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| * andy-logbot is logging | 01:04 | |
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| stonecoldpat | CoinMuncher: from what you said yesterday, IIRC there is some work here http://www.jbonneau.com/doc/BFGKN14-bitcoin_bribery.pdf that is a varaint of what you spoke about - so you said that you want to convince a miner by putting your own money on the line that a header is valid - instead this paper tries to "bribe" other miners to build on a block by sending them bitcoins in a block, | 01:12 |
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| stonecoldpat | so no its not "bullocks" what your thinking :P | 01:12 |
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| CoinMuncher | yoohoo! :) | 01:45 |
| CoinMuncher | stonecoldpat: thanks dude. Was just trying to read back the logs. | 01:46 |
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| CoinMuncher | I was just trying to come up with weird things you can do with transactions/mining and then think of an application for which it might be useful. Logically it's sort of the wrong way around, but I guess one might stumble upon something. On the other hand I'm sure thousands have gone before me. | 01:47 |
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| dgenr8 | phantomcircuit: 4096 for me is 27m real. what's your processor? | 10:27 |
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| dgenr8 | this is Intel i7 4770 @3.4GHz | 10:29 |
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| phantomcircuit | dgenr8, i7-4700MQ | 15:37 |
| phantomcircuit | the secret is to be running havege so you dont get stalls waiting for entropy | 15:37 |
| phantomcircuit | note: that might mean the parameters aren't entirely random... but it doesn't matter! | 15:38 |
| phantomcircuit | im sure it would be faster on my 4790K | 15:38 |
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| nsh | phantomcircuit, is havege using any hardware sources? | 16:04 |
| nsh | not sure i understand what you mean by some parameters not being entirely random | 16:05 |
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| gmaxwell | no one but intel knows. | 16:08 |
| gmaxwell | http://www.chronox.de/jent/doc/CPU-Jitter-NPTRNG.html has a writeup related to that approach (though not specific to the havege code) | 16:09 |
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| gmaxwell | basically there is some argument that there exists physical noise sources in cpu timing, mostly from the interactions of the different clock domains between the cpu and memory (PLL jitter). There is also a whole lot of 'seeming randomness' that is probably just properties of the microarchitecture and are not actually random. | 16:10 |
| nsh | i recall dankami harking about this a fair bit last year | 16:11 |
| nsh | i paraphrased some poetry for him: all these random bits we pick, are but the tocks within the tick | 16:11 |
| gmaxwell | Its tricky. If your CPU and memory are driven off a straight up divider circut on a common clock then there may be basically zero entropy there; but all the bogus 'randomness' means that these measures will still look random, so you can't tell when they're useless. | 16:13 |
| gmaxwell | beating two oscillators against each other is a reasonable hardware source of entropy, ... except for the fact that most oscillators are highly vulnerable to injection locking; which can cause it to fail to produce much entropy. | 16:14 |
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| gmaxwell | (there is some nice demos of defeating smartcard RNGs by just using a radio transmitter (e.g. a microwave oven magnatron) to injection lock their ring-oscillator based RNGs and make them put out a regular pattern.) | 16:15 |
| moa | resonance ruined randomness | 16:19 |
| * dgenr8 had no idea havege existed. very neat | 16:21 | |
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| nsh | .wik Injection locking | 16:31 |
| yoleaux | "Injection locking and injection pulling are the frequency effects that can occur when a harmonic oscillator is disturbed by a second oscillator operating at a nearby frequency." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_locking | 16:31 |
| nsh | neat | 16:31 |
| nsh | moa, "resonance ruined randomness" is a good album title for post-modernist cyperpunk ambient music or something | 16:31 |
| nsh | i assume that's a genre; everything's a genre | 16:32 |
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| moa | ordo ad chaos | 16:34 |
| moa | ordo ab chaos | 16:35 |
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| nsh | .t https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/32tcym/i_see_the_future_laseretching_the_blockchain_on/ | 16:55 |
| yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name. | 16:55 |
| nsh | .title https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/32tcym/i_see_the_future_laseretching_the_blockchain_on/ | 16:55 |
| yoleaux | I see the future. Laser-etching the blockchain on the surface of the moon. It would be visible to everyone with a telescope. No internet needed. : Bitcoin | 16:55 |
| nsh | -- | 16:56 |
| nsh | <xentrac> So it turns out that the surface of the moon has space for several hundred petabytes of information encoded at a one-millimeter resolution that could be read from practically-sized terrestrial instruments. | 16:56 |
| nsh | <xentrac> And laser-printing on the moon should require less than a watt of power. | 16:56 |
| nsh | <xentrac> From Earth. | 16:56 |
| nsh | -- i am skeptical re the spacial resolution maths, and how you'd actually cause a visible reaction without any oxidising agents using laser power | 16:56 |
| moa | send buzz up there to play golf on it | 16:56 |
| * nsh smiles | 16:56 | |
| moa | mess up your balance | 16:56 |
| Taek | I was never comfortable with moon math | 16:57 |
| * Taek ducks | 16:57 | |
| moa | a distance time source for timestamping is a thought but you need and incorruptible mechanism for everybody to interpret it ... | 16:57 |
| nsh | .wa distance to moon from earth | 16:58 |
| yoleaux | Moon: distance from Earth: Current result: 390139 km (kilometers); Unit conversions: 242421 miles; 3.901×10⁸ meters; Comparison as distance: ~1.01 × mean Moon-Earth distance (3.85×10⁸ m); Corresponding quantities: Light travel time t in vacuum from t = x/c:: 1.3 seconds; Light travel time t in an optical fiber t = 1.48x/c:: 1.9 seconds | 16:58 |
| moa | what's that in AUs? | 16:58 |
| nsh | about the same as the ratio of the diameter of the moon to the diameter of the sun :) | 17:01 |
| moa | 1/389 then | 17:01 |
| moa | on average | 17:01 |
| frankenmint | yoleaux: earths atmosphere and space between that is a LOT of matter and particles to muck up resolution of said image - its like saying depend on your fingerprint for your password | 17:02 |
| nsh | you'd want to read and 'print' from high-orbit satellites | 17:02 |
| nsh | because screw the atmosphere | 17:02 |
| nsh | but i still don't know what 'print' means here | 17:02 |
| frankenmint | maybe passwords or sensitive documents that require an image overlay in cunjunction w/ a password to decrypt stuff | 17:03 |
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| gmaxwell | if you can laser edtch you can laser obliterate. | 17:16 |
| gmaxwell | there is a constantly reoccuring thread on alt.lasers on reasoning about the laser power needed to even _see_ a laser reflected off the moon excluding things like the retroreflector we placed there; its completely impraticle even given totally insane scifi budgets and state level support. | 17:18 |
| nsh | we could litter the surface with retroreflectors that operate like flip-flops | 17:20 |
| nsh | this is still completely impractical | 17:20 |
| Taek | you still have the problem of people writing bad data or trying to destroy/alter existing data | 17:21 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: retroreflectors with saturatable absorbers that go opaque after you shine on them for a while like a worm disk? :) | 17:21 |
| nsh | that would be a bit one-way, but i'd imagine you could have a bistable dye maybe | 17:22 |
| Adlai | can't we program the moon to verify etched data? | 17:22 |
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| gmaxwell | And this was how the grey goo began. | 17:22 |
| nsh | .t http://journals.aps.org/pra/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevA.47.2205 | 17:23 |
| yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name. | 17:23 |
| nsh | .title http://journals.aps.org/pra/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevA.47.2205 | 17:23 |
| yoleaux | Phys. Rev. A 47, 2205 (1993) - Stability analysis for an optical bistable dye system | 17:23 |
| nsh | (i like it when i have ideas and it turns out they aren't crazy) | 17:23 |
| nsh | (or that there are professional academics of equal craziness, at least) | 17:23 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: saturatable absorbers are actually used in production lasers today as an alternative to q-switches for pulsed operation. | 17:24 |
| nsh | oh, cool | 17:24 |
| gmaxwell | though those reset rather than being bi-stable. | 17:24 |
| nsh | how do they reset? | 17:24 |
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| nsh | oh, i see | 17:25 |
