| --- Log opened Tue May 26 00:00:11 2015 | ||
| --- Day changed Tue May 26 2015 | ||
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| heath | http://www.jbonneau.com/doc/BFGKN14-bitcoin_bribery.pdf | 01:03 |
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| kanzure | "Bitcoin and Beyond: A Technical Survey on Decentralized Digital Currencies" https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/464.pdf abstract-only at https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/464 | 07:02 |
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| kanzure | eh nevermind. not particularly thorough analysis. | 07:09 |
| kanzure | i was expecting more like http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Research%20perspectives%20and%20challenges%20for%20Bitcoin%20and%20cryptocurrencies.pdf | 07:11 |
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| nsh | what was unthorough about it, kanzure? | 07:48 |
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| kanzure | nsh: well based on its analysis of proof of stake (and only one reference?) .... | 07:52 |
| * nsh nods | 07:53 | |
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| mrkent | Why does these two testnet block explorers have different blocks? http://tbtc.blockr.io/block/info/427652 http://explorer.chain.com/blocks/427652 | 12:42 |
| Taek | https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/37bnbv/important_fork_update/ | 12:42 |
| Taek | ethereum learns that running implementations of consensus code in multiple languages can lead to hardforks | 12:43 |
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| hulkhogan_ | i sort of don't understand why they had to reimplement it three or more times just to launch it | 12:46 |
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| Adlai | it was lonely without all the python and C++ clients | 12:46 |
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| Eliel | maybe they want to avoid getting locked into a single implementation by diversifying early? | 13:08 |
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| gmaxwell | Eliel: unavoidable; certantly good to have multiple implementations to help _expose_ issues; but that doesn't itself remove the consensus risk from it. | 13:15 |
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| GGuyZ | Not really bitcoin but perhaps someone could help :) | 14:39 |
| GGuyZ | I'm trying to prove that a given set of shares cannot reconstruct a valid degree t polynomial. The verifier should at most know a commitment of these shares, but not the shares themselves. Any idea how to solve this? I'm thinking SNARKs but not sure if that's a good fit. | 14:39 |
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| GGuyZ | G* | 14:41 |
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| gmaxwell | oops | 14:41 |
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| GGuyZ | Actually I have a solution | 14:52 |
| gmaxwell | GGuyZ: sorry just saw your question. Your question is insufficently clear to me. | 14:53 |
| gmaxwell | Soemone can always know more shares that they leave out of the proof. | 14:53 |
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| GGuyZ | Thanks, | 15:21 |
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| GGuyZ | I'll try to be more clear if the line of thinking I'm trying doesn't work out. Tried to keep my question brief but I see why it lacks substance that way. | 15:24 |
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| gmaxwell | yea, understood. Sometimes it's just hard to tell what you're trying to accomplish. I'm guessing you want some commitment X and then prove that x,y,z,C(q),C(r) where x,y,z are shares of X and C(q), R(r) are commitments to shares of x. | 15:32 |
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| gmaxwell | (where X = C(x)) and some verifier wants to know that the shares agree with C(x). | 15:33 |
| gmaxwell | So long as your commitment scheme is additively homorphic you should just be able to take the shares and the commited shares and interpoate the commitment to x. | 15:33 |
| gmaxwell | and if you have all the shares (in either direct or commited form) then you can just try every interpolation. | 15:34 |
| gmaxwell | (uh, I made some variable name screwups above; so ignoring those...) | 15:34 |
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| andytoshi | GGuyZ: ignoring concerns about what your goal is (and if it can be subverted by simply hiding information, say), it's unlikely you can prove anything about polynomial construct | 16:11 |
| andytoshi | constructibility without something as powerful as multilinear maps | 16:11 |
