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| waxwing | so would it be fair to say that this: H = to_point(SHA256(ENCODE(G))) is basically functioning as a NUMS ? | 04:51 |
|---|---|---|
| sipa | yes | 04:58 |
| sipa | any nums used as X ciordinate would do | 04:58 |
| waxwing | or maybe satoshi deliberately chose secp256k1 and sha256 for this purpose :)) | 04:59 |
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| nsh | NUMS? | 05:58 |
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| waxwing | nsh: nothing up my sleeve number | 06:01 |
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| nsh | ah, right | 06:04 |
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| waxwing | "In this scheme, rather than having kG = sG + exG" <-- from 2.2 of borromean paper, shouldn't that be minus? | 10:34 |
| andytoshi | waxwing: they are equivalent | 10:34 |
| andytoshi | only rule is that it should be consistent through the whole paper.. | 10:34 |
| waxwing | :) | 10:34 |
| andytoshi | damn, i think that paragraph is inconsistent with the rest of the paper tho :/ | 10:35 |
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| waxwing | the hobgoblin of little minds | 10:36 |
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| andytoshi | thx for reading so carefully, i fixed it locally, it will appear in the next public push | 10:40 |
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| kanzure | http://blog.silentsignal.eu/2015/06/10/poisonous-md5-wolves-among-the-sheep/ | 11:36 |
| kanzure | https://securelist.com/files/2015/06/The_Mystery_of_Duqu_2_0_a_sophisticated_cyberespionage_actor_returns.pdf | 11:37 |
| narwh4l | "mystery: | 11:38 |
| narwh4l | Duqu is definitely NSA, I think it was mentioned in one of the public docs | 11:38 |
| narwh4l | Anyway, ruskies will always be decent hackers and I'm glad Kaspersky is around | 11:39 |
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| shen_noe | gmaxwell, how does your to_point function work? https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt | 13:15 |
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| sipa | shen_noe: interpret the argument as serialized X coordinate, compute the corresponding even Y coordinate to make it lie on the curve, and return the resulting point | 13:16 |
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| shen_noe | ahh, ok that makes more sense than to_point = take an integer and multiply it by the basepoint | 13:18 |
| shen_noe | lol | 13:18 |
| gmaxwell | I updated the text file to clarify this. | 13:20 |
| shen_noe | thanks, it was probably clear enough I was just thinking different ways to get H from a hash | 13:22 |
| gmaxwell | shen_noe: you're the second person who'd raised the concern, in fact. and the xG approach is the one thing that you cannot do or it totally breaks the security of the scheme. :) | 13:23 |
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| wallet42 | sipa: does every X has a Y in the curve order? | 13:49 |
| sipa | no, 1 in 2 | 13:50 |
| sipa | because every point has a negation which has the same X but opposite Y | 13:50 |
| sipa | and there are around 2^256 coordinates and around 2^256 points | 13:50 |
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| shen_noe | if I combine ct and coinjoin / coinswap in one transaction, does each input need its own ring sig to obscure the amount? | 14:07 |
| sipa | ring signatures are not used to obscure the amounts; pedersen commitments are used for that | 14:08 |
| sipa | the ring signatures are used internally in the range proof of each output, to prove that the value is not negative | 14:08 |
| sipa | this is independent of coinjoin or anything; every confidential output needs a range proof | 14:08 |
| shen_noe | so one output = one ring sig? | 14:10 |
| sipa | there is one ring singature per *bit* in the range proof | 14:11 |
| sipa | so there are typically 32 per confidential output | 14:11 |
| sipa | though all ring signatures are combined as a single borromean ring signature | 14:11 |
| shen_noe | sipa thanks for the explanation | 14:12 |
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| shen_noe | ahh... what I meant about each input in the coinjoin, actually was thinking of something like a darkcoin setup where coinjoin is accomplished roughly by sending your coins to a masternode, and then getting them back, so transaction sent to the masternode would have one ring sig | 14:21 |
