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| kanzure | .title http://empslocal.ex.ac.uk/people/staff/mrwatkin/zeta/unusual.htm | 04:34 |
|---|---|---|
| yoleaux | unusual and physical methods for finding prime numbers | 04:34 |
| nsh | good ol' watkin | 04:37 |
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| kanzure | .title http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/coreutils/2015-05/msg00048.html | 10:46 |
| yoleaux | feature request for coreutils: b2sum | 10:46 |
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| ryan-c | gmaxwell: I don't know if you saw this when it was making the rounds a few weeks ago, but stuffing data into the modulus is also pretty easy: https://rya.nc/cert-tricks.html | 10:57 |
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| zooko | kanzure: why are you looking at that? | 11:05 |
| kanzure | it was easier than linking to your email | 11:07 |
| kanzure | i mean your pmetzger mailing list email | 11:08 |
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| fluffypony | O.o | 11:15 |
| fluffypony | Apple is releasing Swift 2, and open-sourcing it | 11:15 |
| fluffypony | (libs and compiler) | 11:15 |
| fluffypony | and they're releasing it for Linux | 11:16 |
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| fluffypony | what planet am I on. | 11:16 |
| binaryatrocity | source? | 11:16 |
| fluffypony | binaryatrocity: I'm watching WWDC | 11:16 |
| binaryatrocity | ahh, nice | 11:16 |
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| zooko | fluffypony: interesting! | 11:35 |
| zooko | fluffypony: I'm still rooting for Rust though. | 11:35 |
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| fluffypony | zooko: also, it's just a surprising / unexpected move | 11:36 |
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| zooko | Yeah! | 11:36 |
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| zooko | I'm glad of it both for itself and because it will push Rust. :-) | 11:37 |
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| nsh | -- | 13:59 |
| nsh | Looking at the fully factored private keys, none of them were factored by a simple large shared prime. Instead, we typically found one or more small factors. After the first results, we started running trial division by the first 20 million primes. This resulted in a number of new factors. We then took the residues of the hundred or so moduli with one or more small factors, and applied elliptic curve factorisation à la Lenstra (we used the Zimmerman et | 13:59 |
| nsh | al implementation). This has the specificity of finding the small factors first. So far 12 keys have succumbed to this method (that is, the remaining residue passes the Miller-Rabin primality test, so is almost certainly prime). | 13:59 |
| nsh | -- http://cryptosense.com/batch-gcding-github-ssh-keys/ | 13:59 |
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| kanzure | 19:49 <maaku> kanzure: somewhat emberassing, but the only one here with a copy of Greg's slides is greg, and he's currently presenting them | 20:01 |
| kanzure | 19:49 <maaku> we'd like to post them to #bitcoin-wizards | 20:01 |
| kanzure | https://people.xiph.org/~greg/blockstream.gmaxwell.elements.talk.060815.pdf | 20:01 |
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| Taek | It would be interesting for the first proof-of-concept sidechain to have 20mb blocks | 20:10 |
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| sipa | Taek: its performance characteristics are very different from Bitcoin's; it wouldn't offer a useful comparison | 20:11 |
| Taek | I am misunderstanding something then. (slide 10/34). I thought sidechains were essentially alternate blockchains that used the bitcoin currency | 20:12 |
| sipa | they are | 20:12 |
| Taek | if it's nearly an exact fork, why would the performance characteristics be 'very different'? | 20:13 |
| sipa | but Elements Alpha (which Greg is presenting) has very different validation rules than Bitcoin itself, so things like propagation/validation time, and cost for running a full node are not comparable to Bitcoin | 20:13 |
| gwillen | Taek: a sidechain won't have the same volume of users, miners, transactions, etc. as bitcoin itself | 20:13 |
| gwillen | so the performance characteristics won't necessarily be similar | 20:14 |
| Taek | gwillen: that is true, but it would relieve political pressure I believe. Perhaps it wouldn't. sipa: hadn't gotten that far, is EA the cryptosystem greg mentioned earlier this week? | 20:15 |
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| sipa | yes | 20:17 |