| HostFat | I've wrote my opinion about the block size debate https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37du43/market_of_blocks | 16:14 |
| andytoshi | well, if you are OK with having large proofs, you can prove that a bunch of points G, xG, x^2G, x^3G, etc are constructed honestly with simultaneous schnorr signatures, cf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.117.5343 which does something similar. then you can prove linear equations in x, x^2, x^3, etc using standard discrete log techniques | 16:16 |
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| gmaxwell | HostFat: Your post is uninformed with respect to how block propagation works. | 16:24 |
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| gmaxwell | HostFat: most large miners (and anyone who wants) use the block relay protocol for relaying blocks, it transmits blocks with time which is essentially unrelated to the size of the blocks. | 16:25 |
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| gmaxwell | (it's technically linear but with a very small constant) | 16:25 |
| HostFat | do you mean transmitting to other miners or to all nodes? | 16:26 |
| gmaxwell | HostFat: To whatever extent the size/time relation is consequential thats a pressure to centeralize in and of itself, since the more centeralized party isn't harmed by those costs. | 16:26 |
| gmaxwell | HostFat: to anyone interested in recieving them efficiently; though transmitting to other nodes isn't time critical in terms of miners incomes or incentives. | 16:27 |
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| HostFat | so there is something that I don't know and/or missing. Can a miner release a 100 MB block all the time and still arrive before miners that release blocks of 1 MB? | 16:28 |
| gmaxwell | HostFat: Yes. | 16:29 |
| HostFat | woha! | 16:29 |
| gmaxwell | HostFat: Almost all (or all, if you just avoid adding very new txn to your blocks) the transactions are already communicated and verified; and don't need to be transmitted again. | 16:30 |
| gmaxwell | HostFat: The block relay protocol just sends a list of two byte indexes to previously communicted txids/txn; technically is possible to build protocols even more efficient than that using set reconcilation; but at two bytes per transaction you can specify all the transactions for a block hundreds of megs in size without a round trip; and its already widely deployed. Future protocols that just sen | 16:31 |
| gmaxwell | d the discrepency between the block and an implied mempool would be even more efficient but because of cpu costs aren't likely a win without really gigantic blocks. | 16:31 |
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| gmaxwell | But even if we ignore this, and pretend the block relay protocol didn't exist and wasn't widely used-- go with your original knoweldge: lets say it is proportional. In that world miners could immediately make more income by moving to a bigger pool, which can produce bigger blocks for a given amount of orphaning risk; as the pool will not orphan itself. | 16:32 |
| HostFat | hmm, but smaller pools/miners will still able to arrive to more nodes than the bigger pool, and even if there are two bigger pools, they will compete each other to arrive to the majority of nodes (if we still think that tis relay protocol doesn't exist) | 16:35 |
| HostFat | by making smaller blocks | 16:36 |
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| gmaxwell | HostFat: if you imagine it doesn't exist, thats true but you can always increase your competitiveness by either increasing centeralization or decreasing blocksize. And if you are more centeralized than someone else you can use a larger block size (more fee income), meaning that if mining is at an equlibrium you might be making 0.1% more (say) and turning a profit, while the less centeralized min | 16:37 |
| gmaxwell | er is losing money. | 16:37 |
| gmaxwell | Block relay protocol was created to try to mitigate some of that centeralization pressure that was pushing the network to only one or two pools last year-ish. | 16:38 |
| HostFat | so the block relay protocol is enabled for all nodes currently, right? | 16:39 |
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| gmaxwell | HostFat: it's something you download seperately. I think all major miners use it (they'd be foolish not to!) but there is no way to tell for sure. In any case, since anyone can trivially install it and we know that most of the hashpower uses it, it more or less moots your argument about some kind of market force there. (since the thing you'd do isn't decrease your blocksize, you'd install the blo | 16:41 |
| gmaxwell | ck relay network client) | 16:41 |
| HostFat | ok | 16:41 |
