2015-05-29.log

--- Log opened Fri May 29 00:00:19 2015
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Elielyep, that 60% is calculated using current block reward (25 BTC) and assuming the exchange rate is 1000000 USD/BTC :P02:28
Eliel(and assuming 50% of the block reward ends up being used for electricity)02:29
TaekTIL we spend $72m / hr on electricity. I guess that's a lot.02:35
Taekactually that's a gross simplification of how things work. Also I forgot to divide by 202:37
nshheavy electricity should be counted separately to regular electricity tbh02:48
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Elielregarding this bc.i randomness fail. Would it generate acceptable randomness to use the camera, then sha256 the raw image data and use that for private key or random seed?04:36
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jonasschnelliEliel: why not. But adding some accelerometer "true" randomness is probably more straight forward and end user friendlier.04:39
Elielah, true, accelerometer data has quite a bit of noise in it too.04:40
wumpusdo be aware the all kinds of devices can pretend to be there, but not actually send true data. At least you should combine it with OS entropy (eg /dev/random).04:40
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jonasschnelliAgree with wumpus: only extend the system provided (/dev/random) entropy and not replace it.04:41
STRMLTry haveged if you're feeling brave04:42
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Elielwumpus: that's a good point. Would need to verify there's entropy available somehow before using.04:43
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wumpusand that's not really possible to verify; the CCD chip could be sending you random-looking test patterns04:44
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hearnEliel: it should be unnecessary04:50
hearnEliel: remember that if the OS is doing its job correctly *all* sensor data is fed into the entropy pool04:50
hearnEliel: also good luck explaining to users why you want them to take a photo of anything at all :)04:51
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Elieldoes an app with rights to use the camera need the user to knowingly take a picture for the picture to be taken?04:56
nsh(no)04:56
nsh(but the inside of one pocket looks a lot like another)04:56
nshhow many GPS sats is the average phone connected to at once?04:57
hearnthe user will be looking at the screen at the moment the photo is taken anyway04:57
hearnnsh: average phone? zero :) bear in mind lots of users will be indoors04:57
nshthat's a lot of pretty casually-independent fine-grained timers with other jitter04:57
nshgood point04:57
hearnanyway, like i said, the hardware drivers are meant to feed data into the entropy pool anyway04:57
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* nsh nods04:57
hearnwithout a doubt, some phones have some drivers that ignore some entropy and don't do that04:57
wumpusEliel: the user will hear the photo-sound04:57
hearna survey of how badly phone kernel developers screw this up would be an interesting academic exercise04:58
jonasschnelliHa. Right. That's why it would be probably a good idea to force add some accelerometer data to the entropy.04:59
Elielnsh: I don't expect good entropy from the picture. I expect good entropy from the noise :P04:59
jonasschnellii remember the last android RNG flaw we had.04:59
* nsh nds05:00
STRMLhas anyone run haveged on android?05:01
Elielthere's millions of pixels sampled with the worst of the cameras. Would take pretty darn good camera to not manage to get 256 bits of entropy in there :)05:01
jonasschnelliEliel: i kinda like the idea with the camera. It proved independence from the system RNG. If i would use a smartphone wallet, i would use a such feature during creation of a bip32 master seed.05:03
wumpusbut how random and independent is sensor noise?05:03
jonasschnelliImaging: "creating random seed" (then show some accelerometer movement and slowly build up a pixel-art with some sensor noise during loading of multiple camera pictures)05:04
jonasschnelli(and it could truly be a marketing booster. :)05:05
wumpusanyhow - feeding extra data into your entropy pool is never harmful (as long as you combine it in a sensible way, there have been mistakes with that too), but don't rely on it, and always combine in OS's cryptographic randomness as well05:06
Elielwumpus: Well, if it was easy to predict, I'd expect we'd have noiseless cameras by now.05:06
wumpusEliel: it may be too expensive to predict on the hardware itself, but still possible to reduce entropy by analysing the specific camera's noise profile (e.g. by looking at other photo's of the user)05:09
nshwumpus, adding extra data never harmful is disproved iirc constructively by djb or someone05:09
nsh(if you know the details of the mixing/whitening then you can add harmful data)05:09
wumpusnsh: if you combine it in a sensible way, e.g. hash it together with sha256 I don't see how it can be harmful05:10
sl01http://blog.cr.yp.to/20140205-entropy.html05:10
nshit may be contingent on suboptimal mixing05:10
wumpusnsh: (that's why I said combine it in a sensible way, if your combination algorithm can be exploited, sure...)05:10
* nsh nods05:10
sl01it depends on the evil random source knowing the other randomness, then brute forcing a certain output (in the case of hashing)05:11
Elielwumpus: that's why I'm not trying to get more than 256 bits of entropy out of it, even though I believe there's enough in a picture for a few hundred kilobytes of random.05:11
wumpussl01: yes, the random sources need to be as independent as possible05:11
wumpusif they can 'collude' in some way, no amount of mixing will save you05:11
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Elielmany years ago, I tested recording microphone channel from the soundcard (without a microphone connected), took only the least significant bit of each byte and then fed the data to an open source tool designed to analyze the quality of randomness. It passed all tests no problems.05:15
sl01just read the blockchain issue, that's so lol05:15
nsh(also, collusion can be coerced by external influence / entrainment. cf.05:15
nsh.wik injection locking05:16
yoleaux"Injection locking and injection pulling are the frequency effects that can occur when a harmonic oscillator is disturbed by a second oscillator operating at a nearby frequency." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_locking05:16
nsh)05:16
STRMLunfortunately there isn't a good way to know if random data that passes the tests is unpredictable or not05:16
STRMLbest you can hope for IMO is to mix a lot of good sources together and hope nobody has the means or the motivation to untangle it05:16
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wumpusEliel: another thing to consider: could another application take a photo at exactly the same moment?05:19
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Elielwumpus: Wouldn't that mean you're already compromised?05:21
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sl01why not just host their own randomness web service and sign randomness with a predistributed key05:23
sl01seems better than "phone randomness hacks"05:23
wumpusEliel: well it depends on what you call compromised, many android users have milder and more serious forms of malware on their phone without knowing05:23
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wumpusEliel: ... with different levels of access, e.g. maybe it could access the camera too, or the sd card, but not your application's private key store05:24
wumpussl01: that's creepily centralized05:24
sl01better than random.org w/ no http header check05:25
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wumpusthe server could even target people, e.g. have a if(userid=='crook') return 'predictabelentropy'05:25
sl01obviously i mean itd still be mixed in as they do with random.org, just seems like thatd be a simple improvement to what they already had05:26
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wumpuswell sure it's better than random.org than no http header check, but what isn't... :)05:27
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TaekAssuming transactions were ~500 bytes each, launch a DoS on the transaction pool to push transactions up to 1c each would cost $312,000 per day.21:13
TaekIf I were to instead spend that money on bandwidth and try to do a traditional ddos on the mempool, would I get farther?21:13
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Luke-JrTaek: you mean 1c ea to get confirmed within … how long?21:26
Taekconfirmed before the DoS attack ends. If you're dumping $312,000 per day into fees, you can continuously keep the mempool full of 1c transactions21:27
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Taeks/launch/launching21:30
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