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| sipa | Taek: how would it relieve political pressure? | 20:19 |
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| Taek | currently, many people believe that the only way Bitcoin is going to survive is by increasing the block size to 20mb. With a sidechain implementation that's identical to bitcoin, they can move their coins to a blockchain with more room without forking the original network. | 20:20 |
| Taek | if recognizing this new chain just requires a client update by the merchants, it's no more difficult to implement than a hardfork | 20:21 |
| sipa | Taek: that's in no way a better solution than just increasing Bitcoin's block size | 20:21 |
| Taek | (*for the merchants) | 20:21 |
| Taek | sipa: it leaves the old 1mb chain intact, not everybody has to switch to the new chain if they don't like the consequences | 20:22 |
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| sipa | If people expect that resulting sidechain to be actually usable, ~everyone will need to validate it just the same as they have to validate Bitcoin, and it comes at a huge security cost. | 20:22 |
| Taek | merchants could choose to only accept the 1mb coins | 20:22 |
| sipa | and they'll lose every customer | 20:23 |
| Taek | it also would not seem so difficult for merchants to accept both, then users who prefer the 1mb could keep using their 1mb coins | 20:23 |
| sipa | I agree it has significantly lower risk, but massive security trade-off. | 20:23 |
| sipa | our purpose with sidechains is unlocking experimentation with new technology | 20:24 |
| sipa | it's not a substitute for a stable main chain | 20:24 |
| Taek | security tradeoff as in mining security, or another type of security? | 20:25 |
| sipa | sidechains transfer only has SPV security | 20:25 |
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| maaku | A pre-recorded version of Greg's talk : https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/blkstrm/video/elements-gmaxwell.mp4 | 20:26 |
| Taek | I grok | 20:27 |
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| Taek | Using homorphic encryption to hide transfer amounts is very interesting | 20:28 |
| moa | elements has implemented homomorphic encryption? | 20:29 |
| sipa | Yup. | 20:29 |
| moa | !!! wut | 20:29 |
| gribble | Error: "!!" is not a valid command. | 20:29 |
| Taek | (wait this is all implemented???) | 20:29 |
| moa | yous guise been busy | 20:29 |
| sipa | Taek: yes | 20:29 |
| Taek | wow! congrats | 20:29 |
| sipa | I'm not sure homomorphic encryption is the correct term, though. But yes, EA has a feature called Confidential Transactions, which blind the amounts transferred, while retaining cryptographic proofs that the values add up. | 20:30 |
| sipa | Downside: ~kilobytes per output, and significantly slower to validate | 20:31 |
| sipa | These don't go into the UTXO set, though. | 20:32 |
| moa | makes sense | 20:33 |
| gwillen | it's not fully-homomorphic, but it allows homomorphic addition of values | 20:34 |
| gwillen | so you can add blinded values and get blinded results | 20:34 |
| sipa | ironically, the hardest part of confidential values is guaranteeing that no negative amounts were used | 20:35 |
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| moa | yeah I got that partial homomorphic ... but good enough for what we want to do, nice job | 20:36 |
| moa | sipa: why's that, the negative sign bit handling? | 20:37 |
| sipa | moa: because you could cancel out things (have a 1 BTC inputs, and a 3 BTC + -2 BTC output... and never reveal the -2 BTC one) | 20:38 |
| sipa | https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements | 20:38 |
| sipa | source code public :) | 20:38 |
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| Taek | so, the idea is to test new concepts in a sidechain, and then potentially implement them in the main chain after they've been battle-hardened in a less-critical economy? | 20:40 |
| moa | sipa: so elements is a fork of Core it looks like, does the depends build work? | 20:41 |
| sipa | moa: unlikely | 20:42 |
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| moa | Euclids elements? | 20:50 |
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| maaku | Taek: maybe, in the very very long term | 20:58 |
| maaku | for now, experiment | 20:58 |
| maaku | moa: frankly a lot of the integration is alpha quality | 20:59 |
| maaku | (groan) | 20:59 |
| moa | it built fine here | 20:59 |
| moa | not sure what I built though :) | 20:59 |