| phantomcircuit | HostFat, it's almost important to note that larger miners can afford significantly more bandwidth than smaller decentralized miners | 16:42 |
| phantomcircuit | to give you an idea i had a 10gbps line pushing blocks out in addition to the relay network | 16:42 |
| phantomcircuit | (even the 10gbps line wasn't enough, to get really good propagation i was proposing 10x that) | 16:42 |
| HostFat | that its true, but I don't see this as a problem, if it spread in a good way to all the nodes, than it's ok. | 16:43 |
| gmaxwell | HostFat: There is another bit to consider there. Technically as a miner your income is optimized if only half the hashrate (including yourself) hears your block quickly; it's preferable that the rest takes a while to hear it (as it increases their orphaning rate). | 16:43 |
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| HostFat | the example of the 56k is good explain this I think | 16:44 |
| gmaxwell | I don't believe anyone substantive is acting so strategically now; but if you want to terms about income maximizing behavior and market forces, it's something to consider; esp since the system self adapts towards zero profits. Meaning that it's possible that anyone who doesn't engage in that behavior may end up operating at a loss. | 16:44 |
| HostFat | "it's something you download seperately. I think all major miners use it" so the majority of nodes aren't using it | 16:46 |
| gmaxwell | (and the selfish mining paper argues that the above also means that if a pool mines selfishly they only want it to be heard by a third (themselves included), and if so additional participants will make more if they join their pool vs some other one... e.g. arguing the marginal return on centeralizating instead of the direct effect shifts the threshold to 1/3rd instead of 1/2.) | 16:47 |
| gmaxwell | HostFat: They're not-- but it doesn't matter to miners what non-miners are using for that. (presumably they'll someday use it: it _halves_ the amount of bandwidth staying in sync with the blockchain takes; it just hasn't been a priority to formalize the protocol for use in Bitcoin Core) | 16:48 |
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| HostFat | so if there will be the block relay protocol on all the nodes, than it will be more likely a CPU problem than a bandwitch problem, right? | 16:50 |
| gmaxwell | HostFat: accepting a block is neglible CPU, because again, the transactions are almots all (or all if miners delay accepting txn into blocks) already verified and relayed. They don't get verified a second time. | 16:51 |
| gmaxwell | So the only cpu thats technically needed at accept time is verifying the hash agreement. And a boring desktop cpu can do on the order of 24 million sha256() compression calls in a second. | 16:52 |
| gmaxwell | Before all the caching and such some miners had taken to just disabling validation on their nodes. :( (we recently had a problem with a miner with 1-2%-ish of the hashrate running with all signature validation disabled; causing them to mine transactions that were non-standard and had some risk of forking the network) | 16:53 |
| HostFat | so now in this future case (block relay protocol on all the nodes), I'm missing the problem for bigger blocks ... | 16:54 |
| gmaxwell | Presumably because you misunderstood the problem in the first place? :) | 16:54 |
| HostFat | probably :) | 16:54 |
| HostFat | I thought that it was a bandwitch problem | 16:55 |
| gmaxwell | None of this reduces the cost of verifying the network (except by constant factors), it only takes it out of the critical path of accepting a block. | 16:55 |
| HostFat | and by what I'm understanding about the block relay protocol, it seems fixing it | 16:55 |
| HostFat | hmm | 16:55 |
| gmaxwell | It's a one time halving of bandwidth costs, but you still must recive, verify, and potentially store the transactoin data. | 16:56 |
| gmaxwell | If your limit is bandwidth vs CPU depends on how much bandwidth you can tolerate the node using. OpenSSL can process signatures at about IIRC 11MBit-of-transaction-data/sec. libsecp256k1, once we can deploy it, increases that about 5-6x-- assuming you have a 3.2GHz quad core cpu dedicated to verifying transactions; and that you never go offline or fall behind (because if the offered load is actua | 17:00 |
| gmaxwell | lly that great you can never catch up if you fall behind). | 17:00 |
| gmaxwell | Also assuming that we never deploy new features that shift the cost per byte processed up at all. E.g. no cryptographic confidentiality for transactions. If we do then that twizzles those numbers around. | 17:00 |
