the real world, the military of nation-states does not have a great track record in positively responding to my suggestions10:16
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* nsh muses13:32
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Taekasic-heated consumer appliances may not provide the decentralization we're looking for13:48
Taekit's just another avenue of diversity for much larger mining companies13:48
Taekin all liklihood, the consumers would never touch their miner, the company they bought it from would manage all of the operations13:49
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Taekso really it's just centralized around whoever is controlling the software on the appliances13:49
kanzureer, nobody claimed that it was related to diversity13:51
kanzure(or decentralization for that matter)13:51
Luke-JrTaek: yeah, we need a p2p way to have it mine decentralised IMO13:51
kanzure((got the word wrong))13:51
Luke-Jrs/p2p/LAN/13:51
Luke-Jrdetect bitcoind on the LAN automatically and solo mine13:52
Luke-Jrotoh, that's trusting the LAN probably too much.. so :/13:52
Taekkanzure: gavin at least expressed hope that it would increase decentralization13:52
Taekat the Boston dev core13:52
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kanzurespecifically he was talking about a chip that is pool-locked?13:54
Taekiirc he was merely talking about using asic's waste heat for other purposes13:55
Taeklike water tanks13:55
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nshcertainly finding ways to convert sha256 entropy from a problem you have to deal with to an asset is likely to increase asic decentralization14:03
nshwhether that actually increases hashpower decentralization is a different question14:03
nshunrelatedly14:05
* nsh tries to understand djb's number-theory contributions14:05
nshspecifically: "How to find smooth parts of integers."  http://cr.yp.to/factorization/smoothparts-20040510.pdf14:06
Taekwrt asic decentralization vs. hashpower decentralization: agree14:06
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nsh.seen gmaxwell14:06
yoleauxI saw gmaxwell 15 May 2015 19:13Z in #bitcoin-wizards: <gmaxwell> So yes, an unspecified different design may have totally different vulnerabilities.14:06
nsh.time14:06
nsh.date14:06
nsh.t14:06
yoleauxTue, 19 May 2015 21:07:38 UTC14:06
nshdid greg take a holiday or something?14:07
* nsh blinks until that computes14:07
nshwho's going to explain smoothness and elliptic curves and how the latter helps find the former in integers despite having no intrinsic notion of prime divisor itself14:07
TaekI had noticed the same thing. sipa doesn't seem to be around either14:07
Taek.seen sipa14:08
yoleauxI saw sipa 14 May 2015 16:17Z in #bitcoin-wizards: <sipa> i'll be on vacation the next two weeks14:08
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Taekoh14:08
nshwell, that's less of a mystery :)14:08
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nshamiller, andytoshi: ping?14:08
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nshi guess i'll just mash my brain into wikipedia until i find new ways of crying blood through my eyes14:10
ajweisswikipedia really needs differing depths for mathy/technical things14:11
gmaxwellnsh: sorry, I've been super busy (people will be excited...) and the conversation in here was ... uh not at its best lately.14:12
ajweisslike handwave, intermediate and bored graduate student14:12
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nshgmaxwell, understood (and vicariously / intriguedly excited about the excitements)  :)14:13
nsh(and agreed on the signal:noise diminishment)14:13
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shen_noensh, what do you want to know elliptic curves?14:37
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nshwell, first i wanted to know how djb's fast batch-GCD algorithm works, but in order to understand that, i need to know generally how elliptic curves, which don't even have a notion of prime divisors, can facilitate the finding of small prime factors of integers14:43
nsh.wik Lenstra elliptic curve factorization14:43
yoleaux"The Lenstra elliptic curve factorization or the elliptic curve factorization method (ECM) is a fast, sub-exponential running time algorithm for integer factorization which employs elliptic curves. For general purpose factoring, ECM is the third-fastest known factoring method." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenstra_elliptic_curve_factorization14:43
shen_noeI think most of those algorithms are explained in SIlverman book 114:44
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shen_noecan find on bookzz.org14:44
shen_noeI have to run14:44
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shen_noebut it's "arithmetic of elliptic curves" joseph silverman14:45
nshthanks14:45
shen_noetowards the end theres a section explaining the basic algorithms14:45
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* nsh will find14:45
shen_noebtw e-curves have a different notion of prime divisors14:45
shen_noeso it's not quite correct to say they don't have prime divisors14:45
shen_noeany case, ill be around later14:45
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nshokay, take care :)14:47
nsh(Silverman I is available here, if anyone else is [masochistic and] interested: http://www.pdmi.ras.ru/~lowdimma/BSD/Silverman-Arithmetic_of_EC.pdf )14:47
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andytoshinsh: hi, same sitch as gmax, what's up?16:34
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andytoshinsh: ohh one sec, iirc the montgomery paper actually has a good high16:35
andytoshilevel explanation of that16:35
nshi want to be hand-holded through difficult number theory because i am a lowly telephone sanitation engineer and they keep kicking me out of maths classes when i sneak into university :)16:35
nshah cool16:36
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nshSpeeding the Pollard and elliptic curve methods of factorization - Montgomery, '87 ?16:37
andytoshiyes, thx :)16:37
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andytoshipage 13-14 of the pdf16:38
* nsh reads16:39
andytoshibasically you do ECC operations as though you were in a prime field until they break, then you've detected non-primeness in a way that gives you a factor16:39
andytoshis/ECC/elliptic curve group/16:39
nshoh16:41
nshfascinating16:41
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nshheh, montgomery's paper refers to pollard's p + 1 method, but wikipedia calls it p - 116:42
nshi guess there's little difference16:43
nshthe immediate integers to a large prime are likely to have asymptotically equivalent smoothness16:43
nshi'd imagine, anyway16:43
nsh(i mean averaging. obviously they will not approximate to a single value)16:44
andytoshithere are actually two methods in the paper, the p-1 and p+1 ... they are quite similar, but there are no asymptotics since this is all discrete16:44
nshah16:44
nshi was just guessing that if you go with -1 then it's about as likely to be smooth as +116:44
nshbut if the methods are actually different thereafter, then it's an irrelevant observation16:45
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nshoh, p plus 1 is attributed to Williams16:46
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nsh.wik Williams' p + 1 algorithm16:46
yoleaux"In computational number theory, Williams' p + 1 algorithm is an integer factorization algorithm, one of the family of algebraic-group factorisation algorithms. It was invented by Hugh C. Williams in 1982." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams'_p_%2B_1_algorithm16:46
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nsh.wik Pollard's_p_−_1_algorithm16:47
yoleaux"Pollard's p − 1 algorithm is a number theoretic integer factorization algorithm, invented by John Pollard in 1974. It is a special-purpose algorithm, meaning that it is only suitable for integers with specific types of factors; it is the simplest example of an algebraic-group factorisation algorithm." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollard%27s_p_%E2%88%92_1_algorithm16:47
Adlaihttp://sage.math.washington.edu/edu/124/misc/montgomery.pdf16:47
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* nsh listens to:16:50
nshMod-01 Lec-30 Factoring Algorithms -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zvjv2Bf4Xk16:50
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--- Log closed Wed May 20 00:00:06 2015

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