| sipa | shen_noe: the *outputs* have ring sigs, not the transactions | 14:22 |
| sipa | coinjoin just combines multiple outputs and inputs from different participants | 14:22 |
| sipa | everyone just create their inputs and outputs (with blinded values and range proofs), and then they get combined, and then everyone signs off on the resulting combined transactions | 14:23 |
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| shen_noe | output is part of the transaction no? I was thinking of a scenario where coins are periodically mixed | 14:24 |
| sipa | yes | 14:25 |
| sipa | the scenario doesn't matter | 14:25 |
| sipa | you have a bunch of people who create non-signed transactions, each with inputs and outputs | 14:26 |
| sipa | coinjoin creates a joint non-signed transactions with all inputs from everyone and all outputs from everyone | 14:26 |
| shen_noe | well, it kind of does, how many coinjoins transactions do I have to do to be anonymous | 14:26 |
| sipa | then everyone signs off on the results | 14:26 |
| sipa | i think you're confused | 14:27 |
| shen_noe | say I have to do 1 coinjoin every 24 hours | 14:27 |
| sipa | in the outputs of the to-be-coinjoined-transactions you create, you already have range proogs | 14:28 |
| sipa | coinjoin does not touch them | 14:28 |
| sipa | the whole question is orthogonal to coinjoin | 14:28 |
| sipa | does every participant need its own ring rig? yes, and even one per bit of the range proof in each of the outputs created by each of the participants | 14:29 |
| shen_noe | right, I get that it's orthogonal to coinjoin.. I'm just wondering for example, if I implement ct in dash/dark and my coins are periodically sent to a masternode.. now ct adds a bit of space, and all these mixing transactions now each have a ring sig | 14:31 |
| sipa | the size is 2.5 kilobytes per output | 14:32 |
| sipa | doesn't matter whether those outputs are touched by coinjoin or not | 14:32 |
| shen_noe | so e.g. 2 to 8 rounds of mixing times 2.5 kb per each mix | 14:34 |
| shen_noe | accumulated blockchain size is 2 to 8 x 2.5 kb? | 14:34 |
| sipa | i think you're confused | 14:35 |
| shen_noe | possibly | 14:36 |
| * shen_noe goes to read more | 14:36 | |
| sipa | coinjoin does not create transactions | 14:36 |
| sipa | maybe you have some higher level mixing on top | 14:36 |
| sipa | coinjoin just joins multiple transactions together to obscure which inputs and outputs are related | 14:36 |
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| shen_noe | yes, that's what I'm thinking of ofc coinjoin does not creeate transactions | 14:37 |
| shen_noe | mixing on top is what I mean here | 14:37 |
| sipa | then do your homework :) | 14:37 |
| shen_noe | (since that's where I've seen coinjoin in the wild) | 14:37 |
| sipa | confidential transactions have 2.5 kilobyte per output, regardless of where that output came from | 14:38 |
| shen_noe | yep. | 14:38 |
| shen_noe | so know, let's suppose I implement a privacy coin | 14:38 |
| shen_noe | ofc I could let people manually coinjoin | 14:39 |
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| shen_noe | but that might be inconvenient for them | 14:39 |
| shen_noe | so now I do masternodes or whatever, mixing on top (accomplished via some coinjoin's / coinswaps whatever) | 14:39 |
| shen_noe | now each mix the masternodes do has 2.5 kb per output | 14:40 |
| sipa | no time for this now, sorry | 14:40 |
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| shen_noe | thx for discussion | 14:40 |
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| gmaxwell | 14:12 < sipa> there is one ring singature per *bit* in the range proof | 14:50 |
| gmaxwell | well technically one ring per pair of bits. :) | 14:50 |
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| andytoshi | shen_noe: i can take over from sipa if you have more questions, tho i don't have a lot of time.. | 15:53 |
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| andytoshi | oh, never mind, i hadn't read to the bottom :) no darkcoin stuff please, check out https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/29473 for discussion of anonymity tech | 15:54 |
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