| HostFat | by this way it seems that the problem are the tx that can be too many ... and the blocks are used to limit them on the network, to limit the CPU works on nodes ... | 17:06 |
| HostFat | work* | 17:06 |
| HostFat | it's late here, I'll think about it more tomorrow | 17:08 |
| akrmn | andytoshi: I read most of the sidechains paper (I was talking to you on Saturday). Is a waiting period really necessary? If you force all miners mining on a subchain to also mine on the parent chain, and always take priority of what the parent chain says (in case of conflicts), then I don't see what the problem is. The miners on the parent chain can decide themselves whether to accept a transaction from a child chain, and then the | 17:10 |
| gmaxwell | "if you force"; yes no waiting is required if you eliminate the isolation between the networks (and the system becomes one security domain). Loss of isolation is explicitly called out as a risk in the sidechains whitepaper; because the motivation for the design is to allow a seperation of concerns. | 17:11 |
| akrmn | gmaxwell: But what is the risk to the top chain? | 17:12 |
| gmaxwell | Otherwise it's isomorphic to just softforking in the sidechain into the main chain. Which is what it is. (e.g. brings up the problem that bad software or resource usage causes harm) | 17:12 |
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| gmaxwell | akrmn: in that model you cannot mine it (know that it is valid) without validing the data below it, exposing you to the costs and risks asscoiated with doing so. | 17:13 |
| akrmn | gmaxwell: The top chain miners don't have to mine the subchains | 17:14 |
| akrmn | Just the other way around | 17:14 |
| akrmn | Well ya, you can validate the bottom transactions, but it's your choice, and you will get fees if you do, so there's an incentive | 17:15 |
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| akrmn | o ok, ya I guess you have to validate | 17:16 |
| akrmn | but if someone pays for a transaction, I don't see any problem with validating it, or any risk, but maybe I'm missing something. | 17:16 |
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| gmaxwell | akrmn: "if someone pays" -- they emphatically do not pay, and cannot pay. Every verifier in the network takes the cost of verifying data. Only the miner choosing to admit a transaction can get paid. | 17:17 |
| gmaxwell | So e.g. one party accepts the transaction, gets paid, and 100,000 nodes take a cost. (plus all the future nodes who haven't even joined yet) | 17:18 |
| GGuyZ | gmaxwell: Thanks. I'm actually doing just that, but I also wanted to allow some amount of public verification without sending the entire transcript of commitments and operations (should have been more clear about succinctness). | 17:19 |
| akrmn | well I'll think about it | 17:19 |
| GGuyZ | Anyway, I basically solved it by creating a commitment to the final output (blinding it) and have those shares publicly verifiable (everyone can reconstruct). Then, the entire transcript can also be inspected but only if something seems suspicious. | 17:20 |
| nsh | \o/ | 17:21 |
| GGuyZ | And it is additively homomorphic (simple Shamir's scheme) with multiplication solved using beaver triplets, so it should work. | 17:22 |
| GGuyZ | andytoshi: Thanks as well! Will look into it out of curiosity, though I don't think it's the best fit for my use case. | 17:22 |
| nsh | .wik Beaver triplets cryptography | 17:22 |
| yoleaux | "" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tompw/Books/Mathematics | 17:22 |
| nsh | (not on wikipedia at all, sadly) | 17:24 |
| GGuyZ | Yeah, it's hard to come by but pretty a pretty common optimization | 17:24 |
| GGuyZ | http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F3-540-46766-1_34#page-1 | 17:24 |
| GGuyZ | ^. Unfortunately, it's not open access. | 17:25 |
| nsh | [Beaver and Feigenbaum '00]? | 17:25 |
| nsh | oh, no, more recent | 17:26 |
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| GGuyZ | The link I posted | 17:26 |
| GGuyZ | Actually it's older | 17:26 |
| GGuyZ | But became more commonly used in recent years AFAIK. | 17:27 |
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| GGuyZ | It's a variation of BGW multiplication protocol | 17:27 |
| * nsh nods | 17:29 | |
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| nsh | ah, i recall the BWG honesty bounds | 17:29 |
| nsh | *BGW | 17:29 |
| nsh | ( proved here: https://eprint.iacr.org/2011/136.pdf ) | 17:30 |
| * gmaxwell hits the words "semi-honest" and closes the window | 17:31 | |
| gmaxwell | :P | 17:31 |
| gmaxwell | (not really, just so frustrated by the focus on the useless semi-honest moderl; I do see that that paper (atypically) goes beyond that toy model) | 17:32 |