| maaku | well i hope it does build! but if 'make check' works it's because we commented out a bunch of tests ;) | 20:59 |
| maaku | this isn't a polished product. it is an opening up of development into an open source project that we hope will be larger than ourselves | 21:00 |
| moa | yeah i see that | 21:00 |
| maaku | moa: there should be a readme in the root directory | 21:00 |
| morcos | at what point is it forked from Core? 0.10? | 21:01 |
| moa | so there is a chain running on port 18332? | 21:01 |
| maaku | morcos: somewhere between 0.10 and 0.11. getting it rebased to 0.11 is a near-term thing to do | 21:01 |
| maaku | moa that's testnet3's rpc port, which the alpha sidechain connects to to perform verification | 21:02 |
| moa | ah ok | 21:02 |
| maaku | alpha p2p port is 4242, rpc port 4241 | 21:02 |
| moa | how is testnet3 significantly different to testnet? | 21:02 |
| maaku | moa it is bitcoin testnet | 21:02 |
| maaku | bitcoin testnet has been reset twice in the past, the current version is 3 | 21:03 |
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| morcos | this looks like a lot of fantastic work. congratulations guys! i look forward to diving in when i can get back in front of a computer. | 21:06 |
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| kanzure | transcript http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-sidechains-elements/ | 22:11 |
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| nsh | ty kanzure | 22:15 |
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| Luke-Jr | kanzure: do you have a transcript of the live one too that we can diff? <.< | 22:17 |
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| kanzure | Luke-Jr: i was not in the audience | 22:23 |
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| kanzure | also, for future reference, if you can get him to speak more like BlueMatt, it's way easier on my hands | 22:23 |
| kanzure | really- this was practically effortless to type by comparison http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2015/matt-corallo-sidechains/ | 22:24 |
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| Luke-Jr | kanzure: in what way? (not that I have much influence on how gmaxwell speaks :p) | 22:26 |
| kanzure | i have no idea, i wish i knew | 22:26 |
| kanzure | also, rpcblockchainexplorer links are still broken https://alpha-explorer.elementsproject.org/block/8e7533b7dff7879809dc246d7166e52f8c35437de9e081da0e1a122e161b3e60 | 22:26 |
| amiller | is there a clear figure on what's the size of these transactions? | 22:27 |
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| kanzure | amiller: in the transcript search for "kilobytes" | 22:29 |
| amiller | "2.5 kilobytes" | 22:30 |
| kanzure | well, for zero-knowledge range proofs | 22:30 |
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| sipa | amiller: the ouputs need a range proof, which is several kilobytes in size, depending on the log of the number of possible range values | 22:50 |
| sipa | amiller: 2.5 kb for 32-bit | 22:50 |
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| amiller | i see.... i guess it could go down very low if i only want to like, hide my most significant few bits or something | 22:50 |
| sipa | indeed | 22:51 |
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| sipa | the implementation supports up to 64-bit, though there is a consensus limit to 52 bits | 22:53 |
| Luke-Jr | kanzure: unfortunately, I've no clue how that is supposed to be setup; I think warren would be the one to poke | 22:53 |
| sipa | indeed, it is known to be broken currently | 22:54 |
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| kanzure | well let me know if you have any errors and i can look at those if you post them in the issue tracker | 22:54 |
| * kanzure proceeds to sleep with one eye open | 22:54 | |
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| sipa | amiller: also, 80% of the range proof data size can be used as private communication channel between sender and receiver | 22:55 |
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| amiller | sipa, i missed that part.... so even with a 32-bit range is the on-chain proof size is 2.5kb or less? | 22:57 |
| sipa | the on-chain proof for 32-bit is 2.5 kn | 22:57 |
| sipa | kb | 22:57 |
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| sipa | 2kb of which can be used to transfer information from sender to recwiver, though | 22:57 |
| sipa | (you'll need to ask gmaxwell for details here, i don't know how that works) | 22:58 |
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