| nsh | -- | 17:26 |
| nsh | Absorption saturation, which results in decreased absorption at high incident light intensity, competes with other mechanisms (for example, increase in temperature, formation of color centers, etc.), which result in increased absorption.[3][4] In particular, saturable absorption is only one of several mechanisms that produce self-pulsation in lasers, especially in semiconductor lasers.[5] | 17:26 |
| nsh | One atom thick layer of carbon, graphene, can be seen with the naked eye because it absorbs approximately 2.3% of white light, which is π times fine-structure constant.[6] The saturable absorption response of graphene is wavelength independent from UV to IR, mid-IR and even to THz frequencies.[7][8][9] In rolled-up graphene sheets (carbon nanotubes), saturable absorption is dependent on diameter and chirality | 17:26 |
| nsh | -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturable_absorption#Saturation_fluence | 17:26 |
| nsh | (wrong anchor, sorry) | 17:27 |
| nsh | (browsers should autoselect the anchor when you copy text from an anchored page. in fact the entire clipboard system is backwards and awful) | 17:27 |
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| nsh | 833i-l | 17:30 |
| nsh | ^ (don't try to carry bottles of beer up the stairs by resting them in your laptop hinge) | 17:31 |
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| kanzure | "completely impraticle even given totally insane scifi budgets and state level support." | 18:00 |
| kanzure | well there goes my plans for causing remote whole-planetary chemical reactions | 18:00 |
| * nsh smiles | 18:01 | |
| nsh | stars have prior-art on that anyway | 18:01 |
| nsh | you don't want to deal with solar IP attack lawyers | 18:01 |
| moa | experimenting with extinction level events is not allowed? where's the freedom in that | 18:02 |
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| nsh | :) | 18:07 |
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| nsh | (humanity is an extinction level event, sadly) | 18:07 |
| moa | not for humans, at least as far as we know | 18:08 |
| nsh | right, at least until we ruin all the things we forgot to think hard enough about how interdependent we are with | 18:09 |
| nsh | .wik Holocene extinction | 18:09 |
| yoleaux | "The Holocene extinction, sometimes called the Sixth Extinction, is a name proposed to describe the currently ongoing extinction event of species during the present Holocene epoch (since around 10,000 BCE) mainly due to human activity." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction | 18:09 |
| nsh | (some great photos of things wot don't exist no more in that article) *sadfaec* | 18:10 |
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| moa | evolution is a dynamic process unfortunately, freezing in an artificial stasis 'cause we can would be unwise but accelerating it may also be dangerous, it's not a simple question | 18:15 |
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| nsh | it's probably possible to measure to define some proxy measurement of the healthiness of complex adaptive interpenetrating dynamic equilibria | 18:32 |
| nsh | we just don't tend to think in those terms | 18:32 |
| nsh | because we're upstart primates | 18:32 |
| nsh | *possible to define | 18:33 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 21:36 | |
| -!- Topic set by andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] [Fri Aug 22 14:51:37 2014] | 21:36 | |
| [Users #bitcoin-wizards] | 21:37 | |
| [@ChanServ ] [ cdecker ] [ gnusha ] [ kumavis ] [ nsh ] [ sparetire_ ] | 21:37 | |
| [ [7] ] [ cfields ] [ go1111111 ] [ kyuupichan ] [ nuke1989 ] [ spinza ] | 21:37 | |
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| [ azariah ] [ Eliel ] [ jbenet ] [ michagogo ] [ roasbeef ] [ wallet42 ] | 21:37 | |
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| [ brand0 ] [ frankenmint ] [ Keefe ] [ nanotube ] [ sl01 ] [ yoleaux ] | 21:37 | |
| [ btcdrak ] [ gavinand1esen ] [ kinlo ] [ narwh4l ] [ smooth ] [ yorick ] | 21:37 | |
| [ c0rw|zZz ] [ gavmatic ] [ kmels ] [ nephyrin ] [ sneak ] [ yrashk ] | 21:37 | |
| [ catcow ] [ gielbier ] [ koshii ] [ NewLiberty ] [ so ] [ zooko ] | 21:37 | |
| [ catlasshrugged] [ gmaxwell ] [ Krellan_ ] [ nickler ] [ sparetire ] [ Zouppen ] | 21:37 | |
| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 228 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 227 normal] | 21:37 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 21:37 | |
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| --- Log closed Fri May 22 00:00:18 2015 | ||
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