| GGuyZ | :D | 17:34 |
| GGuyZ | Semi-honest is a great starting point. It just can't be the finish line. | 17:34 |
| petertodd | GGuyZ: semi-honest is a great starting point, in the same way that kindergarden is a solid foundation for a phd | 17:35 |
| GGuyZ | nsh: Yeah, the full proof is surprisingly recent. I even remember reading somewhere that they've been working on it for years. | 17:35 |
| GGuyZ | petertodd: can't argue with that :) | 17:35 |
| GGuyZ | I might actually steal that ;) | 17:36 |
| petertodd | GGuyZ: hehe, go it; I want credit :) | 17:36 |
| GGuyZ | Will be rightfully attributed | 17:37 |
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| gmaxwell | GGuyZ: depends on what you're doing, but I usually encounter things where semi-honest is very nearly worthless and where the protocols to boost semi-honest to malicious security dwarf the complexity/assumptions. I think this is actually a serious problem for cryptosystem research which has contributed to the near total lack of industrial deployment. | 17:40 |
| gmaxwell | ... because the research keeps coping up with constructs that engineers respond to "wait, I have to assume they'll follow the protocol? Why don't I just assume they don't keep logs too", and the like. | 17:41 |
| GGuyZ | http://i.imgur.com/q8XPe4s.png?1 <-- petertodd | 17:41 |
| jcorgan | Spherical Cow Syndrome | 17:42 |
| GGuyZ | gmaxwell: I'm inclined to agree. I'd argue that there's a positive change in attitude in recent years (Bitcoin is some sort of a catalyst). | 17:43 |
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| gmaxwell | Well at least with Bitcoin I can tell people with complete confidence "I _will_ use this, if it's secure in the malicious model, and won't consider it otherwise." wherease pre-bitcoin it was more like "Maybe I'll use it someday." | 17:44 |
| petertodd | GGuyZ: haha, amazing | 17:44 |
| GGuyZ | I was in SP15 last week and you can see a more realistic attitude in general | 17:44 |
| petertodd | GGuyZ: maybe make my name a shade lighter :P | 17:44 |
| gmaxwell | There are a lot of ZK protocols where the semi-honest is so complex that its complexity alone is a serious impediment to any deployment. | 17:44 |
| GGuyZ | petertodd: Blame those cheap online generators :). Don't worry, if it's ever in my presentation it will be in shining gold :D | 17:45 |
| petertodd | GGuyZ: heh | 17:45 |
| GGuyZ | gmaxwell: Got an example? Anyway, I think part of the problem is the modeling of the assumptions. | 17:46 |
| GGuyZ | They are either too strict for proving correctness or too light like semi-honest. In any case, they tend to become so detached from real-world assumptions that they stay within the community | 17:47 |
| GGuyZ | research community that is, but are never deployed. | 17:47 |
| gmaxwell | GGuyZ: well people also like showing properties that are needlessly strong. Like, there is a huge emphasis on standard model assumptions, because you can break some random oracle secure protocols in a completely contrived setup. Or some domains focus on information theoretic privacy, which is basically never pratical (any implementation will use a CSPRNG).. and sometimes those decisions force th | 17:49 |
| gmaxwell | ings into a weaker (e.g. semi-honest model). | 17:49 |
| GGuyZ | Exactly, but this is obviously a spectrum. For example, it doesn't make sense to focus on the standard model and I.T security, and then assume semi-honesty. | 17:50 |
| gmaxwell | GGuyZ: I think, in general, that anything more complex than a schnorr signature is complex enough that it risks no one being willing to implement it. You can see this in the wild-- there are basically no implementations for more complex protocols. It's not a bright line, but the space of people willing to implement drops of spectacularly; at about that complexity. (There are exceptions, e.g. pe | 17:51 |
| gmaxwell | rcy++ implements a bunch of non-trivial PIR: But I know of _no_ publically available usable implementations of, say even a simple polynomial private set intersection) | 17:51 |
| GGuyZ | Better to make some realistic model assumptions (random oracle, computational security, CRS, etc ...) and not assume that everyone's following the rules | 17:51 |
| * nsh is mentally trying to compare gmaxwell's progress-pace frustrations with how people (or himself, at least) felt about the semantic web that never happened | 17:52 | |
| nsh | i'd say you're making stellar progress, comparatively | 17:52 |
| gmaxwell | GGuyZ: except people go and do that. They prove in the standard model, and then the lack of a RO ends up needing a trusted setup or a n honest verifier or whatever; which implies semi-honest of some kind. If they instead took an RO assumption, then perhaps the semi-honest falls away. Schnorr ID protocol is an example of this. It's HVZK, but if you repliace the verifier challenge with a random o | 17:53 |
| gmaxwell | racle, you get a schnorr signature and it's secure against a malicious challenger. | 17:53 |
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| GGuyZ | You're preaching to the choir :). | 17:54 |
| GGuyZ | I'm a bit optimistic because there are some (not the majority) that are trying to change that. | 17:54 |
| GGuyZ | Which is something that started less than a decade ago | 17:54 |
| GGuyZ | (and it will probably take some more time before we see things really change in practice) | 17:55 |
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| * nsh rewatches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1TxCiOuoYY | 19:11 | |
| nsh | .t | 19:11 |
| yoleaux | Wed, 27 May 2015 02:12:45 UTC | 19:11 |
| nsh | .title | 19:11 |
| yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. | 19:11 |
| nsh | (Winter School on Cryptography: Fully Homomorphic Encryption - Craig Gentry) | 19:12 |
| nsh | inspired by GGuyZ :) | 19:12 |
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| nsh | (and other things) | 19:12 |
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| GGuyZ | :D | 19:14 |
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| nsh | maybe homomorphic encryption and langsec complexity-reduced programming languages will meet in the middle | 19:17 |
| nsh | and we'll have nice things | 19:17 |
| nsh | ( Crema: A Sub-Turing Programming Language -- https://github.com/ainfosec/crema -- http://spw15.langsec.org/slides/torrey-crema-slides.pdf -- http://spw15.langsec.org/papers/torrey-crema.pdf | 19:18 |
| nsh | ) | 19:18 |
| nsh | well, this isn't even a maybe | 19:18 |
| GGuyZ | Hmm | 19:18 |
| GGuyZ | Too bad I missed it | 19:19 |
| GGuyZ | Was presented last week | 19:19 |
| nsh | yeah, i'd have loved to go to that conf. but USA still off-limits for me indefinitely for silly reasons | 19:19 |
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| nsh | i'll try and coerce them into having one in europe soon | 19:20 |
| zooko | Hm. | 19:20 |
| * zooko looks at crema. | 19:21 | |
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| GGuyZ | I think they mentioned something about having EURO S&P next year | 19:21 |
| GGuyZ | It may have been just a proposal though | 19:21 |
| * zooko casts Summon Daira. | 19:21 | |
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| zooko | Hiya tromp! | 19:22 |
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| daira2 | hello | 19:22 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: interesting link, will read. My frustration is that it appears that to subset far enough to make program _equivilence_ decidable, you have to be very limited. And man, decidablity of equivilence would be really nice. | 19:23 |
| tromp__ | hi, Zooko | 19:23 |
| zooko | Hello daira! Sub-Turing proglang for langsec! | 19:23 |
| zooko | /msg daira <nsh> ( Crema: A Sub-Turing Programming Language -- | 19:23 |
| zooko | https://github.com/ainfosec/crema -- | 19:23 |
| zooko | http://spw15.langsec.org/slides/torrey-crema-slides.pdf -- | 19:23 |
| zooko | http://spw15.langsec.org/papers/torrey-crema.pdf | 19:23 |
| zooko | ha. | 19:23 |
| * zooko fails at IRC. | 19:23 | |
| daira2 | thanks! | 19:23 |
| GGuyZ | lol | 19:23 |
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| gmaxwell | roconnor ^ the crema links above may be to your interest. | 19:25 |
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| daira2 | "Whereas traditional verification problems implicitly assume that the underlying computational model of the code they target cannot be substantially simplified, LangSec posits that such simplification can and should be considered for input-parsing routines—as an important step toward security assurance." | 19:26 |
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| daira2 | btw I think that conventional wisdom about needing Turing-complete languages for most tasks, is entirely wrong... | 19:27 |
| daira2 | not just for parsing or input validation, but in general | 19:28 |
| zooko | +1 | 19:28 |
| * daira2 continues reading | 19:28 | |
| bsm117532 | Can anyone provide a one-sentence description of how they break turing completeness? I'm at the end of their talk and don't see a concise statement. | 19:28 |
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| gmaxwell | daira2: it's trivially probably wrong in the context of Bitcoin Script. The task of bitcoin script is to decide that certian (arbritarily complex) conditions are met for permitting a transaction. _Verification_ of the truth of an NP statement which the prover has a witness to is a task in _P_ itself, not NP. Q.E.D. | 19:29 |
| daira2 | actually you need more than a Turing a-machine in many cases (for interaction with an environment and nondeterminism), and less in other cases | 19:30 |
| tromp__ | bsm117532: i think they forbid revisiting TM machine states already visited | 19:30 |
| gmaxwell | But that kind of argument isn't constructive, so it doesn't guide e.g. what shape a language should have for optimal expression of the kinds of tests which are useful for transactions. | 19:30 |
| GGuyZ | daira2: +2 | 19:30 |
| daira2 | gmaxwell: are you aware of total functional programming? it seems like a good fit here | 19:32 |
| gmaxwell | daira2: I am! this was also maaku's suggestion. | 19:32 |
| GGuyZ | gmaxwell: Could still do a lot more then verifying NP statements. Plenty other problems in P that don't require TC :) | 19:32 |
| bsm117532 | tromp__: Is that enough to solve the halting problem? | 19:33 |
| gmaxwell | GGuyZ: I know, I just mean that there is litterally nothing that anyone could ever _require_ of bitcoin script that requires NP; because what bitcoin script is doing is fundimentally verification not computation. | 19:33 |
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| tromp__ | it would seem to limit runtime to the number of finite control states | 19:34 |
| bsm117532 | Revisiting a previously visited state is an indication of an infinite loop. But I can also just write integers to the tape, increasing its length...also doesn't halt. But perhaps it enables provable termination? | 19:34 |
| midnightmagic | hi daira2 I believe this is the first time I've seen you talk in here except for a 'nod' back in december 2013. :) yay welcome. | 19:34 |
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| daira2 | hi midnightmagic :-) | 19:35 |
| zooko | :-) | 19:35 |
| GGuyZ | Yes yes, I understand. I'm just pointing out the irony of people claiming you need TC for computation. | 19:35 |
| bsm117532 | Is daira2 Satoshi!??!! | 19:35 |
| daira2 | that would be telling | 19:35 |
| GGuyZ | (for all serious computation that is. For some, that's true) | 19:36 |
| gmaxwell | (I'm mostly making noise because it's a peeve of mine that people talk about turing complete script as if it added capability; ... or as if it were even possible in a pedantic sense (the nodes are time and storage bounded); or as if Bitcoin script were not already equivilent powerful as a particular-time-space-bounded universal turing machine (it has controlled swap, after all)). | 19:36 |
| GGuyZ | Agreed, | 19:37 |
| daira2 | so, you probably don't need (and don't want, for security reasons) a very complicated termination prover for Bitcoin scripts | 19:37 |
| GGuyZ | and on another note total functional programming looks cool. | 19:37 |
| daira2 | you probably don't even need recursion | 19:38 |
| gmaxwell | And mostly that irritation is because it makes people ignore the really interesting questions that lead to real advancement, like how can we make script more succinct in verification? Or how can a Bitcoin Script be constructed so as to make it most expressive while almost easy to rigorously statically analyize. "Can this contract be executed in a way I don't expect?" | 19:38 |
| bsm117532 | gmaxwell: I've long been bothered that the Halting Problem halted serious research into provably-correct code. | 19:38 |
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| bsm117532 | See also the Godel Incompleteness theorem and all of mathematics throwing their hands up. | 19:39 |
| GGuyZ | If you pay per instruction or some other discrete measure, TC in any case is irrelevant, since that limits the computations anyway | 19:39 |
| gmaxwell | bsm117532: yea, for many things-- esp things like analyizing a smart contract just returning "I cannot tell" is a fine and highly useful result (do not use contracts your tools can't reason about!). | 19:39 |
| daira2 | right, static analyzability is really important here | 19:39 |
| daira2 | bsm117532: +1! | 19:40 |
| gmaxwell | bsm117532: the interesting thing is how much language design results in sanely constructed ordinary programs returning "I cannot tell"... and I believe that there is a huge potential for impact there. | 19:40 |
| gmaxwell | (er, results in analysis on sanely constructed...) | 19:41 |
| daira2 | termination proving is not hard if you require programmers to give loop variants | 19:41 |
| GGuyZ | Isn't there research on bounded provably correct code? | 19:41 |
| bsm117532 | Provable complexity tied to a calculated tx fee by static analysis would be way better than Ethereum's "gas" (and having it run out on non-halting TC code) | 19:42 |
| gmaxwell | plus human factors considerations, IMO Bitcoin script is actually really readable with a bit of practice (e.g. if you're already comfortable with HP calculators and RPL); but type ambiguity makes it harder to reason about formally. | 19:42 |
| tromp__ | the simply typed lambda calculus is strongly normalizing (i.e. total) but still has no reasonable bound on reduction length | 19:43 |
| daira2 | anyway, you don't just want termination for this application, you want bounded runtime | 19:43 |
| gmaxwell | bsm117532: I dunno about that, I mean, network consensus normative static analysis sounds like "box of dragons" | 19:43 |
| bsm117532 | Indeed. Just a thought. | 19:43 |
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| daira2 | let's see, I seem to remember reading some research on that topic (bounding runtime) | 19:45 |
| * daira2 googles | 19:46 | |
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| bsm117532 | I've got a plan brewing to build sidechains with different consensus rules implemented by a virtual machine. | 19:46 |
| bsm117532 | It would be very cool if that virtual machine was not turing complete. You don't want to accidentally discover that your consensus rules do not halt. | 19:47 |
| daira2 | oh, Lustre and QDDC | 19:47 |
| daira2 | but they're more expressive than needed here | 19:49 |
| daira2 | we don't need concurrency | 19:50 |
| * daira2 looks for something simpler | 19:50 | |
| daira2 | actually I'm too tired right now, will look tomorrow | 19:52 |
| daira2 | 'night all | 19:53 |
| daira2 | oh, while I remember... | 19:54 |
| daira2 | I think it doors make sense to use something similar to Ethereum's gas for dynamic enforcement of a bound on runtime... | 19:55 |
| daira2 | s/doors/does/ | 19:56 |
| GGuyZ | The problem is fire and forget. | 19:56 |
| GGuyZ | You need to gamble on how many steps your computation will take | 19:57 |
| daira2 | but *also* to statically prove that the runtime check will not fail... | 19:57 |
| daira2 | because that way, the consensus rules don't have to be dependent on the static prover | 19:58 |
| daira2 | the parties to a contract can agree on a prover independently of anyone else | 19:59 |
| GGuyZ | You mean having a prover that's not the signer of the tx? | 19:59 |
| daira2 | probably there would be some library of available provers, and the parties to a smart contract would just pick one that was powerful enough to prove that that particular contract will not run out of gas | 20:02 |
| zooko | gotta run you awesome folks. | 20:03 |
| daira2 | but a bug in one of those provers wouldn't be disastrous, it would only affect contracts that has relied on it (and most contracts would use a simple one) | 20:03 |
| daira2 | s/has/had/ | 20:03 |
| daira2 | OK, I need to sleep | 20:04 |
| GGuyZ | That's actually a very interesting idea | 20:04 |
| GGuyZ | g'night | 20:04 |
| GGuyZ | I'm off too. | 20:05 |
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| daira2 | (that idea doesn't just apply to runtime, it could be used for any similar property) | 20:07 |
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| gmaxwell | GGuyZ: what you want, when speficying a contract, is a proof that the witness size/complexity will unconditionally be below some cost tolerance bound. | 20:34 |
| gmaxwell | In Bitcoin Script, as it is today, it's trivial to completely sure of that. | 20:35 |
| gmaxwell | I think total functional languages would also, generally, make it fairly straight forward to reason about the maximum witness size. | 20:38 |
| gmaxwell | As far as resource counters go, there isn't anything fundimentally ugly about them; other than if there is a limit and you don't have the above mentioned analysis, some trickster could get you to agree to a contract where some satisfaction you were counting on (e.g. refund if the counterparty cheats) has an infeasably huge size. | 20:40 |
| gmaxwell | There are pratical challenges with cost metrics in that the correct costing is implementation specific, but the cost behavior is network normative. | 20:41 |
| gmaxwell | (this applies no less to what bitcoin does-- bitcoin already costs out script: just by charging for size; but as the OP_CHECKSIG attacks show, getting the cost weights wrong can have consequences!) | 20:42 |
| gmaxwell | E.g. an example of this is we will eventually deploy improvements to OP_CHECKSIG that make it 6x+ faster. Had it been costed out assuming that it cost 3000x more than a OP_SHA256 after that improvement the costs would be wildly out of whack. | 20:43 |
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